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MC's thoughts on current balance whining

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Grixx
Profile Joined March 2013
Belgium26 Posts
February 15 2014 12:25 GMT
#1
With the current state of the game and forums being flooded with people whining about Protoss (we've all seen twitch chat).

The BossToss himself gave his thoughts, I found this on Reddit and think that MC has a good point about map inbalance instead of certain matchups (PvT in general).

All credit goes to Semmo_ as he translated and posted it.

+ Show Spoiler +
Source: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=4823530&search=3&search_pos=&q=

ํ”„๋กœํ† ์Šค๊ฐ€ ํ•˜๋„ ์‚ฌ๊ธฐ๋ผ๋Š”๊ธ€์ด ๋งŽ์•„์„œ ์˜ฌ๋ ค๋ด…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค

I'm posting this because I see too many people saying that Protoss is imba.

ํ”„๋กœํ† ์Šค vs ์ €๊ทธ = 5:5 ์ด๊ฑด ์ง„์งœ 5:5์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค ๋งตํƒ“์ด๊ณ  ๋ญ๊ณ  ๋‹ค ๋นผ๊ณ 

PvZ = 50/50. Really 50/50. Don't blame maps or whatever...

์ง€๋Š”์‚ฌ๋žŒ์ด ๋ชปํ•˜๋Š”๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค ์ง„์งœ ์ง€๊ธˆ ์ง•์ง•๋Œ€๋Š” ์ €๊ทธ๋“ค์€ ์–‘์‹ฌ๋„์—†๋Š”๊ฑฐ์ž„

The worse player loses. Zergs that whine really don't have any shame.

ํ”„๋กœํ† ์Šค vs ํ…Œ๋ž€ = ์™œ ํ”„ํ…Œ์ „์ด ๋ฒจ๋ถ•๋œ์ง€ ์ด์œ ๋ฅผ ๋ง์”€๋“œ๋ฆด๊ฒŒ์š” ์ง„์งœ ๋ฐธ๋Ÿฐ์Šค์ƒ์œผ๋ก  ์•„๋ฌด ๋ฌธ์ œ๊ฐ€์—†๊ฑฐ๋“ ์š”?

PvT = I'll tell you why PvT is so imbalanced. In terms of game balance, there's no problem, right?

๊ทผ๋ฐ ์ง€๊ธˆ ๋ฆฌ๊ทธ๋งต ๋ž˜๋”๋งต์ด ํ”„ํ…Œ์ „์—์„œ ํ”„๋กœํ† ์Šค๊ฐ€ 7:3์œผ๋กœ ์œ ๋ฆฌํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค ์ง„์งœ ํ…Œ๋ž€์ด ์•”์šธํ• ์ •๋„๋กœ

But in ladder maps Protoss is 70/30 vs Terran. It's really depressing for Terran.

์™œ๋ƒ? ์ ๋ฉธ์ถ”์ ์ž๊ฐ€ ๊ฐ•๋ ฅํ•œ๋งต์ด 4๊ฐœ๋‚˜์žˆ๊ธฐ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ ๋‹ค์ด๋‹ฌ๋กœ์Šค ํ—ค๋น„๋ ˆ์ธ ์—ฐ์ˆ˜ ํด๋ผ๋‚˜์ดํŠธ

Why? It's because we have 4 maps where Blink Stalkers are very strong in. Daedalus, Heavy Rain, Yeonsu, Polar Night

๊ฑฐ๊ธฐ์— ์šด์˜ํ• ๋•Œ ์ข‹์€ ์•Œํ„ฐ์ง๊นŒ์ง€ ์—ญ๋Œ€ ์ตœ๊ณ  ํ”„๋กœํ† ์Šค๊ฐ€ ํ…Œ๋ž€์— ๊ฐ•ํ•œ๋งต๋“ค ํˆฌ์„ฑ

After that we have Alterzim which is one of the most favorable map for Protoss vs Terran.

๊ทธ๋‚˜๋งˆ 5:5์ธ ํ”„๋กœ์ŠคํŠธ์—์„  ํ…Œ๋ž€๋“ค ์Šน๋ฅ ์ด ๊ดœ์ฐฎ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค

If you look at Frost, it's 50/50. Terran have an ok time on this map.

์ด๊ฑด ๋ฐธ๋Ÿฐ์Šคํƒ“์ด์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ ๋งต์ด ํ† ์Šค๋Œ€ํ…Œ๋ž€์—์„œ ํ† ์Šค๊ฐ€ ๋„ˆ๋ฌด ์ข‹์„๋ฟ์ด๊ณ 

This is not about game balance, the maps for PvT is just too good for Protoss

์ „๊นŒ์ง€ ๊ธฐ๊ฐ‘๋ณ‘๋“œ๋ž์ด๋„ค ๋งˆ์ธ๋“œ๋ž์ด๋„ค ํ•œ๋ฒˆ ๋“œ๋ž๋‹นํ•˜๋ฉด ํ™• ๊ธฐ์šธ๋˜ ํ”„ํ…Œ์ „์ด ๋‘๊ฐ€์ง€๊ฐ€ ๋„ˆํ”„ ๋‹นํ•˜๋ฉด์„œ

Before, Hellbat Drops and Mine Drops that swayed the game in PvT both got nerfed.

ํ† ์Šค๊ฐ€ ๋ฌด๋‚œํ•˜๊ฒŒ ํ˜๋Ÿฌ๊ฐ€ ์Šน๋ฆฌ๋ฅผ ๊ฐ€์ ธ๊ฐ€๋Š” ๋ชจ์Šต์ด ์ž๋‚ ์ด๋‚˜ ์ง€๊ธˆ์ด๋‚˜ ๋ณ„๋ฐ˜ ๋‹ค๋ฅผ๊ป€ ์—†์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.

Now games where protoss easily masses up the composition without deterrence is pretty similar like WoL.

์ง„์งœ ํ”„๋กœ๋˜์„œ ๋ฐธ๋Ÿฐ์Šค ์ง•์ง• ์ด๋Ÿฐ๊ฑฐ ๊ฐ™์ด ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ ๋‚˜๋ˆ„๊ณ  ํ•˜๊ณ  ์‹ถ์ง€์•Š์•˜๋Š”๋ฐ

I really didn't want to talk about balance whine because I'm a pro player, but

ํ”„๋กœํ† ์Šค ๊ฒŒ์ด๋จธ๋“ค์€ ๋ญ ๋…ธ๋ ฅ๋„์•ˆํ•˜๊ณ  ์ข…๋นจ๋กœ ๋งจ๋‚  ์ด๊ธฐ๋Š”๊ฑฐ์ฒ˜๋Ÿผ ์• ๊ธฐํ•˜๋‹ˆ๊นŒ

People are saying that protoss players don't even try hard and win due to the race

๋‚ด๊ฐ€ ์„ ๋ฐฐ์ž…์žฅ์œผ๋กœ์จ ์• ๋“ค์ด ์•ˆํƒ€๊น๊ณ  ๋ถ„ํ†ต์ด ํ„ฐ์ ธ์„œ ์ ์–ด๋ด…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค

As a veteran, I feel bad for players that get all the hate and feel angry about it.

์˜ค๋Š˜ ์˜ฌ๋ผ๊ฐ„ ์ฃผ์„ฑ์šฑ ์กฐ์„ฑํ˜ธ๋Š” ์ผ์ฃผ์ผ๋‚ด๋‚ด ๋†€๋‹ค๊ฐ€ ํ™”ํˆฌ์ณ์„œ 16๊ฐ• ๋”ด๊ฒƒ๋„ ์•„๋‹ˆ๊ณ 

Zest and Trap didn't go to ro16 after they were fooling around for a week.

๋ˆ„๊ตฌ๋ณด๋‹ค ๋…ธ๋ ฅ ๋งŽ์ดํ–ˆ์„์ˆ˜๋„์žˆ๋Š”๋ฐ ๋ฌด์Šจ ์ข…๋นจ์ด๋‹ˆ ์–ด์ฉŒ๋‹ˆ๋กœ ์„ ์ˆ˜๋Š” ํ„ํ•˜ ์•ˆํ•˜์…จ์Œ ์ข‹๊ฒ ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค

They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying that it's "the power of protoss".

์ œ๊ฐ€ ๋ณผ๋•Œ ์˜ค๋Š˜ ๋‘ ํ† ์Šค๋Š” ์ •๋ง Well play ์ž˜ํ•ด์„œ ์˜ฌ๋ผ๊ฐ„๊ฑฐ๊ณ  ํ”„๋กœ๊ฒŒ์ด๋จธ๋กœ์จ ๋นŒ๋“œ ์ „๋žต ์šด์˜ ๋‹ค ์ž˜ ๋ฐฐ์› ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค

In my eyes, the two Tosses played well and that's why they went through. As progamers they really learnt builds and strategies well.

๊ธ€๊ณ  ๊ด‘์ž๊ณผ์ถฉ์ „ ๋„ˆํ”„ํ•˜๋ผ๋Š” ๊ธ€์ด ๋งŽ์ด ๋ณด์ด๋Š”๋ฐ ๊ด‘์ž๊ณผ ๋„ˆํ”„ํ•˜๋ฉด ์ €๊ทธ ํ…Œ๋ž€๋ณด๋‹ค ํ”„ํ”„์ „์ด ์ฐจ๊ด€ํŒ๋ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.

Also I see a lot of talk about nerfing Photon Overcharge but if we nerf that PvP gets fucked.

DK๋‹˜๋„ ๊ทธ๊ฑฐ ์•Œ๊ณ  ๋„ˆํ”„๋ชปํ•˜๋Š”๊ฑฐ๊ตฌ์š” ์‹œ๊ฐ„์™œ๊ณก์€ 75๋งˆ๋‚˜์— ๋น„ํ•ด ๋„ˆ๋ฌด ์ข‹์•„์„œ ์ €๋„ ๋„ˆํ”„ ์ž˜๋˜์—ˆ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.

DK-nim also knows this and this is why he isn't nerfing it. Time Warp was a good ability for only 75 energy and I'm glad it got nerfed.

ํ•œ๋ฒˆ ๋ฐธ๋Ÿฐ์‹ฑํŒจ์น˜์—†์ด ๋งต๋งŒ ๋ฐ”๋€Œ์–ด๋„ ํ”„ํ…Œ์ „ ์ถฉ๋ถ„ํžˆ 5:5๋ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.

With no balancing, just a change of maps will bring a 50/50 in PvT.

์†”์งํžˆ ๋ฐธ๋Ÿฐ์Šค๋ณด๋‹ค ๋งต๋•Œ๋ฌธ์— ํ…Œ๋ž€์ด 3๋ช…์˜ฌ๋ผ์™”๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.

I think it was maps why only 3 terrans came up.

ํ•œ๋ฒˆ ์ž˜ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด๋ณด์„ธ์š” ์ „์‹œ์ฆŒ์—๋„ ๋˜‘๊ฐ™์€ ๋ฐธ๋Ÿฐ์‹ฑ์ด์—ˆ๋Š”๋ฐ ๋งต๋ฐ”๋€Œ๊ธฐ์ „์— ํ…Œ๋ž€์ด ํ† ์Šค์—๊ฒŒ ์•ฝ์„ธ์˜€๋Š”์ง€๋ฅผ

Think about it, last season had the same balancing, but before the map changes was terran really that bad against Protoss?


Only give your thoughts on what MC has to say, take your balance whining to the Blizzard forums and/or appropriate threads.
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
myRZeth
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1047 Posts
February 15 2014 12:27 GMT
#2
I couldn t agree more with MC.
I m ashamed of Zerg players. They re jump into the Protoss OP circlejerk is disgusting.

I think the next season should have their maps tested before being put in to the livegame.
digmouse
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
China6330 Posts
February 15 2014 12:32 GMT
#3
Couldn't agree more, MC got it nailed.
TranslatorIf you want to ask anything about Chinese esports, send me a PM or follow me @nerddigmouse.
Grixx
Profile Joined March 2013
Belgium26 Posts
February 15 2014 12:33 GMT
#4
Yeah I agree, I feel the new maps were put in without much thought/testing put into them. Look at Deadalus Point.. even with the map fix the map is still pretty broken.

The fact that Blink all-ins are good in PvT is almost purely map based. It's so easy to blink in and out of the main base that it's almost a joke. They should invest more time into maps next season
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
coloursheep
Profile Joined May 2011
China497 Posts
February 15 2014 12:35 GMT
#5
I like the idea of MC as a kind of Starcraft 2 elder statesman, telling all these young buck's what's what.
Parcelleus
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia1662 Posts
February 15 2014 12:38 GMT
#6
fuck yeah

MC MC ALWAYS MC !!! xD
*burp*
DiMano
Profile Joined July 2011
Korea (South)2066 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-15 12:43:01
February 15 2014 12:42 GMT
#7
I am sad that this post will not stop hundred of idiots keep whining
ACrow
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6583 Posts
February 15 2014 12:44 GMT
#8
This is way too reasonable, if you can blame your own bad play on the power of protoss, you don't need to work on yourself. That way you can keep telling yourself that it's all the race and not the skill.
Get off my lawn, young punks
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
February 15 2014 12:45 GMT
#9
thread title is cool. Thanks for the share. It is a scary thought that they might balance Protoss around the current maps. But I guess that is also a way to keep the map pool fresh.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
February 15 2014 12:52 GMT
#10
I'm posting this because I see too many people saying Zerg is imba.
ZvP = 50/50. Really 50/50. Don't blame maps or whateverโ€ฆ
The worse player loses. Protoss that whine really don't have any shame.
ZvT = I'll tell you why ZvT is so imbalanced. In terms of game balance, there's no problem, right?
But in ladder maps Zerg is 65/35 vs Terran. It's really depressing for Terran.
Why? It's because we have 4 maps where Brood lords are very strong. Daybreak, Akilon Wastes, Entombed Valley, Antiga.
After that we have Cloud Kingdom which is one of the most favourable map for Zerg vs Terran.
If you look at Whirlwind, it's 50/50. Terran have an ok time on this map.
This is not about game balance, the maps for ZvT is just too good for Zerg.
Before, Hellions and Ghost Snipes that swayed the game in ZvT both got nerfed.
Now games where zergs easily masses up the composition without deterrence is here.
I really didn't want to talk about balance whine because I'm a pro player, but
People are saying that zerg players don't even try hard and win due to the race
As a veteran, I feel bad for players that get all the hate and feel angry about it.
Sniper and RorO didn't win GSL after they were fooling around for a week.
They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying they were "patch zergs".
In my eyes, the two Zergs played well and that's why they went through. As programers they really learnt how to build infests and cast fungals well.
Also I see a lot of talk about nerfing Fungal but if we nerf that Zerg gets fucked.
DK-nim also knows this and this is why he isn't nerfing it. Infested Terran was a good ability for 25 energy and I'm glad it got nerfed.
With no balancing, just a change of maps will bring 50/50 in ZvT.
I think it was maps why Zergs won last GSLs.
Think about it, last season had the same balancing, but before the map changes was terran really that bad against Zerg?
Nimix
Profile Joined October 2011
France1809 Posts
February 15 2014 12:52 GMT
#11
Yeah I guess he's kind of right. I don't like some other things about protoss, but if they made blink so that it couldn't jump up double cliffs (like reapers), and balanced maps around that, it would already help a ton. Blink is indeed what allows protoss to apply pressure early and leave terran guessing while teching and expanding freely..
HolydaKing
Profile Joined February 2010
21254 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-15 12:55:08
February 15 2014 12:53 GMT
#12
I don't think many people are whining about Protoss being too strong vs Zerg anyway. In contrary, lots of people are concerned about swarm hosts being too strong, but I think it's fine (but boring to watch).

Most whining is coming from PvT being imba as MC descibed. I mean, he said it's only the maps favouring Protoss and blink all ins, but still... as long as the maps are the problem and being used you can just say PvT is imba cause there is no way for Terran players to veto all the imba maps and thus have to live with it, even if the game isn't imba on fair maps (which I don't know, storm + colossi late game looks so unbeatable in hands of good players).
Arceus
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Vietnam8333 Posts
February 15 2014 12:54 GMT
#13
too bad it will probably take us 10 more months to get rid of all these maps. IMO only Frost/Habitation deserves to stay till the end of the year, Heavy Rain might stay too as it usually delivers great games, plz add King Sejong Station btw
Faust852
Profile Joined February 2012
Luxembourg4004 Posts
February 15 2014 12:56 GMT
#14
On February 15 2014 21:52 TheDwf wrote:
I'm posting this because I see too many people saying Zerg is imba.
ZvP = 50/50. Really 50/50. Don't blame maps or whateverโ€ฆ
The worse player loses. Protoss that whine really don't have any shame.
ZvT = I'll tell you why ZvT is so imbalanced. In terms of game balance, there's no problem, right?
But in ladder maps Zerg is 65/35 vs Terran. It's really depressing for Terran.
Why? It's because we have 4 maps where Brood lords are very strong. Daybreak, Akilon Wastes, Entombed Valley, Antiga.
After that we have Cloud Kingdom which is one of the most favourable map for Zerg vs Terran.
If you look at Whirlwind, it's 50/50. Terran have an ok time on this map.
This is not about game balance, the maps for ZvT is just too good for Zerg.
Before, Hellions and Ghost Snipes that swayed the game in ZvT both got nerfed.
Now games where zergs easily masses up the composition without deterrence is here.
I really didn't want to talk about balance whine because I'm a pro player, but
People are saying that zerg players don't even try hard and win due to the race
As a veteran, I feel bad for players that get all the hate and feel angry about it.
Sniper and RorO didn't win GSL after they were fooling around for a week.
They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying they were "patch zergs".
In my eyes, the two Zergs played well and that's why they went through. As programers they really learnt how to build infests and cast fungals well.
Also I see a lot of talk about nerfing Fungal but if we nerf that Zerg gets fucked.
DK-nim also knows this and this is why he isn't nerfing it. Infested Terran was a good ability for 25 energy and I'm glad it got nerfed.
With no balancing, just a change of maps will bring 50/50 in ZvT.
I think it was maps why Zergs won last GSLs.
Think about it, last season had the same balancing, but before the map changes was terran really that bad against Zerg?

Holyshit, genius.
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
February 15 2014 13:13 GMT
#15
Hopefully David Kim hears MC before he introduces the mine buff (1-shot probes) and possibly hydralisks.
Swift118
Profile Joined January 2012
United Kingdom335 Posts
February 15 2014 13:15 GMT
#16
Is it just Blink stalkers and the current map pool that is making the match up quite heavily Protoss favoured though... It would be great if MC is correct, but I feel like there is a bit more wrong with that match up then just that.
Ragnarork
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
France9034 Posts
February 15 2014 13:16 GMT
#17
Talking about PvT here (can't say much for PvZ...) I think it's been quite evident for some time now that maps are a problem (everyone talked about Yeonsu, and I remember when TY hold a blink build on it he was seen as some sort of god...).

The really interesting point made by MC here is that if we look at the state of the game before the current map rotation, there was a significant difference. What that should lead to is thinking about the maps before considering a move balance wise.

That's why I think the blink nerf that has been proposed (+5 second cooldown) isn't the right choice. Indeed, it weakens too much one cool ability because on some maps it can be abused...

That's not how it should work in my opinion. The map roster changes, bam, every balance changes become possibly irrelevant, and must be reconsidered. I think maps should change before units/spells/buildings/etc.
LiquipediaWanderer
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
February 15 2014 13:21 GMT
#18
On February 15 2014 22:13 darkness wrote:
Hopefully David Kim hears MC before he introduces the mine buff (1-shot probes) and possibly hydralisks.

Not losing workers to mines is probably the easiest thing in the game to do. It's not like they detonate instantly
Kevin_Sorbo
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada3217 Posts
February 15 2014 13:24 GMT
#19
Im not sure about MC's thoughts.
One thing I know though is that if we wait for Blizzard to fix the map pool, well PvT might be broken for a while.

we need another TL map contest!
The mind is like a parachute, it doesnt work unless its open. - Zappa
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12422 Posts
February 15 2014 13:25 GMT
#20
You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
No will to live, no wish to die
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