Forget the win percentages. Just look at how practically every tournament always seems to have the 60%-70% protoss player base in it. I've been noticing that for a while now. Terran was like that when it was "op". Zerg was like that with BL / Infestor.
Now toss is like that. Its the maps though right?

Chaggi

Korea (South)1936 Posts

February 19 2014 05:08 GMT

#322

I think maps play a big part, but it's not really the end all be all. From what I see, Protoss's power comes mainly from the Terran not knowing what the hell is coming. It just gets worse on maps with blink because there's ANOTHER super powerful option that can kill you too. Then playing defensive brings a super short midgame, and a late game protoss where the Terran doesn't get that much done = gg

nath

United States1788 Posts

February 19 2014 05:17 GMT

#323

On February 19 2014 14:08 Chaggi wrote:
I think maps play a big part, but it's not really the end all be all. From what I see, Protoss's power comes mainly from the Terran not knowing what the hell is coming. It just gets worse on maps with blink because there's ANOTHER super powerful option that can kill you too. Then playing defensive brings a super short midgame, and a late game protoss where the Terran doesn't get that much done = gg

yeah. i think some tweaks to make terran able to scout and/or defend all the early game options eas(ier) would really really help the MU. terran needs to be able to dictate the tempo midgame otherwise protoss has already won, just a '10 minute death animation for the terran' -NonY

LibertyRises

United States175 Posts

February 19 2014 07:31 GMT

#324

I think the the most impressive thing about protoss players is how creatively they utilize the plethora of viable tech paths they have at their disposal HerO, SoS, MC etc. With too many of these tech paths viable and available they're just picking what to poison us and I can't see the genius in it like before. I get the feeling ANYONE can do it now. I do think they absolutely need to have some op spells and tech units because isn't that supposed to be the point of a highly technologically advanced alien race? I don't mind they have storms that can decimate countless amounts of bio or colossi, or dt's. I don't particularly care either whether or not there's any mirco potential at all in their units. All I care is that I can at the very least identify what the fuck they're doing, early enough to have a chance

Arnold in the movie predator was able to figure out hey, I'm facing a protoss DT in the jungle. Sure he was a human with shitty tech. But you know what? He threw some muddy war paint on, got some pointy sticks and used every boy scout trapping trick in the book to bridge the 'power' gap. Before he knew what was coming, his whole team died, but they eventually were able to make a stand. Blizzard, protoss players, knowledge is power and either we get outright power like beefy units like you guys or we get the knowledge. Somethings gotta give. I prefer the knowledge because terran isn't designed to have uber powerful units in the SC that's a protoss staple.

But the very threat of toss openings mean terrans are camped the fuck out in their base. Two stalkers and MSC with half-wit positioning can deny reaper re entry to keep and eye on tech and scan is the only option. Making DT's cheap mean with the Twilight Council alone both getting blink and or DT's are great GAME ENDING AUTO WIN options if not scouted. Now toss are getting to the point where they're just proxying shit cause they get carte blanche on the map whether they have units or not just because a good terran isn't pushing out unless he knows what's up. They know they have these auto win options to play and they can read terran like an open book because we don't have early aggressive options since there's a MSC. Random shit out on map means you're not scanning shit, and whether you're InnoVation or Flash or joe fucking blow on ladder you don't know what's up until the toss player wants you to know.

So now we're at a point even the GOOD terrans don't know if it's 1 base blink, or DT's, or oracle. Or two base blink. Or two base blink into four stalkers walking around outside your base while you have SCV's off the line to repair and have a shit load of bunkers and units EVERYONE WATCHING THE GAME knows you don't need but you. So, toss drops a third. Usually, by the time the terran realizes the rouse is up storms finished, there's a msc, and counter pushing is a bad option but pretty much the only one since you're economically so far behind. Or as ToD surmised oracle into twilight into blink, into four gate (I haven't see that yet god forbid). Or cancel blink into DT. And that's just twilight tech. Either terran gets scouting options so we can identify, and play defense. Or we get some sort of offensive option that somehow circumvents the existence of the MSC.

Terran has mine drop, banshee, cloaked or uncloaked and they're both defended the same damn way they're not nearly as good as DT's/Oracles. I don't see the need for them to have all the offensive options while feeling so safe and secure with the MSC why can't they have one or the other? Maybe in tournaments terrans need pull an scv early before the depot just to make sure no probe gets out on map AND open reaper lol.

Chaggi

Korea (South)1936 Posts

February 19 2014 07:36 GMT

#325

On February 19 2014 14:17 nath wrote:

Show nested quote +

I honestly think making Protoss harder, even looking harder, would make a LOT of the whining go away. I know for me personally, when I either watch pros, or when I watch my own replays - especially if it's against a Zealot/Templar/Archon all in, I'm just thinking, this is an a-move, while I HAVE to micro. Even now, after talking with friends that play Protoss, watching pros in GSL qualifiers (literally standing behind them), I'm not necessarily sure that Protoss is as hard to play mechanically as Terran. If you watch Zergs in TvZ, it's very easy to see that if they don't micro against mines, they're completely screwed. If they don't control mutas perfectly, they can lose a LOT cause they're so fragile. I don't play Protoss, so I don't know the small nuisances and for me, when I make personal complaints about Protoss on ladder, it's really cause I don't think they're playing the same "hard" game as me. I don't think my views are totally valid or true, especially at the pro level, but if Blizzard can change the perception that Protoss isn't just 1-A, that there is a lot of mechanical difficulty in playing Protoss, I think a lot of the complaints would go away. At least from the lower league players.

ejozl

Denmark3537 Posts

February 19 2014 08:37 GMT

#326

The thing I dislike about the Mothership Core the most is that it's yet another unit that negates the terrain of the map.
Generally in RTS games air units are a lot weaker than the ground units, because they add so much utility, being able to negate high grounds, see high ground or find weakness in the defense, where anti air is missing.
However in SC2 a lot of the air units are very strong, not to mention the transport ships.
There's also a plethora of ground units that can cliff-walk: Colossus, Reaper, Blink.
And so when you make maps with such big mains it favours these kind of units and because it's the main base (early game,) it's more often than not the harass units.
So while Reapers, Blink Stalkers, Oracles, Medivacs, Warp Prism's all are stronger and that's mostly fine. The Mothership Core is just the number one early unit and even accomodate Blink play, which is already strong on these types of maps.
Nerfing the vision will be a step in the right direction, but we need to consider maps before we start to consider nerfing the core unit, because on the flip side, when we start to see some maps go in the opposite direction, e.g bad Blink maps, this kind of play might just get killed off.