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On February 16 2014 01:43 xAdra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 23:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:MC = BossToss = LogicToss? I like that. He's definitely making some really good points. Nowadays, any time any Protoss player wins it's "due to Protoss" rather than "due to skill". Sigh. On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote:
You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that. Absolutely agree. I personally also hate it when the race is overpowered and suddenly everyone playing that race is simply an evil asshole who wants easy wins and is bad at playing video games. Look at shit posts like this: Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 23:42 plogamer wrote:On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote:
You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that. Oh woe is me, the Protoss. What a loss it is I feel, When I think DK will steal - My wins earned like a boss. Note: Protoss players in TL, get over yourself. You are not MC, balance at your level isn't what most reasonable people are complaining about. You want to act like all balance criticism is an attack because of a few assholes? Well, aren't you so wonderful... I despise such attitude the most : "I'm playing the underpowered race, therefore I have the right to act all high and mighty since I'm clearly more skilful than thou." Protoss players don't get to respond, or they're called out even more for daring to speak up in a climate where the race is strong. You can say that you are doing "balance criticism", but really, when it frequently contains words and phrases that continually antagonize the players and even degrade the pro players, what the fuck are you trying to get at? This is an internet forum, and you expect the people to sit back and just take the attacks and agree to all the "easy race" calls. Sure. I think MC is right about the maps being the problem, and I've thought so for quite a while. I've also always agreed with MsC providing far too much a safety net to protoss, and MsC is indeed the ultimate bandaid. It even looks like a bandaid. However, balance problems are NOT a reason to antagonize 1/3 of an internet forum.
actually, 'you' cried more about the 1-1-1. which was arguably more map dependent than the subject(s) of tvp balance whine these days. terran players didn't get to respond, or they were called out even more for daring to speak up in a climate where the race is strong. Balance problems are NOT a reason to antagonize 1/3 of an internet forum 
the fact that the protoss legion of TL jumps so hard and so defensively onto threads like this reflects more on their own opinion than the invalidity of counter-arguments. 'you' wont let it even be a discussion. all 'you' do is shut down the arguments of the vocal minority and not the actual tvp balance concerns carefully thought out by great terran players on the board (thedwf comes to mind)
mc has done interviews like this before and been 100% self-serving. nothing different here. blaming the maps sounds like a good way of tackling the 'real problem' but its not the entire problem.
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Reducing cliff area also reduces Terran's ability to scout early game.
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On February 17 2014 18:39 WifWaf wrote:
Reducing cliff area also reduces Terran's ability to scout early game.
Yep I agree, the first step to balance map out is to totally get rid of the high cliff. This kind of map object is super good for blink but bad for reapers. More void near main base but no high cliff and more low cliff.
This is why I think for example heavy rain is much more viable kind of maps that deadalus. In deadalus the scouting is nearly impossible. In heavy rain you can scout everything with good micro.
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About PvZ, in my opinion it is true that it is statistically balanced right now, but only because SwarmHost (boring) play is very strong, it is like the balance of ZvP in WoL where the imbalanced of Infestor/BL was counter by the imbalanced of the immo/sentry all in.
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how come we never see Protoss spliting their units to avoid emps? Maybe we should add a stun duration to emp so Protoss will.
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On February 17 2014 22:59 Loccstana wrote:
how come we never see Protoss spliting their units to avoid emps? Maybe we should add a stun duration to emp so Protoss will.
they don't need to
Just like Protoss didn't really put Templars in WP to storm armies regularly, yet until the ghost patch, we've been seeing it more and more
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On February 17 2014 22:59 Loccstana wrote:
how come we never see Protoss spliting their units to avoid emps? Maybe we should add a stun duration to emp so Protoss will.
Never? Hero was doing it constantly against Polt, and some players like Dear just do it all the time as a rule.
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On February 17 2014 08:45 Parcelleus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 08:31 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 02:06 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote:
For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time. The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss. Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes. IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach. And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past. Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year. Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)? Get your critical thinking cap on. That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting. As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role. ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss. Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
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I agree with MC that there needs to be a stronger emphasis at looking at map balance rather than racial balance when it comes to looking to equalize the game.
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I agree with MC with the idea that balance whining never won anyone a game or event. It's good to point out areas of the game that may be imbalanced, but dwelling on it only hurts the game and your own play. It's like Jeadong said, the thoughts of imbalance will do more damage to your play than the imbalance itself. Hopefully the new patches will give Terran the tools to get back on equal footing wih Protoss.
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On February 17 2014 23:17 Frex wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 08:45 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 08:31 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 02:06 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote:
For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time. The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss. Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes. IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach. And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past. Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year. Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)? Get your critical thinking cap on. That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting. As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role. ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss. Get your reality cap on. PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only. What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
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On February 18 2014 00:34 Parcelleus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 23:17 Frex wrote:On February 17 2014 08:45 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 08:31 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 02:06 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote:
For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time. The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss. Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes. IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach. And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past. Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year. Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)? Get your critical thinking cap on. That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting. As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role. ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss. Get your reality cap on. PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only. What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne? Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain. Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world. Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
You remind me of the clowns who when Terran was dominating sc2 would point to Fruitdealer and Nestea as sole proof of why there was no balance issues (in their own delusional or clueless minds) . Some players can play out of their skin and overcome imbalance or maybe some players find some way to exploit the current meta for a tournie or two, this does not mean all is fine if the person evaluating is not biased or clueless.
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On February 18 2014 00:34 Parcelleus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 23:17 Frex wrote:On February 17 2014 08:45 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 08:31 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 02:06 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote:
For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time. The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss. Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes. IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach. And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past. Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year. Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)? Get your critical thinking cap on. That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting. As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role. ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss. Get your reality cap on. PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only. What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne? Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain. Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world. Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
Quick fact checks, Heromarine was only 0-2 vs Protoss (other 0-2 was vs Innovation), if you discount foreigners you also have to discount MaNa's 0-2 loss vs Polt, also a 8.5% difference is pretty significant (Terran wins 41.5% of the time vs Protoss wins 58.5% of the time- almost a 2:3 ratio).
And you're right, IEM was one of the more balanced win rates in terms of TvP atm and made for some awesome games. If this tournament happened alone I dont think most people would be complaining about TvP being imba. The problem is that we've had this
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ASUS_ROG_Winter_2014
and this
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IEM_Season_VIII_-_Sao_Paulo
and this
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_A_Statistics
Preceding it. It's not a one time thing, it's a trend.
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On February 17 2014 18:23 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2014 01:43 xAdra wrote:On February 15 2014 23:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:MC = BossToss = LogicToss? I like that. He's definitely making some really good points. Nowadays, any time any Protoss player wins it's "due to Protoss" rather than "due to skill". Sigh. On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote:
You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that. Absolutely agree. I personally also hate it when the race is overpowered and suddenly everyone playing that race is simply an evil asshole who wants easy wins and is bad at playing video games. Look at shit posts like this: On February 15 2014 23:42 plogamer wrote:On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote:
You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that. Oh woe is me, the Protoss. What a loss it is I feel, When I think DK will steal - My wins earned like a boss. Note: Protoss players in TL, get over yourself. You are not MC, balance at your level isn't what most reasonable people are complaining about. You want to act like all balance criticism is an attack because of a few assholes? Well, aren't you so wonderful... I despise such attitude the most : "I'm playing the underpowered race, therefore I have the right to act all high and mighty since I'm clearly more skilful than thou." Protoss players don't get to respond, or they're called out even more for daring to speak up in a climate where the race is strong. You can say that you are doing "balance criticism", but really, when it frequently contains words and phrases that continually antagonize the players and even degrade the pro players, what the fuck are you trying to get at? This is an internet forum, and you expect the people to sit back and just take the attacks and agree to all the "easy race" calls. Sure. I think MC is right about the maps being the problem, and I've thought so for quite a while. I've also always agreed with MsC providing far too much a safety net to protoss, and MsC is indeed the ultimate bandaid. It even looks like a bandaid. However, balance problems are NOT a reason to antagonize 1/3 of an internet forum. actually, 'you' cried more about the 1-1-1. which was arguably more map dependent than the subject(s) of tvp balance whine these days. terran players didn't get to respond, or they were called out even more for daring to speak up in a climate where the race is strong. Balance problems are NOT a reason to antagonize 1/3 of an internet forum the fact that the protoss legion of TL jumps so hard and so defensively onto threads like this reflects more on their own opinion than the invalidity of counter-arguments. 'you' wont let it even be a discussion. all 'you' do is shut down the arguments of the vocal minority and not the actual tvp balance concerns carefully thought out by great terran players on the board (thedwf comes to mind)mc has done interviews like this before and been 100% self-serving. nothing different here. blaming the maps sounds like a good way of tackling the 'real problem' but its not the entire problem.
Well that's because most of us agree with him. Duh. This line of argumentation seems to imply that because there are problems in TvP balance, whine is justified. TL didn't choose to ban balance whine because the whiners are wrong, but because they are improductive and help create an atmosphere of opposition that is completely unhelpful.
In short, you should be the ones distanciating from the whine; we shouldn't be the ones accepting it as part of a bigger picture.
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As much as I like and respect the Bosstoss I find his statement about the problem being map imbalance as opposed to the race imbalance to be a mute point. This is primarily because this is the map pool that we have and the map pool that the tournaments use and the map pool that players practice/ ladder on. So even if the races are balanced; (which I am leaning to they are not.) the field that they play on is not. And although balancing the game around poor map design isn't ideal it is the reality of the situation. It takes longer to design "Balanced" maps it seems then it takes to roll out a balance patch. The problem is balancing a race in a way that doesn't completely kneecap it against the other 3rd race.
I'm not a programmer but I have to wonder how hard would it be to have specific scripting in tournaments for the two races that are being played against each other? Ie. Ghosts EMP has a larger radius when playing against protoss but a smaller one against Zerg. If it were possible to run scripting for the races being played opposed to one another you could balance the two races being played without having any effect on the other. However I am probably thinking of something that is entirely to complex to code into the game.
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On February 18 2014 01:35 Swift118 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 00:34 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 23:17 Frex wrote:On February 17 2014 08:45 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 08:31 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 02:06 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote:
For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time. The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss. Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes. IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach. And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past. Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year. Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)? Get your critical thinking cap on. That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting. As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role. ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss. Get your reality cap on. PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only. What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne? Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain. Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world. Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually. You remind me of the clowns who when Terran was dominating sc2 would point to Fruitdealer and Nestea as sole proof of why there was no balance issues (in their own delusional or clueless minds) . Some players can play out of their skin and overcome imbalance or maybe some players find some way to exploit the current meta for a tournie or two, this does not mean all is fine if the person evaluating is not biased or clueless.
Shows how clueless you are as I wouldnt say that all, it is obvious terran was OP for so long.
You can disagree with MC, I do not.
When did MC cry balance when Toss was struggling to get well-placed let alone win a tournament ? He didnt. So to call him biased shows you dont know what you are talking about. How many other 'popular' pros balance whine, lots. That is why I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks, he has come from a place from winning top tier tournaments when his race was considered the weakest.
On February 18 2014 01:52 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 00:34 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 23:17 Frex wrote:On February 17 2014 08:45 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 08:31 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 02:06 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote:
For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time. The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss. Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes. IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach. And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past. Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year. Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)? Get your critical thinking cap on. That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting. As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role. ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss. Get your reality cap on. PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only. What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne? Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain. Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world. Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually. Quick fact checks, Heromarine was only 0-2 vs Protoss (other 0-2 was vs Innovation), if you discount foreigners you also have to discount MaNa's 0-2 loss vs Polt, also a 8.5% difference is pretty significant (Terran wins 41.5% of the time vs Protoss wins 58.5% of the time- almost a 2:3 ratio). And you're right, IEM was one of the more balanced win rates in terms of TvP atm and made for some awesome games. If this tournament happened alone I dont think most people would be complaining about TvP being imba. The problem is that we've had this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ASUS_ROG_Winter_2014and this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IEM_Season_VIII_-_Sao_Pauloand this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_A_StatisticsPreceding it. It's not a one time thing, it's a trend.
Im not sure about your PvT numbers so I checked them myself. PvT was 48 games played, 27 Toss won and 21 won by Terran making Toss win rate 56.25% and Terran 43.75%. Closer than what you calculated. Please correct me if Im wrong.
You quoted an extra 3 tournaments, all within last couple months. Terran was dominating tournaments for alot longer than a couple months and changes eventually came. It is too early to say anything right now, time is needed for the meta to develop, IEM Cologne is a perfect example of this.
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On February 17 2014 23:03 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 22:59 Loccstana wrote:
how come we never see Protoss spliting their units to avoid emps? Maybe we should add a stun duration to emp so Protoss will. Never? Hero was doing it constantly against Polt, and some players like Dear just do it all the time as a rule.
You must mean templars. Cause i never saw a protoss splitting all of his fucking units just because he is shit scared against emp's.
It's not storm you know that blows up every single unit you have.
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What MC says is true but I think that making maps so that they don't favor protoss would be way too limiting on the map makers because of the stuff like force fields, blink etc. The end result would be most maps looking pretty much the same, for example as Frost, which is probably one of the most balanced maps for all 3 races.
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There's also been an off-season in terms of tournaments, which means the meta game will evolve more slowly.
Nearly all maps are good Blink maps in this seasons map pool, but tbh that single Mothership Core vision nerf will do so much on it's own. Harder to scout, might force earlier scouting tech/sentry, ramps are harder to Blink up on. Harder to see Bunkers, units standing ready, get vision of a ramp Sentry can forcefield.
Will sometimes make you lose your Core out on the map and Immortal allins relying on Sentries will make flanks more difficult to see. It will make allins/pressure more risky and possibly create one more reason to upgrade it to a Mothership xD
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I think Blink might be a minor problem in the matchup but honestly it's more about nexus cannon and how its nearly impossible to punish toss from not only taking 2- 3 bases but also freely teching to their godlike unit compositions.
I don't think anyone has mentioned Blizzard's stance in the issue which is laughable: They want terran to explore Mech.. as if they haven't....
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EPT
