MC's thoughts on current balance whining - Page 16

On February 18 2014 16:45 Parcelleus wrote:


Shows how clueless you are as I wouldnt say that all, it is obvious terran was OP for so long.

You can disagree with MC, I do not.

When did MC cry balance when Toss was struggling to get well-placed let alone win a tournament ? He didnt. So to call him biased shows you dont know what you are talking about. How many other 'popular' pros balance whine, lots. That is why I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks, he has come from a place from winning top tier tournaments when his race was considered the weakest.



Im not sure about your PvT numbers so I checked them myself. PvT was 48 games played, 27 Toss won and 21 won by Terran making Toss win rate 56.25% and Terran 43.75%. Closer than what you calculated. Please correct me if Im wrong.

You quoted an extra 3 tournaments, all within last couple months. Terran was dominating tournaments for alot longer than a couple months and changes eventually came. It is too early to say anything right now, time is needed for the meta to develop, IEM Cologne is a perfect example of this.

On February 19 2014 00:23 Joner wrote:


Taking all TvPs from ASUS, IEM Cologne & Sao Paulo and Code A we're looking at a total of 109 games. Protoss won 63 of those which is equivalent to a 57,8% win ratio. Close to what you said. Contrary to what you claim this is quite a significant number.

However, looking at only the win percentages doesn't tell the whole story. I do not have the data to support it but based on what i've seen in recent TvP meta probably around 1/3 or more of those games where protoss came out victorious it was through some sort of 'cheese'. By this i mean some sort of proxy or unscouted tech resulting in an easy win for the protoss.
Terran on the other hand has no corresponding strategies to those of protoss and in turn will pull no easy such as an oracle rolling in completely wrecking a mineral line in seconds. I'm sure you know what i'm talking about.

You can give the game all the time in world, this will not change. It will remain unfair almost by definition til the end of days.
Yet you propose we wait it out despite the negative impact it has on the game. You also mention how terran was dominating for a much longer time which implies you have some sort of grudge originating from imbalances years ago in WoL. Not sure how this is going to serve you point either as it's pretty much established that Terran with fast bunkers, fast reapers etc was in fact imbalanced and it was a good thing action was taken.

Your obvious bias towards MC and disregard for what other progamers has to say also does not add to your credibility and you'll find it hard to convince anyone of what skewed. You said, and i quote "I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks". You come across as a true fanboy.

Sorry to tell you though MC does have an interest in keeping the current state of the game as it is. Not implying that hes acting on it but it's not completely outside of the realm of possibilities to suggest that he is.

On February 19 2014 02:09 HolyArrow wrote:


Did you even read MC's post? He clearly admits that there is imbalance, but that it's due to the maps. Obviously, he has a personal interest in Toss being a strong race since it helps his income and success as a progamer, but I fail to see how he's acting on that interest when he straight up says that there is indeed an imbalance, and puts forth a suggestion to correct that imbalance (changing the map pool). In doing so, he is suggesting a change that makes Toss weaker. So, you tell me how it's within the realm of possibility that he's somehow acting in self-interest when he's fully admitted that there's an imbalance present and has suggested steps to fix said imbalance (not to mention, he also thinks the time warp energy nerf is good).

On February 19 2014 02:22 sitromit wrote:

Or maybe he's suggesting fixes that actually won't fix the imbalance and trying to delay an inevitable nerf for as long as he can.

On February 19 2014 02:09 HolyArrow wrote:


Did you even read MC's post? He clearly admits that there is imbalance, but that it's due to the maps. Obviously, he has a personal interest in Toss being a strong race since it helps his income and success as a progamer, but I fail to see how he's acting on that interest when he straight up says that there is indeed an imbalance, and puts forth a suggestion to correct that imbalance (changing the map pool). In doing so, he is suggesting a change that makes Toss weaker. So, you tell me how it's within the realm of possibility that he's somehow acting in self-interest when he's fully admitted that there's an imbalance present and has suggested steps to fix said imbalance (not to mention, he also thinks the time warp energy nerf is good).

On February 19 2014 03:02 Joner wrote:


It's interesting that you ask me if i even read MC's post as you clearly didn't read mine. If you had read it thoroughly before getting carried away with the quote button you'd see that i am in fact replying to Parcelleus' post. It will make sense to you once you fully understand what it is im in fact replying to.

I then clearly state that i am not implying he has acting on that interest but rather that it is not impossible for reasons even a feeble mind could phatom. I will not provide you with those reasons because again, i did not and i am still not implying that he is working on a personal agenda simply because i dont believe he is. At least that was not the motive behind his post. I can easily see it as a possibility though. Personally, i just think he's wrong and i don't agree it's the maps. I wont stop there, i think it would be an enormous mistake to go down that route, start balancing maps (again) around protoss. it would only divert attention away from the real problem (read: protoss).

And no. He's suggesting a change to the map pool which is not the same as making protoss weaker. They might but it's still not the same thing so don't confuse the two. To me that sounds more like "I still wanna keep my toys and see how i can abuse them on a different set of maps". Maybe MC doesn't believe that is what hes saying but that to me is irrelevant as that's the outcome i forsee.

On February 18 2014 16:45 Parcelleus wrote:


Shows how clueless you are as I wouldnt say that all, it is obvious terran was OP for so long.

You can disagree with MC, I do not.

When did MC cry balance when Toss was struggling to get well-placed let alone win a tournament ? He didnt. So to call him biased shows you dont know what you are talking about. How many other 'popular' pros balance whine, lots. That is why I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks, he has come from a place from winning top tier tournaments when his race was considered the weakest.



Im not sure about your PvT numbers so I checked them myself. PvT was 48 games played, 27 Toss won and 21 won by Terran making Toss win rate 56.25% and Terran 43.75%. Closer than what you calculated. Please correct me if Im wrong.

You quoted an extra 3 tournaments, all within last couple months. Terran was dominating tournaments for alot longer than a couple months and changes eventually came. It is too early to say anything right now, time is needed for the meta to develop, IEM Cologne is a perfect example of this.

On February 19 2014 03:38 Mortal wrote:
MC usually knows his shit like this. he's very outspoken about balance and I quite like that he is- people will say his perspective is biased towards P, but I think he's dead on in this case.

"I still wanna keep my toys and see how i can abuse them on a different set of maps" also makes it sound like you're just mad about having to deal with the things Toss can throw at you, rather than actually caring about balance. If that different set of maps causes the matchups to gravitate closer to 50/50 across the board, you shouldn't care about whether or not Toss gets to keep its "toys".

On February 19 2014 03:57 Joner wrote:
You're right, the oracle buff was unnecessary.

I could say the same to you my friend. The fact that you dont see that the real problem is protoss is beyond me. I could go ahead and explain to you everything that is wrong about the match up but i'd just be wasting my time. It's been discussed over and over so i'm not getting into that.

My point still stands: The maps are already limited alot more by protoss design as a race than by the other two races, mainly because of forcefields and wall off issues. Hence why we should deal with protoss rather than the maps.

Assuming both a change of map pool and a direct nerf to protoss would achieve the same thing, i.e. making protoss weaker, how do you motivate limiting the map design for future map makers over tweaking protoss race?

On February 19 2014 03:57 Joner wrote:
There is nothing contratictory about caring for both game balance and general design of the game at the same time. I care for both and i think you're just trying to dismiss me as an angry Terran rather than reflect over what i'm saying to you.

On February 15 2014 21:52 TheDwf wrote:
I'm posting this because I see too many people saying Zerg is imba.
ZvP = 50/50. Really 50/50. Don't blame maps or whatever…
The worse player loses. Protoss that whine really don't have any shame.
ZvT = I'll tell you why ZvT is so imbalanced. In terms of game balance, there's no problem, right?
But in ladder maps Zerg is 65/35 vs Terran. It's really depressing for Terran.
Why? It's because we have 4 maps where Brood lords are very strong. Daybreak, Akilon Wastes, Entombed Valley, Antiga.
After that we have Cloud Kingdom which is one of the most favourable map for Zerg vs Terran.
If you look at Whirlwind, it's 50/50. Terran have an ok time on this map.
This is not about game balance, the maps for ZvT is just too good for Zerg.
Before, Hellions and Ghost Snipes that swayed the game in ZvT both got nerfed.
Now games where zergs easily masses up the composition without deterrence is here.
I really didn't want to talk about balance whine because I'm a pro player, but
People are saying that zerg players don't even try hard and win due to the race
As a veteran, I feel bad for players that get all the hate and feel angry about it.
Sniper and RorO didn't win GSL after they were fooling around for a week.
They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying they were "patch zergs".
In my eyes, the two Zergs played well and that's why they went through. As programers they really learnt how to build infests and cast fungals well.
Also I see a lot of talk about nerfing Fungal but if we nerf that Zerg gets fucked.
DK-nim also knows this and this is why he isn't nerfing it. Infested Terran was a good ability for 25 energy and I'm glad it got nerfed.
With no balancing, just a change of maps will bring 50/50 in ZvT.
I think it was maps why Zergs won last GSLs.
Think about it, last season had the same balancing, but before the map changes was terran really that bad against Zerg?

On February 19 2014 04:13 HolyArrow wrote:


I don't see the real problem being Protoss, because as I said earlier, Protoss was not OP before the new map pool and the oracle change came along. Maybe if you had actually answered my question about when Protoss became OP (as in, what recent change caused this period of Protoss dominance to occur), we could have a more in-depth discussion about whether the maps or the race should mainly be changed.

It's hard to answer the question in your last paragraph because it has various assumptions behind it that I disagree with. I don't think that there's sufficient evidence to suggest that somehow the Protoss race limits map design more than other races do. There have been plenty of maps in the past that have favored one race or another due to various design choices of the maps plus the specific strengths of whatever race the map favored. For example, maps with lots of open space and large ramps favored Zerg, smaller maps generally favored Terran, etc.



I'm not saying that the two are contradictory, but just that it sounds like you care more about not having to deal with Toss tactics that you perceive as annoying rather than achieving balance.

I just want to reiterate the main issue I have here because I think it might be getting lost in all the sub-arguments. I can clearly see changes that correlate with Toss starting to dominate at the top level. Those changes are the new map pool and the oracle buff. However, we have people who are using this as an opportunity to make all sorts of claims about problems with Toss design and that Toss is generally OP in ways that have nothing to do with the changes that caused Toss to become OP in the first place. Why not just revert those changes (or in the case of the map pool, fix the map pool) and see what happens?

On February 19 2014 04:55 Joner wrote:


I've never phrased it "protoss is OP". I said there is a problem with protoss. Hence why i didn't answer your question. It's just as full of assumptions as you acuse my question of being.
I dont have an interest in having an in depht about this subject with someone whom, clearly, already made up his mind about what the solution should be. I'll refer you to some of the things Pursuit mentioned in his last post cause i'm not gonna type up all that just for you. I fundamentally disagree with you and it's becoming more and more apparent that my words are nothing but air to you and frankly you're starting to bore me.

You're so fixed on the need for a big change for the metagame to swing in a race's favour. You keep asking the same question just so you can the get the answer you're so looking for: that its the maps that made protoss strong.
First of all you need to realize that with the release of Hots terran structure didnt change much. A few things were added such as medivac speed and mines but the general way of playing TvP didn't change.. Protoss on the other hand got a MSC which they solely rely on for staying alive in the early game now. Naturally this adjustment took some time to get used to especially when you have to deal with sudden medivac boosts and mines. However as time went on they learned to defend against the new toys that terran had got and slowly but surely realized how amazingly greedy they can be. In between all that the mine got nerfed, the oracle buffed and so did the DT movespeed if im not mistaken. We have now arrived to todays metagame where protoss' are stomping terrans like there's no tomorrow.

Sure you can argue all you want it's solely the maps but there are other factors at play and pointing at the maps saying "this is the problem" is pointing the wrong direction.

On February 19 2014 05:29 HolyArrow wrote:


The first part of your post sounds like nitpicking semantics to me. I don't think anyone can deny that Protoss is currently OP on a winrate basis. The PvT numbers are pretty damning and the general performance of Toss players at the top level is more dominant than I've ever seen. Don't try to equate the level of assumptions that we're making, because I'm positive that "Protoss is OP" is a far more reasonable statement easily backed up with empirical evidence than "Protoss design dictates maps significantly more than Zerg or Terran design".

The widow mine nerf didn't really affect PvT as far as I can tell. WMs were mainly used to defend against oracle harass which is unaffected by the splash nerf, and were sometimes used for harass, but they were never a key part of a Terran army composition in PvT. WMs are far more prevalent in TvZ and that's why they were nerfed. And as for DT movespeed, you are indeed mistaken - DT movement speed has not changed. As for the oracle buff, I've said before that I'm fine with reverting it since I felt it was completely unnecessary. You make it sound like some non-existent DT speed buff and weaker WMs are a huge part of why PvT is in its current state. If there ARE problems beyond the map pool and the oracle nerf, DTs and weaker WM splash are certainly not the issues.

In the end, I simply find it a lot more likely that the relatively recent changes that correlate with Toss dominance are far more likely sources for said dominance, rather than it being due to a bunch of stuff that's been in the game for a long time that people have always been complaining about.

On February 17 2014 16:07 MrLightning wrote:


Correct! Protoss players dont deserve their spot in the sun because they are the scum of the earth, and I cant get cheap wins against them anymore. Oh, ooops, I forgot that we are claiming the moral highground when our race is losing out... I mean to say: "retribution is horrendous idea when it comes to balancing". Therefore, protoss should be nerfed hard, in order to restore balance and promote good sportsmanship. wink*