With the current state of the game and forums being flooded with people whining about Protoss (we've all seen twitch chat).
The BossToss himself gave his thoughts, I found this on Reddit and think that MC has a good point about map inbalance instead of certain matchups (PvT in general).
All credit goes to Semmo_ as he translated and posted it.
Yeah I agree, I feel the new maps were put in without much thought/testing put into them. Look at Deadalus Point.. even with the map fix the map is still pretty broken.
The fact that Blink all-ins are good in PvT is almost purely map based. It's so easy to blink in and out of the main base that it's almost a joke. They should invest more time into maps next season
This is way too reasonable, if you can blame your own bad play on the power of protoss, you don't need to work on yourself. That way you can keep telling yourself that it's all the race and not the skill.
thread title is cool. Thanks for the share. It is a scary thought that they might balance Protoss around the current maps. But I guess that is also a way to keep the map pool fresh.
I'm posting this because I see too many people saying Zerg is imba. ZvP = 50/50. Really 50/50. Don't blame maps or whatever… The worse player loses. Protoss that whine really don't have any shame. ZvT = I'll tell you why ZvT is so imbalanced. In terms of game balance, there's no problem, right? But in ladder maps Zerg is 65/35 vs Terran. It's really depressing for Terran. Why? It's because we have 4 maps where Brood lords are very strong. Daybreak, Akilon Wastes, Entombed Valley, Antiga. After that we have Cloud Kingdom which is one of the most favourable map for Zerg vs Terran. If you look at Whirlwind, it's 50/50. Terran have an ok time on this map. This is not about game balance, the maps for ZvT is just too good for Zerg. Before, Hellions and Ghost Snipes that swayed the game in ZvT both got nerfed. Now games where zergs easily masses up the composition without deterrence is here. I really didn't want to talk about balance whine because I'm a pro player, but People are saying that zerg players don't even try hard and win due to the race As a veteran, I feel bad for players that get all the hate and feel angry about it. Sniper and RorO didn't win GSL after they were fooling around for a week. They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying they were "patch zergs". In my eyes, the two Zergs played well and that's why they went through. As programers they really learnt how to build infests and cast fungals well. Also I see a lot of talk about nerfing Fungal but if we nerf that Zerg gets fucked. DK-nim also knows this and this is why he isn't nerfing it. Infested Terran was a good ability for 25 energy and I'm glad it got nerfed. With no balancing, just a change of maps will bring 50/50 in ZvT. I think it was maps why Zergs won last GSLs. Think about it, last season had the same balancing, but before the map changes was terran really that bad against Zerg?
Yeah I guess he's kind of right. I don't like some other things about protoss, but if they made blink so that it couldn't jump up double cliffs (like reapers), and balanced maps around that, it would already help a ton. Blink is indeed what allows protoss to apply pressure early and leave terran guessing while teching and expanding freely..
I don't think many people are whining about Protoss being too strong vs Zerg anyway. In contrary, lots of people are concerned about swarm hosts being too strong, but I think it's fine (but boring to watch).
Most whining is coming from PvT being imba as MC descibed. I mean, he said it's only the maps favouring Protoss and blink all ins, but still... as long as the maps are the problem and being used you can just say PvT is imba cause there is no way for Terran players to veto all the imba maps and thus have to live with it, even if the game isn't imba on fair maps (which I don't know, storm + colossi late game looks so unbeatable in hands of good players).
too bad it will probably take us 10 more months to get rid of all these maps. IMO only Frost/Habitation deserves to stay till the end of the year, Heavy Rain might stay too as it usually delivers great games, plz add King Sejong Station btw
On February 15 2014 21:52 TheDwf wrote: I'm posting this because I see too many people saying Zerg is imba. ZvP = 50/50. Really 50/50. Don't blame maps or whatever… The worse player loses. Protoss that whine really don't have any shame. ZvT = I'll tell you why ZvT is so imbalanced. In terms of game balance, there's no problem, right? But in ladder maps Zerg is 65/35 vs Terran. It's really depressing for Terran. Why? It's because we have 4 maps where Brood lords are very strong. Daybreak, Akilon Wastes, Entombed Valley, Antiga. After that we have Cloud Kingdom which is one of the most favourable map for Zerg vs Terran. If you look at Whirlwind, it's 50/50. Terran have an ok time on this map. This is not about game balance, the maps for ZvT is just too good for Zerg. Before, Hellions and Ghost Snipes that swayed the game in ZvT both got nerfed. Now games where zergs easily masses up the composition without deterrence is here. I really didn't want to talk about balance whine because I'm a pro player, but People are saying that zerg players don't even try hard and win due to the race As a veteran, I feel bad for players that get all the hate and feel angry about it. Sniper and RorO didn't win GSL after they were fooling around for a week. They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying they were "patch zergs". In my eyes, the two Zergs played well and that's why they went through. As programers they really learnt how to build infests and cast fungals well. Also I see a lot of talk about nerfing Fungal but if we nerf that Zerg gets fucked. DK-nim also knows this and this is why he isn't nerfing it. Infested Terran was a good ability for 25 energy and I'm glad it got nerfed. With no balancing, just a change of maps will bring 50/50 in ZvT. I think it was maps why Zergs won last GSLs. Think about it, last season had the same balancing, but before the map changes was terran really that bad against Zerg?
Is it just Blink stalkers and the current map pool that is making the match up quite heavily Protoss favoured though... It would be great if MC is correct, but I feel like there is a bit more wrong with that match up then just that.
Talking about PvT here (can't say much for PvZ...) I think it's been quite evident for some time now that maps are a problem (everyone talked about Yeonsu, and I remember when TY hold a blink build on it he was seen as some sort of god...).
The really interesting point made by MC here is that if we look at the state of the game before the current map rotation, there was a significant difference. What that should lead to is thinking about the maps before considering a move balance wise.
That's why I think the blink nerf that has been proposed (+5 second cooldown) isn't the right choice. Indeed, it weakens too much one cool ability because on some maps it can be abused...
That's not how it should work in my opinion. The map roster changes, bam, every balance changes become possibly irrelevant, and must be reconsidered. I think maps should change before units/spells/buildings/etc.
Well, the thing is, when all pro tournaments are pretty much forced the same map pool for 3-4 months, then map balance is tied to game balance. I mean, 1-1-1 was map dependent. I would argue The Queen buff wouldn't have been an issue if we had farther thirds so the 6 Queen builds weren't holding everything from Terran.
Yes, things CAN be balanced via maps, but it also limits a lot of maps. Sure, Frost might be ok, but do we went to play on Frost clones?
With how strong blink is in its current form, the only way to balance TvP through maps would be to make every main base surrounded by air space, which is a HUGE limitation to mapmaking. The only recent maps I can think of that do this are whirlwind and habitation station, both have only 1 spot where you can blink into the main which can be covered relatively easily.
Basically its something you could potentially try to patch with maps, but not really worth it. I don't understand why protoss players are so devastated by the idea of a blink nerf anyway, the race is so over represented everywhere that clearly something needs to be done.
On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote: You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
Well, this has always happened and not just to Protoss. Early on, 'cheesy' players got hate, and then Terrans for a bit, and then the patch Zerg era.
On February 15 2014 22:27 Bagi wrote: With how strong blink is in its current form, the only way to balance TvP through maps would be to make every main base surrounded by air space, which is a HUGE limitation to mapmaking.
You could have a double cliff on most of the surface except for one or two spots. Still lets reapers go in easily and limits the blink options to specific spots in the base.
On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote: You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
Well, this has always happened and not just to Protoss. Early on, 'cheesy' players got hate, and then Terrans for a bit, and then the patch Zerg era.
And I say the same thing to the people who shit on Sniper or Jonnyrecco.
On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote: You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
Well, this has always happened and not just to Protoss. Early on, 'cheesy' players got hate, and then Terrans for a bit, and then the patch Zerg era.
And I say the same thing to the people who shit on Sniper or Jonnyrecco.
Yes, I am not condoning it. I am just saying it has been around for a long time and isn't likely to go away.
On February 15 2014 22:27 Bagi wrote: With how strong blink is in its current form, the only way to balance TvP through maps would be to make every main base surrounded by air space, which is a HUGE limitation to mapmaking.
You could have a double cliff on most of the surface except for one or two spots. Still lets reapers go in easily and limits the blink options to specific spots in the base.
I don't really understand this post, since when does double cliff stop blink stalkers?
maps are just one of the many variables of game balance, i think its too limiting to say thats the only issue
also while zvp is certainly not as bad as tvp i think theres a reason why in 2013 of the 13 wcs titles theres been only one zerg champion, also currently there wouldve been 20 protoss in code s if there hadnt been so many deadalus freewins
On February 15 2014 22:30 TheDwf wrote: Exactly why are people pretending Blink is the only issue with TvP currently?
Because blink is such a dominant strategy now, that all early game is based off that. And early game just snowballs to mid and then late game. So we need to 'fix' the blink all and then we can see the affects and evaluate.
It is like the 1-1-1, 11-11 pre bunker barracks nerf. Need to fix those first before we can see the issues in the mid and late game.
The game is being played on maps, you cannot segregate balance from maps. If the problem is restricted to only one or two maps we can very well change the mappool and consider the matchup fine. However, if the problem is appears on half the mappool because very standard features are suddenly considered broken the problem is the matchup, not the maps.
MC talks about 5maps from the current pool that favor Protoss due to two different problems Daedalus, Heavy Rain, Yeonsu, Polar Night - blink play Alterzim - too big.
Now Alterzim is probably a problem map, its size is experimentally big, its not a standard feature and if it proves to be imbalanced it is easy to avoid making such maps, just like we have done in the years past with like 1exception. But what about the other 4? They have standard features that are suddenly considered imbalanced - after changes to the units, not to the maps! If our new standard should be to avoid maps with those standard features, then there also cannot be another Cloud Kingdom, Bel'Shire Beach, Antiga Shipyard, Shakuras Plateau, Derelicted Watcher (...), because those maps have the same with the "new balance" problematic feature (a blinkabuseable ledge). Hell, Akilon and Ohana are problematic for blink rushes with this standard...
TLDR: If 50% of all maps that have ever been played are considered broken because of balance changes, then we should not consider the maps problematic but the balance changes.
I'm not convinced that the only issues lie in maps, tbh. Protoss seems really sooo heavily favored that it can't be just that... Any thing they do seems utterly devastating for Terran, it can't be just the threat of one powerful build like Blink stalkers.
Edit: I agree that it's a good thing to try the fix the most problematic shit first, and that's probably blink stalkers right now, but "map balancing" doesn't solve everything. Sometimes, units are too strong, like the MSC.
I have to say MC is at least partially right about PvT imbalance being due to maps. If one looks at Proleague, the top 3 players are Terrans and it is because The King Sejong Station is decent for terrans and Outboxer is actually slightly advantageous. GSL should stop blindly adopting Blizzard maps such as Daedalus Point and be more like KeSPA.
On February 15 2014 22:45 ZenithM wrote: I'm not convinced that the only issues lie in maps, tbh. Protoss seems really sooo heavily favored that it can't be just that... Any thing they do seems utterly devastating for Terran, it can't be just the threat of one powerful build like Blink stalkers.
Edit: I agree that it's a good thing to try the fix the most problematic shit first, and that's probably blink stalkers right now, but "map balancing" doesn't solve everything. Sometimes, units are too strong, like the MSC.
Yeah . I would just love to see terran having an option to scout better against toss and/or give them something to punish a toss for being too greedy. Like how toss has a option to punish terran. Just my assumption though.
I hope the Ghost Buff, vision nerf, timewarp nerf really fixes tvp. I hope so.
Kind of symptomatic that MC writes about annoying whiny attitude and all the answers focus on actual balance. MC should have seen that coming and not mentioned that part about maps, though, so I do blame it partially on him.
On February 15 2014 22:45 ZenithM wrote: I'm not convinced that the only issues lie in maps, tbh. Protoss seems really sooo heavily favored that it can't be just that... Any thing they do seems utterly devastating for Terran, it can't be just the threat of one powerful build like Blink stalkers.
Edit: I agree that it's a good thing to try the fix the most problematic shit first, and that's probably blink stalkers right now, but "map balancing" doesn't solve everything. Sometimes, units are too strong, like the MSC.
PvT lategame is very micro intensive from the Terran side, you have to Stim-kite the protoss army and have good EMP control versus chargelots, and a Terran has to spread a Protoss thin with attacking on multiple places. You can't let a Protoss get that ultimate deathball because the race is designed to be extremely strong in lategame.
Blink is an issue in the early game, but you have to agree that the balance starting swinging in Protoss'es favor with the new mappool.
On February 15 2014 22:50 Nebuchad wrote: Kind of symptomatic that MC writes about annoying whiny attitude and all the answers focus on actual balance. MC should have seen that coming and not mentioned that part about maps, though, so I do blame it partially on him.
Well, he is saying it's imbalanced though. It's not like he's only saying the complains are illegitimate and whiny.
On February 15 2014 22:50 Nebuchad wrote: Kind of symptomatic that MC writes about annoying whiny attitude and all the answers focus on actual balance. MC should have seen that coming and not mentioned that part about maps, though, so I do blame it partially on him.
Lecturing people while playing the dominant race is also not a very smart move.
On February 15 2014 22:50 Nebuchad wrote: Kind of symptomatic that MC writes about annoying whiny attitude and all the answers focus on actual balance. MC should have seen that coming and not mentioned that part about maps, though, so I do blame it partially on him.
Lecturing people while playing the dominant race is also not a very smart move.
MC plays terran in real life, so it's fair criticism.
On February 15 2014 22:48 Pangpootata wrote: I have to say MC is at least partially right about PvT imbalance being due to maps. If one looks at Proleague, the top 3 players are Terrans and it is because The King Sejong Station is decent for terrans and Outboxer is actually slightly advantageous. GSL should stop blindly adopting Blizzard maps such as Daedalus Point and be more like KeSPA.
On February 15 2014 22:48 Pangpootata wrote: I have to say MC is at least partially right about PvT imbalance being due to maps. If one looks at Proleague, the top 3 players are Terrans and it is because The King Sejong Station is decent for terrans and Outboxer is actually slightly advantageous. GSL should stop blindly adopting Blizzard maps such as Daedalus Point and be more like KeSPA.
I don't think GSL has a choice. They are WCS KR.
Oh that's right. I had assumed they have more autonomy now because their brand is back to GSL and no longer WCS. Dirty Blizzard cash at work.
On February 15 2014 22:50 Nebuchad wrote: Kind of symptomatic that MC writes about annoying whiny attitude and all the answers focus on actual balance. MC should have seen that coming and not mentioned that part about maps, though, so I do blame it partially on him.
Well, he is saying it's imbalanced though. It's not like he's only saying the complains are illegitimate and whiny.
Yup, it is complaining about PvZ whiners and people that player bash. He does say PvT has issues and Terrans should be sad.
On February 15 2014 22:48 Pangpootata wrote: I have to say MC is at least partially right about PvT imbalance being due to maps. If one looks at Proleague, the top 3 players are Terrans and it is because The King Sejong Station is decent for terrans and Outboxer is actually slightly advantageous. GSL should stop blindly adopting Blizzard maps such as Daedalus Point and be more like KeSPA.
I don't think GSL has a choice. They are WCS KR.
Oh that's right. I had assumed they have more autonomy now because their brand is back to GSL and no longer WCS. Dirty Blizzard cash at work.
And like last year with global finals, it would suck to be Korean in GSL if they played on different map pools. Same with Blizzcon this year.
MC = BossToss = LogicToss? I like that. He's definitely making some really good points. Nowadays, any time any Protoss player wins it's "due to Protoss" rather than "due to skill". Sigh.
On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote: You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
On February 15 2014 22:50 Nebuchad wrote: Kind of symptomatic that MC writes about annoying whiny attitude and all the answers focus on actual balance. MC should have seen that coming and not mentioned that part about maps, though, so I do blame it partially on him.
Well, he is saying it's imbalanced though. It's not like he's only saying the complains are illegitimate and whiny.
Yeah that's what I mean, and I'm just saying his point is stronger if he doesn't put in the whole "also the maps play a factor", because from an audience standpoint, it doesn't really matter where the imbalance comes from.
On February 15 2014 22:50 Nebuchad wrote: Kind of symptomatic that MC writes about annoying whiny attitude and all the answers focus on actual balance. MC should have seen that coming and not mentioned that part about maps, though, so I do blame it partially on him.
Well, he is saying it's imbalanced though. It's not like he's only saying the complains are illegitimate and whiny.
Yeah that's what I mean, and I'm just saying his point is stronger if he doesn't put in the whole "also the maps play a factor", because from an audience standpoint, it doesn't really matter where the imbalance comes from.
i dont think so, getting every win downplayed is just part of being the dominant race, was the same for terrans when code s had 20 of them or zerg when they won 6 gsls in a row
its frustrating for protoss players atm but hopefully it will get better soon
The new maps are horrible for Terran. Delete those maps. Bring back good maps like Daybreak, Ohana, Akilon Wastes, Whirlwind, Entombed Valley, and Neo Planet S. That's how you balance the game immediately without waiting months and months for test maps.
On February 15 2014 23:28 Dwayn wrote: MC is wrong, it's not just the map and PvZ is not 50/50. Not too surprising that he would be biased.
PvZ is kind of ~50% everywhere. Proleague, Code A (if you eliminate all the old Deadalus games, else it's a little Zergfavored), Code S, aligulac, ladder.
Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS.
On February 15 2014 23:14 Salient wrote: MC is right.
The new maps are horrible for Terran. Delete those maps. Bring back good maps like Daybreak, Ohana, Akilon Wastes, Whirlwind, Entombed Valley, and Neo Planet S. That's how you balance the game immediately without waiting months and months for test maps.
I hope you're being sarcastic, don't get me wrong. I do think current map pool is pretty crappy and favors Protoss over Terran in PvT. But going that far back for using maps is arguably helpful to the meta game. If anything we should be getting new and different maps that would even out the matchup more rather than going by an old standby. Though I do miss Whirlwind and Akilon, I know it's hypocritical of me, but I wouldn't mind seeing those maps come back even for a short while.
On February 15 2014 23:32 Big J wrote: Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS.
I would just like to quote ToD doing some analysis during IEM: "There is no MSC with this army, this is not supposed to happen" lol seriously, do you really think it is normal to go sniping hatches without any risk xD?
On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote: You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
Oh woe is me, the Protoss. What a loss it is I feel, When I think DK will steal - My wins earned like a boss.
Note: Protoss players in TL, get over yourself. You are not MC, balance at your level isn't what most reasonable people are complaining about. You want to act like all balance criticism is an attack because of a few assholes? Well, aren't you so wonderful...
On February 15 2014 23:32 Big J wrote: Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS.
I would just like to quote ToD doing some analysis during IEM: "There is no MSC with this army, this is not supposed to happen" lol seriously, do you really think it is normal to go sniping hatches without any risk xD?
No, I'm not gonna discuss PvZ balance based upon a single move that happened in a game that you are pissed right now. Really not. Even more I could tell you why it was completely fine not to have an MsC with that army in that situation.
On February 15 2014 23:28 Dwayn wrote: MC is wrong, it's not just the map and PvZ is not 50/50. Not too surprising that he would be biased.
PvZ is kind of ~50% everywhere. Proleague, Code A (if you eliminate all the old Deadalus games, else it's a little Zergfavored), Code S, aligulac, ladder.
Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS.
Yep it's 50%, and in fact Zerg and Protoss are in fact even at the top (code S distribution). It's just that the infamous "vocal minority" of the community has devolved into endless whining and screaming at every possible reason, wether that's justified or not, like never before. It's quite saddening honestly.
On February 15 2014 23:32 Big J wrote: Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS.
I would just like to quote ToD doing some analysis during IEM: "There is no MSC with this army, this is not supposed to happen" lol seriously, do you really think it is normal to go sniping hatches without any risk xD?
No, I'm not gonna discuss PvZ balance based upon a single move that happened in a game that you are pissed right now. Really not. Even more I could tell you why it was completely fine not to have an MsC with that army in that situation.
Ok more generally, do you really think it is balanced to walk around the map with no risk? I always thought of RTS to be partially about placement. Please don't respond, I don't want to hear you sophistical dishonesty
Sure MC has some points there and without the maps where blink is THE strategy to go for it the matchup would be more balanced, win-ratio wise.
But seriously, he seems like a offended little kid to me who is angry because Protoss wins don't get honored anymore.
I'm sure that all the top Protoss players out there are working hard to get their things done but still:
NOBODY can tell me that in a late game situation where Toss and Terran are both maxed out and the battle begins, the Toss nearly has as much effort as the Terran to control his army without losing all his units badly.
Also, it's just a fact that Protoss has the most the most cheesy builds that can straight up end in a build order win when the opponent reacts in the wrong way (Proxy Oracle/ DT), whereas Toss itself is pretty save against every push because of Photon Cannon, MSC and Forcefields.
I'm not saying Toss is overpowered if both players play their races up to the limit, I just feel like if you put the same work into all three races, you will advance furthest playing Protoss.
On February 15 2014 23:32 Big J wrote: Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS.
I would just like to quote ToD doing some analysis during IEM: "There is no MSC with this army, this is not supposed to happen" lol seriously, do you really think it is normal to go sniping hatches without any risk xD?
No, I'm not gonna discuss PvZ balance based upon a single move that happened in a game that you are pissed right now. Really not. Even more I could tell you why it was completely fine not to have an MsC with that army in that situation.
Ok more generally, do you really think it is balanced to walk around the map with no risk? I always thought of RTS to be partially about placement. Please don't respond, I don't want to hear you sophisitical dishonesty
Yes, it is safe to walk around the map if you have complete intell of your opponents position. That's why he could do that. Mana knew how big Jaedongs army was, because he happened to meet the roaches half way with that push and he had an observer on the swarm hosts. It's Jaedong who fucked up and didn't react to Manas movement when the roaches and the Colossus/Stalker/Sentry army spotted each other. If Jaedong brings the SHs on top of the roaches to the 3rd/4th, Mana has to back off immidiatly. Yet even more, Mana was in a better position regardless since Jaedong read the opening wrong, didn't scout the VRs and went for a tech (SH/roach) that gets punished by VR play. Jaedong made 3big mistakes in that game: 1overreacting to Manas first pressure, 2not scouting properly and gambling on needing no antiair/even not starting Antiair when he saw the VRs over a minute before Manas big play happened, 3not reacting properly to Manas movement.
You are right, RTS is a lot about placement and Jaedong fucked up in multiple ways.
On February 15 2014 23:32 Big J wrote: Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS.
I would just like to quote ToD doing some analysis during IEM: "There is no MSC with this army, this is not supposed to happen" lol seriously, do you really think it is normal to go sniping hatches without any risk xD?
No, I'm not gonna discuss PvZ balance based upon a single move that happened in a game that you are pissed right now. Really not. Even more I could tell you why it was completely fine not to have an MsC with that army in that situation.
Ok more generally, do you really think it is balanced to walk around the map with no risk? I always thought of RTS to be partially about placement. Please don't respond, I don't want to hear you sophisitical dishonesty
Yes, it is safe to walk around the map if you have complete intell of your opponents position. That's why he could do that. Mana knew how big Jaedongs army was, because he happened to meet the roaches half way with that push and he had an observer on the swarm hosts. It's Jaedong who fucked up and didn't react to Manas movement when the roaches and the Colossus/Stalker/Sentry army spotted each other. If Jaedong brings the SHs on top of the roaches to the 3rd/4th, Mana has to back off immidiatly. Yet even more, Mana was in a better position regardless since Jaedong read the opening wrong, didn't scout the VRs and went for a tech (SH/roach) that gets punished by VR play. Jaedong made 3big mistakes in that game: 1overreacting to Manas first pressure, 2not scouting properly and gambling on needing no antiair/even not starting Antiair when he saw the VRs over a minute before Manas big play happened, 3not reacting properly to Manas movement.
You are right, RTS is a lot about placement and Jaedong fucked up in multiple ways.
No, I'm not gonna discuss PvZ balance based upon a single move that happened. Really not.
On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote: funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously.
On February 15 2014 23:32 Big J wrote: Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS.
I would just like to quote ToD doing some analysis during IEM: "There is no MSC with this army, this is not supposed to happen" lol seriously, do you really think it is normal to go sniping hatches without any risk xD?
No, I'm not gonna discuss PvZ balance based upon a single move that happened in a game that you are pissed right now. Really not. Even more I could tell you why it was completely fine not to have an MsC with that army in that situation.
Ok more generally, do you really think it is balanced to walk around the map with no risk? I always thought of RTS to be partially about placement. Please don't respond, I don't want to hear you sophisitical dishonesty
Yes, it is safe to walk around the map if you have complete intell of your opponents position. That's why he could do that. Mana knew how big Jaedongs army was, because he happened to meet the roaches half way with that push and he had an observer on the swarm hosts. It's Jaedong who fucked up and didn't react to Manas movement when the roaches and the Colossus/Stalker/Sentry army spotted each other. If Jaedong brings the SHs on top of the roaches to the 3rd/4th, Mana has to back off immidiatly. Yet even more, Mana was in a better position regardless since Jaedong read the opening wrong, didn't scout the VRs and went for a tech (SH/roach) that gets punished by VR play. Jaedong made 3big mistakes in that game: 1overreacting to Manas first pressure, 2not scouting properly and gambling on needing no antiair/even not starting Antiair when he saw the VRs over a minute before Manas big play happened, 3not reacting properly to Manas movement.
You are right, RTS is a lot about placement and Jaedong fucked up in multiple ways.
No, I'm not gonna discuss PvZ balance based upon a single move that happened. Really not.
I did not do that. I only said why the particular move in this particular game was not risky. Nowhere did I imply that this is the reason why I believe PvZ is balanced. (unlike you who brought up that example as answer of me asking whether I was missing something huge to consider for PvZ balance). You really have to try harder than that.
On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote: funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously.
My thoughts exactly.
How is MC making money from expressing his opinion?
I think the game is relatively balanced at the highest level in terms of percentages, but percentages are a very one-dimensional way of looking at balance. The skill differential allows foreign Protosses to beat Koreans even in series matches (vZ, vT, and vP), whereas foreign Terrans basically have a far worse winrate against Koreans.
Not to discount the best of the foreigners, but I do think that many of the times that foreigners beat Koreans is due to the race skill differential.
Plus, I'm just a Korean fan, and Protoss is pretty meh to spectate. Make the race more difficult to play. This actually applies more to buffs. Buffs should help the better player, so if they can control better, they get the buff. <3
I don't think any zerg is complaining about win rates in pvz, what they dislike is the sheer amount of abusive strategies they have to put up with which are more than ever, and on top of that the only option zerg has is to aim for a 3hour swarmhost lategame which is fucking soul destroying.
On February 16 2014 00:13 MattD wrote: I don't think any zerg is complaining about win rates in pvz, what they dislike is the sheer amount of abusive strategies they have to put up with which are more than ever, and on top of that the only option zerg has is to aim for a 3hour swarmhost lategame which is fucking soul destroying.
He's kinda right but I feel if maps have to be one way to account for super strong blink all ins on top of all the PvZ constraints that's a problem that will stagnate the game more.
On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote: funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously.
My thoughts exactly.
How is MC making money from expressing his opinion?
Because most tournament don't prioritize player's raw skills over huge personality draws (especially foreign events). MC, although skillful at the game isn't exactly someone who is "S-class". So being controversial only adds to his "personality-traits" or w/e the average poster here defines it.
On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote: funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously.
My thoughts exactly.
How is MC making money from expressing his opinion?
Because balance changes could affect his tournament results and thus earnings?
On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote: funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously.
My thoughts exactly.
How is MC making money from expressing his opinion?
Because most tournament don't prioritize player's raw skills over huge personality draws (especially foreign events). MC, although skillful at the game isn't exactly someone who is "S-class". So being controversial only adds to his "personality-traits" or w/e the average poster here defines it.
Is this a bad thing? Personality is what makes these events interesting not some X player that was able to do his timing perfectly. It's cool in the beginning, but then it gets boring. Take personality expressions as a breath of fresh air. This doesn't mean someone being rude every time is justified though. There's more to that.
On February 15 2014 23:32 Big J wrote: Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS.
I would just like to quote ToD doing some analysis during IEM: "There is no MSC with this army, this is not supposed to happen" lol seriously, do you really think it is normal to go sniping hatches without any risk xD?
No, I'm not gonna discuss PvZ balance based upon a single move that happened in a game that you are pissed right now. Really not. Even more I could tell you why it was completely fine not to have an MsC with that army in that situation.
Ok more generally, do you really think it is balanced to walk around the map with no risk? I always thought of RTS to be partially about placement. Please don't respond, I don't want to hear you sophistical dishonesty
On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote: funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously.
My thoughts exactly.
How is MC making money from expressing his opinion?
Because most tournament don't prioritize player's raw skills over huge personality draws (especially foreign events). MC, although skillful at the game isn't exactly someone who is "S-class". So being controversial only adds to his "personality-traits" or w/e the average poster here defines it.
that's the dumbest thing i've read in a very long time. so MC's plan is to express his opinion about the maps, draw a bunch of attention so he can get invited to tournaments that way since he isn't good enough at the game and place highly enough that he gets paid. how? how's he gonna beat the what you call "s-class" players to reach a paid spot if he isn't good enough to be invited in the first place and he only got there because controversy? MC with the next level tactics, someone tell him he won't get paid just for participating in a tourney and he can't beat "s-class" players with internet posts.
On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote: funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously.
My thoughts exactly.
How is MC making money from expressing his opinion?
Because most tournament don't prioritize player's raw skills over huge personality draws (especially foreign events). MC, although skillful at the game isn't exactly someone who is "S-class". So being controversial only adds to his "personality-traits" or w/e the average poster here defines it.
that's the dumbest thing i've read in a very long time. so MC's plan is to express his opinion about the maps, draw a bunch of attention so he can get invited to tournaments that way since he isn't good enough at the game and place highly enough that he gets paid. how? how's he gonna beat the what you call "s-class" players to reach a paid spot if he isn't good enough to be invited in the first place and he only got there because controversy? MC with the next level tactics, someone tell him he won't get paid just for participating in a tourney and he can't beat "s-class" players with internet posts.
Its not stupid and there have been other players doing the same thing, except typically it's the foreign players not the Korean ones. Think IdrA or basically any other EG player. They continuously decline in skills and results but remain in the scene because of fan bases, promotions, being vocal in the community, etc. Incontrol was like 0-50 in tournaments and still being invited and "placing" at MLGs and such.
On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote: funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously.
My thoughts exactly.
How is MC making money from expressing his opinion?
Because most tournament don't prioritize player's raw skills over huge personality draws (especially foreign events). MC, although skillful at the game isn't exactly someone who is "S-class". So being controversial only adds to his "personality-traits" or w/e the average poster here defines it.
that's the dumbest thing i've read in a very long time. so MC's plan is to express his opinion about the maps, draw a bunch of attention so he can get invited to tournaments that way since he isn't good enough at the game and place highly enough that he gets paid. how? how's he gonna beat the what you call "s-class" players to reach a paid spot if he isn't good enough to be invited in the first place and he only got there because controversy? MC with the next level tactics, someone tell him he won't get paid just for participating in a tourney and he can't beat "s-class" players with internet posts.
Its not stupid and there have been other players doing the same thing, except typically it's the foreign players not the Korean ones. Think IdrA or basically any other EG player. They continuously decline in skills and results but remain in the scene because of fan bases, promotions, being vocal in the community, etc. Incontrol was like 0-50 in tournaments and still being invited and "placing" at MLGs and such.
Except he is already the highest sc2 earner and still places well in tournament. I don't think he needs to be controversial. He wanted to be controversial, he could say that map are fine and Terrans just have no skills.
MC was the only Toss winning anything in 2011 when Terran was massively overpowered. He didn't complain. He said he liked the difficult situation because it gave him the chance to prove how great he was. People should not just dismiss him as biased. I would love to hear Mvp's opinions on balance. He's old school awesome like MC, and they are best friends.
On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote: funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously.
My thoughts exactly.
How is MC making money from expressing his opinion?
Because most tournament don't prioritize player's raw skills over huge personality draws (especially foreign events). MC, although skillful at the game isn't exactly someone who is "S-class". So being controversial only adds to his "personality-traits" or w/e the average poster here defines it.
the one who is making it controversial is you. there is nothing wrong about a pro speaking out his mind, it's not like he does it avilo style either.
On February 16 2014 01:18 Salient wrote: MC was the only Toss winning anything in 2011 when Terran was massively overpowered. He didn't complain. He said he liked the difficult situation because it gave him the chance to prove how great he was. People should not just dismiss him as biased. I would love to hear Mvp's opinions on balance. He's old school awesome like MC, and they are best friends.
They are not best friends but pretty close as a progamer.
On February 15 2014 21:27 myRZeth wrote: I couldn t agree more with MC. I m ashamed of Zerg players. They re jump into the Protoss OP circlejerk is disgusting.
I think the next season should have their maps tested before being put in to the livegame.
I don't think there are many Zerg who actually consider ZvP imbalanced. It's just that Zerg is forced to play the idiotic Swarmhost-Turtling-Style, because everything else doesn't really work anymore. So: Yes, it's 50/50, but it sucks really hard and everyone would like to see more possibilities in the matchup, especially against Skytoss.
On February 15 2014 21:27 myRZeth wrote: I couldn t agree more with MC. I m ashamed of Zerg players. They re jump into the Protoss OP circlejerk is disgusting.
I think the next season should have their maps tested before being put in to the livegame.
I don't think there are many Zerg who actually consider ZvP imbalanced. It's just that Zerg is forced to play the idiotic Swarmhost-Turtling-Style, because everything else doesn't really work anymore. So: Yes, it's 50/50, but it sucks really hard and everyone would like to see more possibilities in the matchup, especially against Skytoss.
Ling/Hydra/Viper plus queens and a few infestors. (See, e.g. Life vs. Naniwa at IEM New York).
On February 15 2014 21:27 myRZeth wrote: I couldn t agree more with MC. I m ashamed of Zerg players. They re jump into the Protoss OP circlejerk is disgusting.
I think the next season should have their maps tested before being put in to the livegame.
I don't think there are many Zerg who actually consider ZvP imbalanced. It's just that Zerg is forced to play the idiotic Swarmhost-Turtling-Style, because everything else doesn't really work anymore. So: Yes, it's 50/50, but it sucks really hard and everyone would like to see more possibilities in the matchup, especially against Skytoss.
Ling/Hydra/Viper plus queens and a few infestors. (See, e.g. Life vs. Naniwa at IEM New York).
Nothing Zerg beats collosus voidray with tenplar support except mass static + free units.
On February 15 2014 23:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: MC = BossToss = LogicToss? I like that. He's definitely making some really good points. Nowadays, any time any Protoss player wins it's "due to Protoss" rather than "due to skill". Sigh.
On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote: You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
Absolutely agree.
I personally also hate it when the race is overpowered and suddenly everyone playing that race is simply an evil asshole who wants easy wins and is bad at playing video games. Look at shit posts like this:
On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote: You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
Oh woe is me, the Protoss. What a loss it is I feel, When I think DK will steal - My wins earned like a boss.
Note: Protoss players in TL, get over yourself. You are not MC, balance at your level isn't what most reasonable people are complaining about. You want to act like all balance criticism is an attack because of a few assholes? Well, aren't you so wonderful...
I despise such attitude the most : "I'm playing the underpowered race, therefore I have the right to act all high and mighty since I'm clearly more skilful than thou." Protoss players don't get to respond, or they're called out even more for daring to speak up in a climate where the race is strong. You can say that you are doing "balance criticism", but really, when it frequently contains words and phrases that continually antagonize the players and even degrade the pro players, what the fuck are you trying to get at? This is an internet forum, and you expect the people to sit back and just take the attacks and agree to all the "easy race" calls. Sure.
I think MC is right about the maps being the problem, and I've thought so for quite a while. I've also always agreed with MsC providing far too much a safety net to protoss, and MsC is indeed the ultimate bandaid. It even looks like a bandaid. However, balance problems are NOT a reason to antagonize 1/3 of an internet forum.
Going into what MC said; We have 7 reasonably different maps in the pool, of which 2 are even and 5 are 'imbalanced'. Shouldn't we still be looking at fixing TvP on these 'imba' maps, because Protoss limits map design so much in SC2? This is a question I want to put to discussion, not an opinion. Examples: FFE, defendable third, small main-blink in area, main not too open to air, maps not too large, compact naturals, etcetera.
On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote: funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously.
My thoughts exactly.
How is MC making money from expressing his opinion?
Because most tournament don't prioritize player's raw skills over huge personality draws (especially foreign events). MC, although skillful at the game isn't exactly someone who is "S-class". So being controversial only adds to his "personality-traits" or w/e the average poster here defines it.
Is this a bad thing? Personality is what makes these events interesting not some X player that was able to do his timing perfectly. It's cool in the beginning, but then it gets boring. Take personality expressions as a breath of fresh air. This doesn't mean someone being rude every time is justified though. There's more to that.
Financially speaking, yes.
In the spirit of the competition, no.
I don't know about you or anyone else but I want the highest form of competition in any tournaments that call themselves "premier". That's the definition of sport.
On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote: funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously.
My thoughts exactly.
How is MC making money from expressing his opinion?
Because most tournament don't prioritize player's raw skills over huge personality draws (especially foreign events). MC, although skillful at the game isn't exactly someone who is "S-class". So being controversial only adds to his "personality-traits" or w/e the average poster here defines it.
the one who is making it controversial is you. there is nothing wrong about a pro speaking out his mind, it's not like he does it avilo style either.
Never did I say anything wrong about it. But there is ALWAYS ulterior motives to anything.
On February 15 2014 22:39 ImperialFist wrote: funny how mc has done this twice in order to try to make money and some people actually treat him seriously.
My thoughts exactly.
How is MC making money from expressing his opinion?
Because most tournament don't prioritize player's raw skills over huge personality draws (especially foreign events). MC, although skillful at the game isn't exactly someone who is "S-class". So being controversial only adds to his "personality-traits" or w/e the average poster here defines it.
that's the dumbest thing i've read in a very long time. so MC's plan is to express his opinion about the maps, draw a bunch of attention so he can get invited to tournaments that way since he isn't good enough at the game and place highly enough that he gets paid. how? how's he gonna beat the what you call "s-class" players to reach a paid spot if he isn't good enough to be invited in the first place and he only got there because controversy? MC with the next level tactics, someone tell him he won't get paid just for participating in a tourney and he can't beat "s-class" players with internet posts.
^And sorry can't respond to this paragraph w/ such bad punctuation.
On February 16 2014 01:45 zelevin wrote: I wish we had like 12-15 maps from which to choose. If blizzard adds a few more map vetos, then everyone will be happy.
15 is way too much. 9 is a maximum for me. You'll never learn to play on a huge mapcount nor eill it be possible to change it around fast. 7 is fine too imo, as long as they're fine maps.
I don't like how awful the balance whiners are, but MC is missing the other crucial point for PvT. MC is a very aggressive player, so of course, he will talk more about the blink all-ins. The other problem is the late game PvT, where Protosses are slightly more favored with a stronger composition. Of course, if Terran players have better control, they still will have a chance. However, it's just that difficult for Terran players to beat Protoss in every stage of the game (even mid-game is not easy, because Protoss have photon overcharge).
Source: You can watch the Flash vs Sora game, where Flash gained a lot of momentum with his macro and aggression but lost his entire army that was trapped and flanked with storms.
Right now, Blizzard is making the right moves with the Ghost buff. Hopefully, we will see some diversity in PvT, which is why I welcome the Widow Mine buff.
I kinda agree with him but i strongly disagree when it comes to PO. IMO balance in mirror matchups should always come last. If something is fucking up the other matcups but is important for a mirror than it should be fixed. You can deal with the mirror matchup as needed from there.
Also i agree that maps are a huge problem. Having said that isn't one of the big problems with SC2 right now how hard it is to make different maps. You change even the smallest things and you end up breaking the game (mainly in the protoss matchups). Whilst i don't think that makes protoss imbalanced it says to me that big changes are needed to address this problem.
That being said, I really feel like there's more problems with TvP than just blink all-ins. Sure, the build is strong, but really the problem is that Protoss doesn't need to know what Terran is doing because photon overcharge + some form of detection means they're more or less safe until the 8-9 minute mark while Terran has to react to a huge variety of Protoss builds and all of them require different responses. It's almost impossible to tell what's happening with 100% certainty even with reaper + scans because of the denial of information with Stalker, MsC and the potential of the tech being proxied. And even if you scout the tech, just the threat of it is a big enough deal that Terran has to react, and all Protoss needs to do is not commit to the tech and the players are even once more. In games where Terran does have 100% information, they end up even or possibly even slightly ahead IMO, it's just so unlikely for this to happen currently.
Blink all-ins are just one build that adds to the problem, albiet probably the scariest option at the moment. And if we limit map design to make blink all-ins weaker, we also inherently make them worse for reapers too, making it harder for Terran to scout the plethora of options that would still be available to Protoss.
On February 15 2014 21:52 TheDwf wrote: I'm posting this because I see too many people saying Zerg is imba. ZvP = 50/50. Really 50/50. Don't blame maps or whatever… The worse player loses. Protoss that whine really don't have any shame. ZvT = I'll tell you why ZvT is so imbalanced. In terms of game balance, there's no problem, right? But in ladder maps Zerg is 65/35 vs Terran. It's really depressing for Terran. Why? It's because we have 4 maps where Brood lords are very strong. Daybreak, Akilon Wastes, Entombed Valley, Antiga. After that we have Cloud Kingdom which is one of the most favourable map for Zerg vs Terran. If you look at Whirlwind, it's 50/50. Terran have an ok time on this map. This is not about game balance, the maps for ZvT is just too good for Zerg. Before, Hellions and Ghost Snipes that swayed the game in ZvT both got nerfed. Now games where zergs easily masses up the composition without deterrence is here. I really didn't want to talk about balance whine because I'm a pro player, but People are saying that zerg players don't even try hard and win due to the race As a veteran, I feel bad for players that get all the hate and feel angry about it. Sniper and RorO didn't win GSL after they were fooling around for a week. They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying they were "patch zergs". In my eyes, the two Zergs played well and that's why they went through. As programers they really learnt how to build infests and cast fungals well. Also I see a lot of talk about nerfing Fungal but if we nerf that Zerg gets fucked. DK-nim also knows this and this is why he isn't nerfing it. Infested Terran was a good ability for 25 energy and I'm glad it got nerfed. With no balancing, just a change of maps will bring 50/50 in ZvT. I think it was maps why Zergs won last GSLs. Think about it, last season had the same balancing, but before the map changes was terran really that bad against Zerg?
This is pretty amazing.
Love MC, but I'm going to disagree with the maps. The 3 players that I've heard say that the reason for theses recent results were due to maps were Desrow, Artosis - according to Desrow, and MC. Wow they all play protoss, didn't see that coming.
If we nerf MScore vision or just the strength of blink stalkers vs Terran early game we achieve more variability than just changing the map-pool.
1) we will still be able to keep all these different maps instead of restricting map design to just maps with small surfaces for blink. We are already restricted in maps because Protoss needs to be able to wall off the natural ramp vs zerg to stay competitive.
2) we will still see blink stalker openings every now and then. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we almost never see blink stalker openings on these "balanced" maps such as frost.
The last time MC wrote about "issues of the game", he mentions nothing but how Terran is imbalanced vs Zerg. Now he is blaming the maps when clearly the fundamentals of Protoss are broken as fuck. What a disgrace from a "progamer" who is still relevant only because of his allins.
It sucks for progamers to play the strongest race. You get wins more easily, but you also get the shit. I was very happy when Hots came out and Z stopped being OP, and every one won game became huge victory by itself. I wouldn't want to be a protoss player right now. They invest a lot work in it and don't get appreciation enough. But on the other side you can't expect people to not consider balance if there are problems. The balance issues hurt everyone, the one who are losing and even ones that are winning.
And there is nothing like "matchup is balanced, just maps are wrong". But you could say "the matchup is imbalanced, and the best way how to deal with it is to change maps". You can't talk about "balance" without keeping in mind some set of maps that you play on.
I am considering to stop visiting Blizzard's official forum, the environment there have become toxic, full of hatred towards protoss players... its disgusting :S
On February 15 2014 22:43 Big J wrote: The game is being played on maps, you cannot segregate balance from maps. If the problem is restricted to only one or two maps we can very well change the mappool and consider the matchup fine. However, if the problem is appears on half the mappool because very standard features are suddenly considered broken the problem is the matchup, not the maps.
MC talks about 5maps from the current pool that favor Protoss due to two different problems Daedalus, Heavy Rain, Yeonsu, Polar Night - blink play Alterzim - too big.
Now Alterzim is probably a problem map, its size is experimentally big, its not a standard feature and if it proves to be imbalanced it is easy to avoid making such maps, just like we have done in the years past with like 1exception. But what about the other 4? They have standard features that are suddenly considered imbalanced - after changes to the units, not to the maps! If our new standard should be to avoid maps with those standard features, then there also cannot be another Cloud Kingdom, Bel'Shire Beach, Antiga Shipyard, Shakuras Plateau, Derelicted Watcher (...), because those maps have the same with the "new balance" problematic feature (a blinkabuseable ledge). Hell, Akilon and Ohana are problematic for blink rushes with this standard...
TLDR: If 50% of all maps that have ever been played are considered broken because of balance changes, then we should not consider the maps problematic but the balance changes.
That looks circular reasoning to me, Big J.
If the problem is the map, then it does not matter how many maps there are. The problem remains the map, not the match-up. In which case, one way to approach the problem is not to remove all of those maps but to diminish the number of maps which have those abusable features most strongly in a season (or tweak them in some way).
These would be Yeonsu and Heavy Rain. Taken in conjunction with map veto then you have less TvP coming down blink all-ins on those maps. This should flow into balance statistics and more importantly, ladder will be less irritating for Terran.
But, we have had these kinds of map since WOL. I'd hate to lose out on greater map diversity. The MSC provides a vision advantage that was not there in WOL and has TW (preventing re-positioning of Terran units). So, before maps are tossed (haha!) out wholesale, I'd prefer to wait until the effect of the MSC vision nerf is known (and ideally also, TW to an upgrade at Core).
While I do agree that maps have a big influence on balance, saying maps are the only issue is plain wrong.
Protoss started to win because they finally learnt how to use the tools they were given at the very beginning of HotS. They learnt to use the MScore to be extra greedy or to do super all-ins and they learnt how to open with oracles and be safe.
Of all this, the blink all-in can be dealt with though maps, I agree. The ultra greediness must be dealt with through balances patches (buff widow mines against workers to force protoss to be less greedy, nerf MScore vision to force protoss to be less greedy)
The problem with that is that almost every map is shit for terran vs protoss atm. If standard map features are now favouring one race to a prohibitive degree, then we have to look at it as an imbalance. This game does NOT need more restrictions to map making. Design every map around 14 vision, 10 sec blink all ins and now we have to have every main surrounded by air or double cliffs.
We can't just systematically eliminate potential map variety to accommodate poorly designed gameplay. We did that in WoL to keep protoss from being either broken or complete shit, and now we cannot play around with naturals and thirds at all. Sacrificing yet more map design possibilities in order to avoid having to nerf some aspects of a race is a really bad idea.
MC is wrong. Frost has a 56% winrate for Protoss vs Terran, Habitation Station has a 51% winrate (but small sample size), and Daybreak, which has a huge chasm to prevent blinking into the main from anywhere but the natural, had a 53% winrate for PvT.
Nothing related to map design or blink cooldown or MSC vision will let Terran do damage against Photon Overcharge.
On February 16 2014 04:11 Cheren wrote: MC is wrong. Frost has a 56% winrate for Protoss vs Terran, Habitation Station has a 51% winrate (but small sample size), and Daybreak, which has a huge chasm to prevent blinking into the main from anywhere but the natural, had a 53% winrate for PvT.
Nothing related to map design or blink cooldown or MSC vision will let Terran do damage against Photon Overcharge.
with a small sample size like you said that IS an even winrate
I don't think blink should be as strong a concern when making maps. When I've dabbled with making maps, all I can think about is how much stalkers can blink into main bases. I try to allow minimal access without denying it entirely, to the point where it would almost require blink queuing.
It feels like too much of a constraint, but I'm not suggesting the blink nerf happen. MSC vision is probably a good place to start. Protoss has other free scouts via sentries anyway. Sure, it can affect early game PvP, but the unit is too much a crutch, imo. 9 vision might be kind of severe, but I always felt overlord speed and queen range were too much, and Blizzard never shaved those down. Overall, I'll take it, being sympathetic to terran, and usually terran myself.
P.S. It's pretty stupid there's no overlord snipe game for early marines. That was better than watching them shoot the destructible debris at the bottom of their ramp. But then, Blizzard completely ignored a very strong argument how they were nerfing ghost snipe wrong.
On February 16 2014 03:50 Plansix wrote: MC said it, don't be a balance whiner. There may be some truth to a little imbalance, whining about it won't make you better.
Does anyone else find it kinda annoying how when protoss is fairly strong the same people who would constantly bash terran during 1-1-1 era or cry in the sad zealot fan club about how hard their race is and how underpowered they are for so long, now act as if they are the lone voices of reason and everyone else that doesn't think everything is fine is a whiner. While at the same time acting like they are so "above" anyone who complains about the game.
It's funny actually because MC is one of these people, he's probably said " terran imba" over 200 times in his life and now he acts about how its insulting to players and taking away from their hard work.I believe he also said if he played terran he'd have won numerous more GSL championships.
The hypocrisy is disgusting. Just accept that everyone complains about the game when they feel like it's imba, only one race has a 67 page fan club devoted to crying though.
On February 02 2012 21:14 Plansix wrote: Oh man, so sad zealots again. I thought this era was over. We will have to see how things shake out, but right now pvz is sort of a bummer.
On January 25 2014 10:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: The Mad Marine Fan Club just opened up for the Terrans haha.
They only have a few pages though... the sad zealots have been around much, much longer T.T
Yeah protoss have been crying the hardest and the longest since WoL, and when their race is strong they start crying about crying ~_~.
I've been thinking about this recently and I came to the conclusion maps don't matter as much in SC2 as they do in BW. I came to this conclusion for a few reasons.
First the high ground advantage in SC2 compared to BW. In BW if you were on the high ground you had an advantage. In SC2 that, of course, isn't true. If you have vision you're fighting on even keel. So ramps and ledges mean far less in SC2 compared to BW.
Second is there is far more air play in SC2 compared to BW. In BW the only real GTA threat was mutalisk. That is completely false in SC2. You may be able to make an argument Shuttle/Reaver was something similar to air play. [Edit: I meant as openers. I know Carriers and to a lesser extent BC existed in BW.]
Third is that Protoss makes their own maps. With force field and warp-in mechanic maps and terrain mean far less to Protoss. It is difficult to make an "anti-Protoss" map without it just being open and barren almost similar to Dadelus.
If what MC is saying is true he is basically admitting that Blink all-in is completely broken TvP. I doubt many people would argue that. So should we put yet another constraint on map design simply because Protoss has a build that is completely imbalanced on race's favor? I don't think the idea of "fixing it thru maps" is quite as easy in SC2 as it was in BW.
If those "imba maps" were to be removed we would go back to the mid-end WoL where every map almost had same layout, similar 3rd.
Also i love MC but he is biased as hell, when terran and zerg had their overpowered momment MC was always crying on twitter, now the situation is reverse its all good just a few maps, like protoss hasnt been dominating PvT earlier than heavy rain and the other new maps were introduced.
OP or not all those tournament with only PvP on Ro4 are boring to most of people and the viewer count is showing that.
On February 16 2014 05:05 DaRKMaTT3r wrote: If those "imba maps" were to be removed we would go back to the mid-end WoL where every map almost had same layout, similar 3rd.
Also i love MC but he is biased as hell, when terran and zerg had their overpowered momment MC was always crying on twitter, now the situation is reverse its all good just a few maps, like protoss hasnt been dominating PvT earlier than heavy rain and the other new maps were introduced.
OP or not all those tournament with only PvP on Ro4 are boring to most of people and the viewer count is showing that.
You mean viewer counts like the tripled Proleague viewer count?
On February 16 2014 05:05 DaRKMaTT3r wrote: If those "imba maps" were to be removed we would go back to the mid-end WoL where every map almost had same layout, similar 3rd.
Also i love MC but he is biased as hell, when terran and zerg had their overpowered momment MC was always crying on twitter, now the situation is reverse its all good just a few maps, like protoss hasnt been dominating PvT earlier than heavy rain and the other new maps were introduced.
OP or not all those tournament with only PvP on Ro4 are boring to most of people and the viewer count is showing that.
You mean viewer counts like the tripled Proleague viewer count?
You are compairing first Proleague where at the start the level of play was below GSL level, with a good proleague, as well its a team league where its not so player focused. Even so when flash and maru plays the view count is really high.
Im obviously talking about every non-WCS tournament, where usually it used to be a low view count at the start but when it gets to Ro8 and further the view count usually doubled and tripled. Watch the numbers of every PvP finals, most of them it was somehow similar to the start, when they didnt shrink.
What MC thought would be drastically different if he played Terran. If PvT stats were the other way around, he would be the very first pro to go vocal on balance whining.
Maps are indeed a big part of imbalances, and is not easy to make a fair main-natural-3rd design, but saying that a decent map pool will fix the game is wrong. Mech vs protoss doesn't suck beause of maps, having to open the same way all games is not due to map design, mass ravens doesn't shut down zerg because of maps.
Bad maps just make a potentialy bad game worse, that's two things to fix and we can't expect to fix both by adressing just one. And that's only for balance, not even talking about entretainement for viewers that won't watch the same game forever, even if balanced.
On February 16 2014 05:05 DaRKMaTT3r wrote: If those "imba maps" were to be removed we would go back to the mid-end WoL where every map almost had same layout, similar 3rd.
Also i love MC but he is biased as hell, when terran and zerg had their overpowered momment MC was always crying on twitter, now the situation is reverse its all good just a few maps, like protoss hasnt been dominating PvT earlier than heavy rain and the other new maps were introduced.
OP or not all those tournament with only PvP on Ro4 are boring to most of people and the viewer count is showing that.
You mean viewer counts like the tripled Proleague viewer count?
You are compairing first Proleague where at the start the level of play was below GSL level, with a good proleague, as well its a team league where its not so player focused. Even so when flash and maru plays the view count is really high.
Im obviously talking about every non-WCS tournament, where usually it used to be a low view count at the start but when it gets to Ro8 and further the view count usually doubled and tripled. Watch the numbers of every PvP finals, most of them it was somehow similar to the start, when they didnt shrink.
I don't see your point regarding Proleague. It was easily on the same level as WCS Korea last season, so the argument that the players were worse doesn't work here. Further, we're talking tripled viewership in a league that is extremely Protoss-heavy. By your logic, shouldn't the tournaments with the highest concentration of Protoss be the least watched tournaments?
* player skill * maps * tournament format * the metagame * the game
So obviously whenever there is a perceived balance concern you can deflect the conversation away from proposals to change anything that personally benefits you, by focusing on a different factor.
MC likes protoss to win, so he'll propose changing the map pool knowing this will only allow a small number of controlled changes that most likely will still leave protoss the superior race.
A protoss player defended protoss. I'm not saying protoss is imba or anything, just the fact that he is protoss make the credibility of what he said go to zero.
On February 16 2014 05:05 DaRKMaTT3r wrote: If those "imba maps" were to be removed we would go back to the mid-end WoL where every map almost had same layout, similar 3rd.
Also i love MC but he is biased as hell, when terran and zerg had their overpowered momment MC was always crying on twitter, now the situation is reverse its all good just a few maps, like protoss hasnt been dominating PvT earlier than heavy rain and the other new maps were introduced.
OP or not all those tournament with only PvP on Ro4 are boring to most of people and the viewer count is showing that.
You mean viewer counts like the tripled Proleague viewer count?
You are compairing first Proleague where at the start the level of play was below GSL level, with a good proleague, as well its a team league where its not so player focused. Even so when flash and maru plays the view count is really high.
Im obviously talking about every non-WCS tournament, where usually it used to be a low view count at the start but when it gets to Ro8 and further the view count usually doubled and tripled. Watch the numbers of every PvP finals, most of them it was somehow similar to the start, when they didnt shrink.
I don't see your point regarding Proleague. It was easily on the same level as WCS Korea last season, so the argument that the players were worse doesn't work here. Further, we're talking tripled viewership in a league that is extremely Protoss-heavy. By your logic, shouldn't the tournaments with the highest concentration of Protoss be the least watched tournaments?
You think big number of PvP matches were the cause of the increase of SPL's viewer count? There is a lot of reason for that, including better production, also AFAIK what tripled was only the korean numbers, not overall. And as i mentioned before, proleague doesnt focus on the player but on the team. I personally never cheer for the zerg players, but on proleague if the team i'm cheering for has a Zerg playere playing i cheer for him. PvP is the second least favourite matchup, there was even a poll here in teamliquid back then, maybe you enjoy PvP, but that doesn't mean the majority does.
You can easily see what i am talking about right now. When i made my last comment it was streaming Mc vs Inno which had 51Kish viewers, before that Inno vs HMarine with 45K+. Classic and MC are pretty much as good as innovation but somehow the views dropped down to 35,5K. PvP is just not as enjoyable for the majority thats a fact and i don't see how SPL "korean" numbers increasing would change that.
On February 16 2014 03:50 Plansix wrote: MC said it, don't be a balance whiner. There may be some truth to a little imbalance, whining about it won't make you better.
Does anyone else find it kinda annoying how when protoss is fairly strong the same people who would constantly bash terran during 1-1-1 era or cry in the sad zealot fan club about how hard their race is and how underpowered they are for so long, now act as if they are the lone voices of reason and everyone else that doesn't think everything is fine is a whiner. While at the same time acting like they are so "above" anyone who complains about the game.
It's funny actually because MC is one of these people, he's probably said " terran imba" over 200 times in his life and now he acts about how its insulting to players and taking away from their hard work.I believe he also said if he played terran he'd have won numerous more GSL championships.
The hypocrisy is disgusting. Just accept that everyone complains about the game when they feel like it's imba, only one race has a 67 page fan club devoted to crying though.
On February 02 2012 21:14 Plansix wrote: Oh man, so sad zealots again. I thought this era was over. We will have to see how things shake out, but right now pvz is sort of a bummer.
On February 16 2014 03:50 Plansix wrote: MC said it, don't be a balance whiner. There may be some truth to a little imbalance, whining about it won't make you better.
Does anyone else find it kinda annoying how when protoss is fairly strong the same people who would constantly bash terran during 1-1-1 era or cry in the sad zealot fan club about how hard their race is and how underpowered they are for so long, now act as if they are the lone voices of reason and everyone else that doesn't think everything is fine is a whiner. While at the same time acting like they are so "above" anyone who complains about the game.
It's funny actually because MC is one of these people, he's probably said " terran imba" over 200 times in his life and now he acts about how its insulting to players and taking away from their hard work.I believe he also said if he played terran he'd have won numerous more GSL championships.
The hypocrisy is disgusting. Just accept that everyone complains about the game when they feel like it's imba, only one race has a 67 page fan club devoted to crying though.
On February 02 2012 21:14 Plansix wrote: Oh man, so sad zealots again. I thought this era was over. We will have to see how things shake out, but right now pvz is sort of a bummer.
On January 25 2014 10:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: The Mad Marine Fan Club just opened up for the Terrans haha.
They only have a few pages though... the sad zealots have been around much, much longer T.T
Yeah protoss have been crying the hardest and the longest since WoL, and when their race is strong they start crying about crying ~_~.
To be fair, I think MC may have been motivated (if I am correct with the dates) with the "fuck Protoss" calls from the crowd at yesterday's IEM. This was during the Dear v Jjakji series. It may have been that the guy was drunk but that was uncalled for and insulting to Dear as he played out his set. MC was at hand during that set, so I wonder if this article is a response to that.
Secondly, dude, the Sad Zealot club was more ironic than anything. Sure there was also whining there which was checked when it could be (Plexa came in once or twice and said, "This is a sad zealot fanclub, not a balance whine thread"). But there were also quite a few lols and an attempt to find levity and humour during what were dark times for the P race.
MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
Lol... You can blame the maps all you want, but the fact of the matter is that PROTOSS is forcing map design. It isn't that protoss is favored on these maps. no, its just the few maps where it is 50/50 favor terran by doing absurd things like making a main that can't be blinked into.
Seriously, if we balance the maps around protoss, for one: Every. Single. Map. would be the same. They'd all have the exact same features to "balance" out protoss. HELL, why even have a variety of maps. We could just make one map and "balance" it. There we go, welcome to league of starcraft, same map every fucking time, then no one can complain about "map balance".
Instead of nerfing what is broken you want it so that on "certain" maps it cant be used or isn't viable at all. That is stupid. Second, we'd just see stupid stuff like scrap station where one map is so obviously favored for one race that it just gets vetoed.
not sure what zerg whiners MC is talking about. is he hanging out in twitch chat?
seems most players, both zerg and protoss, agree that there are good and bad things about the zvp matchup. there's a bigger variety of timings and styles than other matchups, which often makes it more exciting to watch, and i like the way the two races interact. however... as a player, the insane hardcounters and incredibly steep punishment for not having perfect play can be frustrating for both sides (i main zerg and regularly offrace protoss, pvz is easily my worst MU as P)
-managing a zerg ground army isn't fun and it often isn't effective because of how many tools protoss has to shape the battlefield and create a favorable engagement no matter how hard zerg tries to dance around and bait spells. forcefield + timewarp + storm makes using roaches and hydralisks feel like playing flappy bird. this leaves zerg with the options of either hitting a really tight timing that usually has to win the game (roach/hydra/corruptor all in, roach/hydra/viper, ling hydra into muta, etc) or just turtling into swarm hosts, which almost everyone agrees is a sad and tired playstyle. because protoss is so strong defensively and a bit vulnerable offensively before the deathball gets up, there's far more incentive to go swarm hosts
-being cannon rushed isn't fun. i don't care about the cliches people repeat that it's "a legit strategy," that "you do what it takes to win," etc. i'm not disputing that. but it's not fun to defend or to watch.
-if you're not a very very very high level protoss player, dynamic and aggressive styles (gateway aggression, mass phoenix, etc.) provide much much less incentive in terms of results than standard void/colo/templar turtling, similar to the reasons zerg is encouraged to turtle. both races are to blame for the state of lategame pvz
-because of the way zerg production is different from protoss production, game deciding moments can hinge on the tiniest margins of error, such as missing a forcefield at your natural wall. as a zerg player, it's annoying to know that many forms of aggression are simply only viable if protoss makes a mistake or isn't paying attention. lack of ability to make frontal assaults work is another thing contributing to the dominance of swarm host play. by the same token, as a protoss player it can be extremely disheartening to insta-lose because of a missed forcefield that lets zerglings into your base before you're really allowed to have any units with standard play. yes, i realize small margins of error raise the skill ceiling, but sc2 is a long game. i'm investing 5-30 minutes in each game, including many minutes of early game when everything i do is fucking identical every time if i'm playing standard. that's what makes people rage. didn't scout muta? missed a forcefield? didn't scout cannon rush? didn't find that pylon? didn't scout DT? you're dead, you just wasted 5+ minutes of your life
as a zerg player i don't think zvp is imbalanced or bad. but i think it's deeply broken. do i have a magical fix? no. but that doesn't change the way it feels to play. in zvt, being behind is very bad but recoverable. in zvp it doesn't feel like there is any such grey area or any reason to be inventive or try new styles because both races are just so fucking good defensively if they're played correctly
tl;dr: it's incredibly lazy to imply that anyone who has a problem with a matchup is a balance whiner, unwillingn to blame themselves for losses or unwilling to improve. there are issues with both pvz and pvt that make a lot of people have a bad time with the game, issues which have developed over time and made a lot of players, high and low level, change their thoughts and analysis of those matchups. it's actually kind of rude of MC to just wipe away an entire community dialogue by essentially saying "u mad, get good bro"
Also, it's just a fact that Protoss has the most the most cheesy builds that can straight up end in a build order win when the opponent reacts in the wrong way (Proxy Oracle/ DT), whereas Toss itself is pretty save against every push because of Photon Cannon, MSC and Forcefields.
I'm not saying Toss is overpowered if both players play their races up to the limit, I just feel like if you put the same work into all three races, you will advance furthest playing Protoss.
I don't think any zerg is complaining about win rates in pvz, what they dislike is the sheer amount of abusive strategies they have to put up with which are more than ever, and on top of that the only option zerg has is to aim for a 3hour swarmhost lategame which is fucking soul destroying.
Going into what MC said; We have 7 reasonably different maps in the pool, of which 2 are even and 5 are 'imbalanced'. Shouldn't we still be looking at fixing TvP on these 'imba' maps, because Protoss limits map design so much in SC2? This is a question I want to put to discussion, not an opinion. Examples: FFE, defendable third, small main-blink in area, main not too open to air, maps not too large, compact naturals, etcetera.
Found a couple of quotes in this thread that i think hits the nail on the head. This is why people are upset and this is why we shouldn't blame the maps for current issues with protoss.
On February 16 2014 03:50 Plansix wrote: MC said it, don't be a balance whiner. There may be some truth to a little imbalance, whining about it won't make you better.
Does anyone else find it kinda annoying how when protoss is fairly strong the same people who would constantly bash terran during 1-1-1 era or cry in the sad zealot fan club about how hard their race is and how underpowered they are for so long, now act as if they are the lone voices of reason and everyone else that doesn't think everything is fine is a whiner. While at the same time acting like they are so "above" anyone who complains about the game.
It's funny actually because MC is one of these people, he's probably said " terran imba" over 200 times in his life and now he acts about how its insulting to players and taking away from their hard work.I believe he also said if he played terran he'd have won numerous more GSL championships.
The hypocrisy is disgusting. Just accept that everyone complains about the game when they feel like it's imba, only one race has a 67 page fan club devoted to crying though.
On February 02 2012 21:14 Plansix wrote: Oh man, so sad zealots again. I thought this era was over. We will have to see how things shake out, but right now pvz is sort of a bummer.
On January 25 2014 10:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: The Mad Marine Fan Club just opened up for the Terrans haha.
They only have a few pages though... the sad zealots have been around much, much longer T.T
Yeah protoss have been crying the hardest and the longest since WoL, and when their race is strong they start crying about crying ~_~.
To be fair, I think MC may have been motivated (if I am correct with the dates) with the "fuck Protoss" calls from the crowd at yesterday's IEM. This was during the Dear v Jjakji series. It may have been that the guy was drunk but that was uncalled for and insulting to Dear as he played out his set. MC was at hand during that set, so I wonder if this article is a response to that.
Secondly, dude, the Sad Zealot club was more ironic than anything. Sure there was also whining there which was checked when it could be (Plexa came in once or twice and said, "This is a sad zealot fanclub, not a balance whine thread"). But there were also quite a few lols and an attempt to find levity and humour during what were dark times for the P race.
that guy in the audience was part of the community and the viewership for tournaments and he was entitled to express his opinion. it was vulgar, but there was nothing invalid about it. you can protest corruption in society by writing an essay or by marching and chanting on the street. obviously sc2 isn't as important or serious, but it's the same basic idea. he yelled out because there was a community of people behind the feeling he was expressing. if these issues weren't as bad as most people think they are, he would have simply been dismissed as a drunken idiot. but in reality he was just giving a voice to an idea that has been gaining steam for a long time now. you can't excuse MC's dumb comments by saying "oh, some guy yelled at a tournament and it was rude, so MC was frustrated." MC gets hella paid from SC2, the "fuck protoss" dude doesn't
The idea of balancing through maps when there are no stand out imbalanced units is good, I remember times during the game where a change of maps fixed some glaring balance issues.
David Kim should have a section on map balance in each of his Balance Note posts.
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
Yea Diestar's opinion is worth more because he plays macro games unlike the cheesy MC!
I like the guy, but MC can be a huge hypocrite. He was well known for balance whinning about zerg back in the day. Granted it might have been justified, but still there is no reason to act so high and mighty about it.
the difference between broodwar balance and sc2 balance is that if you cried in broodwar noone gave a shit you just had to suck it up, if you whine in sc2 u just gotta cry loud enough and bunker build time gets increased
On February 16 2014 06:20 illidanx wrote: A protoss player defended protoss. I'm not saying protoss is imba or anything, just the fact that he is protoss make the credibility of what he said go to zero.
Sad seeing everyone hating on MC and calling him biased. Back in 2010 before he won a GSL, Protoss was doing really badly and people were asking for buffs. MC said in an interview that Protoss players just need to love their units and no change is necessary.
On February 16 2014 11:13 Parcelleus wrote: Im so unsurprised by the whine responses here.
Using logical fallacy to ignore MC's point shows how weak the anti-MC comments are.
MC MC ALWAYS MC !!! xD
i like how you claimed "logical fallacy" without actually quoting any posts or providing any counterpoints
ironically you're doing the same thing MC is - writing off people's opinions as "whining" because you're too lazy to actually engage in a mature, two-way discussion
On February 16 2014 11:13 Parcelleus wrote: Im so unsurprised by the whine responses here.
Using logical fallacy to ignore MC's point shows how weak the anti-MC comments are.
MC MC ALWAYS MC !!! xD
i like how you claimed "logical fallacy" without actually quoting any posts or providing any counterpoints
ironically you're doing the same thing MC is - writing off people's opinions as "whining" because you're too lazy to actually engage in a mature, two-way discussion
On February 16 2014 11:13 Parcelleus wrote: Im so unsurprised by the whine responses here.
Using logical fallacy to ignore MC's point shows how weak the anti-MC comments are.
MC MC ALWAYS MC !!! xD
i like how you claimed "logical fallacy" without actually quoting any posts or providing any counterpoints
ironically you're doing the same thing MC is - writing off people's opinions as "whining" because you're too lazy to actually engage in a mature, two-way discussion
Whine it up.
What is your actual argument against MC's post ?
If you read the OP, you would see that this thread has no balance discussion allowed..
On February 16 2014 11:13 Parcelleus wrote: Im so unsurprised by the whine responses here.
Using logical fallacy to ignore MC's point shows how weak the anti-MC comments are.
MC MC ALWAYS MC !!! xD
i like how you claimed "logical fallacy" without actually quoting any posts or providing any counterpoints
ironically you're doing the same thing MC is - writing off people's opinions as "whining" because you're too lazy to actually engage in a mature, two-way discussion
Whine it up.
What is your actual argument against MC's post ?
If you read the OP, you would see that this thread has no balance discussion allowed..
On February 15 2014 23:28 Dwayn wrote: MC is wrong, it's not just the map and PvZ is not 50/50. Not too surprising that he would be biased.
PvZ is kind of ~50% everywhere. Proleague, Code A (if you eliminate all the old Deadalus games, else it's a little Zergfavored), Code S, aligulac, ladder.
Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS.
Yep it's 50%, and in fact Zerg and Protoss are in fact even at the top (code S distribution). It's just that the infamous "vocal minority" of the community has devolved into endless whining and screaming at every possible reason, wether that's justified or not, like never before. It's quite saddening honestly.
The reason the whine happens is because blizz fucked up the MU so hard. I played a game the other day where I(zerg) was on 4 base against 2 for the protoss on habitation (one was gold). So he turtles until he gets a voidray immortal collosus deathball with sentry and stalker sprinkled in. I had made hydra to deal with the voidrays initially, then made 10-15 spines along with being maxed on hydra roach with some lings. So he trots out of his base, stomps my spines and whole army then runs through my corruptor roach max that was rallying out to meet his army. I can't even begin to describe how frustrating it is to have this happen, something that would never happen in BW or Starbow. Now, I know I could have killed my own units to make shit hosts and maybe defend, but I really shouldn't have to. I imagine it is equally frustrating for protoss to have everything yanked into endless waves of locusts when the zerg is on 2 base and the toss is on 4 and still lose. These situations are why people are complaining, they just think it's somehow a balance issue when it's actually just a huge game flaw.
The English translation makes it sound like MC is being high and mighty...but in Korean it reads more like an unbias argument; against race bashing and for better map design.
If people think Toss are sooo easy to grand master - try it. Toss is not an easy race - sure 4gate can get you to diamond, but so can proxy rax and 10 pools. (Awaiting hate on that comment)
There is also something happening at the moment that the cry babies and Blizzard may not have noticed or believed was possible...Terrans are evolving. IEM Cologne is a good point in case.
Note:
Twitch chat is cancerous, disgusting, bigoted, racist, elitist and the height of puerility. Avoid at all costs.
Much love to SC2 and the people appreciating the game and skill of the players - peace.
On February 16 2014 06:20 illidanx wrote: A protoss player defended protoss. I'm not saying protoss is imba or anything, just the fact that he is protoss make the credibility of what he said go to zero.
But a Terran player saying Terran is too weak is totally fair! I prefer not to read into pro players comments much because they have a vested, monetary interest in the game. If Protoss is weaker, it's harder for him to win and succeed. Same goes for literally any pro player who talks about balance. Stats and factual evidence will always be infinitely more useful than any pro players opinion.
some of you say MC is protoss so that automatically invalidates his arguments since he is biased towards his own race?
what?
so i guess you think that ALL Terrans cant comment on the PvT matchup either then since they would also be biased towards their own race? all Protoss and terrans have zero credibility in their own matchup?
that leaves what... Zerg players are the only ones that can have credible and useful, valid, and unbiased comments about PvT??
On February 16 2014 14:16 mikumegurine wrote: some of you say MC is protoss so that automatically invalidates his arguments since he is biased towards his own race?
what?
so i guess you think that ALL Terrans cant comment on the PvT matchup either then since they would also be biased towards their own race? all Protoss and terrans have zero credibility in their own matchup?
that leaves what... Zerg players are the only ones that can have credible and useful, valid, and unbiased comments about PvT??
On February 16 2014 14:16 mikumegurine wrote: some of you say MC is protoss so that automatically invalidates his arguments since he is biased towards his own race?
what?
so i guess you think that ALL Terrans cant comment on the PvT matchup either then since they would also be biased towards their own race? all Protoss and terrans have zero credibility in their own matchup?
that leaves what... Zerg players are the only ones that can have credible and useful, valid, and unbiased comments about PvT??
Or the viewers.
only zerg viewers and zerg players then? since by their reasoning Viewers who play terran or protoss are inherently biased and thus have zero credibility regarding the PvT matchup
On February 16 2014 14:16 mikumegurine wrote: some of you say MC is protoss so that automatically invalidates his arguments since he is biased towards his own race?
what?
so i guess you think that ALL Terrans cant comment on the PvT matchup either then since they would also be biased towards their own race? all Protoss and terrans have zero credibility in their own matchup?
that leaves what... Zerg players are the only ones that can have credible and useful, valid, and unbiased comments about PvT??
Or the viewers.
only zerg viewers and zerg players then? since by their reasoning Viewers who play terran or protoss are inherently biased and thus have zero credibility regarding the PvT matchup
a viewer can play more than 1 races or does not even play SC2 like me. Even if a user play either Protoss or Terran, they could have a much more objective view than the ones involved. Or it could be a Terran Pro who comes up and says the match up is fine.
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
Jesus cloud I don't know where you get off talking down to mc, or how you could possibly imagine that your own balance opinions carry more weight than his. Get in touch with reality.
That being said, I really feel like there's more problems with TvP than just blink all-ins. Sure, the build is strong, but really the problem is that Protoss doesn't need to know what Terran is doing because photon overcharge + some form of detection means they're more or less safe until the 8-9 minute mark while Terran has to react to a huge variety of Protoss builds and all of them require different responses. It's almost impossible to tell what's happening with 100% certainty even with reaper + scans because of the denial of information with Stalker, MsC and the potential of the tech being proxied. And even if you scout the tech, just the threat of it is a big enough deal that Terran has to react, and all Protoss needs to do is not commit to the tech and the players are even once more. In games where Terran does have 100% information, they end up even or possibly even slightly ahead IMO, it's just so unlikely for this to happen currently.
Blink all-ins are just one build that adds to the problem, albiet probably the scariest option at the moment. And if we limit map design to make blink all-ins weaker, we also inherently make them worse for reapers too, making it harder for Terran to scout the plethora of options that would still be available to Protoss.
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
Most hilarious thing I've read on these forums. 10/10 excellent joke.
Anyway, the Protoss hate is getting really stupid. It's way way way worse than when people were whining about GOMTvT or Broodlord/Infestor. It's devolved into personal attacks and extreme vitriol that is worse than almost anything seen in SC2 history. It's really disappointing, and I think you might see more prominent players speak up about it.
I also gotta say I'm really tired when even commentators/tournament hosts are getting on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon. It just adds fuel to the fire =/
Balance is a pretty subjective topic, and can be very different at different levels of play. Anecdotally, as a diamond level random player I find Protoss to be by far the easiest, despite the fact that I've probably put the least effort into improving it. I don't think this has any bearing on what MC is discussing however. For the vast majority of players balance is not a particularly relevant topic. It's not like game balance is keeping random plats out of the GSL.
Btw if anybody wants to try a super imba game they should play brood war. Toss is soooo much easier at low levels (if only because macroing is easier when your units are expensive and take longer to build.
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
Do you say that because you feel you play out stronger in a macro game? Because you've been largely irrelevant and im interested in why you feel MC's winning strategies put him in a position on discredibility when it comes to balance.
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
Most hilarious thing I've read on these forums. 10/10 excellent joke.
Anyway, the Protoss hate is getting really stupid. It's way way way worse than when people were whining about GOMTvT or Broodlord/Infestor. It's devolved into personal attacks and extreme vitriol that is worse than almost anything seen in SC2 history. It's really disappointing, and I think you might see more prominent players speak up about it.
I also gotta say I'm really tired when even commentators/tournament hosts are getting on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon. It just adds fuel to the fire =/
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
Most hilarious thing I've read on these forums. 10/10 excellent joke.
Anyway, the Protoss hate is getting really stupid. It's way way way worse than when people were whining about GOMTvT or Broodlord/Infestor. It's devolved into personal attacks and extreme vitriol that is worse than almost anything seen in SC2 history. It's really disappointing, and I think you might see more prominent players speak up about it.
I also gotta say I'm really tired when even commentators/tournament hosts are getting on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon. It just adds fuel to the fire =/
Everybody gets on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon because TvP is a mess (even statistics show it while Terran has a laughable amount of games played), and Terran is the most fun race to watch, so people hate.
Agree with MC completely on the ZvP thing. Really, a Zerg player has no right to say Protoss is OP.
Although I think the problem with PvT is a little bit more serious than just bad maps. Maps definitely played a very important role, but there's more to it.
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
Most hilarious thing I've read on these forums. 10/10 excellent joke.
Anyway, the Protoss hate is getting really stupid. It's way way way worse than when people were whining about GOMTvT or Broodlord/Infestor. It's devolved into personal attacks and extreme vitriol that is worse than almost anything seen in SC2 history. It's really disappointing, and I think you might see more prominent players speak up about it.
I also gotta say I'm really tired when even commentators/tournament hosts are getting on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon. It just adds fuel to the fire =/
Everybody gets on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon because TvP is a mess (even statistics show it while Terran has a laughable amount of games played), and Terran is the most fun race to watch, so people hate.
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
Most hilarious thing I've read on these forums. 10/10 excellent joke.
Anyway, the Protoss hate is getting really stupid. It's way way way worse than when people were whining about GOMTvT or Broodlord/Infestor. It's devolved into personal attacks and extreme vitriol that is worse than almost anything seen in SC2 history. It's really disappointing, and I think you might see more prominent players speak up about it.
I also gotta say I'm really tired when even commentators/tournament hosts are getting on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon. It just adds fuel to the fire =/
Everybody gets on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon because TvP is a mess (even statistics show it while Terran has a laughable amount of games played), and Terran is the most fun race to watch, so people hate.
so completely subjective...
So completely kinda supported by the fact almost every popular game/best of the year includes Terran...
Terran makes for chaos because both players have shit die and think on their feet. P follows a set playbook and not a lot of deviation is forced; popular Protoss games are all ins that equalize or Hero who plays a Terran esque style.
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
Most hilarious thing I've read on these forums. 10/10 excellent joke.
Anyway, the Protoss hate is getting really stupid. It's way way way worse than when people were whining about GOMTvT or Broodlord/Infestor. It's devolved into personal attacks and extreme vitriol that is worse than almost anything seen in SC2 history. It's really disappointing, and I think you might see more prominent players speak up about it.
I also gotta say I'm really tired when even commentators/tournament hosts are getting on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon. It just adds fuel to the fire =/
Everybody gets on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon because TvP is a mess (even statistics show it while Terran has a laughable amount of games played), and Terran is the most fun race to watch, so people hate.
so completely subjective...
So completely kinda supported by the fact almost every popular game/best of the year includes Terran...
Terran makes for chaos because both players have shit die and think on their feet. P follows a set playbook and not a lot of deviation is forced; popular Protoss games are all ins that equalize or Hero who plays a Terran esque style.
And I completely hate it when people do it like it's the players' faults. Like posts that go "I wish (this player) didn't win because his race is so fucking boring to watch" and the thousands of jokes out there that treat protoss players like babies because of the perceived "easiness". I can understand terran and zerg players preferring to watch their own race, and there is no need to always revile and insult protoss players because of how their race is inherently. It's not the fault of the players, blame the game. Similarly I don't blame zergs for going mass SH now- it's boring, but really, what do you do when it's the most effective tool at your disposal?
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
And yet we frequently get mid tier pros like you constantly balance whining and BMing opponents out of games. Furthermore, anyone who actually watches MC knows that he is very much capable in the lategame, and playing all ins is just part of his style. Is it okay for you to balance whine because you play macro games only? Does your balance whine hold way more value than MC? I wonder.
I really don't want to call out pro gamers, since they clearly invest part of their lives to entertain us (even if it's for the money) but really, saying incredibly moronic statements such as the above just gets to me.
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
Most hilarious thing I've read on these forums. 10/10 excellent joke.
Anyway, the Protoss hate is getting really stupid. It's way way way worse than when people were whining about GOMTvT or Broodlord/Infestor. It's devolved into personal attacks and extreme vitriol that is worse than almost anything seen in SC2 history. It's really disappointing, and I think you might see more prominent players speak up about it.
I also gotta say I'm really tired when even commentators/tournament hosts are getting on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon. It just adds fuel to the fire =/
Everybody gets on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon because TvP is a mess (even statistics show it while Terran has a laughable amount of games played), and Terran is the most fun race to watch, so people hate.
so completely subjective...
So completely kinda supported by the fact almost every popular game/best of the year includes Terran...
Terran makes for chaos because both players have shit die and think on their feet. P follows a set playbook and not a lot of deviation is forced; popular Protoss games are all ins that equalize or Hero who plays a Terran esque style.
And I completely hate it when people do it like it's the players' faults. Like posts that go "I wish (this player) didn't win because his race is so fucking boring to watch" and the thousands of jokes out there that treat protoss players like babies because of the perceived "easiness". I can understand terran and zerg players preferring to watch their own race, and there is no need to always revile and insult protoss players because of how their race is inherently. It's not the fault of the players, blame the game. Similarly I don't blame zergs for going mass SH now- it's boring, but really, what do you do when it's the most effective tool at your disposal?
So, what exactly are you getting at..?
Don't blame the player, blame the game, but if we blame the game for there to be way too few Terrans and too many protosses it is whining :D? Just seeing less of the one and a bit more of the other does a lot for viewers, as well as getting rid of Swarm Host and the Protoss deathball/Raven cloud that forces them.
But couldn't you make the same argument for Zerg in end WOL? Maps were getting bigger and bigger so Zerg, with it's Infestors, was able to do the things it did. You could have said , hei, it's not Zerg, it's the maps; if we make way smaller maps then Zerg is fixed.
I don't know, i'd rather not have so many restrictions on maps then we already have just because one race looks designed by a 10 year old. Interesting discussion though.
MC: Plz don't nerf my precious race..It's only the bad maps...LOL. Nobody believes you bro! Even DK is out of excuses. The funniest thing is Protoss players complaining about widow mines (one of the most useless unit in TvP).
On February 16 2014 16:45 Sapphire.lux wrote: But couldn't you make the same argument for Zerg in end WOL? Maps were getting bigger and bigger so Zerg, with it's Infestors, was able to do the things it did. You could have said , hei, it's not Zerg, it's the maps; if we make way smaller maps then Zerg is fixed.
I don't know, i'd rather not have so many restrictions on maps then we already have just because one race looks designed by a 10 year old. Interesting discussion though.
Agreed, so much.
BTW, Zerd spiraled out of control with the queen patch and being able to open with a really cheap catch all defense. Zerg didn't actually like Whirlwind for example.
On February 16 2014 01:48 SC2Toastie wrote: Going into what MC said; We have 7 reasonably different maps in the pool, of which 2 are even and 5 are 'imbalanced'. Shouldn't we still be looking at fixing TvP on these 'imba' maps, because Protoss limits map design so much in SC2? This is a question I want to put to discussion, not an opinion. Examples: FFE, defendable third, small main-blink in area, main not too open to air, maps not too large, compact naturals, etcetera.
On February 15 2014 21:52 TheDwf wrote: I'm posting this because I see too many people saying Zerg is imba. ZvP = 50/50. Really 50/50. Don't blame maps or whatever… The worse player loses. Protoss that whine really don't have any shame. ZvT = I'll tell you why ZvT is so imbalanced. In terms of game balance, there's no problem, right? But in ladder maps Zerg is 65/35 vs Terran. It's really depressing for Terran. Why? It's because we have 4 maps where Brood lords are very strong. Daybreak, Akilon Wastes, Entombed Valley, Antiga. After that we have Cloud Kingdom which is one of the most favourable map for Zerg vs Terran. If you look at Whirlwind, it's 50/50. Terran have an ok time on this map. This is not about game balance, the maps for ZvT is just too good for Zerg. Before, Hellions and Ghost Snipes that swayed the game in ZvT both got nerfed. Now games where zergs easily masses up the composition without deterrence is here. I really didn't want to talk about balance whine because I'm a pro player, but People are saying that zerg players don't even try hard and win due to the race As a veteran, I feel bad for players that get all the hate and feel angry about it. Sniper and RorO didn't win GSL after they were fooling around for a week. They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying they were "patch zergs". In my eyes, the two Zergs played well and that's why they went through. As programers they really learnt how to build infests and cast fungals well. Also I see a lot of talk about nerfing Fungal but if we nerf that Zerg gets fucked. DK-nim also knows this and this is why he isn't nerfing it. Infested Terran was a good ability for 25 energy and I'm glad it got nerfed. With no balancing, just a change of maps will bring 50/50 in ZvT. I think it was maps why Zergs won last GSLs. Think about it, last season had the same balancing, but before the map changes was terran really that bad against Zerg?
Perfect Post. There can always be reasoning as to why one race is winning more then others consistently. When Terran was appearing/winning in tournaments most often the reasons were : Terran players are just better, WoL just came out so most people pick Terran, Maps are Terran favored, etc.
Zerg had the same situation. Looking back everyone agrees that BL / Infestor was OP. At the time it was debated heavily, with stats and arguments "explaining" how its really ok.
I feel like that is the situation with protoss right now. Looking back no one will argue about protoss being OP in this period. From my observations they seem to be consistently in higher numbers in almost every tournament. Just like Terran was during its time, and also zerg during BL infestor.
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
Most hilarious thing I've read on these forums. 10/10 excellent joke.
Anyway, the Protoss hate is getting really stupid. It's way way way worse than when people were whining about GOMTvT or Broodlord/Infestor. It's devolved into personal attacks and extreme vitriol that is worse than almost anything seen in SC2 history. It's really disappointing, and I think you might see more prominent players speak up about it.
I also gotta say I'm really tired when even commentators/tournament hosts are getting on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon. It just adds fuel to the fire =/
Everybody gets on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon because TvP is a mess (even statistics show it while Terran has a laughable amount of games played), and Terran is the most fun race to watch, so people hate.
so completely subjective...
So completely kinda supported by the fact almost every popular game/best of the year includes Terran...
Terran makes for chaos because both players have shit die and think on their feet. P follows a set playbook and not a lot of deviation is forced; popular Protoss games are all ins that equalize or Hero who plays a Terran esque style.
And I completely hate it when people do it like it's the players' faults. Like posts that go "I wish (this player) didn't win because his race is so fucking boring to watch" and the thousands of jokes out there that treat protoss players like babies because of the perceived "easiness". I can understand terran and zerg players preferring to watch their own race, and there is no need to always revile and insult protoss players because of how their race is inherently. It's not the fault of the players, blame the game. Similarly I don't blame zergs for going mass SH now- it's boring, but really, what do you do when it's the most effective tool at your disposal?
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
And yet we frequently get mid tier pros like you constantly balance whining and BMing opponents out of games. Furthermore, anyone who actually watches MC knows that he is very much capable in the lategame, and playing all ins is just part of his style. Is it okay for you to balance whine because you play macro games only? Does your balance whine hold way more value than MC? I wonder.
I really don't want to call out pro gamers, since they clearly invest part of their lives to entertain us (even if it's for the money) but really, saying incredibly moronic statements such as the above just gets to me.
Man, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you just said, especially the first bit. It's exactly how I feel things are these days.
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
Most hilarious thing I've read on these forums. 10/10 excellent joke.
Anyway, the Protoss hate is getting really stupid. It's way way way worse than when people were whining about GOMTvT or Broodlord/Infestor. It's devolved into personal attacks and extreme vitriol that is worse than almost anything seen in SC2 history. It's really disappointing, and I think you might see more prominent players speak up about it.
I also gotta say I'm really tired when even commentators/tournament hosts are getting on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon. It just adds fuel to the fire =/
The writing is on the wall dude. If this many people / pro's are complaining about it, it has to mean something.
On February 16 2014 16:45 Sapphire.lux wrote: But couldn't you make the same argument for Zerg in end WOL? Maps were getting bigger and bigger so Zerg, with it's Infestors, was able to do the things it did. You could have said , hei, it's not Zerg, it's the maps; if we make way smaller maps then Zerg is fixed.
I don't know, i'd rather not have so many restrictions on maps then we already have just because one race looks designed by a 10 year old. Interesting discussion though.
Stats may tell a different story, but by the end of WoL where zergs had completely mastered the Infestor/BL style, I think the bigger maps were the only ones terran had any kind of chance on vs zerg, albeit a low chance. like that huge map (Atlantis spaceship I think, memory is lacking)where you could seal the only entrances off and camp to ravens/bcs etc or the occasional game on very open maps like whirlwind where the terran could evade the slow zerg army to take out expos and maybe get lucky with a huge flank/arc and take out the death ball. Can remember Polt and Ryung pulling off such feats once or twice.
On February 16 2014 16:45 Sapphire.lux wrote: But couldn't you make the same argument for Zerg in end WOL? Maps were getting bigger and bigger so Zerg, with it's Infestors, was able to do the things it did. You could have said , hei, it's not Zerg, it's the maps; if we make way smaller maps then Zerg is fixed.
I don't know, i'd rather not have so many restrictions on maps then we already have just because one race looks designed by a 10 year old. Interesting discussion though.
Stats may tell a different story, but by the end of WoL where zergs had completely mastered the Infestor/BL style, I think the bigger maps were the only ones terran had any kind of chance on vs zerg, albeit a low chance. like that huge map (Atlantis spaceship I think, memory is lacking)where you could seal the only entrances off and camp to ravens/bcs etc or the occasional game on very open maps like whirlwind where the terran could evade the slow zerg army to take out expos and maybe get lucky with a huge flank/arc and take out the death ball. Can remember Polt and Ryung pulling off such feats once or twice.
You don't mean metropolis?
Atlantis Spaceship was also H U G E. Both maps allowed Terran to try this.
of course he has a professional interest in keeping protoss competitive, that aside it is probably right that better maps would help balance TvP, but i still hope blizzard tries to equalize skill ceiling across the races and diversifies the game as much as possible.
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
Most hilarious thing I've read on these forums. 10/10 excellent joke.
Anyway, the Protoss hate is getting really stupid. It's way way way worse than when people were whining about GOMTvT or Broodlord/Infestor. It's devolved into personal attacks and extreme vitriol that is worse than almost anything seen in SC2 history. It's really disappointing, and I think you might see more prominent players speak up about it.
I also gotta say I'm really tired when even commentators/tournament hosts are getting on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon. It just adds fuel to the fire =/
The writing is on the wall dude. If this many people / pro's are complaining about it, it has to mean something.
So that means every idiot on the forums is allowed to spew shit like "You're a fucking terrible waste of life for playing Protoss, get cancer."?
Pros expressing concern about balance is one thing, but the massive circlejerking hate train to the point that Protoss players feel embarrassed for the race they like to play is not acceptable.
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
On February 16 2014 17:31 xsnac wrote: if you think a bit .. cloud is right . MC used to call the amulet remove really bad and IMBA . And even last night most of his stuff were timings
Damn MC for having his own specific style! Bring out the pitchforks! WE NEED EVERYBODY TO PLAY THE SAME!
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
didn't you retire
And the fact that he retired forbid him to give his opinion ?
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
didn't you retire
And the fact that he retired forbid him to give his opinion ?
No, but it makes it really funny when he calls MCs opinion irrelevant
On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote: MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game. I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.
didn't you retire
And the fact that he retired forbid him to give his opinion ?
No, but it makes it really funny when he calls MCs opinion irrelevant
especially when we now that he is perfectly capable of playing late game macro, but he prefers to play with timings because that is what protoss is good at.
On February 16 2014 18:56 Nebuchad wrote: I don't know why it's so hard to see the difference between "being sad that someone lost" and "being sad that someone won".
Going out on a limb here... being sad that someone won is not acceptable in your eyes?
I think Zerg hates protoss because protoss have nearly always the initiative in the MU. If Zerg loses to Protoss after an all-in, he will thinks : It's imbalance, if i do as a zerg an all-in vs Protoss he only has to FF the ramp and activate photon overcharge, while me, to defend protoss i have to scout perfectly the all-in which comes to get the perfect army composition, and even with it protoss can win anyways if i don't take the perfect fight, because FF cut my army/my renforcement without i can do anything, and i don't even have the defender avantage cause warpgate.
So even, when you have 50/50 winrates in the MU, when you counter an all-in : you feel the protoss is just bad/you're way better cause it's easier to do an all-in than to defend it, and when you lose to it, you feel the same : toss have plenty OP all-in and you have none, so it's imbalanced. So 100% of the time you feel toss is OP/skillless, even if the winrate is 50%.
Zerg also require really heavy mecanisms to get at a good level Master/GM, while Toss requires rather BO/Timing. So when a zerg got beaten by someone who has half his APM in ladder, or see foreigner toss GM with poor mecanism, they feel the race is imba, and anybody can play it and perform with it.
Same to deathball, zerg feel massing colossus/void is really unskill while as a zerg you have to control well a SH/viper/infest/corruptor army you can't control in one group like colo/void, and can get stomp is not well positionned while the army value is the same or higher than toss army.
The mindset of protoss seem a bit different : When they win with an all-in, they feel they have good micro/good mindgame/zerg haven't well fight (and zerg just will think : can't micro my units because FF block me, mindgame=you're just lucky i can't always scoot the tech, you win because of random luck). When toss get perfectly countered they feel like Zerg is op, they win no matter what, mass SH is OP because he slowy take their deathball (And zerg feel : Haha Toss is mad because he can't A clik into win with his deathball with his 80 APM).
So whatever the winrate are, psychologically i think Zerg will always consider protoss as OP/noskill due to the different design of the two race, and the initiative power of the protoss in the MU.
On February 16 2014 19:18 Tyrhanius wrote: I think Zerg hates protoss because protoss have nearly always the initiative in the MU. If Zerg loses to Protoss after an all-in, he will thinks : It's imbalance, if i do as a zerg an all-in vs Protoss he only has to FF the ramp and activate photon overcharge, while me, to defend protoss i have to scout perfectly the all-in which comes to get the perfect army composition, and even with it protoss can win anyways if i don't take the perfect fight, because FF cut my army/my renforcement without i can do anything, and i don't even have the defender avantage cause warpgate.
So even, when you have 50/50 winrates in the MU, when you counter an all-in : you feel the protoss is just bad/you're way better cause it's easier to do an all-in than to defend it, and when you lose to it, you feel the same : toss have plenty OP all-in and you have none, so it's imbalanced. So 100% of the time you feel toss is OP/skillless, even if the winrate is 50%.
Zerg also require really heavy mecanisms to get at a good level Master/GM, while Toss requires rather BO/Timing. So when a zerg got beaten by someone who has half his APM in ladder, or see foreigner toss GM with poor mecanism, they feel the race is imba, and anybody can play it and perform with it.
Same to deathball, zerg feel massing colossus/void is really unskill while as a zerg you have to control well a SH/viper/infest/corruptor army you can't control in one group like colo/void, and can get stomp is not well positionned while the army value is the same or higher than toss army.
The mindset of protoss seem a bit different : When they win with an all-in, they feel they have good micro/good mindgame/zerg haven't well fight (and zerg just will think : can't micro my units because FF block me, mindgame=you're just lucky i can't always scoot the tech, you win because of random luck). When toss get perfectly countered they feel like Zerg is op, they win no matter what, mass SH is OP because he slowy take their deathball (And zerg feel : Haha Toss is mad because he can't A clik into win with his deathball with his 80 APM).
So whatever the winrate are, psychologically i think Zerg will always consider protoss as OP/noskill due to the different design of the two race, and the initiative power of the protoss in the MU.
People always mention APM in relation to how much effort they put in to play a race. But don't macro mechanisms between races count differently towards APM?
Too much whining destroys the entertainment value of watching an event and tuning in to the twitch chat of the stream. I've stopped checking the chat a long time ago because of this issue.
On February 16 2014 19:18 Tyrhanius wrote: I think Zerg hates protoss because protoss have nearly always the initiative in the MU. If Zerg loses to Protoss after an all-in, he will thinks : It's imbalance, if i do as a zerg an all-in vs Protoss he only has to FF the ramp and activate photon overcharge, while me, to defend protoss i have to scout perfectly the all-in which comes to get the perfect army composition, and even with it protoss can win anyways if i don't take the perfect fight, because FF cut my army/my renforcement without i can do anything, and i don't even have the defender avantage cause warpgate.
So even, when you have 50/50 winrates in the MU, when you counter an all-in : you feel the protoss is just bad/you're way better cause it's easier to do an all-in than to defend it, and when you lose to it, you feel the same : toss have plenty OP all-in and you have none, so it's imbalanced. So 100% of the time you feel toss is OP/skillless, even if the winrate is 50%.
Zerg also require really heavy mecanisms to get at a good level Master/GM, while Toss requires rather BO/Timing. So when a zerg got beaten by someone who has half his APM in ladder, or see foreigner toss GM with poor mecanism, they feel the race is imba, and anybody can play it and perform with it.
Same to deathball, zerg feel massing colossus/void is really unskill while as a zerg you have to control well a SH/viper/infest/corruptor army you can't control in one group like colo/void, and can get stomp is not well positionned while the army value is the same or higher than toss army.
The mindset of protoss seem a bit different : When they win with an all-in, they feel they have good micro/good mindgame/zerg haven't well fight (and zerg just will think : can't micro my units because FF block me, mindgame=you're just lucky i can't always scoot the tech, you win because of random luck). When toss get perfectly countered they feel like Zerg is op, they win no matter what, mass SH is OP because he slowy take their deathball (And zerg feel : Haha Toss is mad because he can't A clik into win with his deathball with his 80 APM).
So whatever the winrate are, psychologically i think Zerg will always consider protoss as OP/noskill due to the different design of the two race, and the initiative power of the protoss in the MU.
People always mention APM in relation to how much effort they put in to play a race. But don't macro mechanisms between races count differently towards APM?
Zerg accord a lot of importance of APM because it's a mecanism heavy race ^^. But i haven't said it's an objective marker of skill, of course not. You can spam click and have a lof of APM, while it's useless. Using cam keyboard seem not to increase APM compare to click on the minimap, while it seem a better mecanism tool. Aslo some when you morph 30 larvas will increase APM more than if you warp an army of the same pop, while it makes no difference.
A bad blink map is also a bad reaper map, and with a bad reaper map, eventho the terran might feel less afraid of blink play, he still need to worry bout any other variety of aggressive/greedy play. which he'll less likely be able to scout it.
On February 16 2014 21:12 dohgg wrote: Just wanna bring a strong point up.
A bad blink map is also a bad reaper map, and with a bad reaper map, eventho the terran might feel less afraid of blink play, he still need to worry bout any other variety of aggressive/greedy play. which he'll less likely be able to scout it.
That's not true; people are talking about double cliffs, something a reaper is fine with, but a Stalker all in is not. For example, look at the formation on Yeonsu. A reaper can easilly jump up over there, while Stalkers can't get in on that point (there's infinity other opportunities, but a double cliff forces shift queueing Blink which is very bad).
On February 16 2014 19:18 Tyrhanius wrote: I think Zerg hates protoss because protoss have nearly always the initiative in the MU. If Zerg loses to Protoss after an all-in, he will thinks : It's imbalance, if i do as a zerg an all-in vs Protoss he only has to FF the ramp and activate photon overcharge, while me, to defend protoss i have to scout perfectly the all-in which comes to get the perfect army composition, and even with it protoss can win anyways if i don't take the perfect fight, because FF cut my army/my renforcement without i can do anything, and i don't even have the defender avantage cause warpgate.
So even, when you have 50/50 winrates in the MU, when you counter an all-in : you feel the protoss is just bad/you're way better cause it's easier to do an all-in than to defend it, and when you lose to it, you feel the same : toss have plenty OP all-in and you have none, so it's imbalanced. So 100% of the time you feel toss is OP/skillless, even if the winrate is 50%.
Zerg also require really heavy mecanisms to get at a good level Master/GM, while Toss requires rather BO/Timing. So when a zerg got beaten by someone who has half his APM in ladder, or see foreigner toss GM with poor mecanism, they feel the race is imba, and anybody can play it and perform with it.
Same to deathball, zerg feel massing colossus/void is really unskill while as a zerg you have to control well a SH/viper/infest/corruptor army you can't control in one group like colo/void, and can get stomp is not well positionned while the army value is the same or higher than toss army.
The mindset of protoss seem a bit different : When they win with an all-in, they feel they have good micro/good mindgame/zerg haven't well fight (and zerg just will think : can't micro my units because FF block me, mindgame=you're just lucky i can't always scoot the tech, you win because of random luck). When toss get perfectly countered they feel like Zerg is op, they win no matter what, mass SH is OP because he slowy take their deathball (And zerg feel : Haha Toss is mad because he can't A clik into win with his deathball with his 80 APM).
So whatever the winrate are, psychologically i think Zerg will always consider protoss as OP/noskill due to the different design of the two race, and the initiative power of the protoss in the MU.
I like what you say.
As both Terran and Zerg you ALWAYS play Reactive.
While you are forced to delay the protoss and snipe stuff, force him to be as honest as possible, etcetera, all Protoss does all game every game is do his buildorder, attack when it suits him, and usually, that ends the game.
It's why protoss isn't entertaining to watch and for Z/T it is annoying to play: Excecuting a BO is so much easier than holding it with imperfect information.
PuMa had some of the best late game ghost control as well for a while, also was very strong at tvt at various stages. He fell off because he couldnt keep up, not because 1/1/1 was nerfed. Much like TOP fell off, Zenio and a crapload of other players!
I will not argue with MC because he is not just a pro gamer and makes his living with it so ofc he knows better. In fact he is a real expert and what he says has just more value than anyone else that just is a ladder hero. Even if he is GM. Their opinion has to have zero value in my opinion. So as he explained his point of view I agree with him. BUT:
People will continue to bitch. They bitch harder if they just suck or are not interested in improving at all. Rarely people bitch that just reached their skill cap and understood it. You can take any game and its forum you will see the same patterns of argumentation. Many just misunderstood the freedom of speech. There is no point that says you dont have to think before you start to talk.
Since the game Industry turned around and takes the player by his hand in every step so that improving went obsolete and that people have to spend time in a game to get better and understand it, its kind of natural.
Its like the kid is used to get every day 2 cookies and now it just gets one cookie. Ofc it will get pissed and bitch.
But this has positive sides too. The money I spend on games dropped drastically. For the year 2014 there is just one game I am kind of interested in. But if it requires me to install ubisoft play software I will just ignore the game too.
On February 16 2014 20:24 joopajoo wrote: I like how offended people are and how wrong it is to claim someones good at abusing timings/all ins.
Is it wrong to say that 1-1-1 pretty much made PuMa's entire career?
Was Puma relevant after that? Not really.
Was MC relevant after protoss allins went out of fashion? Yes.
Protoss all-ins went out of fashion? When?
What I meant was when protoss stopped using all-ins for every single game and started doing strong macro builds. During MC's era, pretty much every protoss did allins. The modern form of protoss macro only started really catching up after MC's peak, iirc. Granted it's still dominant in PvT now, but at least PvZ and PvP aren't 4gate fests or forcefield-reliant allins every single game.
I'll agree with the post written on top of me that people will always whine, and leave this thread before I get angry and earn warnings or whatnot. I myself am guilty of whining during the BL-infestor era (though I feel that iteration of fungal growth is far more infuriating than anything else the game can present to me) so now that I've seen what it feels like to have my race being whined at I'll say that I've had enough of balance whining to last a lifetime.
Anyway, the Protoss hate is getting really stupid. It's way way way worse than when people were whining about GOMTvT or Broodlord/Infestor. It's devolved into personal attacks and extreme vitriol that is worse than almost anything seen in SC2 history. It's really disappointing, and I think you might see more prominent players speak up about it.
I also gotta say I'm really tired when even commentators/tournament hosts are getting on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon. It just adds fuel to the fire =/
It's way worse than GOMTvT or Broodlord/Infestor? Nope. It may seem to appear that way cause the mentioned eras are over - but the hate directed at Zerg while Br/Inf was a whole different scale. And GomTvT did earn that name.
The grass is always greener on the other side. Dont be that biased.
On February 16 2014 19:18 Tyrhanius wrote: I think Zerg hates protoss because protoss have nearly always the initiative in the MU. If Zerg loses to Protoss after an all-in, he will thinks : It's imbalance, if i do as a zerg an all-in vs Protoss he only has to FF the ramp and activate photon overcharge, while me, to defend protoss i have to scout perfectly the all-in which comes to get the perfect army composition, and even with it protoss can win anyways if i don't take the perfect fight, because FF cut my army/my renforcement without i can do anything, and i don't even have the defender avantage cause warpgate.
So even, when you have 50/50 winrates in the MU, when you counter an all-in : you feel the protoss is just bad/you're way better cause it's easier to do an all-in than to defend it, and when you lose to it, you feel the same : toss have plenty OP all-in and you have none, so it's imbalanced. So 100% of the time you feel toss is OP/skillless, even if the winrate is 50%.
Zerg also require really heavy mecanisms to get at a good level Master/GM, while Toss requires rather BO/Timing. So when a zerg got beaten by someone who has half his APM in ladder, or see foreigner toss GM with poor mecanism, they feel the race is imba, and anybody can play it and perform with it.
Same to deathball, zerg feel massing colossus/void is really unskill while as a zerg you have to control well a SH/viper/infest/corruptor army you can't control in one group like colo/void, and can get stomp is not well positionned while the army value is the same or higher than toss army.
The mindset of protoss seem a bit different : When they win with an all-in, they feel they have good micro/good mindgame/zerg haven't well fight (and zerg just will think : can't micro my units because FF block me, mindgame=you're just lucky i can't always scoot the tech, you win because of random luck). When toss get perfectly countered they feel like Zerg is op, they win no matter what, mass SH is OP because he slowy take their deathball (And zerg feel : Haha Toss is mad because he can't A clik into win with his deathball with his 80 APM).
So whatever the winrate are, psychologically i think Zerg will always consider protoss as OP/noskill due to the different design of the two race, and the initiative power of the protoss in the MU.
People always mention APM in relation to how much effort they put in to play a race. But don't macro mechanisms between races count differently towards APM?
It definitely accounts for some of it. As a zerg player, I can't say that I completely agree with all of his post, but some of it rings true to me. The match up feels a bit rock paper scissor ish. It can make you very frustrated at times, on both sides.
On February 16 2014 23:51 Nikon wrote: Wasn't MC the dude that complained that Zerg is too strong in the past?
And Zerg wasnt during the BL Infestor era? Correct me if im wrong.
But he is acting so high and mighty about balance whinning. Reading the English translation he makes it sound like he never balance whines because he is a pro gamer.
Think MC nails it really, MAPS are, and generally always have been, the major factor in terms of balance throughout the history of SC2.
Sure, there has been the odd unit imbalance, and will continue to be so from time to time as Blizz change things and new trends/OP builds emerge, but MAPS are the real, main problem. (See post about Daedalus).
Game is not imbalanced or balanced in absolute. It's always in relation to the maps. Unit stats balance can not be separated from the maps. And I think that, in most cases, it's an extremly inelegant game design to fix core balance issues through the reduction of the "possible map" space. If TvP is somehow balanced for T assuming a wide number of map characteristics, otherwise well T just plain die, then it is imbalanced.
Besides, MC arguments are heavily flawed... It's not like HoTS is out since forever, the extension has only been there for a year... and the balance has been changed repeatedly. In other words, it's not surprising that balance issues didn't instantaneously arise after HoTS launch. Not to mention that late WoL TvP was already favoring P slightly.
For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote: You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
It's actually kind of disgusting how poor the SC2 community is now.
It used to be the best community out there, but now it's as worse as anything out there, including LoL, FPS games etc, people are delusional if they still think the SC2 community isn't very cancerous right now.
Pretty much every pro-player has been playing the game for many hours a day for years and years, that's why they are pro players, to diminish their accomplishments based on the race they play is disgusting.
On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote: You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
It's actually kind of disgusting how poor the SC2 community is now.
It used to be the best community out there, but now it's as worse as anything out there, including LoL, FPS games etc, people are delusional if they still think the SC2 community isn't very cancerous right now.
Pretty much every pro-player has been playing the game for many hours a day for years and years, that's why they are pro players, to diminish their accomplishments based on the race they play is disgusting.
For all the shit thats thrown around in the sc2 world, nothing will top the crap that I've seen in moba games. Go to the hon forums if you want a trip down the rabbit hole, where the fucking ceo of the studio is openly racist
You have to remember, too, that when MC was at the top of his game, he was the only Protoss at the top, especially v Zerg. And this was well before BL infestor
On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote: You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
It's actually kind of disgusting how poor the SC2 community is now.
It used to be the best community out there, but now it's as worse as anything out there, including LoL, FPS games etc, people are delusional if they still think the SC2 community isn't very cancerous right now.
Pretty much every pro-player has been playing the game for many hours a day for years and years, that's why they are pro players, to diminish their accomplishments based on the race they play is disgusting.
For all the shit thats thrown around in the sc2 world, nothing will top the crap that I've seen in moba games. Go to the hon forums if you want a trip down the rabbit hole, where the fucking ceo of the studio is openly racist
Exceptions don't disprove the rule, HoN itself isn't even that popular anymore. Point is, the community has gotten trashy and people will have this rose-tinted view that SC community is still what it used to be. It's really not.
Why would Blizzard ever want communicate with this community when it's become so bad?
On February 15 2014 21:52 TheDwf wrote: I'm posting this because I see too many people saying Zerg is imba. ZvP = 50/50. Really 50/50. Don't blame maps or whatever… The worse player loses. Protoss that whine really don't have any shame. ZvT = I'll tell you why ZvT is so imbalanced. In terms of game balance, there's no problem, right? But in ladder maps Zerg is 65/35 vs Terran. It's really depressing for Terran. Why? It's because we have 4 maps where Brood lords are very strong. Daybreak, Akilon Wastes, Entombed Valley, Antiga. After that we have Cloud Kingdom which is one of the most favourable map for Zerg vs Terran. If you look at Whirlwind, it's 50/50. Terran have an ok time on this map. This is not about game balance, the maps for ZvT is just too good for Zerg. Before, Hellions and Ghost Snipes that swayed the game in ZvT both got nerfed. Now games where zergs easily masses up the composition without deterrence is here. I really didn't want to talk about balance whine because I'm a pro player, but People are saying that zerg players don't even try hard and win due to the race As a veteran, I feel bad for players that get all the hate and feel angry about it. Sniper and RorO didn't win GSL after they were fooling around for a week. They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying they were "patch zergs". In my eyes, the two Zergs played well and that's why they went through. As programers they really learnt how to build infests and cast fungals well. Also I see a lot of talk about nerfing Fungal but if we nerf that Zerg gets fucked. DK-nim also knows this and this is why he isn't nerfing it. Infested Terran was a good ability for 25 energy and I'm glad it got nerfed. With no balancing, just a change of maps will bring 50/50 in ZvT. I think it was maps why Zergs won last GSLs. Think about it, last season had the same balancing, but before the map changes was terran really that bad against Zerg?
Haha hilarious! Thank you. I was thinking about this too.
On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote: You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
It's actually kind of disgusting how poor the SC2 community is now.
It used to be the best community out there, but now it's as worse as anything out there, including LoL, FPS games etc, people are delusional if they still think the SC2 community isn't very cancerous right now.
Pretty much every pro-player has been playing the game for many hours a day for years and years, that's why they are pro players, to diminish their accomplishments based on the race they play is disgusting.
The sc2 community is about the same now as back in 2010. The difference here is that you are obviously a Protoss player and are more butthurt in the current situation.
PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
On February 17 2014 04:33 knOxStarcraft wrote: PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
There is nothing wrong w/ deathball strategies per se. It is rather grand seeing two gigantic armies meeting each other and clashes. The problem is that the battles in SC2 are very anticlimactic. There might be short battles there and there but usually they are simply posturing and when the deciding battles happening, you only get to experience the climax for a brief amount of period. It might display who is the better player of the two but for the majority of the audience, they feel that their time is better well spent seeing multiple teamfights that could potentially turns the tides in a MOBA genre games than what SC2 have to deliver.
If Blizzard were to gravitate upon deathball strategies, they better design the game so that the battles can prolong longer than a maximum of 15 seconds. This could either mean that they need to make the map bigger and/or increasing the supply population count. Unfortunately, Blizzard would definitely ignore anything that goes against their current, subpar design philosophy.
The only maps on which PvZ is balanced on are those that are good for SHs. Alterzim for example is broken in favor of toss. Overall P has a slight edge on Z. With PvT it's not only the maps. I find his logic weak. Basically he's saying that on the absolute best maps for terrans it's 50/50, so it's just a problem with the maps. That's BS. It doesn't work like that.
I haven't really noticed Zergs QQing about PvZ being imba (Scarlett is the only one I can think of off the top of my head), and Major said something pretty similar about the blink-loving map pool being the biggest problem. Nothing really surprising in what MC said
On February 17 2014 04:33 knOxStarcraft wrote: PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
There is nothing wrong w/ deathball strategies per se. It is rather grand seeing two gigantic armies meeting each other and clashes. The problem is that the battles in SC2 are very anticlimactic. There might be short battles there and there but usually they are simply posturing and when the deciding battles happening, you only get to experience the climax for a brief amount of period. It might display who is the better player of the two but for the majority of the audience, they feel that their time is better well spent seeing multiple teamfights that could potentially turns the tides in a MOBA genre games than what SC2 have to deliver.
If Blizzard were to gravitate upon deathball strategies, they better design the game so that the battles can prolong longer than a maximum of 15 seconds. This could either mean that they need to make the map bigger and/or increasing the supply population count. Unfortunately, Blizzard would definitely ignore anything that goes against their current, subpar design philosophy.
Deathballs make the game almost feel like a hero based game, where the deathballs are the heroes lol. players macro the whole game just to lose in 5 seconds to a deathball. If that's what you see in your head when you think of an RTS then so be it, but I see a game with battles happening all over the map with many bases being contested.
On February 17 2014 04:33 knOxStarcraft wrote: PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
There is nothing wrong w/ deathball strategies per se. It is rather grand seeing two gigantic armies meeting each other and clashes. The problem is that the battles in SC2 are very anticlimactic. There might be short battles there and there but usually they are simply posturing and when the deciding battles happening, you only get to experience the climax for a brief amount of period. It might display who is the better player of the two but for the majority of the audience, they feel that their time is better well spent seeing multiple teamfights that could potentially turns the tides in a MOBA genre games than what SC2 have to deliver.
If Blizzard were to gravitate upon deathball strategies, they better design the game so that the battles can prolong longer than a maximum of 15 seconds. This could either mean that they need to make the map bigger and/or increasing the supply population count. Unfortunately, Blizzard would definitely ignore anything that goes against their current, subpar design philosophy.
Deathballs make the game almost feel like a hero based game, where the deathballs are the heroes lol. players macro the whole game just to lose in 5 seconds to a deathball. If that's what you see in your head when you think of an RTS then so be it, but I see a game with battles happening all over the map with many bases being contested.
And when I read comments like this, I see a stereotype that stopped being true long ago.
On February 17 2014 04:33 knOxStarcraft wrote: PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
There is nothing wrong w/ deathball strategies per se. It is rather grand seeing two gigantic armies meeting each other and clashes. The problem is that the battles in SC2 are very anticlimactic. There might be short battles there and there but usually they are simply posturing and when the deciding battles happening, you only get to experience the climax for a brief amount of period. It might display who is the better player of the two but for the majority of the audience, they feel that their time is better well spent seeing multiple teamfights that could potentially turns the tides in a MOBA genre games than what SC2 have to deliver.
If Blizzard were to gravitate upon deathball strategies, they better design the game so that the battles can prolong longer than a maximum of 15 seconds. This could either mean that they need to make the map bigger and/or increasing the supply population count. Unfortunately, Blizzard would definitely ignore anything that goes against their current, subpar design philosophy.
Deathballs make the game almost feel like a hero based game, where the deathballs are the heroes lol. players macro the whole game just to lose in 5 seconds to a deathball. If that's what you see in your head when you think of an RTS then so be it, but I see a game with battles happening all over the map with many bases being contested.
We watchin' th esame game?
SC2 has it's flaws, but you are gravely exaggerating.
On February 17 2014 04:33 knOxStarcraft wrote: PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
There is nothing wrong w/ deathball strategies per se. It is rather grand seeing two gigantic armies meeting each other and clashes. The problem is that the battles in SC2 are very anticlimactic. There might be short battles there and there but usually they are simply posturing and when the deciding battles happening, you only get to experience the climax for a brief amount of period. It might display who is the better player of the two but for the majority of the audience, they feel that their time is better well spent seeing multiple teamfights that could potentially turns the tides in a MOBA genre games than what SC2 have to deliver.
If Blizzard were to gravitate upon deathball strategies, they better design the game so that the battles can prolong longer than a maximum of 15 seconds. This could either mean that they need to make the map bigger and/or increasing the supply population count. Unfortunately, Blizzard would definitely ignore anything that goes against their current, subpar design philosophy.
Deathballs make the game almost feel like a hero based game, where the deathballs are the heroes lol. players macro the whole game just to lose in 5 seconds to a deathball. If that's what you see in your head when you think of an RTS then so be it, but I see a game with battles happening all over the map with many bases being contested.
And when I read comments like this, I see a stereotype that stopped being true long ago.
I realize a moba is technically an RTS I'm just saying I don't see it that way, if that;s what you were getting at.
On February 17 2014 04:33 knOxStarcraft wrote: PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
There is nothing wrong w/ deathball strategies per se. It is rather grand seeing two gigantic armies meeting each other and clashes. The problem is that the battles in SC2 are very anticlimactic. There might be short battles there and there but usually they are simply posturing and when the deciding battles happening, you only get to experience the climax for a brief amount of period. It might display who is the better player of the two but for the majority of the audience, they feel that their time is better well spent seeing multiple teamfights that could potentially turns the tides in a MOBA genre games than what SC2 have to deliver.
If Blizzard were to gravitate upon deathball strategies, they better design the game so that the battles can prolong longer than a maximum of 15 seconds. This could either mean that they need to make the map bigger and/or increasing the supply population count. Unfortunately, Blizzard would definitely ignore anything that goes against their current, subpar design philosophy.
Deathballs make the game almost feel like a hero based game, where the deathballs are the heroes lol. players macro the whole game just to lose in 5 seconds to a deathball. If that's what you see in your head when you think of an RTS then so be it, but I see a game with battles happening all over the map with many bases being contested.
We watchin' th esame game?
SC2 has it's flaws, but you are gravely exaggerating.
I'm talking specifically about the deathball flaw, which is a very big one imo. Of course not all games turn out this way, and I still enjoy playing sc2 a lot of the time, I'm just focusing on the flaw that I think brings up the balance whine.
On February 17 2014 04:33 knOxStarcraft wrote: PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
There is nothing wrong w/ deathball strategies per se. It is rather grand seeing two gigantic armies meeting each other and clashes. The problem is that the battles in SC2 are very anticlimactic. There might be short battles there and there but usually they are simply posturing and when the deciding battles happening, you only get to experience the climax for a brief amount of period. It might display who is the better player of the two but for the majority of the audience, they feel that their time is better well spent seeing multiple teamfights that could potentially turns the tides in a MOBA genre games than what SC2 have to deliver.
If Blizzard were to gravitate upon deathball strategies, they better design the game so that the battles can prolong longer than a maximum of 15 seconds. This could either mean that they need to make the map bigger and/or increasing the supply population count. Unfortunately, Blizzard would definitely ignore anything that goes against their current, subpar design philosophy.
Deathballs make the game almost feel like a hero based game, where the deathballs are the heroes lol. players macro the whole game just to lose in 5 seconds to a deathball. If that's what you see in your head when you think of an RTS then so be it, but I see a game with battles happening all over the map with many bases being contested.
And when I read comments like this, I see a stereotype that stopped being true long ago.
People who dont watch SC2 and just use the words "deathball" and "design" a lot, trying to make some point. Its the same old, same old.
On February 17 2014 04:33 knOxStarcraft wrote: PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
There is nothing wrong w/ deathball strategies per se. It is rather grand seeing two gigantic armies meeting each other and clashes. The problem is that the battles in SC2 are very anticlimactic. There might be short battles there and there but usually they are simply posturing and when the deciding battles happening, you only get to experience the climax for a brief amount of period. It might display who is the better player of the two but for the majority of the audience, they feel that their time is better well spent seeing multiple teamfights that could potentially turns the tides in a MOBA genre games than what SC2 have to deliver.
If Blizzard were to gravitate upon deathball strategies, they better design the game so that the battles can prolong longer than a maximum of 15 seconds. This could either mean that they need to make the map bigger and/or increasing the supply population count. Unfortunately, Blizzard would definitely ignore anything that goes against their current, subpar design philosophy.
Deathballs make the game almost feel like a hero based game, where the deathballs are the heroes lol. players macro the whole game just to lose in 5 seconds to a deathball. If that's what you see in your head when you think of an RTS then so be it, but I see a game with battles happening all over the map with many bases being contested.
And when I read comments like this, I see a stereotype that stopped being true long ago.
People who dont watch SC2 and just use the words "deathball" and "design" a lot, trying to make some point. Its the same old, same old.
Actuallly I both play and watch sc2. Brushing off my comments like their meaningless is actually pretty insulting, just like assuming I'm someone who knows nothing about the state of the game is. I'm not sure if you meant it that way, but it sure seems like you did.
On February 17 2014 04:33 knOxStarcraft wrote: PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
There is nothing wrong w/ deathball strategies per se. It is rather grand seeing two gigantic armies meeting each other and clashes. The problem is that the battles in SC2 are very anticlimactic. There might be short battles there and there but usually they are simply posturing and when the deciding battles happening, you only get to experience the climax for a brief amount of period. It might display who is the better player of the two but for the majority of the audience, they feel that their time is better well spent seeing multiple teamfights that could potentially turns the tides in a MOBA genre games than what SC2 have to deliver.
If Blizzard were to gravitate upon deathball strategies, they better design the game so that the battles can prolong longer than a maximum of 15 seconds. This could either mean that they need to make the map bigger and/or increasing the supply population count. Unfortunately, Blizzard would definitely ignore anything that goes against their current, subpar design philosophy.
Deathballs make the game almost feel like a hero based game, where the deathballs are the heroes lol. players macro the whole game just to lose in 5 seconds to a deathball. If that's what you see in your head when you think of an RTS then so be it, but I see a game with battles happening all over the map with many bases being contested.
And when I read comments like this, I see a stereotype that stopped being true long ago.
People who dont watch SC2 and just use the words "deathball" and "design" a lot, trying to make some point. Its the same old, same old.
Actuallly I both play and watch sc2. Brushing off my comments like their meaningless is actually pretty insulting, just like assuming I'm someone who knows nothing about the state of the game is. I'm not sure if you meant it that way, but it sure seems like you did.
I'm sure you will get over it. And most comments on the internet are pretty meaningless. Those about deathballs are no different.
On February 17 2014 04:33 knOxStarcraft wrote: PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
There is nothing wrong w/ deathball strategies per se. It is rather grand seeing two gigantic armies meeting each other and clashes. The problem is that the battles in SC2 are very anticlimactic. There might be short battles there and there but usually they are simply posturing and when the deciding battles happening, you only get to experience the climax for a brief amount of period. It might display who is the better player of the two but for the majority of the audience, they feel that their time is better well spent seeing multiple teamfights that could potentially turns the tides in a MOBA genre games than what SC2 have to deliver.
If Blizzard were to gravitate upon deathball strategies, they better design the game so that the battles can prolong longer than a maximum of 15 seconds. This could either mean that they need to make the map bigger and/or increasing the supply population count. Unfortunately, Blizzard would definitely ignore anything that goes against their current, subpar design philosophy.
Deathballs make the game almost feel like a hero based game, where the deathballs are the heroes lol. players macro the whole game just to lose in 5 seconds to a deathball. If that's what you see in your head when you think of an RTS then so be it, but I see a game with battles happening all over the map with many bases being contested.
And when I read comments like this, I see a stereotype that stopped being true long ago.
People who dont watch SC2 and just use the words "deathball" and "design" a lot, trying to make some point. Its the same old, same old.
K, I play SC2, I've played 6000 matches (evidently), and I use "design" a lot. I rarely use death ball, but I do feel Protoss does have the best "end-game composition" with VR, but that's not even my biggest concern with Protoss design.
My biggest complaint is that there are terribly designed units, like Oracle, Mothership Core, Widowmines, Swarm Hosts, Hellbats, and Zealots. They are the types of units, when you look at how strong they are at something, or how fast, or how tanky, or how abusive they are, you think... "Did some random Gold-league player come up with these?"
Oracles move way too fast (lol Blizzard buffed its speed too) for a flying harass unit which can be obtained quite early. It two-shots workers and can kill 5 marines and get away. The vision spell is fine and I always like things which make player vision higher. Mothership Core is the easiest to obtain flying unit, which can attack from air to ground. It also has two of the least skill-requiring spells ever, Nexus cannon and Time Warp. Both have huge radius, and relatively low energy cost, so that you rarely have to actually think "Should I use X now or wait and use Y later??" The cannon is about the easiest early-game defense spell ever as there is no way anything can kill a Nexus early game now.
I could go on about how all of those other mentioned units are terribly designed, but I don't think it's necessary.
More on-topic and linking what I said... While I agree that maps would help Terran immensely, and Blizzard + tournaments map pool choice is absolute fucking trash, I think that many units should be redone (almost completely?) so that they are a far more "depthy" unit. You can have some pretty good strategy if you give units the potential, but most of the time, SC2 is less of a strategy game and more like a bunch of terrible minigames put together. Due to how Terran must be able to survive so many Protoss build-orders (Oracles, Blink Stalkers, DTs, macro cheese, etc.), they must go a middle-ground build. If a Terran is going a marine and marauder build when there is fast oracles unscouted, then the Terran pretty much loses the game. If the Terran is going pure marine builds, then he will just lose the game if blink stalkers go unscouted. Now, there are things Terran can do about the situation, but Protoss is the one making the calls.
PvT Midgame is okay, though, and I think a lot of good PvT games come from Mid-late game (Look at IEM's Classic vs Polt, a pretty solid series!)
On February 17 2014 04:33 knOxStarcraft wrote: PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
There is nothing wrong w/ deathball strategies per se. It is rather grand seeing two gigantic armies meeting each other and clashes. The problem is that the battles in SC2 are very anticlimactic. There might be short battles there and there but usually they are simply posturing and when the deciding battles happening, you only get to experience the climax for a brief amount of period. It might display who is the better player of the two but for the majority of the audience, they feel that their time is better well spent seeing multiple teamfights that could potentially turns the tides in a MOBA genre games than what SC2 have to deliver.
If Blizzard were to gravitate upon deathball strategies, they better design the game so that the battles can prolong longer than a maximum of 15 seconds. This could either mean that they need to make the map bigger and/or increasing the supply population count. Unfortunately, Blizzard would definitely ignore anything that goes against their current, subpar design philosophy.
Deathballs make the game almost feel like a hero based game, where the deathballs are the heroes lol. players macro the whole game just to lose in 5 seconds to a deathball. If that's what you see in your head when you think of an RTS then so be it, but I see a game with battles happening all over the map with many bases being contested.
And when I read comments like this, I see a stereotype that stopped being true long ago.
People who dont watch SC2 and just use the words "deathball" and "design" a lot, trying to make some point. Its the same old, same old.
Actuallly I both play and watch sc2. Brushing off my comments like their meaningless is actually pretty insulting, just like assuming I'm someone who knows nothing about the state of the game is. I'm not sure if you meant it that way, but it sure seems like you did.
I'm sure you will get over it. And most comments on the internet are pretty meaningless. Those about deathballs are no different.
I fail to see how my comments were meaningless to this topic, but you're free to explain it to me, instead of insulting me like an angry child. I assume you're a protoss player who's frustrated, but it really doesn't give you a free pass to be an asshole.
On February 17 2014 04:33 knOxStarcraft wrote: PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
There is nothing wrong w/ deathball strategies per se. It is rather grand seeing two gigantic armies meeting each other and clashes. The problem is that the battles in SC2 are very anticlimactic. There might be short battles there and there but usually they are simply posturing and when the deciding battles happening, you only get to experience the climax for a brief amount of period. It might display who is the better player of the two but for the majority of the audience, they feel that their time is better well spent seeing multiple teamfights that could potentially turns the tides in a MOBA genre games than what SC2 have to deliver.
If Blizzard were to gravitate upon deathball strategies, they better design the game so that the battles can prolong longer than a maximum of 15 seconds. This could either mean that they need to make the map bigger and/or increasing the supply population count. Unfortunately, Blizzard would definitely ignore anything that goes against their current, subpar design philosophy.
Deathballs make the game almost feel like a hero based game, where the deathballs are the heroes lol. players macro the whole game just to lose in 5 seconds to a deathball. If that's what you see in your head when you think of an RTS then so be it, but I see a game with battles happening all over the map with many bases being contested.
And when I read comments like this, I see a stereotype that stopped being true long ago.
People who dont watch SC2 and just use the words "deathball" and "design" a lot, trying to make some point. Its the same old, same old.
Actuallly I both play and watch sc2. Brushing off my comments like their meaningless is actually pretty insulting, just like assuming I'm someone who knows nothing about the state of the game is. I'm not sure if you meant it that way, but it sure seems like you did.
I'm sure you will get over it. And most comments on the internet are pretty meaningless. Those about deathballs are no different.
I fail to see how my comments were meaningless to this topic, but you're free to explain it to me, instead of insulting me like an angry child. I assume you're a protoss player who's frustrated, but it really doesn't give you a free pass to be an asshole.
Your comment is pointless in my opinion because its just as passive aggressive shot at SC2. You liken it to a "hero game" like league of legends as make it as if that somehow makes it a lesser game with a comment like "if thats what you see in your head when you think of an RTS game" and so on. Its just a trolly comment meant anger people who like the game and say "its like those mobas where you control one unit"
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
I agree that some of the maps drastically favor toss vs terran, but I heavily disagree that nexus cannon shouldn't be nerfed just because of PvP. Honestly, that's bullshit. It's a mechanic that breaks TvP and makes it impossible to punish toss, as MC notes. Has any other race had that excuse? We didn't nerf hellbats because it broke terran mirror. We didn't nerf fungal because it broke ZvZ. Those were nerfed because they hurt other matchups, mirror wasn't even in the conversation.
If the mechanic breaks other matchups, the last thing to consider is how it effects mirror. Mirror is balanced inherently. Deal with it.
On February 17 2014 04:33 knOxStarcraft wrote: PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
There is nothing wrong w/ deathball strategies per se. It is rather grand seeing two gigantic armies meeting each other and clashes. The problem is that the battles in SC2 are very anticlimactic. There might be short battles there and there but usually they are simply posturing and when the deciding battles happening, you only get to experience the climax for a brief amount of period. It might display who is the better player of the two but for the majority of the audience, they feel that their time is better well spent seeing multiple teamfights that could potentially turns the tides in a MOBA genre games than what SC2 have to deliver.
If Blizzard were to gravitate upon deathball strategies, they better design the game so that the battles can prolong longer than a maximum of 15 seconds. This could either mean that they need to make the map bigger and/or increasing the supply population count. Unfortunately, Blizzard would definitely ignore anything that goes against their current, subpar design philosophy.
Deathballs make the game almost feel like a hero based game, where the deathballs are the heroes lol. players macro the whole game just to lose in 5 seconds to a deathball. If that's what you see in your head when you think of an RTS then so be it, but I see a game with battles happening all over the map with many bases being contested.
And when I read comments like this, I see a stereotype that stopped being true long ago.
People who dont watch SC2 and just use the words "deathball" and "design" a lot, trying to make some point. Its the same old, same old.
Actuallly I both play and watch sc2. Brushing off my comments like their meaningless is actually pretty insulting, just like assuming I'm someone who knows nothing about the state of the game is. I'm not sure if you meant it that way, but it sure seems like you did.
I'm sure you will get over it. And most comments on the internet are pretty meaningless. Those about deathballs are no different.
I fail to see how my comments were meaningless to this topic, but you're free to explain it to me, instead of insulting me like an angry child. I assume you're a protoss player who's frustrated, but it really doesn't give you a free pass to be an asshole.
Your comment is pointless in my opinion because its just as passive aggressive shot at SC2. You liken it to a "hero game" like league of legends as make it as if that somehow makes it a lesser game with a comment like "if thats what you see in your head when you think of an RTS game" and so on. Its just a trolly comment meant anger people who like the game and say "its like those mobas where you control one unit"
Ah ok, I can see how it could come off that way. If you read my other comments up there you'd see I was only talking about deathball situations, be it an all in or a 50 min game with deathballs posturing then a fight that lasts 5 seconds ends the game. I like a lot of things about sc2 and actively play it, I was just pointing out that I think the deathball thing is a big issue and I think people are whining about balance because of these situations when it's not really a balance issue at all. I also didn't mean to call mobas bad or a lesser game than sc2, though I do like sc2 far more.
edit: you also make a lot of assumptions and state them as fact, you should probably stop that, or at least say "I assume" or something.
You can't isolate any races units from the maps. They both factor into the strength of any race or style, and will both affect win-rates. Whether (for example) blink is too powerful or whether maps facilitate blink too strongly, or whether medivac boost is too powerful or maps facilitate drop play too strongly, or whatever particular item you'd like to cry balance about, win rates are affected.
With that having been said, balance whining is just out of control. If people spent 1/2 as much energy analyzing strategy as they do attempting to analyse balance and game design, they would probably find some ways to alleviate their difficulties.
On February 17 2014 04:33 knOxStarcraft wrote: PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
There is nothing wrong w/ deathball strategies per se. It is rather grand seeing two gigantic armies meeting each other and clashes. The problem is that the battles in SC2 are very anticlimactic. There might be short battles there and there but usually they are simply posturing and when the deciding battles happening, you only get to experience the climax for a brief amount of period. It might display who is the better player of the two but for the majority of the audience, they feel that their time is better well spent seeing multiple teamfights that could potentially turns the tides in a MOBA genre games than what SC2 have to deliver.
If Blizzard were to gravitate upon deathball strategies, they better design the game so that the battles can prolong longer than a maximum of 15 seconds. This could either mean that they need to make the map bigger and/or increasing the supply population count. Unfortunately, Blizzard would definitely ignore anything that goes against their current, subpar design philosophy.
Deathballs make the game almost feel like a hero based game, where the deathballs are the heroes lol. players macro the whole game just to lose in 5 seconds to a deathball. If that's what you see in your head when you think of an RTS then so be it, but I see a game with battles happening all over the map with many bases being contested.
And when I read comments like this, I see a stereotype that stopped being true long ago.
People who dont watch SC2 and just use the words "deathball" and "design" a lot, trying to make some point. Its the same old, same old.
K, I play SC2, I've played 6000 matches (evidently), and I use "design" a lot. I rarely use death ball, but I do feel Protoss does have the best "end-game composition" with VR, but that's not even my biggest concern with Protoss design.
My biggest complaint is that there are terribly designed units, like Oracle, Mothership Core, Widowmines, Swarm Hosts, Hellbats, and Zealots. They are the types of units, when you look at how strong they are at something, or how fast, or how tanky, or how abusive they are, you think... "Did some random Gold-league player come up with these?"
Oracles move way too fast (lol Blizzard buffed its speed too) for a flying harass unit which can be obtained quite early. It two-shots workers and can kill 5 marines and get away. The vision spell is fine and I always like things which make player vision higher. Mothership Core is the easiest to obtain flying unit, which can attack from air to ground. It also has two of the least skill-requiring spells ever, Nexus cannon and Time Warp. Both have huge radius, and relatively low energy cost, so that you rarely have to actually think "Should I use X now or wait and use Y later??" The cannon is about the easiest early-game defense spell ever as there is no way anything can kill a Nexus early game now.
I could go on about how all of those other mentioned units are terribly designed, but I don't think it's necessary.
More on-topic and linking what I said... While I agree that maps would help Terran immensely, and Blizzard + tournaments map pool choice is absolute fucking trash, I think that many units should be redone (almost completely?) so that they are a far more "depthy" unit. You can have some pretty good strategy if you give units the potential, but most of the time, SC2 is less of a strategy game and more like a bunch of terrible minigames put together. Due to how Terran must be able to survive so many Protoss build-orders (Oracles, Blink Stalkers, DTs, macro cheese, etc.), they must go a middle-ground build. If a Terran is going a marine and marauder build when there is fast oracles unscouted, then the Terran pretty much loses the game. If the Terran is going pure marine builds, then he will just lose the game if blink stalkers go unscouted. Now, there are things Terran can do about the situation, but Protoss is the one making the calls.
PvT Midgame is okay, though, and I think a lot of good PvT games come from Mid-late game (Look at IEM's Classic vs Polt, a pretty solid series!)
You lost me when you said Zealots were badly designed.
On February 17 2014 04:33 knOxStarcraft wrote: PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
There is nothing wrong w/ deathball strategies per se. It is rather grand seeing two gigantic armies meeting each other and clashes. The problem is that the battles in SC2 are very anticlimactic. There might be short battles there and there but usually they are simply posturing and when the deciding battles happening, you only get to experience the climax for a brief amount of period. It might display who is the better player of the two but for the majority of the audience, they feel that their time is better well spent seeing multiple teamfights that could potentially turns the tides in a MOBA genre games than what SC2 have to deliver.
If Blizzard were to gravitate upon deathball strategies, they better design the game so that the battles can prolong longer than a maximum of 15 seconds. This could either mean that they need to make the map bigger and/or increasing the supply population count. Unfortunately, Blizzard would definitely ignore anything that goes against their current, subpar design philosophy.
Deathballs make the game almost feel like a hero based game, where the deathballs are the heroes lol. players macro the whole game just to lose in 5 seconds to a deathball. If that's what you see in your head when you think of an RTS then so be it, but I see a game with battles happening all over the map with many bases being contested.
And when I read comments like this, I see a stereotype that stopped being true long ago.
People who dont watch SC2 and just use the words "deathball" and "design" a lot, trying to make some point. Its the same old, same old.
K, I play SC2, I've played 6000 matches (evidently), and I use "design" a lot. I rarely use death ball, but I do feel Protoss does have the best "end-game composition" with VR, but that's not even my biggest concern with Protoss design.
My biggest complaint is that there are terribly designed units, like Oracle, Mothership Core, Widowmines, Swarm Hosts, Hellbats, and Zealots. They are the types of units, when you look at how strong they are at something, or how fast, or how tanky, or how abusive they are, you think... "Did some random Gold-league player come up with these?"
Oracles move way too fast (lol Blizzard buffed its speed too) for a flying harass unit which can be obtained quite early. It two-shots workers and can kill 5 marines and get away. The vision spell is fine and I always like things which make player vision higher. Mothership Core is the easiest to obtain flying unit, which can attack from air to ground. It also has two of the least skill-requiring spells ever, Nexus cannon and Time Warp. Both have huge radius, and relatively low energy cost, so that you rarely have to actually think "Should I use X now or wait and use Y later??" The cannon is about the easiest early-game defense spell ever as there is no way anything can kill a Nexus early game now.
I could go on about how all of those other mentioned units are terribly designed, but I don't think it's necessary.
More on-topic and linking what I said... While I agree that maps would help Terran immensely, and Blizzard + tournaments map pool choice is absolute fucking trash, I think that many units should be redone (almost completely?) so that they are a far more "depthy" unit. You can have some pretty good strategy if you give units the potential, but most of the time, SC2 is less of a strategy game and more like a bunch of terrible minigames put together. Due to how Terran must be able to survive so many Protoss build-orders (Oracles, Blink Stalkers, DTs, macro cheese, etc.), they must go a middle-ground build. If a Terran is going a marine and marauder build when there is fast oracles unscouted, then the Terran pretty much loses the game. If the Terran is going pure marine builds, then he will just lose the game if blink stalkers go unscouted. Now, there are things Terran can do about the situation, but Protoss is the one making the calls.
PvT Midgame is okay, though, and I think a lot of good PvT games come from Mid-late game (Look at IEM's Classic vs Polt, a pretty solid series!)
You lost me when you said Zealots were badly designed.
You're right, making the race's most common unit have a skill ceiling of zero is fantastic design.
In truth, it wouldn't be that big a deal, if the Immortal, Colossus, DT, Archon, and Void Ray didn't all follow suit. BW had Reavers and dumbcast HTs to make the difference.
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
On February 17 2014 04:33 knOxStarcraft wrote: PvZ = frustrating from both sides because of swarmhost low econ and toss deathball low econ wins. When people get frustrated they balance whine because they're too angry to see that it's happening on both sides.
People get angry when people win when they're down a base and turtle with some stupid deathball. People didn't like BL/infestor, which could win off low economy turtleing. People don't like when toss walks a deathball out of their 2 or 3 base and win against a 4 base player. People don't like when a zerg on 2 base wins with swarm host viper against a 4 base toss. people don't like when terran gets a mech skyterran deathball that nothing can kill.
I see a pattern here, and it has nothing to do with balance; it has everything to do with Blizzard fucking up late game sc2 with deathballs and refusing to fix it.
There is nothing wrong w/ deathball strategies per se. It is rather grand seeing two gigantic armies meeting each other and clashes. The problem is that the battles in SC2 are very anticlimactic. There might be short battles there and there but usually they are simply posturing and when the deciding battles happening, you only get to experience the climax for a brief amount of period. It might display who is the better player of the two but for the majority of the audience, they feel that their time is better well spent seeing multiple teamfights that could potentially turns the tides in a MOBA genre games than what SC2 have to deliver.
If Blizzard were to gravitate upon deathball strategies, they better design the game so that the battles can prolong longer than a maximum of 15 seconds. This could either mean that they need to make the map bigger and/or increasing the supply population count. Unfortunately, Blizzard would definitely ignore anything that goes against their current, subpar design philosophy.
Deathballs make the game almost feel like a hero based game, where the deathballs are the heroes lol. players macro the whole game just to lose in 5 seconds to a deathball. If that's what you see in your head when you think of an RTS then so be it, but I see a game with battles happening all over the map with many bases being contested.
And when I read comments like this, I see a stereotype that stopped being true long ago.
People who dont watch SC2 and just use the words "deathball" and "design" a lot, trying to make some point. Its the same old, same old.
K, I play SC2, I've played 6000 matches (evidently), and I use "design" a lot. I rarely use death ball, but I do feel Protoss does have the best "end-game composition" with VR, but that's not even my biggest concern with Protoss design.
My biggest complaint is that there are terribly designed units, like Oracle, Mothership Core, Widowmines, Swarm Hosts, Hellbats, and Zealots. They are the types of units, when you look at how strong they are at something, or how fast, or how tanky, or how abusive they are, you think... "Did some random Gold-league player come up with these?"
Oracles move way too fast (lol Blizzard buffed its speed too) for a flying harass unit which can be obtained quite early. It two-shots workers and can kill 5 marines and get away. The vision spell is fine and I always like things which make player vision higher. Mothership Core is the easiest to obtain flying unit, which can attack from air to ground. It also has two of the least skill-requiring spells ever, Nexus cannon and Time Warp. Both have huge radius, and relatively low energy cost, so that you rarely have to actually think "Should I use X now or wait and use Y later??" The cannon is about the easiest early-game defense spell ever as there is no way anything can kill a Nexus early game now.
I could go on about how all of those other mentioned units are terribly designed, but I don't think it's necessary.
More on-topic and linking what I said... While I agree that maps would help Terran immensely, and Blizzard + tournaments map pool choice is absolute fucking trash, I think that many units should be redone (almost completely?) so that they are a far more "depthy" unit. You can have some pretty good strategy if you give units the potential, but most of the time, SC2 is less of a strategy game and more like a bunch of terrible minigames put together. Due to how Terran must be able to survive so many Protoss build-orders (Oracles, Blink Stalkers, DTs, macro cheese, etc.), they must go a middle-ground build. If a Terran is going a marine and marauder build when there is fast oracles unscouted, then the Terran pretty much loses the game. If the Terran is going pure marine builds, then he will just lose the game if blink stalkers go unscouted. Now, there are things Terran can do about the situation, but Protoss is the one making the calls.
PvT Midgame is okay, though, and I think a lot of good PvT games come from Mid-late game (Look at IEM's Classic vs Polt, a pretty solid series!)
You lost me when you said Zealots were badly designed.
Charge in its current form is an inherently anti-micro ability. It really should be changed so that a player with good micro has a significantly different engagement via charge than a player who just A-clicks. A way this could be done would be to lower the speed of charge to be about the same as stim, so that it is effective at chasing away bio, but doesn't guarantee hits against a retreating army. It also should be taken off of auto-cast, so that players can make choices about when to activate it.
Other than charge, however, there's really nothing wrong with Zealots, and I don't agree with his assertion that Widow Mines or Hellbats are poorly designed at all. I'd love to see his reasoning for those other ones. Furthermore, I don't think there's anything wrong with the design of the Swarm Host itself, but merely the Enduring Locusts upgrade.
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Genuine question (and perhaps this should be in the general balance discussion except that some people just mentioned oracles on the last page): For the people that feel oracles are too strong, is the speed buff really the biggest problem or is it the sheer amount of damage output that oracles have (particularly versus light but it's very high overall)? I usually see people complain about the speed but is that just because it's the most recent change. People were complaining about them before and didn't like the idea of them getting buffed, so if they were too strong, is it really the speed, do you think?
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
yup the same tourney where the only terran that did decently against toss was polt. the one and only terran outlier that somehow represents the entire terran playerbase.
Why not fix blink stalkers so it doesn't matter what map you play on, it's 50/50? I'd rather have that than have to thumbs down a map because blink stalkers are too good on it. Having to narrow down the map pool is retarded. All maps are meant to be played.
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
"Get your reality cap on" LOL
Let's see, are you referring to when Hero 4-0 ForGG? Or when Jjakji barely makes it through the protoss in his group? Or when Classic smashed HeroMarine? Maybe you mean when Rain 3-1 Jjakji? Or HerO 3-0 Innovation?
Polt is the only one, and he BARELY edged every protoss he played. You, protoss player, need to get your reality cap on. Every protoss, except you apparently, knows the current mappool/balance is not fair and very toss favored.
This "that can be explained by Toss players (every single toss player? LOL) getting better and Terran (every single terran) not adapting. Reminds me so heavily of when zergs claimed brood infestor was fair and terran just wasn't adapting. Now all Zergs act like they always admitted it was imba. Shame. Shame on you
We should count how many tournaments in a row protoss has won then, and how many more in a row they are going to win. Maybe after 20 MC will feel stupid?
Like seriously, in history there has never been many high level protoss having good success. Then hots come,. they buff warp prism/oracle harass... and suddently you have like 20-25 protoss doinginsane good.
On February 17 2014 13:11 Snake.69 wrote: We should count how many tournaments in a row protoss has won then, and how many more in a row they are going to win. Maybe after 20 MC will feel stupid?
Like seriously, in history there has never been many high level protoss having good success. Then hots come,. they buff warp prism/oracle harass... and suddently you have like 20-25 protoss doinginsane good.
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
lol, just like how they let the hellbat meta develop before nerfing it, right?
And yes, maps play a big role. So was the case in the 1-1-1 era, if maps were bigger, 1-1-1 is not nearly as strong. But when 70%+ of the map pool favors blink, then maybe nerfing blink is a easier fix.
As for IEM Cologne Terrans doing fine. It is like saying protoss has been the most OP race throughout WoL and HoTS because MC is the #1 money earner...
MC was winning when his race was statistically the worst in the game. And that was for a long time too. I think he's word carries a lot more weight than terran emotions.
On February 17 2014 13:42 KingAce wrote: MC was winning when his race was statistically the worst in the game. And that was for a long time too. I think he's word carries a lot more weight than terran emotions.
how does that correlate at all? he won when his race sucked, now his opinions matter more?
On February 17 2014 13:42 KingAce wrote: MC was winning when his race was statistically the worst in the game. And that was for a long time too. I think he's word carries a lot more weight than terran emotions.
This makes no sense. MC is admitting there is imbalance, in his word 70-30 on 5 or more maps. Which, btw, is a vast majority of the map pool. Re-read MC's post please. Ty.
Therefore, terran "emotions" or frustrations, are warranted and understandable.
On February 17 2014 13:42 KingAce wrote: MC was winning when his race was statistically the worst in the game. And that was for a long time too. I think he's word carries a lot more weight than terran emotions.
This makes no sense. MC is admitting there is imbalance, in his word 70-30 on 5 or more maps. Which, btw, is a vast majority of the map pool. Re-read MC's post please. Ty.
Therefore, terran "emotions" or frustrations, are warranted and understandable.
People are saying forget all that, he's biased. And I am like this dude has been on top form without excuses. When he's race was struggling, he was still finding ways to win tournaments. I think it's disrespectful to simply dismiss all of that because of emotions.
Personally I know the game is unbalanced. As long as core issues are ignored the game will always have problems. But it feels good to know that terrans are now feeling what we've felt for so long. The burning sensation in your stomach, been there done that.
On February 15 2014 21:52 TheDwf wrote: I'm posting this because I see too many people saying Zerg is imba. ZvP = 50/50. Really 50/50. Don't blame maps or whatever… The worse player loses. Protoss that whine really don't have any shame. ZvT = I'll tell you why ZvT is so imbalanced. In terms of game balance, there's no problem, right? But in ladder maps Zerg is 65/35 vs Terran. It's really depressing for Terran. Why? It's because we have 4 maps where Brood lords are very strong. Daybreak, Akilon Wastes, Entombed Valley, Antiga. After that we have Cloud Kingdom which is one of the most favourable map for Zerg vs Terran. If you look at Whirlwind, it's 50/50. Terran have an ok time on this map. This is not about game balance, the maps for ZvT is just too good for Zerg. Before, Hellions and Ghost Snipes that swayed the game in ZvT both got nerfed. Now games where zergs easily masses up the composition without deterrence is here. I really didn't want to talk about balance whine because I'm a pro player, but People are saying that zerg players don't even try hard and win due to the race As a veteran, I feel bad for players that get all the hate and feel angry about it. Sniper and RorO didn't win GSL after they were fooling around for a week. They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying they were "patch zergs". In my eyes, the two Zergs played well and that's why they went through. As programers they really learnt how to build infests and cast fungals well. Also I see a lot of talk about nerfing Fungal but if we nerf that Zerg gets fucked. DK-nim also knows this and this is why he isn't nerfing it. Infested Terran was a good ability for 25 energy and I'm glad it got nerfed. With no balancing, just a change of maps will bring 50/50 in ZvT. I think it was maps why Zergs won last GSLs. Think about it, last season had the same balancing, but before the map changes was terran really that bad against Zerg?
EDIT: "This" brings me back. There is a strong correlation between earlier "patch zergs" and today's "power of protoss". great post, I just wanted others to see it.
On February 17 2014 13:42 KingAce wrote: MC was winning when his race was statistically the worst in the game. And that was for a long time too. I think he's word carries a lot more weight than terran emotions.
This makes no sense. MC is admitting there is imbalance, in his word 70-30 on 5 or more maps. Which, btw, is a vast majority of the map pool. Re-read MC's post please. Ty.
Therefore, terran "emotions" or frustrations, are warranted and understandable.
Personally I know the game is unbalanced. As long as core issues are ignored the game will always have problems. But it feels good to know that terrans are now feeling what we've felt for so long. The burning sensation in your stomach, been there done that.
Horrible way of looking at the game and extremely bias. Terrible mentality...retribution is horrendous idea when it comes to balancing. Next time another race is imbalanced after this why not everyone just say this: "But it feels good to know that Xrace are now feeling what we've felt for so long. The burning sensation in your stomach, been there done that."
On February 17 2014 13:42 KingAce wrote: MC was winning when his race was statistically the worst in the game. And that was for a long time too. I think he's word carries a lot more weight than terran emotions.
This makes no sense. MC is admitting there is imbalance, in his word 70-30 on 5 or more maps. Which, btw, is a vast majority of the map pool. Re-read MC's post please. Ty.
Therefore, terran "emotions" or frustrations, are warranted and understandable.
Personally I know the game is unbalanced. As long as core issues are ignored the game will always have problems. But it feels good to know that terrans are now feeling what we've felt for so long. The burning sensation in your stomach, been there done that.
Horrible way of looking at the game and extremely bias. Terrible mentality...retribution is horrendous idea when it comes to balancing. Next time another race is imbalanced after this why not everyone just say this: "But it feels good to know that Xrace are now feeling what we've felt for so long. The burning sensation in your stomach, been there done that."
Correct! Protoss players dont deserve their spot in the sun because they are the scum of the earth, and I cant get cheap wins against them anymore. Oh, ooops, I forgot that we are claiming the moral highground when our race is losing out... I mean to say: "retribution is horrendous idea when it comes to balancing". Therefore, protoss should be nerfed hard, in order to restore balance and promote good sportsmanship. wink*
Yeah I agree the game is really racially balanced so much so I find it disgusting, myself. Maybe Blizzard will read that post and introduce new maps already. If they dumped even a few of those maps maybe they'd fix TvP now besides waiting for season 1 to conclude before doing that?
Zest and Trap didn't go to ro16 after they were fooling around for a week.
누구보다 노력 많이했을수도있는데 무슨 종빨이니 어쩌니로 선수는 폄하 안하셨음 좋겠습니다
They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying that it's "the power of protoss".
제가 볼때 오늘 두 토스는 정말 Well play 잘해서 올라간거고 프로게이머로써 빌드 전략 운영 다 잘 배웠습니다
In my eyes, the two Tosses played well and that's why they went through. As progamers they really learnt builds and strategies well.
Yes, stupid Terrans and Zergs, why don't YOU just really learn builds and strategies? Why are you fooling around and being lazy? If you would just work as hard as your fellow Protosses, maybe you could win some tournaments too? Think about it!
EDIT: I guess in the 1-1-1 era of WoL all Protosses were also lazy as fuck and didn't practice PvT...
Zest and Trap didn't go to ro16 after they were fooling around for a week.
누구보다 노력 많이했을수도있는데 무슨 종빨이니 어쩌니로 선수는 폄하 안하셨음 좋겠습니다
They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying that it's "the power of protoss".
제가 볼때 오늘 두 토스는 정말 Well play 잘해서 올라간거고 프로게이머로써 빌드 전략 운영 다 잘 배웠습니다
In my eyes, the two Tosses played well and that's why they went through. As progamers they really learnt builds and strategies well.
Yes, stupid Terrans and Zergs, why don't YOU just really learn builds and strategies? Why are you fooling around and being lazy? If you would just work as hard as your fellow Protosses, maybe you could win some tournaments too? Think about it!
EDIT: I guess in the 1-1-1 era of WoL all Protosses were also lazy as fuck and didn't practice PvT...
Well that's true in a way isn't it? 1-1-1 got fixed once toss learned to deal with it without major nerfs(?) afaik. All it took was an open mind and practice practice practice. That's my recollection of it anyway, might be wrong. Or was there a toss buff that helped significantly? The immo range buff?
Anyway, couldn't really say how right MC is. Toss seems to be doing really well but it's not like I've played any TvP (or any matchup) lately, so I don't know how much it sucks to be a T right now. I understand that frustration needs to be vented.
What really bother me with protoss atm is not their late game vs late game that is obviously very strong and hard to defeat but their recent ability since oracle patch and new map pool to dictate the game from the begining to the end.
When a protoss can safely go for aggression with blink stalker and then have storm ready at the 10 mn mark and defend 12 supply vs 38 like it's super easy, there is an issue imo. The mid game advantage has been completely shut down for terran. Letting protoss to EXPAND + HARASS + HEAVY TECH at the same time feels not right they have to take risk at some point somewhere.
You only see terran take an edge with the game when it's doom drop time it's the only threat terran can apply atm (but it's goddamn efficient don't get me wrong)
What I truly want is that protoss can have hard choice to make at the begining and mid game stage of the game :
You are going for Blink stalkers/DT/proxy oracle ? You better do dmg or you will fall behind. That is the kind of statement that I want to be true again.
Protoss have to take risk again vs terran no matter what is the form it will take, I don't care but balance team have to make something that threathens again protoss.
PO doing + dmg vs shield and nerf the overall dmg could be a good idea to start.
On February 15 2014 23:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: MC = BossToss = LogicToss? I like that. He's definitely making some really good points. Nowadays, any time any Protoss player wins it's "due to Protoss" rather than "due to skill". Sigh.
On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote: You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
Absolutely agree.
I personally also hate it when the race is overpowered and suddenly everyone playing that race is simply an evil asshole who wants easy wins and is bad at playing video games. Look at shit posts like this:
On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote: You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
Oh woe is me, the Protoss. What a loss it is I feel, When I think DK will steal - My wins earned like a boss.
Note: Protoss players in TL, get over yourself. You are not MC, balance at your level isn't what most reasonable people are complaining about. You want to act like all balance criticism is an attack because of a few assholes? Well, aren't you so wonderful...
I despise such attitude the most : "I'm playing the underpowered race, therefore I have the right to act all high and mighty since I'm clearly more skilful than thou." Protoss players don't get to respond, or they're called out even more for daring to speak up in a climate where the race is strong. You can say that you are doing "balance criticism", but really, when it frequently contains words and phrases that continually antagonize the players and even degrade the pro players, what the fuck are you trying to get at? This is an internet forum, and you expect the people to sit back and just take the attacks and agree to all the "easy race" calls. Sure.
I think MC is right about the maps being the problem, and I've thought so for quite a while. I've also always agreed with MsC providing far too much a safety net to protoss, and MsC is indeed the ultimate bandaid. It even looks like a bandaid. However, balance problems are NOT a reason to antagonize 1/3 of an internet forum.
actually, 'you' cried more about the 1-1-1. which was arguably more map dependent than the subject(s) of tvp balance whine these days. terran players didn't get to respond, or they were called out even more for daring to speak up in a climate where the race is strong. Balance problems are NOT a reason to antagonize 1/3 of an internet forum
the fact that the protoss legion of TL jumps so hard and so defensively onto threads like this reflects more on their own opinion than the invalidity of counter-arguments. 'you' wont let it even be a discussion. all 'you' do is shut down the arguments of the vocal minority and not the actual tvp balance concerns carefully thought out by great terran players on the board (thedwf comes to mind)
mc has done interviews like this before and been 100% self-serving. nothing different here. blaming the maps sounds like a good way of tackling the 'real problem' but its not the entire problem.
On February 17 2014 18:39 WifWaf wrote: Reducing cliff area also reduces Terran's ability to scout early game.
Yep I agree, the first step to balance map out is to totally get rid of the high cliff. This kind of map object is super good for blink but bad for reapers. More void near main base but no high cliff and more low cliff.
This is why I think for example heavy rain is much more viable kind of maps that deadalus. In deadalus the scouting is nearly impossible. In heavy rain you can scout everything with good micro.
About PvZ, in my opinion it is true that it is statistically balanced right now, but only because SwarmHost (boring) play is very strong, it is like the balance of ZvP in WoL where the imbalanced of Infestor/BL was counter by the imbalanced of the immo/sentry all in.
On February 17 2014 22:59 Loccstana wrote: how come we never see Protoss spliting their units to avoid emps? Maybe we should add a stun duration to emp so Protoss will.
they don't need to
Just like Protoss didn't really put Templars in WP to storm armies regularly, yet until the ghost patch, we've been seeing it more and more
On February 17 2014 22:59 Loccstana wrote: how come we never see Protoss spliting their units to avoid emps? Maybe we should add a stun duration to emp so Protoss will.
Never? Hero was doing it constantly against Polt, and some players like Dear just do it all the time as a rule.
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
I agree with MC that there needs to be a stronger emphasis at looking at map balance rather than racial balance when it comes to looking to equalize the game.
I agree with MC with the idea that balance whining never won anyone a game or event. It's good to point out areas of the game that may be imbalanced, but dwelling on it only hurts the game and your own play. It's like Jeadong said, the thoughts of imbalance will do more damage to your play than the imbalance itself. Hopefully the new patches will give Terran the tools to get back on equal footing wih Protoss.
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
You remind me of the clowns who when Terran was dominating sc2 would point to Fruitdealer and Nestea as sole proof of why there was no balance issues (in their own delusional or clueless minds) . Some players can play out of their skin and overcome imbalance or maybe some players find some way to exploit the current meta for a tournie or two, this does not mean all is fine if the person evaluating is not biased or clueless.
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
Quick fact checks, Heromarine was only 0-2 vs Protoss (other 0-2 was vs Innovation), if you discount foreigners you also have to discount MaNa's 0-2 loss vs Polt, also a 8.5% difference is pretty significant (Terran wins 41.5% of the time vs Protoss wins 58.5% of the time- almost a 2:3 ratio).
And you're right, IEM was one of the more balanced win rates in terms of TvP atm and made for some awesome games. If this tournament happened alone I dont think most people would be complaining about TvP being imba. The problem is that we've had this
On February 15 2014 23:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: MC = BossToss = LogicToss? I like that. He's definitely making some really good points. Nowadays, any time any Protoss player wins it's "due to Protoss" rather than "due to skill". Sigh.
On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote: You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
Absolutely agree.
I personally also hate it when the race is overpowered and suddenly everyone playing that race is simply an evil asshole who wants easy wins and is bad at playing video games. Look at shit posts like this:
On February 15 2014 23:42 plogamer wrote:
On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote: You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
Oh woe is me, the Protoss. What a loss it is I feel, When I think DK will steal - My wins earned like a boss.
Note: Protoss players in TL, get over yourself. You are not MC, balance at your level isn't what most reasonable people are complaining about. You want to act like all balance criticism is an attack because of a few assholes? Well, aren't you so wonderful...
I despise such attitude the most : "I'm playing the underpowered race, therefore I have the right to act all high and mighty since I'm clearly more skilful than thou." Protoss players don't get to respond, or they're called out even more for daring to speak up in a climate where the race is strong. You can say that you are doing "balance criticism", but really, when it frequently contains words and phrases that continually antagonize the players and even degrade the pro players, what the fuck are you trying to get at? This is an internet forum, and you expect the people to sit back and just take the attacks and agree to all the "easy race" calls. Sure.
I think MC is right about the maps being the problem, and I've thought so for quite a while. I've also always agreed with MsC providing far too much a safety net to protoss, and MsC is indeed the ultimate bandaid. It even looks like a bandaid. However, balance problems are NOT a reason to antagonize 1/3 of an internet forum.
actually, 'you' cried more about the 1-1-1. which was arguably more map dependent than the subject(s) of tvp balance whine these days. terran players didn't get to respond, or they were called out even more for daring to speak up in a climate where the race is strong. Balance problems are NOT a reason to antagonize 1/3 of an internet forum
the fact that the protoss legion of TL jumps so hard and so defensively onto threads like this reflects more on their own opinion than the invalidity of counter-arguments. 'you' wont let it even be a discussion. all 'you' do is shut down the arguments of the vocal minority and not the actual tvp balance concerns carefully thought out by great terran players on the board (thedwf comes to mind)
mc has done interviews like this before and been 100% self-serving. nothing different here. blaming the maps sounds like a good way of tackling the 'real problem' but its not the entire problem.
Well that's because most of us agree with him. Duh. This line of argumentation seems to imply that because there are problems in TvP balance, whine is justified. TL didn't choose to ban balance whine because the whiners are wrong, but because they are improductive and help create an atmosphere of opposition that is completely unhelpful.
In short, you should be the ones distanciating from the whine; we shouldn't be the ones accepting it as part of a bigger picture.
As much as I like and respect the Bosstoss I find his statement about the problem being map imbalance as opposed to the race imbalance to be a mute point. This is primarily because this is the map pool that we have and the map pool that the tournaments use and the map pool that players practice/ ladder on. So even if the races are balanced; (which I am leaning to they are not.) the field that they play on is not. And although balancing the game around poor map design isn't ideal it is the reality of the situation. It takes longer to design "Balanced" maps it seems then it takes to roll out a balance patch. The problem is balancing a race in a way that doesn't completely kneecap it against the other 3rd race.
I'm not a programmer but I have to wonder how hard would it be to have specific scripting in tournaments for the two races that are being played against each other? Ie. Ghosts EMP has a larger radius when playing against protoss but a smaller one against Zerg. If it were possible to run scripting for the races being played opposed to one another you could balance the two races being played without having any effect on the other. However I am probably thinking of something that is entirely to complex to code into the game.
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
You remind me of the clowns who when Terran was dominating sc2 would point to Fruitdealer and Nestea as sole proof of why there was no balance issues (in their own delusional or clueless minds) . Some players can play out of their skin and overcome imbalance or maybe some players find some way to exploit the current meta for a tournie or two, this does not mean all is fine if the person evaluating is not biased or clueless.
Shows how clueless you are as I wouldnt say that all, it is obvious terran was OP for so long.
You can disagree with MC, I do not.
When did MC cry balance when Toss was struggling to get well-placed let alone win a tournament ? He didnt. So to call him biased shows you dont know what you are talking about. How many other 'popular' pros balance whine, lots. That is why I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks, he has come from a place from winning top tier tournaments when his race was considered the weakest.
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
Quick fact checks, Heromarine was only 0-2 vs Protoss (other 0-2 was vs Innovation), if you discount foreigners you also have to discount MaNa's 0-2 loss vs Polt, also a 8.5% difference is pretty significant (Terran wins 41.5% of the time vs Protoss wins 58.5% of the time- almost a 2:3 ratio).
And you're right, IEM was one of the more balanced win rates in terms of TvP atm and made for some awesome games. If this tournament happened alone I dont think most people would be complaining about TvP being imba. The problem is that we've had this
Preceding it. It's not a one time thing, it's a trend.
Im not sure about your PvT numbers so I checked them myself. PvT was 48 games played, 27 Toss won and 21 won by Terran making Toss win rate 56.25% and Terran 43.75%. Closer than what you calculated. Please correct me if Im wrong.
You quoted an extra 3 tournaments, all within last couple months. Terran was dominating tournaments for alot longer than a couple months and changes eventually came. It is too early to say anything right now, time is needed for the meta to develop, IEM Cologne is a perfect example of this.
On February 17 2014 22:59 Loccstana wrote: how come we never see Protoss spliting their units to avoid emps? Maybe we should add a stun duration to emp so Protoss will.
Never? Hero was doing it constantly against Polt, and some players like Dear just do it all the time as a rule.
You must mean templars. Cause i never saw a protoss splitting all of his fucking units just because he is shit scared against emp's.
It's not storm you know that blows up every single unit you have.
What MC says is true but I think that making maps so that they don't favor protoss would be way too limiting on the map makers because of the stuff like force fields, blink etc. The end result would be most maps looking pretty much the same, for example as Frost, which is probably one of the most balanced maps for all 3 races.
There's also been an off-season in terms of tournaments, which means the meta game will evolve more slowly. Nearly all maps are good Blink maps in this seasons map pool, but tbh that single Mothership Core vision nerf will do so much on it's own. Harder to scout, might force earlier scouting tech/sentry, ramps are harder to Blink up on. Harder to see Bunkers, units standing ready, get vision of a ramp Sentry can forcefield. Will sometimes make you lose your Core out on the map and Immortal allins relying on Sentries will make flanks more difficult to see. It will make allins/pressure more risky and possibly create one more reason to upgrade it to a Mothership xD
I think Blink might be a minor problem in the matchup but honestly it's more about nexus cannon and how its nearly impossible to punish toss from not only taking 2- 3 bases but also freely teching to their godlike unit compositions.
I don't think anyone has mentioned Blizzard's stance in the issue which is laughable: They want terran to explore Mech.. as if they haven't....
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
You remind me of the clowns who when Terran was dominating sc2 would point to Fruitdealer and Nestea as sole proof of why there was no balance issues (in their own delusional or clueless minds) . Some players can play out of their skin and overcome imbalance or maybe some players find some way to exploit the current meta for a tournie or two, this does not mean all is fine if the person evaluating is not biased or clueless.
Shows how clueless you are as I wouldnt say that all, it is obvious terran was OP for so long.
You can disagree with MC, I do not.
When did MC cry balance when Toss was struggling to get well-placed let alone win a tournament ? He didnt. So to call him biased shows you dont know what you are talking about. How many other 'popular' pros balance whine, lots. That is why I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks, he has come from a place from winning top tier tournaments when his race was considered the weakest.
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
Quick fact checks, Heromarine was only 0-2 vs Protoss (other 0-2 was vs Innovation), if you discount foreigners you also have to discount MaNa's 0-2 loss vs Polt, also a 8.5% difference is pretty significant (Terran wins 41.5% of the time vs Protoss wins 58.5% of the time- almost a 2:3 ratio).
And you're right, IEM was one of the more balanced win rates in terms of TvP atm and made for some awesome games. If this tournament happened alone I dont think most people would be complaining about TvP being imba. The problem is that we've had this
Preceding it. It's not a one time thing, it's a trend.
Im not sure about your PvT numbers so I checked them myself. PvT was 48 games played, 27 Toss won and 21 won by Terran making Toss win rate 56.25% and Terran 43.75%. Closer than what you calculated. Please correct me if Im wrong.
You quoted an extra 3 tournaments, all within last couple months. Terran was dominating tournaments for alot longer than a couple months and changes eventually came. It is too early to say anything right now, time is needed for the meta to develop, IEM Cologne is a perfect example of this.
Taking all TvPs from ASUS, IEM Cologne & Sao Paulo and Code A we're looking at a total of 109 games. Protoss won 63 of those which is equivalent to a 57,8% win ratio. Close to what you said. Contrary to what you claim this is quite a significant number.
However, looking at only the win percentages doesn't tell the whole story. I do not have the data to support it but based on what i've seen in recent TvP meta probably around 1/3 or more of those games where protoss came out victorious it was through some sort of 'cheese'. By this i mean some sort of proxy or unscouted tech resulting in an easy win for the protoss. Terran on the other hand has no corresponding strategies to those of protoss and in turn will pull no easy such as an oracle rolling in completely wrecking a mineral line in seconds. I'm sure you know what i'm talking about.
You can give the game all the time in world, this will not change. It will remain unfair almost by definition til the end of days. Yet you propose we wait it out despite the negative impact it has on the game. You also mention how terran was dominating for a much longer time which implies you have some sort of grudge originating from imbalances years ago in WoL. Not sure how this is going to serve you point either as it's pretty much established that Terran with fast bunkers, fast reapers etc was in fact imbalanced and it was a good thing action was taken.
Your obvious bias towards MC and disregard for what other progamers has to say also does not add to your credibility and you'll find it hard to convince anyone of what skewed. You said, and i quote "I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks". You come across as a true fanboy.
Sorry to tell you though MC does have an interest in keeping the current state of the game as it is. Not implying that hes acting on it but it's not completely outside of the realm of possibilities to suggest that he is.
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
You remind me of the clowns who when Terran was dominating sc2 would point to Fruitdealer and Nestea as sole proof of why there was no balance issues (in their own delusional or clueless minds) . Some players can play out of their skin and overcome imbalance or maybe some players find some way to exploit the current meta for a tournie or two, this does not mean all is fine if the person evaluating is not biased or clueless.
Shows how clueless you are as I wouldnt say that all, it is obvious terran was OP for so long.
You can disagree with MC, I do not.
When did MC cry balance when Toss was struggling to get well-placed let alone win a tournament ? He didnt. So to call him biased shows you dont know what you are talking about. How many other 'popular' pros balance whine, lots. That is why I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks, he has come from a place from winning top tier tournaments when his race was considered the weakest.
On February 18 2014 01:52 Pursuit_ wrote:
On February 18 2014 00:34 Parcelleus wrote:
On February 17 2014 23:17 Frex wrote:
On February 17 2014 08:45 Parcelleus wrote:
On February 17 2014 08:31 Xiphos wrote:
On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote:
On February 17 2014 02:06 Xiphos wrote:
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
Quick fact checks, Heromarine was only 0-2 vs Protoss (other 0-2 was vs Innovation), if you discount foreigners you also have to discount MaNa's 0-2 loss vs Polt, also a 8.5% difference is pretty significant (Terran wins 41.5% of the time vs Protoss wins 58.5% of the time- almost a 2:3 ratio).
And you're right, IEM was one of the more balanced win rates in terms of TvP atm and made for some awesome games. If this tournament happened alone I dont think most people would be complaining about TvP being imba. The problem is that we've had this
Preceding it. It's not a one time thing, it's a trend.
Im not sure about your PvT numbers so I checked them myself. PvT was 48 games played, 27 Toss won and 21 won by Terran making Toss win rate 56.25% and Terran 43.75%. Closer than what you calculated. Please correct me if Im wrong.
You quoted an extra 3 tournaments, all within last couple months. Terran was dominating tournaments for alot longer than a couple months and changes eventually came. It is too early to say anything right now, time is needed for the meta to develop, IEM Cologne is a perfect example of this.
Taking all TvPs from ASUS, IEM Cologne & Sao Paulo and Code A we're looking at a total of 109 games. Protoss won 63 of those which is equivalent to a 57,8% win ratio. Close to what you said. Contrary to what you claim this is quite a significant number.
However, looking at only the win percentages doesn't tell the whole story. I do not have the data to support it but based on what i've seen in recent TvP meta probably around 1/3 or more of those games where protoss came out victorious it was through some sort of 'cheese'. By this i mean some sort of proxy or unscouted tech resulting in an easy win for the protoss. Terran on the other hand has no corresponding strategies to those of protoss and in turn will pull no easy such as an oracle rolling in completely wrecking a mineral line in seconds. I'm sure you know what i'm talking about.
You can give the game all the time in world, this will not change. It will remain unfair almost by definition til the end of days. Yet you propose we wait it out despite the negative impact it has on the game. You also mention how terran was dominating for a much longer time which implies you have some sort of grudge originating from imbalances years ago in WoL. Not sure how this is going to serve you point either as it's pretty much established that Terran with fast bunkers, fast reapers etc was in fact imbalanced and it was a good thing action was taken.
Your obvious bias towards MC and disregard for what other progamers has to say also does not add to your credibility and you'll find it hard to convince anyone of what skewed. You said, and i quote "I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks". You come across as a true fanboy.
Sorry to tell you though MC does have an interest in keeping the current state of the game as it is. Not implying that hes acting on it but it's not completely outside of the realm of possibilities to suggest that he is.
Did you even read MC's post? He clearly admits that there is imbalance, but that it's due to the maps. Obviously, he has a personal interest in Toss being a strong race since it helps his income and success as a progamer, but I fail to see how he's acting on that interest when he straight up says that there is indeed an imbalance, and puts forth a suggestion to correct that imbalance (changing the map pool). In doing so, he is suggesting a change that makes Toss weaker. So, you tell me how it's within the realm of possibility that he's somehow acting in self-interest when he's fully admitted that there's an imbalance present and has suggested steps to fix said imbalance (not to mention, he also thinks the time warp energy nerf is good).
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
You remind me of the clowns who when Terran was dominating sc2 would point to Fruitdealer and Nestea as sole proof of why there was no balance issues (in their own delusional or clueless minds) . Some players can play out of their skin and overcome imbalance or maybe some players find some way to exploit the current meta for a tournie or two, this does not mean all is fine if the person evaluating is not biased or clueless.
Shows how clueless you are as I wouldnt say that all, it is obvious terran was OP for so long.
You can disagree with MC, I do not.
When did MC cry balance when Toss was struggling to get well-placed let alone win a tournament ? He didnt. So to call him biased shows you dont know what you are talking about. How many other 'popular' pros balance whine, lots. That is why I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks, he has come from a place from winning top tier tournaments when his race was considered the weakest.
On February 18 2014 01:52 Pursuit_ wrote:
On February 18 2014 00:34 Parcelleus wrote:
On February 17 2014 23:17 Frex wrote:
On February 17 2014 08:45 Parcelleus wrote:
On February 17 2014 08:31 Xiphos wrote:
On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote:
On February 17 2014 02:06 Xiphos wrote: [quote]
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
Quick fact checks, Heromarine was only 0-2 vs Protoss (other 0-2 was vs Innovation), if you discount foreigners you also have to discount MaNa's 0-2 loss vs Polt, also a 8.5% difference is pretty significant (Terran wins 41.5% of the time vs Protoss wins 58.5% of the time- almost a 2:3 ratio).
And you're right, IEM was one of the more balanced win rates in terms of TvP atm and made for some awesome games. If this tournament happened alone I dont think most people would be complaining about TvP being imba. The problem is that we've had this
Preceding it. It's not a one time thing, it's a trend.
Im not sure about your PvT numbers so I checked them myself. PvT was 48 games played, 27 Toss won and 21 won by Terran making Toss win rate 56.25% and Terran 43.75%. Closer than what you calculated. Please correct me if Im wrong.
You quoted an extra 3 tournaments, all within last couple months. Terran was dominating tournaments for alot longer than a couple months and changes eventually came. It is too early to say anything right now, time is needed for the meta to develop, IEM Cologne is a perfect example of this.
Taking all TvPs from ASUS, IEM Cologne & Sao Paulo and Code A we're looking at a total of 109 games. Protoss won 63 of those which is equivalent to a 57,8% win ratio. Close to what you said. Contrary to what you claim this is quite a significant number.
However, looking at only the win percentages doesn't tell the whole story. I do not have the data to support it but based on what i've seen in recent TvP meta probably around 1/3 or more of those games where protoss came out victorious it was through some sort of 'cheese'. By this i mean some sort of proxy or unscouted tech resulting in an easy win for the protoss. Terran on the other hand has no corresponding strategies to those of protoss and in turn will pull no easy such as an oracle rolling in completely wrecking a mineral line in seconds. I'm sure you know what i'm talking about.
You can give the game all the time in world, this will not change. It will remain unfair almost by definition til the end of days. Yet you propose we wait it out despite the negative impact it has on the game. You also mention how terran was dominating for a much longer time which implies you have some sort of grudge originating from imbalances years ago in WoL. Not sure how this is going to serve you point either as it's pretty much established that Terran with fast bunkers, fast reapers etc was in fact imbalanced and it was a good thing action was taken.
Your obvious bias towards MC and disregard for what other progamers has to say also does not add to your credibility and you'll find it hard to convince anyone of what skewed. You said, and i quote "I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks". You come across as a true fanboy.
Sorry to tell you though MC does have an interest in keeping the current state of the game as it is. Not implying that hes acting on it but it's not completely outside of the realm of possibilities to suggest that he is.
Did you even read MC's post? He clearly admits that there is imbalance, but that it's due to the maps. Obviously, he has a personal interest in Toss being a strong race since it helps his income and success as a progamer, but I fail to see how he's acting on that interest when he straight up says that there is indeed an imbalance, and puts forth a suggestion to correct that imbalance (changing the map pool). In doing so, he is suggesting a change that makes Toss weaker. So, you tell me how it's within the realm of possibility that he's somehow acting in self-interest when he's fully admitted that there's an imbalance present and has suggested steps to fix said imbalance (not to mention, he also thinks the time warp energy nerf is good).
Or maybe he's suggesting fixes that actually won't fix the imbalance and trying to delay an inevitable nerf for as long as he can.
On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote: [quote]
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
You remind me of the clowns who when Terran was dominating sc2 would point to Fruitdealer and Nestea as sole proof of why there was no balance issues (in their own delusional or clueless minds) . Some players can play out of their skin and overcome imbalance or maybe some players find some way to exploit the current meta for a tournie or two, this does not mean all is fine if the person evaluating is not biased or clueless.
Shows how clueless you are as I wouldnt say that all, it is obvious terran was OP for so long.
You can disagree with MC, I do not.
When did MC cry balance when Toss was struggling to get well-placed let alone win a tournament ? He didnt. So to call him biased shows you dont know what you are talking about. How many other 'popular' pros balance whine, lots. That is why I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks, he has come from a place from winning top tier tournaments when his race was considered the weakest.
On February 18 2014 01:52 Pursuit_ wrote:
On February 18 2014 00:34 Parcelleus wrote:
On February 17 2014 23:17 Frex wrote:
On February 17 2014 08:45 Parcelleus wrote:
On February 17 2014 08:31 Xiphos wrote:
On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote: [quote]
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
Quick fact checks, Heromarine was only 0-2 vs Protoss (other 0-2 was vs Innovation), if you discount foreigners you also have to discount MaNa's 0-2 loss vs Polt, also a 8.5% difference is pretty significant (Terran wins 41.5% of the time vs Protoss wins 58.5% of the time- almost a 2:3 ratio).
And you're right, IEM was one of the more balanced win rates in terms of TvP atm and made for some awesome games. If this tournament happened alone I dont think most people would be complaining about TvP being imba. The problem is that we've had this
Preceding it. It's not a one time thing, it's a trend.
Im not sure about your PvT numbers so I checked them myself. PvT was 48 games played, 27 Toss won and 21 won by Terran making Toss win rate 56.25% and Terran 43.75%. Closer than what you calculated. Please correct me if Im wrong.
You quoted an extra 3 tournaments, all within last couple months. Terran was dominating tournaments for alot longer than a couple months and changes eventually came. It is too early to say anything right now, time is needed for the meta to develop, IEM Cologne is a perfect example of this.
Taking all TvPs from ASUS, IEM Cologne & Sao Paulo and Code A we're looking at a total of 109 games. Protoss won 63 of those which is equivalent to a 57,8% win ratio. Close to what you said. Contrary to what you claim this is quite a significant number.
However, looking at only the win percentages doesn't tell the whole story. I do not have the data to support it but based on what i've seen in recent TvP meta probably around 1/3 or more of those games where protoss came out victorious it was through some sort of 'cheese'. By this i mean some sort of proxy or unscouted tech resulting in an easy win for the protoss. Terran on the other hand has no corresponding strategies to those of protoss and in turn will pull no easy such as an oracle rolling in completely wrecking a mineral line in seconds. I'm sure you know what i'm talking about.
You can give the game all the time in world, this will not change. It will remain unfair almost by definition til the end of days. Yet you propose we wait it out despite the negative impact it has on the game. You also mention how terran was dominating for a much longer time which implies you have some sort of grudge originating from imbalances years ago in WoL. Not sure how this is going to serve you point either as it's pretty much established that Terran with fast bunkers, fast reapers etc was in fact imbalanced and it was a good thing action was taken.
Your obvious bias towards MC and disregard for what other progamers has to say also does not add to your credibility and you'll find it hard to convince anyone of what skewed. You said, and i quote "I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks". You come across as a true fanboy.
Sorry to tell you though MC does have an interest in keeping the current state of the game as it is. Not implying that hes acting on it but it's not completely outside of the realm of possibilities to suggest that he is.
Did you even read MC's post? He clearly admits that there is imbalance, but that it's due to the maps. Obviously, he has a personal interest in Toss being a strong race since it helps his income and success as a progamer, but I fail to see how he's acting on that interest when he straight up says that there is indeed an imbalance, and puts forth a suggestion to correct that imbalance (changing the map pool). In doing so, he is suggesting a change that makes Toss weaker. So, you tell me how it's within the realm of possibility that he's somehow acting in self-interest when he's fully admitted that there's an imbalance present and has suggested steps to fix said imbalance (not to mention, he also thinks the time warp energy nerf is good).
Or maybe he's suggesting fixes that actually won't fix the imbalance and trying to delay an inevitable nerf for as long as he can.
Possible, but if that's the case I guarantee you that people will remember this post of his and that his credibility will be shot. Doesn't really make sense to me that he'd risk his credibility just to delay a nerf that's going to come anyway, especially since
a. He's aware of the concept of his wins being diminished by the current imbalance and clearly isn't pleased by that
b. He's already rolling in cash and has a bunch of tournament wins under his belt
And again, he's also expressed approval at the time warp nerf. Unless you think that him doing that was just a calculated move to seem impartial, but at that point you're just making big, unprovable assumptions about everything he says, and it's clear that we have lots of inflamed emotions in this thread that would make people more susceptible to making unfair assumptions.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
You remind me of the clowns who when Terran was dominating sc2 would point to Fruitdealer and Nestea as sole proof of why there was no balance issues (in their own delusional or clueless minds) . Some players can play out of their skin and overcome imbalance or maybe some players find some way to exploit the current meta for a tournie or two, this does not mean all is fine if the person evaluating is not biased or clueless.
Shows how clueless you are as I wouldnt say that all, it is obvious terran was OP for so long.
You can disagree with MC, I do not.
When did MC cry balance when Toss was struggling to get well-placed let alone win a tournament ? He didnt. So to call him biased shows you dont know what you are talking about. How many other 'popular' pros balance whine, lots. That is why I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks, he has come from a place from winning top tier tournaments when his race was considered the weakest.
On February 18 2014 01:52 Pursuit_ wrote:
On February 18 2014 00:34 Parcelleus wrote:
On February 17 2014 23:17 Frex wrote:
On February 17 2014 08:45 Parcelleus wrote:
On February 17 2014 08:31 Xiphos wrote:
On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote:
On February 17 2014 02:06 Xiphos wrote: [quote]
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
Quick fact checks, Heromarine was only 0-2 vs Protoss (other 0-2 was vs Innovation), if you discount foreigners you also have to discount MaNa's 0-2 loss vs Polt, also a 8.5% difference is pretty significant (Terran wins 41.5% of the time vs Protoss wins 58.5% of the time- almost a 2:3 ratio).
And you're right, IEM was one of the more balanced win rates in terms of TvP atm and made for some awesome games. If this tournament happened alone I dont think most people would be complaining about TvP being imba. The problem is that we've had this
Preceding it. It's not a one time thing, it's a trend.
Im not sure about your PvT numbers so I checked them myself. PvT was 48 games played, 27 Toss won and 21 won by Terran making Toss win rate 56.25% and Terran 43.75%. Closer than what you calculated. Please correct me if Im wrong.
You quoted an extra 3 tournaments, all within last couple months. Terran was dominating tournaments for alot longer than a couple months and changes eventually came. It is too early to say anything right now, time is needed for the meta to develop, IEM Cologne is a perfect example of this.
Taking all TvPs from ASUS, IEM Cologne & Sao Paulo and Code A we're looking at a total of 109 games. Protoss won 63 of those which is equivalent to a 57,8% win ratio. Close to what you said. Contrary to what you claim this is quite a significant number.
However, looking at only the win percentages doesn't tell the whole story. I do not have the data to support it but based on what i've seen in recent TvP meta probably around 1/3 or more of those games where protoss came out victorious it was through some sort of 'cheese'. By this i mean some sort of proxy or unscouted tech resulting in an easy win for the protoss. Terran on the other hand has no corresponding strategies to those of protoss and in turn will pull no easy such as an oracle rolling in completely wrecking a mineral line in seconds. I'm sure you know what i'm talking about.
You can give the game all the time in world, this will not change. It will remain unfair almost by definition til the end of days. Yet you propose we wait it out despite the negative impact it has on the game. You also mention how terran was dominating for a much longer time which implies you have some sort of grudge originating from imbalances years ago in WoL. Not sure how this is going to serve you point either as it's pretty much established that Terran with fast bunkers, fast reapers etc was in fact imbalanced and it was a good thing action was taken.
Your obvious bias towards MC and disregard for what other progamers has to say also does not add to your credibility and you'll find it hard to convince anyone of what skewed. You said, and i quote "I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks". You come across as a true fanboy.
Sorry to tell you though MC does have an interest in keeping the current state of the game as it is. Not implying that hes acting on it but it's not completely outside of the realm of possibilities to suggest that he is.
Did you even read MC's post? He clearly admits that there is imbalance, but that it's due to the maps. Obviously, he has a personal interest in Toss being a strong race since it helps his income and success as a progamer, but I fail to see how he's acting on that interest when he straight up says that there is indeed an imbalance, and puts forth a suggestion to correct that imbalance (changing the map pool). In doing so, he is suggesting a change that makes Toss weaker. So, you tell me how it's within the realm of possibility that he's somehow acting in self-interest when he's fully admitted that there's an imbalance present and has suggested steps to fix said imbalance (not to mention, he also thinks the time warp energy nerf is good).
It's interesting that you ask me if i even read MC's post as you clearly didn't read mine. If you had read it thoroughly before getting carried away with the quote button you'd see that i am in fact replying to Parcelleus' post. It will make sense to you once you fully understand what it is im in fact replying to.
I then clearly state that i am not implying he has acting on that interest but rather that it is not impossible for reasons even a feeble mind could phatom. I will not provide you with those reasons because again, i did not and i am still not implying that he is working on a personal agenda simply because i dont believe he is. At least that was not the motive behind his post. I can easily see it as a possibility though. Personally, i just think he's wrong and i don't agree it's the maps. I wont stop there, i think it would be an enormous mistake to go down that route, start balancing maps (again) around protoss. it would only divert attention away from the real problem (read: protoss).
And no. He's suggesting a change to the map pool which is not the same as making protoss weaker. They might but it's still not the same thing so don't confuse the two. To me that sounds more like "I still wanna keep my toys and see how i can abuse them on a different set of maps". Maybe MC doesn't believe that is what hes saying but that to me is irrelevant as that's the outcome i forsee.
On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote: [quote]
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
You remind me of the clowns who when Terran was dominating sc2 would point to Fruitdealer and Nestea as sole proof of why there was no balance issues (in their own delusional or clueless minds) . Some players can play out of their skin and overcome imbalance or maybe some players find some way to exploit the current meta for a tournie or two, this does not mean all is fine if the person evaluating is not biased or clueless.
Shows how clueless you are as I wouldnt say that all, it is obvious terran was OP for so long.
You can disagree with MC, I do not.
When did MC cry balance when Toss was struggling to get well-placed let alone win a tournament ? He didnt. So to call him biased shows you dont know what you are talking about. How many other 'popular' pros balance whine, lots. That is why I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks, he has come from a place from winning top tier tournaments when his race was considered the weakest.
On February 18 2014 01:52 Pursuit_ wrote:
On February 18 2014 00:34 Parcelleus wrote:
On February 17 2014 23:17 Frex wrote:
On February 17 2014 08:45 Parcelleus wrote:
On February 17 2014 08:31 Xiphos wrote:
On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote: [quote]
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
Quick fact checks, Heromarine was only 0-2 vs Protoss (other 0-2 was vs Innovation), if you discount foreigners you also have to discount MaNa's 0-2 loss vs Polt, also a 8.5% difference is pretty significant (Terran wins 41.5% of the time vs Protoss wins 58.5% of the time- almost a 2:3 ratio).
And you're right, IEM was one of the more balanced win rates in terms of TvP atm and made for some awesome games. If this tournament happened alone I dont think most people would be complaining about TvP being imba. The problem is that we've had this
Preceding it. It's not a one time thing, it's a trend.
Im not sure about your PvT numbers so I checked them myself. PvT was 48 games played, 27 Toss won and 21 won by Terran making Toss win rate 56.25% and Terran 43.75%. Closer than what you calculated. Please correct me if Im wrong.
You quoted an extra 3 tournaments, all within last couple months. Terran was dominating tournaments for alot longer than a couple months and changes eventually came. It is too early to say anything right now, time is needed for the meta to develop, IEM Cologne is a perfect example of this.
Taking all TvPs from ASUS, IEM Cologne & Sao Paulo and Code A we're looking at a total of 109 games. Protoss won 63 of those which is equivalent to a 57,8% win ratio. Close to what you said. Contrary to what you claim this is quite a significant number.
However, looking at only the win percentages doesn't tell the whole story. I do not have the data to support it but based on what i've seen in recent TvP meta probably around 1/3 or more of those games where protoss came out victorious it was through some sort of 'cheese'. By this i mean some sort of proxy or unscouted tech resulting in an easy win for the protoss. Terran on the other hand has no corresponding strategies to those of protoss and in turn will pull no easy such as an oracle rolling in completely wrecking a mineral line in seconds. I'm sure you know what i'm talking about.
You can give the game all the time in world, this will not change. It will remain unfair almost by definition til the end of days. Yet you propose we wait it out despite the negative impact it has on the game. You also mention how terran was dominating for a much longer time which implies you have some sort of grudge originating from imbalances years ago in WoL. Not sure how this is going to serve you point either as it's pretty much established that Terran with fast bunkers, fast reapers etc was in fact imbalanced and it was a good thing action was taken.
Your obvious bias towards MC and disregard for what other progamers has to say also does not add to your credibility and you'll find it hard to convince anyone of what skewed. You said, and i quote "I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks". You come across as a true fanboy.
Sorry to tell you though MC does have an interest in keeping the current state of the game as it is. Not implying that hes acting on it but it's not completely outside of the realm of possibilities to suggest that he is.
Did you even read MC's post? He clearly admits that there is imbalance, but that it's due to the maps. Obviously, he has a personal interest in Toss being a strong race since it helps his income and success as a progamer, but I fail to see how he's acting on that interest when he straight up says that there is indeed an imbalance, and puts forth a suggestion to correct that imbalance (changing the map pool). In doing so, he is suggesting a change that makes Toss weaker. So, you tell me how it's within the realm of possibility that he's somehow acting in self-interest when he's fully admitted that there's an imbalance present and has suggested steps to fix said imbalance (not to mention, he also thinks the time warp energy nerf is good).
It's interesting that you ask me if i even read MC's post as you clearly didn't read mine. If you had read it thoroughly before getting carried away with the quote button you'd see that i am in fact replying to Parcelleus' post. It will make sense to you once you fully understand what it is im in fact replying to.
I then clearly state that i am not implying he has acting on that interest but rather that it is not impossible for reasons even a feeble mind could phatom. I will not provide you with those reasons because again, i did not and i am still not implying that he is working on a personal agenda simply because i dont believe he is. At least that was not the motive behind his post. I can easily see it as a possibility though. Personally, i just think he's wrong and i don't agree it's the maps. I wont stop there, i think it would be an enormous mistake to go down that route, start balancing maps (again) around protoss. it would only divert attention away from the real problem (read: protoss).
And no. He's suggesting a change to the map pool which is not the same as making protoss weaker. They might but it's still not the same thing so don't confuse the two. To me that sounds more like "I still wanna keep my toys and see how i can abuse them on a different set of maps". Maybe MC doesn't believe that is what hes saying but that to me is irrelevant as that's the outcome i forsee.
There are so many things I could say to this, but I'll try to keep it succinct and focus on the main topic. The fact that you think Protoss is somehow the "real" problem rather than the maps is the main issue I have with your reasoning. Let me ask you this: At what point do you think Protoss became OP? Because to me, it seems like this period of Protoss dominance started with the new map pool and the oracle buff (which I felt was completely unnecessary). Before that, balance seemed fine. Yet, there are people who are acting like Protoss has been OP for all this time, and that fixing the maps won't fix Protoss being OP, DESPITE the fact that the use of the new maps correlates with this period of Toss dominance.
Balance is all relative. If the matchups are balanced and you nerf Zerg and Terran, that could also be considered a Toss buff in the sense that it makes Toss relatively stronger. If the matchups are Toss-favored and you change the map pool to no longer favor Toss, then that's a Toss nerf because it makes Toss relatively weaker. IMO, "Buff" and "nerf" don't necessarily have to imply a direct change to the race, but rather, just a change that somehow makes the race win more or less.
"I still wanna keep my toys and see how i can abuse them on a different set of maps" also makes it sound like you're just mad about having to deal with the things Toss can throw at you, rather than actually caring about balance. If that different set of maps causes the matchups to gravitate closer to 50/50 across the board, you shouldn't care about whether or not Toss gets to keep its "toys".
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
You remind me of the clowns who when Terran was dominating sc2 would point to Fruitdealer and Nestea as sole proof of why there was no balance issues (in their own delusional or clueless minds) . Some players can play out of their skin and overcome imbalance or maybe some players find some way to exploit the current meta for a tournie or two, this does not mean all is fine if the person evaluating is not biased or clueless.
Shows how clueless you are as I wouldnt say that all, it is obvious terran was OP for so long.
You can disagree with MC, I do not.
When did MC cry balance when Toss was struggling to get well-placed let alone win a tournament ? He didnt. So to call him biased shows you dont know what you are talking about. How many other 'popular' pros balance whine, lots. That is why I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks, he has come from a place from winning top tier tournaments when his race was considered the weakest.
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
Quick fact checks, Heromarine was only 0-2 vs Protoss (other 0-2 was vs Innovation), if you discount foreigners you also have to discount MaNa's 0-2 loss vs Polt, also a 8.5% difference is pretty significant (Terran wins 41.5% of the time vs Protoss wins 58.5% of the time- almost a 2:3 ratio).
And you're right, IEM was one of the more balanced win rates in terms of TvP atm and made for some awesome games. If this tournament happened alone I dont think most people would be complaining about TvP being imba. The problem is that we've had this
Preceding it. It's not a one time thing, it's a trend.
Im not sure about your PvT numbers so I checked them myself. PvT was 48 games played, 27 Toss won and 21 won by Terran making Toss win rate 56.25% and Terran 43.75%. Closer than what you calculated. Please correct me if Im wrong.
You quoted an extra 3 tournaments, all within last couple months. Terran was dominating tournaments for alot longer than a couple months and changes eventually came. It is too early to say anything right now, time is needed for the meta to develop, IEM Cologne is a perfect example of this.
You also lack basic reading comprehension. I never mentioned MC in my post, it was directed towards your quotes especially the "That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting". If I was mentioning MC's OP I would have said so, but you decided to go off on a silly rant.
MC usually knows his shit like this. he's very outspoken about balance and I quite like that he is- people will say his perspective is biased towards P, but I think he's dead on in this case.
On February 19 2014 03:38 Mortal wrote: MC usually knows his shit like this. he's very outspoken about balance and I quite like that he is- people will say his perspective is biased towards P, but I think he's dead on in this case.
Yep, it's also worth noting that there have been times when Toss was considered weak and MC said that balance was fine and that Toss players just need to get better. Overall, he has a good track record for being honest and avoiding self-serving statements about balance when he had the opportunity.
I could say the same to you my friend. The fact that you dont see that the real problem is protoss is beyond me. I could go ahead and explain to you everything that is wrong about the match up but i'd just be wasting my time. It's been discussed over and over so i'm not getting into that.
My point still stands: The maps are already limited alot more by protoss design as a race than by the other two races, mainly because of forcefields and wall off issues. Hence why we should deal with protoss rather than the maps.
Assuming both a change of map pool and a direct nerf to protoss would achieve the same thing, i.e. making protoss weaker, how do you motivate limiting the map design for future map makers over tweaking protoss race?
"I still wanna keep my toys and see how i can abuse them on a different set of maps" also makes it sound like you're just mad about having to deal with the things Toss can throw at you, rather than actually caring about balance. If that different set of maps causes the matchups to gravitate closer to 50/50 across the board, you shouldn't care about whether or not Toss gets to keep its "toys".
There is nothing contratictory about caring for both game balance and general design of the game at the same time. I care for both and i think you're just trying to dismiss me as an angry Terran rather than reflect over what i'm saying to you.
On February 19 2014 03:57 Joner wrote: You're right, the oracle buff was unnecessary.
I could say the same to you my friend. The fact that you dont see that the real problem is protoss is beyond me. I could go ahead and explain to you everything that is wrong about the match up but i'd just be wasting my time. It's been discussed over and over so i'm not getting into that.
My point still stands: The maps are already limited alot more by protoss design as a race than by the other two races, mainly because of forcefields and wall off issues. Hence why we should deal with protoss rather than the maps.
Assuming both a change of map pool and a direct nerf to protoss would achieve the same thing, i.e. making protoss weaker, how do you motivate limiting the map design for future map makers over tweaking protoss race?
I don't see the real problem being Protoss, because as I said earlier, Protoss was not OP before the new map pool and the oracle change came along. Maybe if you had actually answered my question about when Protoss became OP (as in, what recent change caused this period of Protoss dominance to occur), we could have a more in-depth discussion about whether the maps or the race should mainly be changed.
It's hard to answer the question in your last paragraph because it has various assumptions behind it that I disagree with. I don't think that there's sufficient evidence to suggest that somehow the Protoss race limits map design more than other races do. There have been plenty of maps in the past that have favored one race or another due to various design choices of the maps plus the specific strengths of whatever race the map favored. For example, maps with lots of open space and large ramps favored Zerg, smaller maps generally favored Terran, etc.
On February 19 2014 03:57 Joner wrote: There is nothing contratictory about caring for both game balance and general design of the game at the same time. I care for both and i think you're just trying to dismiss me as an angry Terran rather than reflect over what i'm saying to you.
I'm not saying that the two are contradictory, but just that it sounds like you care more about not having to deal with Toss tactics that you perceive as annoying rather than achieving balance.
I just want to reiterate the main issue I have here because I think it might be getting lost in all the sub-arguments. I can clearly see changes that correlate with Toss starting to dominate at the top level. Those changes are the new map pool and the oracle buff. However, we have people who are using this as an opportunity to make all sorts of claims about problems with Toss design and that Toss is generally OP in ways that have nothing to do with the changes that caused Toss to become OP in the first place. Why not just revert those changes (or in the case of the map pool, fix the map pool) and see what happens?
On February 15 2014 21:52 TheDwf wrote: I'm posting this because I see too many people saying Zerg is imba. ZvP = 50/50. Really 50/50. Don't blame maps or whatever… The worse player loses. Protoss that whine really don't have any shame. ZvT = I'll tell you why ZvT is so imbalanced. In terms of game balance, there's no problem, right? But in ladder maps Zerg is 65/35 vs Terran. It's really depressing for Terran. Why? It's because we have 4 maps where Brood lords are very strong. Daybreak, Akilon Wastes, Entombed Valley, Antiga. After that we have Cloud Kingdom which is one of the most favourable map for Zerg vs Terran. If you look at Whirlwind, it's 50/50. Terran have an ok time on this map. This is not about game balance, the maps for ZvT is just too good for Zerg. Before, Hellions and Ghost Snipes that swayed the game in ZvT both got nerfed. Now games where zergs easily masses up the composition without deterrence is here. I really didn't want to talk about balance whine because I'm a pro player, but People are saying that zerg players don't even try hard and win due to the race As a veteran, I feel bad for players that get all the hate and feel angry about it. Sniper and RorO didn't win GSL after they were fooling around for a week. They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying they were "patch zergs". In my eyes, the two Zergs played well and that's why they went through. As programers they really learnt how to build infests and cast fungals well. Also I see a lot of talk about nerfing Fungal but if we nerf that Zerg gets fucked. DK-nim also knows this and this is why he isn't nerfing it. Infested Terran was a good ability for 25 energy and I'm glad it got nerfed. With no balancing, just a change of maps will bring 50/50 in ZvT. I think it was maps why Zergs won last GSLs. Think about it, last season had the same balancing, but before the map changes was terran really that bad against Zerg?
Genius. It's more or less like this.
MC has a bit of a point, but overall he's biased and not being completely honest.
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
You remind me of the clowns who when Terran was dominating sc2 would point to Fruitdealer and Nestea as sole proof of why there was no balance issues (in their own delusional or clueless minds) . Some players can play out of their skin and overcome imbalance or maybe some players find some way to exploit the current meta for a tournie or two, this does not mean all is fine if the person evaluating is not biased or clueless.
Shows how clueless you are as I wouldnt say that all, it is obvious terran was OP for so long.
You can disagree with MC, I do not.
When did MC cry balance when Toss was struggling to get well-placed let alone win a tournament ? He didnt. So to call him biased shows you dont know what you are talking about. How many other 'popular' pros balance whine, lots. That is why I never take their comments seriously, but when MC speaks, he has come from a place from winning top tier tournaments when his race was considered the weakest.
On February 18 2014 01:52 Pursuit_ wrote:
On February 18 2014 00:34 Parcelleus wrote:
On February 17 2014 23:17 Frex wrote:
On February 17 2014 08:45 Parcelleus wrote:
On February 17 2014 08:31 Xiphos wrote:
On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote:
On February 17 2014 02:06 Xiphos wrote:
On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote: For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time.
The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss.
Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes.
IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach.
And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past.
Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year.
Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)?
Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
PvT 31-22, which is 58,5% in favor of protoss in IEM Cologne only.
What is this nonsense you are saying that Terran doing just fine beating Toss in IEM cologne?
Only 8.5% away from 50, not far at all. Also, Qxc (1-4) and Heromarine (0-4) account for 8 of those losses. And they were not exactly expected to make it through considering their opponents anyway. Having said that, I watched the Qxc vs Patience series and Qxc was very impressive. So when you take those players results out, you get a very close near 50% winrate. Not to mention Polt taking out 2 tier-1 Protosses in Classic and Rain.
Jjakji recently won the IEM qualifier and lost to Rain, who is one of the best Toss players in the world.
Dunno what happened to Innovation vs HerO as I didnt see that, will check out the VOD eventually.
Quick fact checks, Heromarine was only 0-2 vs Protoss (other 0-2 was vs Innovation), if you discount foreigners you also have to discount MaNa's 0-2 loss vs Polt, also a 8.5% difference is pretty significant (Terran wins 41.5% of the time vs Protoss wins 58.5% of the time- almost a 2:3 ratio).
And you're right, IEM was one of the more balanced win rates in terms of TvP atm and made for some awesome games. If this tournament happened alone I dont think most people would be complaining about TvP being imba. The problem is that we've had this
Preceding it. It's not a one time thing, it's a trend.
Im not sure about your PvT numbers so I checked them myself. PvT was 48 games played, 27 Toss won and 21 won by Terran making Toss win rate 56.25% and Terran 43.75%. Closer than what you calculated. Please correct me if Im wrong.
You quoted an extra 3 tournaments, all within last couple months. Terran was dominating tournaments for alot longer than a couple months and changes eventually came. It is too early to say anything right now, time is needed for the meta to develop, IEM Cologne is a perfect example of this.
You also lack basic reading comprehension. I never mentioned MC in my post, it was directed towards your quotes especially the "That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting". If I was mentioning MC's OP I would have said so, but you decided to go off on a silly rant.
I actually think over time Terran WILL get better vs Protoss since I feel like the majority of the 'imbalance' in the matchup is the huge variety of all-ins Protoss has at their disposal. As Terran players get better at scouting and reacting to the plethora of different Protoss options (making Protoss aggressive options less likely to give them an advantage or outright win the game) it will become more likely for the game to go into an even macro scenario which I think tends to be pretty even (i.e. the better player wins).
The problem with having the game balanced this way is that Protoss will always have all the options at their disposal and Terran will always be stuck reacting. Early game, You scout your opponent's build and react correctly (almost all requiring different responses too complex too explain concisely here), mid game you scout your opponent's first AoE tech and react accordingly (get ghosts vs HT / Archons, Vikings vs Collosi) and have the option to pull SCVs if you've gotten an army lead or want to take a risk, then late game you're stuck trying to create the composition that will counter your opponents (Ghosts for HT / Archons, Marines, Marauders or Hellbats for Zealots, Marauders for Stalkers, Vikings for Collosi and Pheonix, extra supply in Medivacs / Mauraders) or playing a super drop heavy / multitasking based playstyle ala Polt trying to whittle your opponent down (a style which will get worse over time as Protoss get better at defending against it).
Given a statistically balanced game, it will always favor the players who has more options / gets to make decisions, and right now that's Protoss without a doubt and always will be until core issues with the matchup are addressed. Maps wont let Terran be aggressive; they can only limit Protoss options. Nerfing blink wont give Terran options; it will just limit Protoss options. The game needs to have balance and especially variety from a design standpoint before we give it balance from a stats standpoint, and right now from a design standpoint the matchup favors Protoss too much at all stages of the game.
I'll freely admit that win rates have been worse in other matchups at various points in time, and I honestly think that if Terran were able to consistently get the scouting information they needed to hold the variety of Protoss openers without getting behind (They have to tools to deal with anything, it's the information that's the problem) there would be no issues with the matchup in terms of win rates, but in all the time I've been watching SC2 never before have I seen a matchup where a race has as few options as Terran does right now in TvP.
As for the numbers, I didn't do any of the math myself, I was just responding to the person who said a 58.5% win rate for Protoss isn't significant. Like I said, IEM alone wouldn't indicate anything, but it does support the growing trend of TvP favoring Protoss due to Terran struggling to scout effectively in the early game and being forced to play reactively (see: the entire HerO vs Innovation series, qxc vs Patience G3, ect).
Edit: Got 31-22 when I counted up win/loss, which is 58.5%. If we take out foreigner vs korean games as suggested (qxc 1-4, heromarine 0-2, mana 0-2) we end up with 25-19, which is 56.8%.
On February 19 2014 03:57 Joner wrote: You're right, the oracle buff was unnecessary.
I could say the same to you my friend. The fact that you dont see that the real problem is protoss is beyond me. I could go ahead and explain to you everything that is wrong about the match up but i'd just be wasting my time. It's been discussed over and over so i'm not getting into that.
My point still stands: The maps are already limited alot more by protoss design as a race than by the other two races, mainly because of forcefields and wall off issues. Hence why we should deal with protoss rather than the maps.
Assuming both a change of map pool and a direct nerf to protoss would achieve the same thing, i.e. making protoss weaker, how do you motivate limiting the map design for future map makers over tweaking protoss race?
I don't see the real problem being Protoss, because as I said earlier, Protoss was not OP before the new map pool and the oracle change came along. Maybe if you had actually answered my question about when Protoss became OP (as in, what recent change caused this period of Protoss dominance to occur), we could have a more in-depth discussion about whether the maps or the race should mainly be changed.
It's hard to answer the question in your last paragraph because it has various assumptions behind it that I disagree with. I don't think that there's sufficient evidence to suggest that somehow the Protoss race limits map design more than other races do. There have been plenty of maps in the past that have favored one race or another due to various design choices of the maps plus the specific strengths of whatever race the map favored. For example, maps with lots of open space and large ramps favored Zerg, smaller maps generally favored Terran, etc.
On February 19 2014 03:57 Joner wrote: There is nothing contratictory about caring for both game balance and general design of the game at the same time. I care for both and i think you're just trying to dismiss me as an angry Terran rather than reflect over what i'm saying to you.
I'm not saying that the two are contradictory, but just that it sounds like you care more about not having to deal with Toss tactics that you perceive as annoying rather than achieving balance.
I just want to reiterate the main issue I have here because I think it might be getting lost in all the sub-arguments. I can clearly see changes that correlate with Toss starting to dominate at the top level. Those changes are the new map pool and the oracle buff. However, we have people who are using this as an opportunity to make all sorts of claims about problems with Toss design and that Toss is generally OP in ways that have nothing to do with the changes that caused Toss to become OP in the first place. Why not just revert those changes (or in the case of the map pool, fix the map pool) and see what happens?
I've never phrased it "protoss is OP". I said there is a problem with protoss. Hence why i didn't answer your question. It's just as full of assumptions as you acuse my question of being. I dont have an interest in having an in depht about this subject with someone whom, clearly, already made up his mind about what the solution should be. I'll refer you to some of the things Pursuit mentioned in his last post cause i'm not gonna type up all that just for you. I fundamentally disagree with you and it's becoming more and more apparent that my words are nothing but air to you and frankly you're starting to bore me.
You're so fixed on the need for a big change for the metagame to swing in a race's favour. You keep asking the same question just so you can the get the answer you're so looking for: that its the maps that made protoss strong. First of all you need to realize that with the release of Hots terran structure didnt change much. A few things were added such as medivac speed and mines but the general way of playing TvP didn't change.. Protoss on the other hand got a MSC which they solely rely on for staying alive in the early game now. Naturally this adjustment took some time to get used to especially when you have to deal with sudden medivac boosts and mines. However as time went on they learned to defend against the new toys that terran had got and slowly but surely realized how amazingly greedy they can be. In between all that the mine got nerfed, the oracle buffed and so did the DT movespeed if im not mistaken. We have now arrived to todays metagame where protoss' are stomping terrans like there's no tomorrow.
Sure you can argue all you want it's solely the maps but there are other factors at play and pointing at the maps saying "this is the problem" is pointing the wrong direction.
On February 19 2014 03:57 Joner wrote: You're right, the oracle buff was unnecessary.
I could say the same to you my friend. The fact that you dont see that the real problem is protoss is beyond me. I could go ahead and explain to you everything that is wrong about the match up but i'd just be wasting my time. It's been discussed over and over so i'm not getting into that.
My point still stands: The maps are already limited alot more by protoss design as a race than by the other two races, mainly because of forcefields and wall off issues. Hence why we should deal with protoss rather than the maps.
Assuming both a change of map pool and a direct nerf to protoss would achieve the same thing, i.e. making protoss weaker, how do you motivate limiting the map design for future map makers over tweaking protoss race?
I don't see the real problem being Protoss, because as I said earlier, Protoss was not OP before the new map pool and the oracle change came along. Maybe if you had actually answered my question about when Protoss became OP (as in, what recent change caused this period of Protoss dominance to occur), we could have a more in-depth discussion about whether the maps or the race should mainly be changed.
It's hard to answer the question in your last paragraph because it has various assumptions behind it that I disagree with. I don't think that there's sufficient evidence to suggest that somehow the Protoss race limits map design more than other races do. There have been plenty of maps in the past that have favored one race or another due to various design choices of the maps plus the specific strengths of whatever race the map favored. For example, maps with lots of open space and large ramps favored Zerg, smaller maps generally favored Terran, etc.
On February 19 2014 03:57 Joner wrote: There is nothing contratictory about caring for both game balance and general design of the game at the same time. I care for both and i think you're just trying to dismiss me as an angry Terran rather than reflect over what i'm saying to you.
I'm not saying that the two are contradictory, but just that it sounds like you care more about not having to deal with Toss tactics that you perceive as annoying rather than achieving balance.
I just want to reiterate the main issue I have here because I think it might be getting lost in all the sub-arguments. I can clearly see changes that correlate with Toss starting to dominate at the top level. Those changes are the new map pool and the oracle buff. However, we have people who are using this as an opportunity to make all sorts of claims about problems with Toss design and that Toss is generally OP in ways that have nothing to do with the changes that caused Toss to become OP in the first place. Why not just revert those changes (or in the case of the map pool, fix the map pool) and see what happens?
I've never phrased it "protoss is OP". I said there is a problem with protoss. Hence why i didn't answer your question. It's just as full of assumptions as you acuse my question of being. I dont have an interest in having an in depht about this subject with someone whom, clearly, already made up his mind about what the solution should be. I'll refer you to some of the things Pursuit mentioned in his last post cause i'm not gonna type up all that just for you. I fundamentally disagree with you and it's becoming more and more apparent that my words are nothing but air to you and frankly you're starting to bore me.
You're so fixed on the need for a big change for the metagame to swing in a race's favour. You keep asking the same question just so you can the get the answer you're so looking for: that its the maps that made protoss strong. First of all you need to realize that with the release of Hots terran structure didnt change much. A few things were added such as medivac speed and mines but the general way of playing TvP didn't change.. Protoss on the other hand got a MSC which they solely rely on for staying alive in the early game now. Naturally this adjustment took some time to get used to especially when you have to deal with sudden medivac boosts and mines. However as time went on they learned to defend against the new toys that terran had got and slowly but surely realized how amazingly greedy they can be. In between all that the mine got nerfed, the oracle buffed and so did the DT movespeed if im not mistaken. We have now arrived to todays metagame where protoss' are stomping terrans like there's no tomorrow.
Sure you can argue all you want it's solely the maps but there are other factors at play and pointing at the maps saying "this is the problem" is pointing the wrong direction.
The first part of your post sounds like nitpicking semantics to me. I don't think anyone can deny that Protoss is currently OP on a winrate basis. The PvT numbers are pretty damning and the general performance of Toss players at the top level is more dominant than I've ever seen. Don't try to equate the level of assumptions that we're making, because I'm positive that "Protoss is OP" is a far more reasonable statement easily backed up with empirical evidence than "Protoss design dictates maps significantly more than Zerg or Terran design".
The widow mine nerf didn't really affect PvT as far as I can tell. WMs were mainly used to defend against oracle harass which is unaffected by the splash nerf, and were sometimes used for harass, but they were never a key part of a Terran army composition in PvT. WMs are far more prevalent in TvZ and that's why they were nerfed. And as for DT movespeed, you are indeed mistaken - DT movement speed has not changed. As for the oracle buff, I've said before that I'm fine with reverting it since I felt it was completely unnecessary. You make it sound like some non-existent DT speed buff and weaker WMs are a huge part of why PvT is in its current state. If there ARE problems beyond the map pool and the oracle nerf, DTs and weaker WM splash are certainly not the issues.
In the end, I simply find it a lot more likely that the relatively recent changes that correlate with Toss dominance are far more likely sources for said dominance, rather than it being due to a bunch of stuff that's been in the game for a long time that people have always been complaining about.
57.8% is a number completely justifiable through map imbalance. If the map-pool heavily favors protoss then a percentage increase of 5%~ isnt exactly hard to imagine.
The other 2.8% ? Well, with such an ongoing problem i wouldn't pin it entirely on the map-pools. Perhaps a major aspect of it, something else needs to be looked at. Although i would only look for a minor tweak of a protoss' strong point.
On February 19 2014 05:39 Omnishroud wrote: 57.8% is a number completely justifiable through map imbalance. If the map-pool heavily favors protoss then a percentage increase of 5%~ isnt exactly hard to imagine.
The other 2.8% ? Well, with such an ongoing problem i wouldn't pin it entirely on the map-pools. Perhaps a major aspect of it, something else needs to be looked at. Although i would only look for a minor tweak of a protoss' strong point.
Since when do numbers tell the whole story? PvZ during BL/Infestor vs. Archon toilet was within 5% of being balanced, that doesn't mean the MU was playable.
On February 19 2014 03:57 Joner wrote: You're right, the oracle buff was unnecessary.
I could say the same to you my friend. The fact that you dont see that the real problem is protoss is beyond me. I could go ahead and explain to you everything that is wrong about the match up but i'd just be wasting my time. It's been discussed over and over so i'm not getting into that.
My point still stands: The maps are already limited alot more by protoss design as a race than by the other two races, mainly because of forcefields and wall off issues. Hence why we should deal with protoss rather than the maps.
Assuming both a change of map pool and a direct nerf to protoss would achieve the same thing, i.e. making protoss weaker, how do you motivate limiting the map design for future map makers over tweaking protoss race?
I don't see the real problem being Protoss, because as I said earlier, Protoss was not OP before the new map pool and the oracle change came along. Maybe if you had actually answered my question about when Protoss became OP (as in, what recent change caused this period of Protoss dominance to occur), we could have a more in-depth discussion about whether the maps or the race should mainly be changed.
It's hard to answer the question in your last paragraph because it has various assumptions behind it that I disagree with. I don't think that there's sufficient evidence to suggest that somehow the Protoss race limits map design more than other races do. There have been plenty of maps in the past that have favored one race or another due to various design choices of the maps plus the specific strengths of whatever race the map favored. For example, maps with lots of open space and large ramps favored Zerg, smaller maps generally favored Terran, etc.
On February 19 2014 03:57 Joner wrote: There is nothing contratictory about caring for both game balance and general design of the game at the same time. I care for both and i think you're just trying to dismiss me as an angry Terran rather than reflect over what i'm saying to you.
I'm not saying that the two are contradictory, but just that it sounds like you care more about not having to deal with Toss tactics that you perceive as annoying rather than achieving balance.
I just want to reiterate the main issue I have here because I think it might be getting lost in all the sub-arguments. I can clearly see changes that correlate with Toss starting to dominate at the top level. Those changes are the new map pool and the oracle buff. However, we have people who are using this as an opportunity to make all sorts of claims about problems with Toss design and that Toss is generally OP in ways that have nothing to do with the changes that caused Toss to become OP in the first place. Why not just revert those changes (or in the case of the map pool, fix the map pool) and see what happens?
I've never phrased it "protoss is OP". I said there is a problem with protoss. Hence why i didn't answer your question. It's just as full of assumptions as you acuse my question of being. I dont have an interest in having an in depht about this subject with someone whom, clearly, already made up his mind about what the solution should be. I'll refer you to some of the things Pursuit mentioned in his last post cause i'm not gonna type up all that just for you. I fundamentally disagree with you and it's becoming more and more apparent that my words are nothing but air to you and frankly you're starting to bore me.
You're so fixed on the need for a big change for the metagame to swing in a race's favour. You keep asking the same question just so you can the get the answer you're so looking for: that its the maps that made protoss strong. First of all you need to realize that with the release of Hots terran structure didnt change much. A few things were added such as medivac speed and mines but the general way of playing TvP didn't change.. Protoss on the other hand got a MSC which they solely rely on for staying alive in the early game now. Naturally this adjustment took some time to get used to especially when you have to deal with sudden medivac boosts and mines. However as time went on they learned to defend against the new toys that terran had got and slowly but surely realized how amazingly greedy they can be. In between all that the mine got nerfed, the oracle buffed and so did the DT movespeed if im not mistaken. We have now arrived to todays metagame where protoss' are stomping terrans like there's no tomorrow.
Sure you can argue all you want it's solely the maps but there are other factors at play and pointing at the maps saying "this is the problem" is pointing the wrong direction.
The first part of your post sounds like nitpicking semantics to me. I don't think anyone can deny that Protoss is currently OP on a winrate basis. The PvT numbers are pretty damning and the general performance of Toss players at the top level is more dominant than I've ever seen. Don't try to equate the level of assumptions that we're making, because I'm positive that "Protoss is OP" is a far more reasonable statement easily backed up with empirical evidence than "Protoss design dictates maps significantly more than Zerg or Terran design".
The widow mine nerf didn't really affect PvT as far as I can tell. WMs were mainly used to defend against oracle harass which is unaffected by the splash nerf, and were sometimes used for harass, but they were never a key part of a Terran army composition in PvT. WMs are far more prevalent in TvZ and that's why they were nerfed. And as for DT movespeed, you are indeed mistaken - DT movement speed has not changed. As for the oracle buff, I've said before that I'm fine with reverting it since I felt it was completely unnecessary. You make it sound like some non-existent DT speed buff and weaker WMs are a huge part of why PvT is in its current state. If there ARE problems beyond the map pool and the oracle nerf, DTs and weaker WM splash are certainly not the issues.
In the end, I simply find it a lot more likely that the relatively recent changes that correlate with Toss dominance are far more likely sources for said dominance, rather than it being due to a bunch of stuff that's been in the game for a long time that people have always been complaining about.
I stand corrected on the DT movespeed buff. Was probably a propsed change that never went through.
Im not nitpicking semantics. My point is there is a problem with protoss, besides being overpowered. Not sure how i should communicate with you as you just don't understand what im saying. I feel im repeating myself over and over for you.
You ask for reasons as to why winrates have swinged in favour of protoss besides the maps and i provided a possible set for you. You choose now to dismiss those reasons as implausible. I also mentioned other things in my previous post besides the WM and oracle changes but you again simply pretended like you didn't read all that (maybe you didn't). Instead you start talking about TvZ and your own opinion on the oracle buff. That's not where we are currently in the discussion. If you can't follow a simple dialog without derailing into other subjects it is quite impossible to convey any sort of logic to you.
They way forcefields alteres terrain and what impact this has on any given map is intuitively quite easy to understand and i'm sure most people would agree on that. Since WoL protoss has been relying on blocking the ramp with one forcefield for early defense which is why you see ramps that are exactly one forcefield wide. Granted, the game has evolved since the introduction of the MSC and so has protoss early game defense strategies. There is however a true corelation between ramp size to main and natural and forcefields.
I've given you enough of my attention. Please continue in your state of denial. I however will not be responding to your posts anymore.
On February 17 2014 13:42 KingAce wrote: MC was winning when his race was statistically the worst in the game. And that was for a long time too. I think he's word carries a lot more weight than terran emotions.
This makes no sense. MC is admitting there is imbalance, in his word 70-30 on 5 or more maps. Which, btw, is a vast majority of the map pool. Re-read MC's post please. Ty.
Therefore, terran "emotions" or frustrations, are warranted and understandable.
Personally I know the game is unbalanced. As long as core issues are ignored the game will always have problems. But it feels good to know that terrans are now feeling what we've felt for so long. The burning sensation in your stomach, been there done that.
Horrible way of looking at the game and extremely bias. Terrible mentality...retribution is horrendous idea when it comes to balancing. Next time another race is imbalanced after this why not everyone just say this: "But it feels good to know that Xrace are now feeling what we've felt for so long. The burning sensation in your stomach, been there done that."
Correct! Protoss players dont deserve their spot in the sun because they are the scum of the earth, and I cant get cheap wins against them anymore. Oh, ooops, I forgot that we are claiming the moral highground when our race is losing out... I mean to say: "retribution is horrendous idea when it comes to balancing". Therefore, protoss should be nerfed hard, in order to restore balance and promote good sportsmanship. wink*
No one race deserves to be imbalanced period, it was dumb when Terrans were wining, it was dumb when Zergs were winning everything, and it's dumb now. This "it's our turn now in the sun" is stupid. But hey if you want to call them hypocrites and then join them in the process go ahead.
Forget the win percentages. Just look at how practically every tournament always seems to have the 60%-70% protoss player base in it. I've been noticing that for a while now. Terran was like that when it was "op". Zerg was like that with BL / Infestor. Now toss is like that. Its the maps though right?
I think maps play a big part, but it's not really the end all be all. From what I see, Protoss's power comes mainly from the Terran not knowing what the hell is coming. It just gets worse on maps with blink because there's ANOTHER super powerful option that can kill you too. Then playing defensive brings a super short midgame, and a late game protoss where the Terran doesn't get that much done = gg
On February 19 2014 14:08 Chaggi wrote: I think maps play a big part, but it's not really the end all be all. From what I see, Protoss's power comes mainly from the Terran not knowing what the hell is coming. It just gets worse on maps with blink because there's ANOTHER super powerful option that can kill you too. Then playing defensive brings a super short midgame, and a late game protoss where the Terran doesn't get that much done = gg
yeah. i think some tweaks to make terran able to scout and/or defend all the early game options eas(ier) would really really help the MU. terran needs to be able to dictate the tempo midgame otherwise protoss has already won, just a '10 minute death animation for the terran' -NonY
I think the the most impressive thing about protoss players is how creatively they utilize the plethora of viable tech paths they have at their disposal HerO, SoS, MC etc. With too many of these tech paths viable and available they're just picking what to poison us and I can't see the genius in it like before. I get the feeling ANYONE can do it now. I do think they absolutely need to have some op spells and tech units because isn't that supposed to be the point of a highly technologically advanced alien race? I don't mind they have storms that can decimate countless amounts of bio or colossi, or dt's. I don't particularly care either whether or not there's any mirco potential at all in their units. All I care is that I can at the very least identify what the fuck they're doing, early enough to have a chance
Arnold in the movie predator was able to figure out hey, I'm facing a protoss DT in the jungle. Sure he was a human with shitty tech. But you know what? He threw some muddy war paint on, got some pointy sticks and used every boy scout trapping trick in the book to bridge the 'power' gap. Before he knew what was coming, his whole team died, but they eventually were able to make a stand. Blizzard, protoss players, knowledge is power and either we get outright power like beefy units like you guys or we get the knowledge. Somethings gotta give. I prefer the knowledge because terran isn't designed to have uber powerful units in the SC that's a protoss staple.
But the very threat of toss openings mean terrans are camped the fuck out in their base. Two stalkers and MSC with half-wit positioning can deny reaper re entry to keep and eye on tech and scan is the only option. Making DT's cheap mean with the Twilight Council alone both getting blink and or DT's are great GAME ENDING AUTO WIN options if not scouted. Now toss are getting to the point where they're just proxying shit cause they get carte blanche on the map whether they have units or not just because a good terran isn't pushing out unless he knows what's up. They know they have these auto win options to play and they can read terran like an open book because we don't have early aggressive options since there's a MSC. Random shit out on map means you're not scanning shit, and whether you're InnoVation or Flash or joe fucking blow on ladder you don't know what's up until the toss player wants you to know.
So now we're at a point even the GOOD terrans don't know if it's 1 base blink, or DT's, or oracle. Or two base blink. Or two base blink into four stalkers walking around outside your base while you have SCV's off the line to repair and have a shit load of bunkers and units EVERYONE WATCHING THE GAME knows you don't need but you. So, toss drops a third. Usually, by the time the terran realizes the rouse is up storms finished, there's a msc, and counter pushing is a bad option but pretty much the only one since you're economically so far behind. Or as ToD surmised oracle into twilight into blink, into four gate (I haven't see that yet god forbid). Or cancel blink into DT. And that's just twilight tech. Either terran gets scouting options so we can identify, and play defense. Or we get some sort of offensive option that somehow circumvents the existence of the MSC.
Terran has mine drop, banshee, cloaked or uncloaked and they're both defended the same damn way they're not nearly as good as DT's/Oracles. I don't see the need for them to have all the offensive options while feeling so safe and secure with the MSC why can't they have one or the other? Maybe in tournaments terrans need pull an scv early before the depot just to make sure no probe gets out on map AND open reaper lol.
On February 19 2014 14:08 Chaggi wrote: I think maps play a big part, but it's not really the end all be all. From what I see, Protoss's power comes mainly from the Terran not knowing what the hell is coming. It just gets worse on maps with blink because there's ANOTHER super powerful option that can kill you too. Then playing defensive brings a super short midgame, and a late game protoss where the Terran doesn't get that much done = gg
yeah. i think some tweaks to make terran able to scout and/or defend all the early game options eas(ier) would really really help the MU. terran needs to be able to dictate the tempo midgame otherwise protoss has already won, just a '10 minute death animation for the terran' -NonY
I honestly think making Protoss harder, even looking harder, would make a LOT of the whining go away. I know for me personally, when I either watch pros, or when I watch my own replays - especially if it's against a Zealot/Templar/Archon all in, I'm just thinking, this is an a-move, while I HAVE to micro. Even now, after talking with friends that play Protoss, watching pros in GSL qualifiers (literally standing behind them), I'm not necessarily sure that Protoss is as hard to play mechanically as Terran. If you watch Zergs in TvZ, it's very easy to see that if they don't micro against mines, they're completely screwed. If they don't control mutas perfectly, they can lose a LOT cause they're so fragile. I don't play Protoss, so I don't know the small nuisances and for me, when I make personal complaints about Protoss on ladder, it's really cause I don't think they're playing the same "hard" game as me. I don't think my views are totally valid or true, especially at the pro level, but if Blizzard can change the perception that Protoss isn't just 1-A, that there is a lot of mechanical difficulty in playing Protoss, I think a lot of the complaints would go away. At least from the lower league players.
The thing I dislike about the Mothership Core the most is that it's yet another unit that negates the terrain of the map. Generally in RTS games air units are a lot weaker than the ground units, because they add so much utility, being able to negate high grounds, see high ground or find weakness in the defense, where anti air is missing. However in SC2 a lot of the air units are very strong, not to mention the transport ships. There's also a plethora of ground units that can cliff-walk: Colossus, Reaper, Blink. And so when you make maps with such big mains it favours these kind of units and because it's the main base (early game,) it's more often than not the harass units. So while Reapers, Blink Stalkers, Oracles, Medivacs, Warp Prism's all are stronger and that's mostly fine. The Mothership Core is just the number one early unit and even accomodate Blink play, which is already strong on these types of maps. Nerfing the vision will be a step in the right direction, but we need to consider maps before we start to consider nerfing the core unit, because on the flip side, when we start to see some maps go in the opposite direction, e.g bad Blink maps, this kind of play might just get killed off.
EPT
, see SH whine, which is basically zerg's only option at a late game.
wink* 
