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On February 17 2014 08:31 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 02:06 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote:
For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time. The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss. Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes. IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach. And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past. Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year. Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)? Get your critical thinking cap on.
That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting.
As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role.
ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss.
Get your reality cap on.
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Genuine question (and perhaps this should be in the general balance discussion except that some people just mentioned oracles on the last page):
For the people that feel oracles are too strong, is the speed buff really the biggest problem or is it the sheer amount of damage output that oracles have (particularly versus light but it's very high overall)? I usually see people complain about the speed but is that just because it's the most recent change. People were complaining about them before and didn't like the idea of them getting buffed, so if they were too strong, is it really the speed, do you think?
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On February 17 2014 08:45 Parcelleus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 08:31 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 02:06 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote:
For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time. The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss. Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes. IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach. And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past. Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year. Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)? Get your critical thinking cap on. That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting. As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role. ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss. Get your reality cap on.
yup the same tourney where the only terran that did decently against toss was polt. the one and only terran outlier that somehow represents the entire terran playerbase.
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Terran QQing is kinda justified. But yeah the zergs? lol
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I have an idea...
Why not fix blink stalkers so it doesn't matter what map you play on, it's 50/50? I'd rather have that than have to thumbs down a map because blink stalkers are too good on it. Having to narrow down the map pool is retarded. All maps are meant to be played.
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On February 17 2014 08:45 Parcelleus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 08:31 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 02:06 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote:
For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time. The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss. Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes. IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach. And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past. Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year. Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)? Get your critical thinking cap on. That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting. As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role. ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss. Get your reality cap on.
"Get your reality cap on" LOL
Let's see, are you referring to when Hero 4-0 ForGG? Or when Jjakji barely makes it through the protoss in his group? Or when Classic smashed HeroMarine? Maybe you mean when Rain 3-1 Jjakji? Or HerO 3-0 Innovation?
Polt is the only one, and he BARELY edged every protoss he played. You, protoss player, need to get your reality cap on. Every protoss, except you apparently, knows the current mappool/balance is not fair and very toss favored.
This "that can be explained by Toss players (every single toss player? LOL) getting better and Terran (every single terran) not adapting. Reminds me so heavily of when zergs claimed brood infestor was fair and terran just wasn't adapting. Now all Zergs act like they always admitted it was imba. Shame. Shame on you
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We should count how many tournaments in a row protoss has won then, and how many more in a row they are going to win. Maybe after 20 MC will feel stupid?
Like seriously, in history there has never been many high level protoss having good success. Then hots come,. they buff warp prism/oracle harass... and suddently you have like 20-25 protoss doinginsane good.
Kinda reminds me of patch zerg eras O_O
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On February 17 2014 13:11 Snake.69 wrote:
We should count how many tournaments in a row protoss has won then, and how many more in a row they are going to win. Maybe after 20 MC will feel stupid?
Like seriously, in history there has never been many high level protoss having good success. Then hots come,. they buff warp prism/oracle harass... and suddently you have like 20-25 protoss doinginsane good.
Kinda reminds me of patch zerg eras O_O
This is definately an era of patch protoss.
User was warned for this post
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On February 17 2014 08:45 Parcelleus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 08:31 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 06:27 Parcelleus wrote:On February 17 2014 02:06 Xiphos wrote:On February 17 2014 02:00 reikai wrote:
For the love of starcraft and balance, please do not just whine balance every time a loss or tournament result occurs. MC is right, and some things are not balance related, but map related.
After WoL, Terran had every barracks, factory, and some starport units nerfed because "Terran OP" on the forums. Please think before you post.
Blizzard WILL listen to you, because they want the most people playing their games. Please don't just ruin the game for others by whining balance every time. The only reason why GomTvT and Zerg Bl/Infestor era are over is because of balance whine. And clearly result have shown that the balance is heavily favored toward Protoss. Incorrect, David Kim has made it clear that he looks at the data. He and the team have said many times they rather wait and see for the meta to develop before changing things. The data for the TvT OP era was overwhelming, so eventually they made changes. IF the same thing happens for Toss (the data is no-where near the TvT OP era, and no where near as long) , Im sure the balance team will do something. However, the data is showing the game is very balanced at the top level. Im glad the balance team take this sensible approach. And as someone mentioned earlier, when Terran got used to being OP, ofc there will be a some tears as their race is brought into check and they are expected to grow as players and not expect the game itself to make it ez for them like in the past. Yeah its not like Protoss have been winning 7/11 premier tournaments (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments) for 1/2 year. Its not like Protoss players makes up for 50% in the GSL mean anything right (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S)? Get your critical thinking cap on. That can be explained by Toss players getting better and Terran not adapting. As I said before, there needs to be time for the meta to develop before crying for immediate changes. And as MC mentioned, maps playing a big role. ie. IEM cologne Terran doing just fine beating Toss. Get your reality cap on.
lol, just like how they let the hellbat meta develop before nerfing it, right?
And yes, maps play a big role. So was the case in the 1-1-1 era, if maps were bigger, 1-1-1 is not nearly as strong. But when 70%+ of the map pool favors blink, then maybe nerfing blink is a easier fix.
As for IEM Cologne Terrans doing fine. It is like saying protoss has been the most OP race throughout WoL and HoTS because MC is the #1 money earner...
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MC was winning when his race was statistically the worst in the game. And that was for a long time too. I think he's word carries a lot more weight than terran emotions.
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On February 17 2014 13:42 KingAce wrote:
MC was winning when his race was statistically the worst in the game. And that was for a long time too. I think he's word carries a lot more weight than terran emotions.
how does that correlate at all? he won when his race sucked, now his opinions matter more?
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On February 17 2014 13:42 KingAce wrote:
MC was winning when his race was statistically the worst in the game. And that was for a long time too. I think he's word carries a lot more weight than terran emotions.
This makes no sense. MC is admitting there is imbalance, in his word 70-30 on 5 or more maps. Which, btw, is a vast majority of the map pool. Re-read MC's post please. Ty.
Therefore, terran "emotions" or frustrations, are warranted and understandable.
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On February 17 2014 14:16 AnonymousSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 13:42 KingAce wrote:
MC was winning when his race was statistically the worst in the game. And that was for a long time too. I think he's word carries a lot more weight than terran emotions. This makes no sense. MC is admitting there is imbalance, in his word 70-30 on 5 or more maps. Which, btw, is a vast majority of the map pool. Re-read MC's post please. Ty. Therefore, terran "emotions" or frustrations, are warranted and understandable.
People are saying forget all that, he's biased. And I am like this dude has been on top form without excuses. When he's race was struggling, he was still finding ways to win tournaments. I think it's disrespectful to simply dismiss all of that because of emotions.
Personally I know the game is unbalanced. As long as core issues are ignored the game will always have problems. But it feels good to know that terrans are now feeling what we've felt for so long. The burning sensation in your stomach, been there done that.
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On February 15 2014 21:52 TheDwf wrote:
I'm posting this because I see too many people saying Zerg is imba.
ZvP = 50/50. Really 50/50. Don't blame maps or whatever…
The worse player loses. Protoss that whine really don't have any shame.
ZvT = I'll tell you why ZvT is so imbalanced. In terms of game balance, there's no problem, right?
But in ladder maps Zerg is 65/35 vs Terran. It's really depressing for Terran.
Why? It's because we have 4 maps where Brood lords are very strong. Daybreak, Akilon Wastes, Entombed Valley, Antiga.
After that we have Cloud Kingdom which is one of the most favourable map for Zerg vs Terran.
If you look at Whirlwind, it's 50/50. Terran have an ok time on this map.
This is not about game balance, the maps for ZvT is just too good for Zerg.
Before, Hellions and Ghost Snipes that swayed the game in ZvT both got nerfed.
Now games where zergs easily masses up the composition without deterrence is here.
I really didn't want to talk about balance whine because I'm a pro player, but
People are saying that zerg players don't even try hard and win due to the race
As a veteran, I feel bad for players that get all the hate and feel angry about it.
Sniper and RorO didn't win GSL after they were fooling around for a week.
They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying they were "patch zergs".
In my eyes, the two Zergs played well and that's why they went through. As programers they really learnt how to build infests and cast fungals well.
Also I see a lot of talk about nerfing Fungal but if we nerf that Zerg gets fucked.
DK-nim also knows this and this is why he isn't nerfing it. Infested Terran was a good ability for 25 energy and I'm glad it got nerfed.
With no balancing, just a change of maps will bring 50/50 in ZvT.
I think it was maps why Zergs won last GSLs.
Think about it, last season had the same balancing, but before the map changes was terran really that bad against Zerg?
EDIT: "This" brings me back. There is a strong correlation between earlier "patch zergs" and today's "power of protoss". great post, I just wanted others to see it.
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On February 17 2014 14:41 KingAce wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 14:16 AnonymousSC2 wrote:On February 17 2014 13:42 KingAce wrote:
MC was winning when his race was statistically the worst in the game. And that was for a long time too. I think he's word carries a lot more weight than terran emotions. This makes no sense. MC is admitting there is imbalance, in his word 70-30 on 5 or more maps. Which, btw, is a vast majority of the map pool. Re-read MC's post please. Ty. Therefore, terran "emotions" or frustrations, are warranted and understandable. Personally I know the game is unbalanced. As long as core issues are ignored the game will always have problems. But it feels good to know that terrans are now feeling what we've felt for so long. The burning sensation in your stomach, been there done that.
Horrible way of looking at the game and extremely bias. Terrible mentality...retribution is horrendous idea when it comes to balancing. Next time another race is imbalanced after this why not everyone just say this: "But it feels good to know that Xrace are now feeling what we've felt for so long. The burning sensation in your stomach, been there done that."
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On February 17 2014 15:53 Thrillz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 14:41 KingAce wrote:On February 17 2014 14:16 AnonymousSC2 wrote:On February 17 2014 13:42 KingAce wrote:
MC was winning when his race was statistically the worst in the game. And that was for a long time too. I think he's word carries a lot more weight than terran emotions. This makes no sense. MC is admitting there is imbalance, in his word 70-30 on 5 or more maps. Which, btw, is a vast majority of the map pool. Re-read MC's post please. Ty. Therefore, terran "emotions" or frustrations, are warranted and understandable. Personally I know the game is unbalanced. As long as core issues are ignored the game will always have problems. But it feels good to know that terrans are now feeling what we've felt for so long. The burning sensation in your stomach, been there done that. Horrible way of looking at the game and extremely bias. Terrible mentality...retribution is horrendous idea when it comes to balancing. Next time another race is imbalanced after this why not everyone just say this: "But it feels good to know that Xrace are now feeling what we've felt for so long. The burning sensation in your stomach, been there done that."
Correct! Protoss players dont deserve their spot in the sun because they are the scum of the earth, and I cant get cheap wins against them anymore. Oh, ooops, I forgot that we are claiming the moral highground when our race is losing out... I mean to say: "retribution is horrendous idea when it comes to balancing". Therefore, protoss should be nerfed hard, in order to restore balance and promote good sportsmanship.  wink*
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Yeah I agree the game is really racially balanced so much so I find it disgusting, myself. Maybe Blizzard will read that post and introduce new maps already. If they dumped even a few of those maps maybe they'd fix TvP now besides waiting for season 1 to conclude before doing that?
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Russian Federation823 Posts
On February 15 2014 21:25 Grixx wrote:Source: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=4823530&search=3&search_pos=&q=Zest and Trap didn't go to ro16 after they were fooling around for a week. 누구보다 노력 많이했을수도있는데 무슨 종빨이니 어쩌니로 선수는 폄하 안하셨음 좋겠습니다 They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying that it's "the power of protoss". 제가 볼때 오늘 두 토스는 정말 Well play 잘해서 올라간거고 프로게이머로써 빌드 전략 운영 다 잘 배웠습니다 In my eyes, the two Tosses played well and that's why they went through. As progamers they really learnt builds and strategies well.
Yes, stupid Terrans and Zergs, why don't YOU just really learn builds and strategies? Why are you fooling around and being lazy? If you would just work as hard as your fellow Protosses, maybe you could win some tournaments too?
Think about it!
EDIT: I guess in the 1-1-1 era of WoL all Protosses were also lazy as fuck and didn't practice PvT...
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On February 17 2014 17:53 kusto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 21:25 Grixx wrote:Source: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=4823530&search=3&search_pos=&q=Zest and Trap didn't go to ro16 after they were fooling around for a week. 누구보다 노력 많이했을수도있는데 무슨 종빨이니 어쩌니로 선수는 폄하 안하셨음 좋겠습니다 They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying that it's "the power of protoss". 제가 볼때 오늘 두 토스는 정말 Well play 잘해서 올라간거고 프로게이머로써 빌드 전략 운영 다 잘 배웠습니다 In my eyes, the two Tosses played well and that's why they went through. As progamers they really learnt builds and strategies well. Yes, stupid Terrans and Zergs, why don't YOU just really learn builds and strategies? Why are you fooling around and being lazy? If you would just work as hard as your fellow Protosses, maybe you could win some tournaments too? Think about it! EDIT: I guess in the 1-1-1 era of WoL all Protosses were also lazy as fuck and didn't practice PvT...
Well that's true in a way isn't it? 1-1-1 got fixed once toss learned to deal with it without major nerfs(?) afaik. All it took was an open mind and practice practice practice. That's my recollection of it anyway, might be wrong. Or was there a toss buff that helped significantly? The immo range buff?
Anyway, couldn't really say how right MC is. Toss seems to be doing really well but it's not like I've played any TvP (or any matchup) lately, so I don't know how much it sucks to be a T right now. I understand that frustration needs to be vented.
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What really bother me with protoss atm is not their late game vs late game that is obviously very strong and hard to defeat but their recent ability since oracle patch and new map pool to dictate the game from the begining to the end.
When a protoss can safely go for aggression with blink stalker and then have storm ready at the 10 mn mark and defend 12 supply vs 38 like it's super easy, there is an issue imo. The mid game advantage has been completely shut down for terran. Letting protoss to EXPAND + HARASS + HEAVY TECH at the same time feels not right they have to take risk at some point somewhere.
You only see terran take an edge with the game when it's doom drop time it's the only threat terran can apply atm (but it's goddamn efficient don't get me wrong)
What I truly want is that protoss can have hard choice to make at the begining and mid game stage of the game :
You are going for Blink stalkers/DT/proxy oracle ? You better do dmg or you will fall behind. That is the kind of statement that I want to be true again.
Protoss have to take risk again vs terran no matter what is the form it will take, I don't care but balance team have to make something that threathens again protoss.
PO doing + dmg vs shield and nerf the overall dmg could be a good idea to start.
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EPT
