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On February 15 2014 22:45 ZenithM wrote:
I'm not convinced that the only issues lie in maps, tbh. Protoss seems really sooo heavily favored that it can't be just that...
Any thing they do seems utterly devastating for Terran, it can't be just the threat of one powerful build like Blink stalkers.
Edit: I agree that it's a good thing to try the fix the most problematic shit first, and that's probably blink stalkers right now, but "map balancing" doesn't solve everything. Sometimes, units are too strong, like the MSC.
PvT lategame is very micro intensive from the Terran side, you have to Stim-kite the protoss army and have good EMP control versus chargelots, and a Terran has to spread a Protoss thin with attacking on multiple places. You can't let a Protoss get that ultimate deathball because the race is designed to be extremely strong in lategame.
Blink is an issue in the early game, but you have to agree that the balance starting swinging in Protoss'es favor with the new mappool.
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On February 15 2014 22:50 Nebuchad wrote:
Kind of symptomatic that MC writes about annoying whiny attitude and all the answers focus on actual balance. MC should have seen that coming and not mentioned that part about maps, though, so I do blame it partially on him.
Well, he is saying it's imbalanced though. It's not like he's only saying the complains are illegitimate and whiny.
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On February 15 2014 22:50 Nebuchad wrote:
Kind of symptomatic that MC writes about annoying whiny attitude and all the answers focus on actual balance. MC should have seen that coming and not mentioned that part about maps, though, so I do blame it partially on him.
Lecturing people while playing the dominant race is also not a very smart move.
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On February 15 2014 22:53 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 22:50 Nebuchad wrote:
Kind of symptomatic that MC writes about annoying whiny attitude and all the answers focus on actual balance. MC should have seen that coming and not mentioned that part about maps, though, so I do blame it partially on him. Lecturing people while playing the dominant race is also not a very smart move.
MC plays terran in real life, so it's fair criticism.
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On February 15 2014 22:48 Pangpootata wrote:
I have to say MC is at least partially right about PvT imbalance being due to maps. If one looks at Proleague, the top 3 players are Terrans and it is because The King Sejong Station is decent for terrans and Outboxer is actually slightly advantageous. GSL should stop blindly adopting Blizzard maps such as Daedalus Point and be more like KeSPA.
I don't think GSL has a choice. They are WCS KR.
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On February 15 2014 22:56 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 22:48 Pangpootata wrote:
I have to say MC is at least partially right about PvT imbalance being due to maps. If one looks at Proleague, the top 3 players are Terrans and it is because The King Sejong Station is decent for terrans and Outboxer is actually slightly advantageous. GSL should stop blindly adopting Blizzard maps such as Daedalus Point and be more like KeSPA. I don't think GSL has a choice. They are WCS KR.
Oh that's right. I had assumed they have more autonomy now because their brand is back to GSL and no longer WCS. Dirty Blizzard cash at work.
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On February 15 2014 22:53 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 22:50 Nebuchad wrote:
Kind of symptomatic that MC writes about annoying whiny attitude and all the answers focus on actual balance. MC should have seen that coming and not mentioned that part about maps, though, so I do blame it partially on him. Well, he is saying it's imbalanced though. It's not like he's only saying the complains are illegitimate and whiny.
Yup, it is complaining about PvZ whiners and people that player bash. He does say PvT has issues and Terrans should be sad.
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On February 15 2014 22:58 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 22:56 vthree wrote:On February 15 2014 22:48 Pangpootata wrote:
I have to say MC is at least partially right about PvT imbalance being due to maps. If one looks at Proleague, the top 3 players are Terrans and it is because The King Sejong Station is decent for terrans and Outboxer is actually slightly advantageous. GSL should stop blindly adopting Blizzard maps such as Daedalus Point and be more like KeSPA. I don't think GSL has a choice. They are WCS KR. Oh that's right. I had assumed they have more autonomy now because their brand is back to GSL and no longer WCS. Dirty Blizzard cash at work.
And like last year with global finals, it would suck to be Korean in GSL if they played on different map pools. Same with Blizzcon this year.
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MC = BossToss = LogicToss? I like that. He's definitely making some really good points. Nowadays, any time any Protoss player wins it's "due to Protoss" rather than "due to skill". Sigh.
On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote:
You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
Absolutely agree.
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On February 15 2014 22:53 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 22:50 Nebuchad wrote:
Kind of symptomatic that MC writes about annoying whiny attitude and all the answers focus on actual balance. MC should have seen that coming and not mentioned that part about maps, though, so I do blame it partially on him. Well, he is saying it's imbalanced though. It's not like he's only saying the complains are illegitimate and whiny.
Yeah that's what I mean, and I'm just saying his point is stronger if he doesn't put in the whole "also the maps play a factor", because from an audience standpoint, it doesn't really matter where the imbalance comes from.
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On February 15 2014 23:05 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 22:53 ZenithM wrote:On February 15 2014 22:50 Nebuchad wrote:
Kind of symptomatic that MC writes about annoying whiny attitude and all the answers focus on actual balance. MC should have seen that coming and not mentioned that part about maps, though, so I do blame it partially on him. Well, he is saying it's imbalanced though. It's not like he's only saying the complains are illegitimate and whiny. Yeah that's what I mean, and I'm just saying his point is stronger if he doesn't put in the whole "also the maps play a factor", because from an audience standpoint, it doesn't really matter where the imbalance comes from.
i dont think so, getting every win downplayed is just part of being the dominant race, was the same for terrans when code s had 20 of them or zerg when they won 6 gsls in a row
its frustrating for protoss players atm but hopefully it will get better soon
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MC is right.
The new maps are horrible for Terran. Delete those maps. Bring back good maps like Daybreak, Ohana, Akilon Wastes, Whirlwind, Entombed Valley, and Neo Planet S. That's how you balance the game immediately without waiting months and months for test maps.
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MC is wrong, it's not just the map and PvZ is not 50/50. Not too surprising that he would be biased.
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On February 15 2014 23:28 Dwayn wrote:
MC is wrong, it's not just the map and PvZ is not 50/50. Not too surprising that he would be biased.
PvZ is kind of ~50% everywhere. Proleague, Code A (if you eliminate all the old Deadalus games, else it's a little Zergfavored), Code S, aligulac, ladder.
Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS.
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Protoss complains more about PvZ than Zerg does though  , see SH whine, which is basically zerg's only option at a late game.
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On February 15 2014 23:14 Salient wrote:
MC is right.
The new maps are horrible for Terran. Delete those maps. Bring back good maps like Daybreak, Ohana, Akilon Wastes, Whirlwind, Entombed Valley, and Neo Planet S. That's how you balance the game immediately without waiting months and months for test maps.
I hope you're being sarcastic, don't get me wrong. I do think current map pool is pretty crappy and favors Protoss over Terran in PvT. But going that far back for using maps is arguably helpful to the meta game. If anything we should be getting new and different maps that would even out the matchup more rather than going by an old standby. Though I do miss Whirlwind and Akilon, I know it's hypocritical of me, but I wouldn't mind seeing those maps come back even for a short while.
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On February 15 2014 23:32 Big J wrote:
Unless I'm missing something huge, I don't see any reason to believe that PvZ is imbalanced, or has been imbalanced in the last few months or even anytime during HotS.
I would just like to quote ToD doing some analysis during IEM:
"There is no MSC with this army, this is not supposed to happen"
lol seriously, do you really think it is normal to go sniping hatches without any risk xD?
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On February 15 2014 22:25 Nebuchad wrote:
You can agree or disagree with the map assessment, but the way community treats players is fucking awful, and I don't see how you can deny that.
Oh woe is me, the Protoss.
What a loss it is I feel,
When I think DK will steal -
My wins earned like a boss.
Note: Protoss players in TL, get over yourself. You are not MC, balance at your level isn't what most reasonable people are complaining about. You want to act like all balance criticism is an attack because of a few assholes? Well, aren't you so wonderful...
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EPT
