EPTAlso i agree that maps are a huge problem. Having said that isn't one of the big problems with SC2 right now how hard it is to make different maps. You change even the smallest things and you end up breaking the game (mainly in the protoss matchups). Whilst i don't think that makes protoss imbalanced it says to me that big changes are needed to address this problem.
MC's thoughts on current balance whining - Page 6
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ElBlanco
Australia140 Posts
Also i agree that maps are a huge problem. Having said that isn't one of the big problems with SC2 right now how hard it is to make different maps. You change even the smallest things and you end up breaking the game (mainly in the protoss matchups). Whilst i don't think that makes protoss imbalanced it says to me that big changes are needed to address this problem. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On February 16 2014 01:12 sitromit wrote: He just won his 1st tournament in years, what did you expect? He's had tons of high placing finishes (including a lot of 2nds) in the past year, he's definitely one of the premier players in the EU scene. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MC/Results That being said, I really feel like there's more problems with TvP than just blink all-ins. Sure, the build is strong, but really the problem is that Protoss doesn't need to know what Terran is doing because photon overcharge + some form of detection means they're more or less safe until the 8-9 minute mark while Terran has to react to a huge variety of Protoss builds and all of them require different responses. It's almost impossible to tell what's happening with 100% certainty even with reaper + scans because of the denial of information with Stalker, MsC and the potential of the tech being proxied. And even if you scout the tech, just the threat of it is a big enough deal that Terran has to react, and all Protoss needs to do is not commit to the tech and the players are even once more. In games where Terran does have 100% information, they end up even or possibly even slightly ahead IMO, it's just so unlikely for this to happen currently. Blink all-ins are just one build that adds to the problem, albiet probably the scariest option at the moment. And if we limit map design to make blink all-ins weaker, we also inherently make them worse for reapers too, making it harder for Terran to scout the plethora of options that would still be available to Protoss. | ||
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mikumegurine
Canada3145 Posts
how much more balanced was it before these map changes? | ||
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Kaizen[7]
United States86 Posts
Yes, I am a shameless fanboy | ||
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mangofrancesco
46 Posts
Unfortunately, his points still won't be able to stop the balance whiners from being whiny little bitches. | ||
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
On February 15 2014 21:52 TheDwf wrote: I'm posting this because I see too many people saying Zerg is imba. ZvP = 50/50. Really 50/50. Don't blame maps or whatever… The worse player loses. Protoss that whine really don't have any shame. ZvT = I'll tell you why ZvT is so imbalanced. In terms of game balance, there's no problem, right? But in ladder maps Zerg is 65/35 vs Terran. It's really depressing for Terran. Why? It's because we have 4 maps where Brood lords are very strong. Daybreak, Akilon Wastes, Entombed Valley, Antiga. After that we have Cloud Kingdom which is one of the most favourable map for Zerg vs Terran. If you look at Whirlwind, it's 50/50. Terran have an ok time on this map. This is not about game balance, the maps for ZvT is just too good for Zerg. Before, Hellions and Ghost Snipes that swayed the game in ZvT both got nerfed. Now games where zergs easily masses up the composition without deterrence is here. I really didn't want to talk about balance whine because I'm a pro player, but People are saying that zerg players don't even try hard and win due to the race As a veteran, I feel bad for players that get all the hate and feel angry about it. Sniper and RorO didn't win GSL after they were fooling around for a week. They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying they were "patch zergs". In my eyes, the two Zergs played well and that's why they went through. As programers they really learnt how to build infests and cast fungals well. Also I see a lot of talk about nerfing Fungal but if we nerf that Zerg gets fucked. DK-nim also knows this and this is why he isn't nerfing it. Infested Terran was a good ability for 25 energy and I'm glad it got nerfed. With no balancing, just a change of maps will bring 50/50 in ZvT. I think it was maps why Zergs won last GSLs. Think about it, last season had the same balancing, but before the map changes was terran really that bad against Zerg? This is pretty amazing. Love MC, but I'm going to disagree with the maps. The 3 players that I've heard say that the reason for theses recent results were due to maps were Desrow, Artosis - according to Desrow, and MC. Wow they all play protoss, didn't see that coming. If we nerf MScore vision or just the strength of blink stalkers vs Terran early game we achieve more variability than just changing the map-pool. 1) we will still be able to keep all these different maps instead of restricting map design to just maps with small surfaces for blink. We are already restricted in maps because Protoss needs to be able to wall off the natural ramp vs zerg to stay competitive. 2) we will still see blink stalker openings every now and then. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we almost never see blink stalker openings on these "balanced" maps such as frost. | ||
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vNmMasterT
68 Posts
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
And there is nothing like "matchup is balanced, just maps are wrong". But you could say "the matchup is imbalanced, and the best way how to deal with it is to change maps". You can't talk about "balance" without keeping in mind some set of maps that you play on. | ||
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Gasi
38 Posts
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architecture
United States643 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On February 15 2014 22:43 Big J wrote: The game is being played on maps, you cannot segregate balance from maps. If the problem is restricted to only one or two maps we can very well change the mappool and consider the matchup fine. However, if the problem is appears on half the mappool because very standard features are suddenly considered broken the problem is the matchup, not the maps. MC talks about 5maps from the current pool that favor Protoss due to two different problems Daedalus, Heavy Rain, Yeonsu, Polar Night - blink play Alterzim - too big. Now Alterzim is probably a problem map, its size is experimentally big, its not a standard feature and if it proves to be imbalanced it is easy to avoid making such maps, just like we have done in the years past with like 1exception. But what about the other 4? They have standard features that are suddenly considered imbalanced - after changes to the units, not to the maps! If our new standard should be to avoid maps with those standard features, then there also cannot be another Cloud Kingdom, Bel'Shire Beach, Antiga Shipyard, Shakuras Plateau, Derelicted Watcher (...), because those maps have the same with the "new balance" problematic feature (a blinkabuseable ledge). Hell, Akilon and Ohana are problematic for blink rushes with this standard... TLDR: If 50% of all maps that have ever been played are considered broken because of balance changes, then we should not consider the maps problematic but the balance changes. That looks circular reasoning to me, Big J. If the problem is the map, then it does not matter how many maps there are. The problem remains the map, not the match-up. In which case, one way to approach the problem is not to remove all of those maps but to diminish the number of maps which have those abusable features most strongly in a season (or tweak them in some way). These would be Yeonsu and Heavy Rain. Taken in conjunction with map veto then you have less TvP coming down blink all-ins on those maps. This should flow into balance statistics and more importantly, ladder will be less irritating for Terran. But, we have had these kinds of map since WOL. I'd hate to lose out on greater map diversity. The MSC provides a vision advantage that was not there in WOL and has TW (preventing re-positioning of Terran units). So, before maps are tossed (haha!) out wholesale, I'd prefer to wait until the effect of the MSC vision nerf is known (and ideally also, TW to an upgrade at Core). | ||
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VieuxSinge
France231 Posts
Protoss started to win because they finally learnt how to use the tools they were given at the very beginning of HotS. They learnt to use the MScore to be extra greedy or to do super all-ins and they learnt how to open with oracles and be safe. Of all this, the blink all-in can be dealt with though maps, I agree. The ultra greediness must be dealt with through balances patches (buff widow mines against workers to force protoss to be less greedy, nerf MScore vision to force protoss to be less greedy) | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
We can't just systematically eliminate potential map variety to accommodate poorly designed gameplay. We did that in WoL to keep protoss from being either broken or complete shit, and now we cannot play around with naturals and thirds at all. Sacrificing yet more map design possibilities in order to avoid having to nerf some aspects of a race is a really bad idea. | ||
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
Nothing related to map design or blink cooldown or MSC vision will let Terran do damage against Photon Overcharge. | ||
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
On February 16 2014 04:11 Cheren wrote: MC is wrong. Frost has a 56% winrate for Protoss vs Terran, Habitation Station has a 51% winrate (but small sample size), and Daybreak, which has a huge chasm to prevent blinking into the main from anywhere but the natural, had a 53% winrate for PvT. Nothing related to map design or blink cooldown or MSC vision will let Terran do damage against Photon Overcharge. with a small sample size like you said that IS an even winrate | ||
Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
It feels like too much of a constraint, but I'm not suggesting the blink nerf happen. MSC vision is probably a good place to start. Protoss has other free scouts via sentries anyway. Sure, it can affect early game PvP, but the unit is too much a crutch, imo. 9 vision might be kind of severe, but I always felt overlord speed and queen range were too much, and Blizzard never shaved those down. Overall, I'll take it, being sympathetic to terran, and usually terran myself. P.S. It's pretty stupid there's no overlord snipe game for early marines. That was better than watching them shoot the destructible debris at the bottom of their ramp. But then, Blizzard completely ignored a very strong argument how they were nerfing ghost snipe wrong. | ||
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Nibbler89
884 Posts
On February 16 2014 03:50 Plansix wrote: MC said it, don't be a balance whiner. There may be some truth to a little imbalance, whining about it won't make you better. Does anyone else find it kinda annoying how when protoss is fairly strong the same people who would constantly bash terran during 1-1-1 era or cry in the sad zealot fan club about how hard their race is and how underpowered they are for so long, now act as if they are the lone voices of reason and everyone else that doesn't think everything is fine is a whiner. While at the same time acting like they are so "above" anyone who complains about the game. It's funny actually because MC is one of these people, he's probably said " terran imba" over 200 times in his life and now he acts about how its insulting to players and taking away from their hard work.I believe he also said if he played terran he'd have won numerous more GSL championships. The hypocrisy is disgusting. Just accept that everyone complains about the game when they feel like it's imba, only one race has a 67 page fan club devoted to crying though. On February 02 2012 21:14 Plansix wrote: Oh man, so sad zealots again. I thought this era was over. We will have to see how things shake out, but right now pvz is sort of a bummer. On January 25 2014 10:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: The Mad Marine Fan Club just opened up for the Terrans haha. They only have a few pages though... the sad zealots have been around much, much longer T.T Yeah protoss have been crying the hardest and the longest since WoL, and when their race is strong they start crying about crying ~_~. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
First the high ground advantage in SC2 compared to BW. In BW if you were on the high ground you had an advantage. In SC2 that, of course, isn't true. If you have vision you're fighting on even keel. So ramps and ledges mean far less in SC2 compared to BW. Second is there is far more air play in SC2 compared to BW. In BW the only real GTA threat was mutalisk. That is completely false in SC2. You may be able to make an argument Shuttle/Reaver was something similar to air play. [Edit: I meant as openers. I know Carriers and to a lesser extent BC existed in BW.] Third is that Protoss makes their own maps. With force field and warp-in mechanic maps and terrain mean far less to Protoss. It is difficult to make an "anti-Protoss" map without it just being open and barren almost similar to Dadelus. If what MC is saying is true he is basically admitting that Blink all-in is completely broken TvP. I doubt many people would argue that. So should we put yet another constraint on map design simply because Protoss has a build that is completely imbalanced on race's favor? I don't think the idea of "fixing it thru maps" is quite as easy in SC2 as it was in BW. | ||
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