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DaRKMaTT3r
Brazil553 Posts
Also i love MC but he is biased as hell, when terran and zerg had their overpowered momment MC was always crying on twitter, now the situation is reverse its all good just a few maps, like protoss hasnt been dominating PvT earlier than heavy rain and the other new maps were introduced. OP or not all those tournament with only PvP on Ro4 are boring to most of people and the viewer count is showing that. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On February 16 2014 05:05 DaRKMaTT3r wrote: If those "imba maps" were to be removed we would go back to the mid-end WoL where every map almost had same layout, similar 3rd. Also i love MC but he is biased as hell, when terran and zerg had their overpowered momment MC was always crying on twitter, now the situation is reverse its all good just a few maps, like protoss hasnt been dominating PvT earlier than heavy rain and the other new maps were introduced. OP or not all those tournament with only PvP on Ro4 are boring to most of people and the viewer count is showing that. You mean viewer counts like the tripled Proleague viewer count? | ||
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RyF
Austria508 Posts
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DaRKMaTT3r
Brazil553 Posts
On February 16 2014 05:13 Zealously wrote: You mean viewer counts like the tripled Proleague viewer count? You are compairing first Proleague where at the start the level of play was below GSL level, with a good proleague, as well its a team league where its not so player focused. Even so when flash and maru plays the view count is really high. Im obviously talking about every non-WCS tournament, where usually it used to be a low view count at the start but when it gets to Ro8 and further the view count usually doubled and tripled. Watch the numbers of every PvP finals, most of them it was somehow similar to the start, when they didnt shrink. | ||
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Djagulingu
Germany3605 Posts
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ConCentrate405
Brazil71 Posts
Bad maps just make a potentialy bad game worse, that's two things to fix and we can't expect to fix both by adressing just one. And that's only for balance, not even talking about entretainement for viewers that won't watch the same game forever, even if balanced. | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On February 16 2014 05:28 DaRKMaTT3r wrote: You are compairing first Proleague where at the start the level of play was below GSL level, with a good proleague, as well its a team league where its not so player focused. Even so when flash and maru plays the view count is really high. Im obviously talking about every non-WCS tournament, where usually it used to be a low view count at the start but when it gets to Ro8 and further the view count usually doubled and tripled. Watch the numbers of every PvP finals, most of them it was somehow similar to the start, when they didnt shrink. I don't see your point regarding Proleague. It was easily on the same level as WCS Korea last season, so the argument that the players were worse doesn't work here. Further, we're talking tripled viewership in a league that is extremely Protoss-heavy. By your logic, shouldn't the tournaments with the highest concentration of Protoss be the least watched tournaments? | ||
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Lokian
United States699 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
* player skill * maps * tournament format * the metagame * the game So obviously whenever there is a perceived balance concern you can deflect the conversation away from proposals to change anything that personally benefits you, by focusing on a different factor. MC likes protoss to win, so he'll propose changing the map pool knowing this will only allow a small number of controlled changes that most likely will still leave protoss the superior race. | ||
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illidanx
United States973 Posts
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igay
Australia1178 Posts
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DaRKMaTT3r
Brazil553 Posts
On February 16 2014 05:45 Zealously wrote: I don't see your point regarding Proleague. It was easily on the same level as WCS Korea last season, so the argument that the players were worse doesn't work here. Further, we're talking tripled viewership in a league that is extremely Protoss-heavy. By your logic, shouldn't the tournaments with the highest concentration of Protoss be the least watched tournaments? You think big number of PvP matches were the cause of the increase of SPL's viewer count? There is a lot of reason for that, including better production, also AFAIK what tripled was only the korean numbers, not overall. And as i mentioned before, proleague doesnt focus on the player but on the team. I personally never cheer for the zerg players, but on proleague if the team i'm cheering for has a Zerg playere playing i cheer for him. PvP is the second least favourite matchup, there was even a poll here in teamliquid back then, maybe you enjoy PvP, but that doesn't mean the majority does. You can easily see what i am talking about right now. When i made my last comment it was streaming Mc vs Inno which had 51Kish viewers, before that Inno vs HMarine with 45K+. Classic and MC are pretty much as good as innovation but somehow the views dropped down to 35,5K. PvP is just not as enjoyable for the majority thats a fact and i don't see how SPL "korean" numbers increasing would change that. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 16 2014 04:40 Nibbler89 wrote: Does anyone else find it kinda annoying how when protoss is fairly strong the same people who would constantly bash terran during 1-1-1 era or cry in the sad zealot fan club about how hard their race is and how underpowered they are for so long, now act as if they are the lone voices of reason and everyone else that doesn't think everything is fine is a whiner. While at the same time acting like they are so "above" anyone who complains about the game. It's funny actually because MC is one of these people, he's probably said " terran imba" over 200 times in his life and now he acts about how its insulting to players and taking away from their hard work.I believe he also said if he played terran he'd have won numerous more GSL championships. The hypocrisy is disgusting. Just accept that everyone complains about the game when they feel like it's imba, only one race has a 67 page fan club devoted to crying though. Yeah protoss have been crying the hardest and the longest since WoL, and when their race is strong they start crying about crying ~_~. Except that I have said that terran needed a buff for months now. I don't make fun of terrans in general, just the ones the whine endlessly. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On February 16 2014 04:40 Nibbler89 wrote: Does anyone else find it kinda annoying how when protoss is fairly strong the same people who would constantly bash terran during 1-1-1 era or cry in the sad zealot fan club about how hard their race is and how underpowered they are for so long, now act as if they are the lone voices of reason and everyone else that doesn't think everything is fine is a whiner. While at the same time acting like they are so "above" anyone who complains about the game. It's funny actually because MC is one of these people, he's probably said " terran imba" over 200 times in his life and now he acts about how its insulting to players and taking away from their hard work.I believe he also said if he played terran he'd have won numerous more GSL championships. The hypocrisy is disgusting. Just accept that everyone complains about the game when they feel like it's imba, only one race has a 67 page fan club devoted to crying though. Yeah protoss have been crying the hardest and the longest since WoL, and when their race is strong they start crying about crying ~_~. To be fair, I think MC may have been motivated (if I am correct with the dates) with the "fuck Protoss" calls from the crowd at yesterday's IEM. This was during the Dear v Jjakji series. It may have been that the guy was drunk but that was uncalled for and insulting to Dear as he played out his set. MC was at hand during that set, so I wonder if this article is a response to that. Secondly, dude, the Sad Zealot club was more ironic than anything. Sure there was also whining there which was checked when it could be (Plexa came in once or twice and said, "This is a sad zealot fanclub, not a balance whine thread"). But there were also quite a few lols and an attempt to find levity and humour during what were dark times for the P race.  | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him. | ||
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Rowrin
United States280 Posts
Seriously, if we balance the maps around protoss, for one: Every. Single. Map. would be the same. They'd all have the exact same features to "balance" out protoss. HELL, why even have a variety of maps. We could just make one map and "balance" it. There we go, welcome to league of starcraft, same map every fucking time, then no one can complain about "map balance". Instead of nerfing what is broken you want it so that on "certain" maps it cant be used or isn't viable at all. That is stupid. Second, we'd just see stupid stuff like scrap station where one map is so obviously favored for one race that it just gets vetoed. | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
seems most players, both zerg and protoss, agree that there are good and bad things about the zvp matchup. there's a bigger variety of timings and styles than other matchups, which often makes it more exciting to watch, and i like the way the two races interact. however... as a player, the insane hardcounters and incredibly steep punishment for not having perfect play can be frustrating for both sides (i main zerg and regularly offrace protoss, pvz is easily my worst MU as P) -managing a zerg ground army isn't fun and it often isn't effective because of how many tools protoss has to shape the battlefield and create a favorable engagement no matter how hard zerg tries to dance around and bait spells. forcefield + timewarp + storm makes using roaches and hydralisks feel like playing flappy bird. this leaves zerg with the options of either hitting a really tight timing that usually has to win the game (roach/hydra/corruptor all in, roach/hydra/viper, ling hydra into muta, etc) or just turtling into swarm hosts, which almost everyone agrees is a sad and tired playstyle. because protoss is so strong defensively and a bit vulnerable offensively before the deathball gets up, there's far more incentive to go swarm hosts -being cannon rushed isn't fun. i don't care about the cliches people repeat that it's "a legit strategy," that "you do what it takes to win," etc. i'm not disputing that. but it's not fun to defend or to watch. -if you're not a very very very high level protoss player, dynamic and aggressive styles (gateway aggression, mass phoenix, etc.) provide much much less incentive in terms of results than standard void/colo/templar turtling, similar to the reasons zerg is encouraged to turtle. both races are to blame for the state of lategame pvz -because of the way zerg production is different from protoss production, game deciding moments can hinge on the tiniest margins of error, such as missing a forcefield at your natural wall. as a zerg player, it's annoying to know that many forms of aggression are simply only viable if protoss makes a mistake or isn't paying attention. lack of ability to make frontal assaults work is another thing contributing to the dominance of swarm host play. by the same token, as a protoss player it can be extremely disheartening to insta-lose because of a missed forcefield that lets zerglings into your base before you're really allowed to have any units with standard play. yes, i realize small margins of error raise the skill ceiling, but sc2 is a long game. i'm investing 5-30 minutes in each game, including many minutes of early game when everything i do is fucking identical every time if i'm playing standard. that's what makes people rage. didn't scout muta? missed a forcefield? didn't scout cannon rush? didn't find that pylon? didn't scout DT? you're dead, you just wasted 5+ minutes of your life as a zerg player i don't think zvp is imbalanced or bad. but i think it's deeply broken. do i have a magical fix? no. but that doesn't change the way it feels to play. in zvt, being behind is very bad but recoverable. in zvp it doesn't feel like there is any such grey area or any reason to be inventive or try new styles because both races are just so fucking good defensively if they're played correctly tl;dr: it's incredibly lazy to imply that anyone who has a problem with a matchup is a balance whiner, unwillingn to blame themselves for losses or unwilling to improve. there are issues with both pvz and pvt that make a lot of people have a bad time with the game, issues which have developed over time and made a lot of players, high and low level, change their thoughts and analysis of those matchups. it's actually kind of rude of MC to just wipe away an entire community dialogue by essentially saying "u mad, get good bro" | ||
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Joner
51 Posts
Also, it's just a fact that Protoss has the most the most cheesy builds that can straight up end in a build order win when the opponent reacts in the wrong way (Proxy Oracle/ DT), whereas Toss itself is pretty save against every push because of Photon Cannon, MSC and Forcefields. I'm not saying Toss is overpowered if both players play their races up to the limit, I just feel like if you put the same work into all three races, you will advance furthest playing Protoss. I don't think any zerg is complaining about win rates in pvz, what they dislike is the sheer amount of abusive strategies they have to put up with which are more than ever, and on top of that the only option zerg has is to aim for a 3hour swarmhost lategame which is fucking soul destroying. Going into what MC said; We have 7 reasonably different maps in the pool, of which 2 are even and 5 are 'imbalanced'. Shouldn't we still be looking at fixing TvP on these 'imba' maps, because Protoss limits map design so much in SC2? This is a question I want to put to discussion, not an opinion. Examples: FFE, defendable third, small main-blink in area, main not too open to air, maps not too large, compact naturals, etcetera. Found a couple of quotes in this thread that i think hits the nail on the head. This is why people are upset and this is why we shouldn't blame the maps for current issues with protoss. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
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Waise
3165 Posts
On February 16 2014 07:43 aZealot wrote: To be fair, I think MC may have been motivated (if I am correct with the dates) with the "fuck Protoss" calls from the crowd at yesterday's IEM. This was during the Dear v Jjakji series. It may have been that the guy was drunk but that was uncalled for and insulting to Dear as he played out his set. MC was at hand during that set, so I wonder if this article is a response to that. Secondly, dude, the Sad Zealot club was more ironic than anything. Sure there was also whining there which was checked when it could be (Plexa came in once or twice and said, "This is a sad zealot fanclub, not a balance whine thread"). But there were also quite a few lols and an attempt to find levity and humour during what were dark times for the P race. that guy in the audience was part of the community and the viewership for tournaments and he was entitled to express his opinion. it was vulgar, but there was nothing invalid about it. you can protest corruption in society by writing an essay or by marching and chanting on the street. obviously sc2 isn't as important or serious, but it's the same basic idea. he yelled out because there was a community of people behind the feeling he was expressing. if these issues weren't as bad as most people think they are, he would have simply been dismissed as a drunken idiot. but in reality he was just giving a voice to an idea that has been gaining steam for a long time now. you can't excuse MC's dumb comments by saying "oh, some guy yelled at a tournament and it was rude, so MC was frustrated." MC gets hella paid from SC2, the "fuck protoss" dude doesn't | ||
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