MC's thoughts on current balance whining - Page 9

On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote:
There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.

On February 16 2014 15:01 mikumegurine wrote:


only zerg viewers and zerg players then? since by their reasoning Viewers who play terran or protoss are inherently biased and thus have zero credibility regarding the PvT matchup

On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote:
MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game.
I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.

On February 16 2014 02:27 Pursuit_ wrote:


He's had tons of high placing finishes (including a lot of 2nds) in the past year, he's definitely one of the premier players in the EU scene.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MC/Results

That being said, I really feel like there's more problems with TvP than just blink all-ins. Sure, the build is strong, but really the problem is that Protoss doesn't need to know what Terran is doing because photon overcharge + some form of detection means they're more or less safe until the 8-9 minute mark while Terran has to react to a huge variety of Protoss builds and all of them require different responses. It's almost impossible to tell what's happening with 100% certainty even with reaper + scans because of the denial of information with Stalker, MsC and the potential of the tech being proxied. And even if you scout the tech, just the threat of it is a big enough deal that Terran has to react, and all Protoss needs to do is not commit to the tech and the players are even once more. In games where Terran does have 100% information, they end up even or possibly even slightly ahead IMO, it's just so unlikely for this to happen currently.

Blink all-ins are just one build that adds to the problem, albiet probably the scariest option at the moment. And if we limit map design to make blink all-ins weaker, we also inherently make them worse for reapers too, making it harder for Terran to scout the plethora of options that would still be available to Protoss.

On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote:
MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game.
I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.

On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote:
MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game.
I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.

On February 16 2014 15:25 KrazyTrumpet wrote:


Most hilarious thing I've read on these forums. 10/10 excellent joke.

Anyway, the Protoss hate is getting really stupid. It's way way way worse than when people were whining about GOMTvT or Broodlord/Infestor. It's devolved into personal attacks and extreme vitriol that is worse than almost anything seen in SC2 history. It's really disappointing, and I think you might see more prominent players speak up about it.

I also gotta say I'm really tired when even commentators/tournament hosts are getting on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon. It just adds fuel to the fire =/

On February 16 2014 15:25 KrazyTrumpet wrote:


Most hilarious thing I've read on these forums. 10/10 excellent joke.

Anyway, the Protoss hate is getting really stupid. It's way way way worse than when people were whining about GOMTvT or Broodlord/Infestor. It's devolved into personal attacks and extreme vitriol that is worse than almost anything seen in SC2 history. It's really disappointing, and I think you might see more prominent players speak up about it.

I also gotta say I'm really tired when even commentators/tournament hosts are getting on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon. It just adds fuel to the fire =/

On February 16 2014 16:05 SC2Toastie wrote:

Everybody gets on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon because TvP is a mess (even statistics show it while Terran has a laughable amount of games played), and Terran is the most fun race to watch, so people hate.

On February 16 2014 16:23 KrazyTrumpet wrote:

so completely subjective...

On February 16 2014 16:29 SC2Toastie wrote:

So completely kinda supported by the fact almost every popular game/best of the year includes Terran...

Terran makes for chaos because both players have shit die and think on their feet. P follows a set playbook and not a lot of deviation is forced; popular Protoss games are all ins that equalize or Hero who plays a Terran esque style.

On February 16 2014 07:59 aTnClouD wrote:
MC has been only all ining since the beginning of SC2 and was never able to play as well as any other korean progamer in longer games. He never stood in the right place to comment about the game because all he did so far was abusing incredibly game breaking mechanics, like forcefield and warpgates all ins. He does it with incredible mastery and unit control, but he still misses a huge part of the game because he simply does not play past early or mid game.
I understand where he is coming from but his opinion about balance never had much value to begin with. There are way better progamers who strongly disagree with him.

On February 16 2014 16:39 xAdra wrote:

And I completely hate it when people do it like it's the players' faults. Like posts that go "I wish (this player) didn't win because his race is so fucking boring to watch" and the thousands of jokes out there that treat protoss players like babies because of the perceived "easiness". I can understand terran and zerg players preferring to watch their own race, and there is no need to always revile and insult protoss players because of how their race is inherently. It's not the fault of the players, blame the game. Similarly I don't blame zergs for going mass SH now- it's boring, but really, what do you do when it's the most effective tool at your disposal?

On February 16 2014 16:45 Sapphire.lux wrote:
But couldn't you make the same argument for Zerg in end WOL? Maps were getting bigger and bigger so Zerg, with it's Infestors, was able to do the things it did. You could have said , hei, it's not Zerg, it's the maps; if we make way smaller maps then Zerg is fixed.

I don't know, i'd rather not have so many restrictions on maps then we already have just because one race looks designed by a 10 year old. Interesting discussion though.

On February 16 2014 01:48 SC2Toastie wrote:
Going into what MC said;
We have 7 reasonably different maps in the pool, of which 2 are even and 5 are 'imbalanced'.
Shouldn't we still be looking at fixing TvP on these 'imba' maps, because Protoss limits map design so much in SC2? This is a question I want to put to discussion, not an opinion.
Examples:
FFE, defendable third, small main-blink in area, main not too open to air, maps not too large, compact naturals, etcetera.

On February 15 2014 21:52 TheDwf wrote:
I'm posting this because I see too many people saying Zerg is imba.
ZvP = 50/50. Really 50/50. Don't blame maps or whatever…
The worse player loses. Protoss that whine really don't have any shame.
ZvT = I'll tell you why ZvT is so imbalanced. In terms of game balance, there's no problem, right?
But in ladder maps Zerg is 65/35 vs Terran. It's really depressing for Terran.
Why? It's because we have 4 maps where Brood lords are very strong. Daybreak, Akilon Wastes, Entombed Valley, Antiga.
After that we have Cloud Kingdom which is one of the most favourable map for Zerg vs Terran.
If you look at Whirlwind, it's 50/50. Terran have an ok time on this map.
This is not about game balance, the maps for ZvT is just too good for Zerg.
Before, Hellions and Ghost Snipes that swayed the game in ZvT both got nerfed.
Now games where zergs easily masses up the composition without deterrence is here.
I really didn't want to talk about balance whine because I'm a pro player, but
People are saying that zerg players don't even try hard and win due to the race
As a veteran, I feel bad for players that get all the hate and feel angry about it.
Sniper and RorO didn't win GSL after they were fooling around for a week.
They probably worked very hard. So please stop saying they were "patch zergs".
In my eyes, the two Zergs played well and that's why they went through. As programers they really learnt how to build infests and cast fungals well.
Also I see a lot of talk about nerfing Fungal but if we nerf that Zerg gets fucked.
DK-nim also knows this and this is why he isn't nerfing it. Infested Terran was a good ability for 25 energy and I'm glad it got nerfed.
With no balancing, just a change of maps will bring 50/50 in ZvT.
I think it was maps why Zergs won last GSLs.
Think about it, last season had the same balancing, but before the map changes was terran really that bad against Zerg?