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I think Zerg hates protoss because protoss have nearly always the initiative in the MU. If Zerg loses to Protoss after an all-in, he will thinks :
It's imbalance, if i do as a zerg an all-in vs Protoss he only has to FF the ramp and activate photon overcharge, while me, to defend protoss i have to scout perfectly the all-in which comes to get the perfect army composition, and even with it protoss can win anyways if i don't take the perfect fight, because FF cut my army/my renforcement without i can do anything, and i don't even have the defender avantage cause warpgate.
So even, when you have 50/50 winrates in the MU, when you counter an all-in : you feel the protoss is just bad/you're way better cause it's easier to do an all-in than to defend it, and when you lose to it, you feel the same : toss have plenty OP all-in and you have none, so it's imbalanced. So 100% of the time you feel toss is OP/skillless, even if the winrate is 50%.
Zerg also require really heavy mecanisms to get at a good level Master/GM, while Toss requires rather BO/Timing. So when a zerg got beaten by someone who has half his APM in ladder, or see foreigner toss GM with poor mecanism, they feel the race is imba, and anybody can play it and perform with it.
Same to deathball, zerg feel massing colossus/void is really unskill while as a zerg you have to control well a SH/viper/infest/corruptor army you can't control in one group like colo/void, and can get stomp is not well positionned while the army value is the same or higher than toss army.
The mindset of protoss seem a bit different : When they win with an all-in, they feel they have good micro/good mindgame/zerg haven't well fight (and zerg just will think : can't micro my units because FF block me, mindgame=you're just lucky i can't always scoot the tech, you win because of random luck). When toss get perfectly countered they feel like Zerg is op, they win no matter what, mass SH is OP because he slowy take their deathball (And zerg feel : Haha Toss is mad because he can't A clik into win with his deathball with his 80 APM).
So whatever the winrate are, psychologically i think Zerg will always consider protoss as OP/noskill due to the different design of the two race, and the initiative power of the protoss in the MU.
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But remember that players like Patience has just get to know Starcraft 2 for a year? According to his interview in DreamHack Winter.
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Australia476 Posts
On February 16 2014 19:18 Tyrhanius wrote:
I think Zerg hates protoss because protoss have nearly always the initiative in the MU. If Zerg loses to Protoss after an all-in, he will thinks :
It's imbalance, if i do as a zerg an all-in vs Protoss he only has to FF the ramp and activate photon overcharge, while me, to defend protoss i have to scout perfectly the all-in which comes to get the perfect army composition, and even with it protoss can win anyways if i don't take the perfect fight, because FF cut my army/my renforcement without i can do anything, and i don't even have the defender avantage cause warpgate.
So even, when you have 50/50 winrates in the MU, when you counter an all-in : you feel the protoss is just bad/you're way better cause it's easier to do an all-in than to defend it, and when you lose to it, you feel the same : toss have plenty OP all-in and you have none, so it's imbalanced. So 100% of the time you feel toss is OP/skillless, even if the winrate is 50%.
Zerg also require really heavy mecanisms to get at a good level Master/GM, while Toss requires rather BO/Timing. So when a zerg got beaten by someone who has half his APM in ladder, or see foreigner toss GM with poor mecanism, they feel the race is imba, and anybody can play it and perform with it.
Same to deathball, zerg feel massing colossus/void is really unskill while as a zerg you have to control well a SH/viper/infest/corruptor army you can't control in one group like colo/void, and can get stomp is not well positionned while the army value is the same or higher than toss army.
The mindset of protoss seem a bit different : When they win with an all-in, they feel they have good micro/good mindgame/zerg haven't well fight (and zerg just will think : can't micro my units because FF block me, mindgame=you're just lucky i can't always scoot the tech, you win because of random luck). When toss get perfectly countered they feel like Zerg is op, they win no matter what, mass SH is OP because he slowy take their deathball (And zerg feel : Haha Toss is mad because he can't A clik into win with his deathball with his 80 APM).
So whatever the winrate are, psychologically i think Zerg will always consider protoss as OP/noskill due to the different design of the two race, and the initiative power of the protoss in the MU.
People always mention APM in relation to how much effort they put in to play a race. But don't macro mechanisms between races count differently towards APM?
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Too much whining destroys the entertainment value of watching an event and tuning in to the twitch chat of the stream. I've stopped checking the chat a long time ago because of this issue.
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On February 16 2014 18:29 Zealously wrote:And if Mvp spoke up you would disregard him as well?
Mvp knows he's not the king anymore but MC still considers himself the bosstoss
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On February 16 2014 19:30 etherealfall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2014 19:18 Tyrhanius wrote:
I think Zerg hates protoss because protoss have nearly always the initiative in the MU. If Zerg loses to Protoss after an all-in, he will thinks :
It's imbalance, if i do as a zerg an all-in vs Protoss he only has to FF the ramp and activate photon overcharge, while me, to defend protoss i have to scout perfectly the all-in which comes to get the perfect army composition, and even with it protoss can win anyways if i don't take the perfect fight, because FF cut my army/my renforcement without i can do anything, and i don't even have the defender avantage cause warpgate.
So even, when you have 50/50 winrates in the MU, when you counter an all-in : you feel the protoss is just bad/you're way better cause it's easier to do an all-in than to defend it, and when you lose to it, you feel the same : toss have plenty OP all-in and you have none, so it's imbalanced. So 100% of the time you feel toss is OP/skillless, even if the winrate is 50%.
Zerg also require really heavy mecanisms to get at a good level Master/GM, while Toss requires rather BO/Timing. So when a zerg got beaten by someone who has half his APM in ladder, or see foreigner toss GM with poor mecanism, they feel the race is imba, and anybody can play it and perform with it.
Same to deathball, zerg feel massing colossus/void is really unskill while as a zerg you have to control well a SH/viper/infest/corruptor army you can't control in one group like colo/void, and can get stomp is not well positionned while the army value is the same or higher than toss army.
The mindset of protoss seem a bit different : When they win with an all-in, they feel they have good micro/good mindgame/zerg haven't well fight (and zerg just will think : can't micro my units because FF block me, mindgame=you're just lucky i can't always scoot the tech, you win because of random luck). When toss get perfectly countered they feel like Zerg is op, they win no matter what, mass SH is OP because he slowy take their deathball (And zerg feel : Haha Toss is mad because he can't A clik into win with his deathball with his 80 APM).
So whatever the winrate are, psychologically i think Zerg will always consider protoss as OP/noskill due to the different design of the two race, and the initiative power of the protoss in the MU. People always mention APM in relation to how much effort they put in to play a race. But don't macro mechanisms between races count differently towards APM?
Zerg accord a lot of importance of APM because it's a mecanism heavy race ^^. But i haven't said it's an objective marker of skill, of course not.
You can spam click and have a lof of APM, while it's useless. Using cam keyboard seem not to increase APM compare to click on the minimap, while it seem a better mecanism tool. Aslo some when you morph 30 larvas will increase APM more than if you warp an army of the same pop, while it makes no difference.
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On February 16 2014 19:35 winthrop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2014 18:29 Zealously wrote:On February 16 2014 18:15 winthrop wrote:
one of betrayers of gsl has spoken And if Mvp spoke up you would disregard him as well? Mvp knows he's not the king anymore but MC still considers himself the bosstoss
How do you know what MC knows? Or for that matter what mvp knows?
Anyways this is so irrelevant to the topic at hand I don't even know why I bother to respond lol
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I like how offended people are and how wrong it is to claim someones good at abusing timings/all ins.
Is it wrong to say that 1-1-1 pretty much made PuMa's entire career?
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Blink balanced/Maps imba/Maps like Daybrake imposible for blink PvT/Where imba?
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Just wanna bring a strong point up.
A bad blink map is also a bad reaper map, and with a bad reaper map, eventho the terran might feel less afraid of blink play, he still need to worry bout any other variety of aggressive/greedy play. which he'll less likely be able to scout it.
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On February 16 2014 21:12 dohgg wrote:
Just wanna bring a strong point up.
A bad blink map is also a bad reaper map, and with a bad reaper map, eventho the terran might feel less afraid of blink play, he still need to worry bout any other variety of aggressive/greedy play. which he'll less likely be able to scout it.
That's not true; people are talking about double cliffs, something a reaper is fine with, but a Stalker all in is not. For example, look at the formation on Yeonsu. A reaper can easilly jump up over there, while Stalkers can't get in on that point (there's infinity other opportunities, but a double cliff forces shift queueing Blink which is very bad).
On February 16 2014 19:18 Tyrhanius wrote:
I think Zerg hates protoss because protoss have nearly always the initiative in the MU. If Zerg loses to Protoss after an all-in, he will thinks :
It's imbalance, if i do as a zerg an all-in vs Protoss he only has to FF the ramp and activate photon overcharge, while me, to defend protoss i have to scout perfectly the all-in which comes to get the perfect army composition, and even with it protoss can win anyways if i don't take the perfect fight, because FF cut my army/my renforcement without i can do anything, and i don't even have the defender avantage cause warpgate.
So even, when you have 50/50 winrates in the MU, when you counter an all-in : you feel the protoss is just bad/you're way better cause it's easier to do an all-in than to defend it, and when you lose to it, you feel the same : toss have plenty OP all-in and you have none, so it's imbalanced. So 100% of the time you feel toss is OP/skillless, even if the winrate is 50%.
Zerg also require really heavy mecanisms to get at a good level Master/GM, while Toss requires rather BO/Timing. So when a zerg got beaten by someone who has half his APM in ladder, or see foreigner toss GM with poor mecanism, they feel the race is imba, and anybody can play it and perform with it.
Same to deathball, zerg feel massing colossus/void is really unskill while as a zerg you have to control well a SH/viper/infest/corruptor army you can't control in one group like colo/void, and can get stomp is not well positionned while the army value is the same or higher than toss army.
The mindset of protoss seem a bit different : When they win with an all-in, they feel they have good micro/good mindgame/zerg haven't well fight (and zerg just will think : can't micro my units because FF block me, mindgame=you're just lucky i can't always scoot the tech, you win because of random luck). When toss get perfectly countered they feel like Zerg is op, they win no matter what, mass SH is OP because he slowy take their deathball (And zerg feel : Haha Toss is mad because he can't A clik into win with his deathball with his 80 APM).
So whatever the winrate are, psychologically i think Zerg will always consider protoss as OP/noskill due to the different design of the two race, and the initiative power of the protoss in the MU.
I like what you say.
As both Terran and Zerg you ALWAYS play Reactive.
While you are forced to delay the protoss and snipe stuff, force him to be as honest as possible, etcetera, all Protoss does all game every game is do his buildorder, attack when it suits him, and usually, that ends the game.
It's why protoss isn't entertaining to watch and for Z/T it is annoying to play: Excecuting a BO is so much easier than holding it with imperfect information.
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On February 16 2014 20:24 joopajoo wrote:
I like how offended people are and how wrong it is to claim someones good at abusing timings/all ins.
Is it wrong to say that 1-1-1 pretty much made PuMa's entire career?
Was Puma relevant after that? Not really.
Was MC relevant after protoss allins went out of fashion? Yes.
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On February 16 2014 21:45 xAdra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2014 20:24 joopajoo wrote:
I like how offended people are and how wrong it is to claim someones good at abusing timings/all ins.
Is it wrong to say that 1-1-1 pretty much made PuMa's entire career? Was Puma relevant after that? Not really. Was MC relevant after protoss allins went out of fashion? Yes.
Protoss all-ins went out of fashion? When?
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PuMa had some of the best late game ghost control as well for a while, also was very strong at tvt at various stages. He fell off because he couldnt keep up, not because 1/1/1 was nerfed. Much like TOP fell off, Zenio and a crapload of other players!
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I will not argue with MC because he is not just a pro gamer and makes his living with it so ofc he knows better. In fact he is a real expert and what he says has just more value than anyone else that just is a ladder hero. Even if he is GM. Their opinion has to have zero value in my opinion. So as he explained his point of view I agree with him. BUT:
People will continue to bitch. They bitch harder if they just suck or are not interested in improving at all. Rarely people bitch that just reached their skill cap and understood it. You can take any game and its forum you will see the same patterns of argumentation. Many just misunderstood the freedom of speech. There is no point that says you dont have to think before you start to talk.
Since the game Industry turned around and takes the player by his hand in every step so that improving went obsolete and that people have to spend time in a game to get better and understand it, its kind of natural.
Its like the kid is used to get every day 2 cookies and now it just gets one cookie. Ofc it will get pissed and bitch.
But this has positive sides too. The money I spend on games dropped drastically. For the year 2014 there is just one game I am kind of interested in. But if it requires me to install ubisoft play software I will just ignore the game too.
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On February 16 2014 21:48 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2014 21:45 xAdra wrote:On February 16 2014 20:24 joopajoo wrote:
I like how offended people are and how wrong it is to claim someones good at abusing timings/all ins.
Is it wrong to say that 1-1-1 pretty much made PuMa's entire career? Was Puma relevant after that? Not really. Was MC relevant after protoss allins went out of fashion? Yes. Protoss all-ins went out of fashion? When?
What I meant was when protoss stopped using all-ins for every single game and started doing strong macro builds. During MC's era, pretty much every protoss did allins. The modern form of protoss macro only started really catching up after MC's peak, iirc. Granted it's still dominant in PvT now, but at least PvZ and PvP aren't 4gate fests or forcefield-reliant allins every single game.
I'll agree with the post written on top of me that people will always whine, and leave this thread before I get angry and earn warnings or whatnot. I myself am guilty of whining during the BL-infestor era (though I feel that iteration of fungal growth is far more infuriating than anything else the game can present to me) so now that I've seen what it feels like to have my race being whined at I'll say that I've had enough of balance whining to last a lifetime.
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On February 16 2014 15:25 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Anyway, the Protoss hate is getting really stupid. It's way way way worse than when people were whining about GOMTvT or Broodlord/Infestor. It's devolved into personal attacks and extreme vitriol that is worse than almost anything seen in SC2 history. It's really disappointing, and I think you might see more prominent players speak up about it.
I also gotta say I'm really tired when even commentators/tournament hosts are getting on the Protoss hate circlejerk bandwagon. It just adds fuel to the fire =/
It's way worse than GOMTvT or Broodlord/Infestor?
Nope. It may seem to appear that way cause the mentioned eras are over - but the hate directed at Zerg while Br/Inf was a whole different scale. And GomTvT did earn that name.
The grass is always greener on the other side. Dont be that biased.
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On February 16 2014 19:30 etherealfall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2014 19:18 Tyrhanius wrote:
I think Zerg hates protoss because protoss have nearly always the initiative in the MU. If Zerg loses to Protoss after an all-in, he will thinks :
It's imbalance, if i do as a zerg an all-in vs Protoss he only has to FF the ramp and activate photon overcharge, while me, to defend protoss i have to scout perfectly the all-in which comes to get the perfect army composition, and even with it protoss can win anyways if i don't take the perfect fight, because FF cut my army/my renforcement without i can do anything, and i don't even have the defender avantage cause warpgate.
So even, when you have 50/50 winrates in the MU, when you counter an all-in : you feel the protoss is just bad/you're way better cause it's easier to do an all-in than to defend it, and when you lose to it, you feel the same : toss have plenty OP all-in and you have none, so it's imbalanced. So 100% of the time you feel toss is OP/skillless, even if the winrate is 50%.
Zerg also require really heavy mecanisms to get at a good level Master/GM, while Toss requires rather BO/Timing. So when a zerg got beaten by someone who has half his APM in ladder, or see foreigner toss GM with poor mecanism, they feel the race is imba, and anybody can play it and perform with it.
Same to deathball, zerg feel massing colossus/void is really unskill while as a zerg you have to control well a SH/viper/infest/corruptor army you can't control in one group like colo/void, and can get stomp is not well positionned while the army value is the same or higher than toss army.
The mindset of protoss seem a bit different : When they win with an all-in, they feel they have good micro/good mindgame/zerg haven't well fight (and zerg just will think : can't micro my units because FF block me, mindgame=you're just lucky i can't always scoot the tech, you win because of random luck). When toss get perfectly countered they feel like Zerg is op, they win no matter what, mass SH is OP because he slowy take their deathball (And zerg feel : Haha Toss is mad because he can't A clik into win with his deathball with his 80 APM).
So whatever the winrate are, psychologically i think Zerg will always consider protoss as OP/noskill due to the different design of the two race, and the initiative power of the protoss in the MU. People always mention APM in relation to how much effort they put in to play a race. But don't macro mechanisms between races count differently towards APM?
It definitely accounts for some of it. As a zerg player, I can't say that I completely agree with all of his post, but some of it rings true to me. The match up feels a bit rock paper scissor ish. It can make you very frustrated at times, on both sides.
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Wasn't MC the dude that complained that Zerg is too strong in the past?
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On February 16 2014 23:51 Nikon wrote:
Wasn't MC the dude that complained that Zerg is too strong in the past?
And Zerg wasnt during the BL Infestor era? Correct me if im wrong.
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EPT
