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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:23 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 05:13 tenklavir wrote:On February 12 2014 05:00 ZeromuS wrote:On February 12 2014 04:19 avilo wrote:On February 12 2014 03:53 NonY wrote:
Big thing about the blink cooldown change is mobility. Blink stalkers are typically pretty safe to explore the map, even when marauders or ling/roach could also be on the field. However, it's the second blink that really gets you to safety when running from those things. If the second blink is delayed 5 seconds, I think it'll force protoss to be much more passive with stalkers. It crosses a threshold where you run a risk of the stalkers getting caught and they all die.
In my opinion, Blizzard clearly isn't just targeting the PvT blink all-ins with the blink change. But why they would want to nerf blink in general is beyond me. Stalkers kinda suck in general. They're a niche unit that becomes viable in a decent number of situations only because of blink. The problem is right now there's no risk at all to really using blink stalkers in PvT. You can virtually always escape every single time either from the Terran's base after offensive blinks, or you can do the fake blink macro builds and never lose any stalkers but still heavily pressure Terran at no risk whatsoever to yourself. Making blink require more thought to use and have more risk associated to it will go a long way to help TvP balance because right now the balance of TvP is quite abysmal. There are too, too many PvT openings that have low risks associated with them, blink probably being the one that almost always puts the Protoss player ahead, or at the very worst even which is pretty lame. With 9 range vision the MsC cannot provide adequate vision from a safe range of the positioning of all of terran forces. This means protoss players cannot blink into a terran base with full knowledge of the terran army position every time without also gaining extra info from a poke at the front for example to see what is there. If protoss does want that vision of terran base they must commit the MsC close enough that it is danger of taking damage or being killed. Why exactly is Protoss entitled to a safe blink into the Terran base? The whole idea is that there should be some risk involved in this kind of play, which is exactly why so many Terran hate (and continue to hate) the Oracle change - an aggressive, potentially high-reward play should come with some degree of risk. I am specifically mentioning how the MsC nerf is already adding a lot more risk to the blink options vs Terran. I don't see what you are arguing? If you cant see everything its not a free safe blink. This provides more chances for terran to abuse either the more limited vision of the mama core leading to quick poor blink decisions or for terran to damage or kill the mothership core. Further the widow mine change means its even more effective vs one base blink all ins if the terran player has a fact coming see Twilight or a lot of stalkers and no natural. Will it help vs blink expands? Not specifically, I mean, Protoss can still make 6 - 8 stalkers off 2 base with blink and pressure terran while taking a third, but that build doesnt get a lot of gates. If the Protoss player gets a lot of gates and doesnt commit to a big attack instead expanding with 2 gas to a third base terran should have a timing to hurt the protoss player in some way or get ahead in tech/upgrades pretty easily. The reaction from terran will require scouting and reaction to that scouting which is a metagame thing that slowly evolves and grows as the Terrans deal with it more. But thats different from balance, thats an issue of understanding from both sides. Once terran figures out the reaction Protoss will either stop doing it or retool the build to be more safe allowing terran less timing options, but more stable opportunities to expand or not lose much to the small stalker squad assuming good reactions. Thats how the game evolves Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 05:23 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2014 05:18 TimKim0713 wrote:
Why so low terran contributors...
Need korean opinions as well As always, teamliquid get the answers from people that respond. I am sure they would be happy to publish any pros opinion if they took the time to write it down. YES! We had a shorter deadline for this one and a few things compound the smaller number of terrans: - fewer foreign terrans than the other races in general - fewer terrans willing to provide feedback in general (we hope as these releases get more positive answers, people open up to contributing) - some Koreans who were available and willing this time provided either limited comments or ones that were a little off topic or not related to this patch note So I hope you can understand. If any pro Terrans want to contribute to the next one PM and I will try to include you in the next one, as long as you have a decently level head, as we try to focus on people who can consolidate their race bias and look at the game a little more objectively (pure objectivity is impossible though so we take that with a grain of salt)
I can do Taeja one for you now.
Terran too weak. Even just one mistake at the beginning is the end of the game. Better to just gg now and save your energy for the next match.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:27 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 05:25 Survivor61316 wrote:On February 12 2014 05:00 Waise wrote:On February 12 2014 04:53 Survivor61316 wrote:
I'm sorry qxc, but those were some terrible proposed changes to the sh..
Why don't they just decrease the time between waves and shorten the timer until the locusts die. Zerg would no longer be able to hit you with free units from 1/3 the way across the map, and would have to keep their sh much closer to the opponents army. Combine this with a reduction to the burrow time for the swarm host, and suddenly Zergs have to continue to reposition them, which doesnt allow for them to just passively keep them next to a great wall of spores and spines. Also, a quicker burrow time would mean that they could be used for hit and run tactics around the map, which should add to the watchability/playability of the MU. zerg already has to aggressively reposition their SH to succeed in high level play. SH already require good multitasking and map awareness. this is not the issue with SH at all. please stop suggesting this No they don't. They plant them and thats about the end of it. Thats why they can also plant static d, because the sh aren't going anywhere anytime soon. You do understand zerg static defense is not actually static?
Spores and spines have no use while mobile; I think that's enough for them to qualify as "static" - they only fulfill their role when rooted, though the mobility in itself gives the static part an advantage.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
As for SH, you can play them either aggressively or defensively. But in TvZ or PvZ, if either side just wants to play defensively, it forces both players to play defensive.
*Except in the case of MC. I think he has a kill timing for Zergs that use SH.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:37 stuchiu wrote:
As for SH, you can play them either aggressively or defensively. But in TvZ or PvZ, if either side just wants to play defensively, it forces both players to play defensive.
*Except in the case of MC. I think he has a kill timing for Zergs that use SH.
To be honest MC probably has a ZvT kill timing involving tanks and swarm hosts
yes you read that correctly
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:39 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 05:37 stuchiu wrote:
As for SH, you can play them either aggressively or defensively. But in TvZ or PvZ, if either side just wants to play defensively, it forces both players to play defensive.
*Except in the case of MC. I think he has a kill timing for Zergs that use SH. To be honest MC probably has a ZvT kill timing involving tanks and swarm hosts yes you read that correctly
Time to set up offrace showmatches.
I have Minigun, Taeja, Major and MC. Who else is really good with other races?
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:40 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 05:39 Zealously wrote:On February 12 2014 05:37 stuchiu wrote:
As for SH, you can play them either aggressively or defensively. But in TvZ or PvZ, if either side just wants to play defensively, it forces both players to play defensive.
*Except in the case of MC. I think he has a kill timing for Zergs that use SH. To be honest MC probably has a ZvT kill timing involving tanks and swarm hosts yes you read that correctly Time to set up offrace showmatches. I have Minigun, Taeja and MC. Who else is really good with other races?
I mean Classic should be pretty good with Terran if that counts
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4713 Posts
Awesome job, it was really fun reading trough their impressions of this patch.
Glad to see that a lot of them agree the blink nerf is too extreme, hydra buff being insufficient and Tempest change not touching the root of the problem.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:41 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 05:40 stuchiu wrote:On February 12 2014 05:39 Zealously wrote:On February 12 2014 05:37 stuchiu wrote:
As for SH, you can play them either aggressively or defensively. But in TvZ or PvZ, if either side just wants to play defensively, it forces both players to play defensive.
*Except in the case of MC. I think he has a kill timing for Zergs that use SH. To be honest MC probably has a ZvT kill timing involving tanks and swarm hosts yes you read that correctly Time to set up offrace showmatches. I have Minigun, Taeja and MC. Who else is really good with other races? I mean Classic should be pretty good with Terran if that counts
Classic improved by like 4 times when he switched over to Toss last year.
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On February 12 2014 05:40 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 05:39 Zealously wrote:On February 12 2014 05:37 stuchiu wrote:
As for SH, you can play them either aggressively or defensively. But in TvZ or PvZ, if either side just wants to play defensively, it forces both players to play defensive.
*Except in the case of MC. I think he has a kill timing for Zergs that use SH. To be honest MC probably has a ZvT kill timing involving tanks and swarm hosts yes you read that correctly Time to set up offrace showmatches. I have Minigun, Taeja, Major and MC. Who else is really good with other races?
Mvp used to beat HuK on ladder with Zerg. 
When HuK was in Code S and still winning tournaments, that is.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:41 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 05:41 Zealously wrote:On February 12 2014 05:40 stuchiu wrote:On February 12 2014 05:39 Zealously wrote:On February 12 2014 05:37 stuchiu wrote:
As for SH, you can play them either aggressively or defensively. But in TvZ or PvZ, if either side just wants to play defensively, it forces both players to play defensive.
*Except in the case of MC. I think he has a kill timing for Zergs that use SH. To be honest MC probably has a ZvT kill timing involving tanks and swarm hosts yes you read that correctly Time to set up offrace showmatches. I have Minigun, Taeja and MC. Who else is really good with other races? I mean Classic should be pretty good with Terran if that counts Classic improved by like 4 times when he switched over to Toss last year.
I somehow still think Classic's T would still beat the majority of foreign players given a week of practise
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United States97276 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:44 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 05:41 stuchiu wrote:On February 12 2014 05:41 Zealously wrote:On February 12 2014 05:40 stuchiu wrote:On February 12 2014 05:39 Zealously wrote:On February 12 2014 05:37 stuchiu wrote:
As for SH, you can play them either aggressively or defensively. But in TvZ or PvZ, if either side just wants to play defensively, it forces both players to play defensive.
*Except in the case of MC. I think he has a kill timing for Zergs that use SH. To be honest MC probably has a ZvT kill timing involving tanks and swarm hosts yes you read that correctly Time to set up offrace showmatches. I have Minigun, Taeja and MC. Who else is really good with other races? I mean Classic should be pretty good with Terran if that counts Classic improved by like 4 times when he switched over to Toss last year. I somehow still think Classic's T would still beat the majority of foreign players given a week of practise
Couldn't beat Thorzain!!!
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On February 12 2014 05:23 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 05:13 tenklavir wrote:On February 12 2014 05:00 ZeromuS wrote:On February 12 2014 04:19 avilo wrote:On February 12 2014 03:53 NonY wrote:
Big thing about the blink cooldown change is mobility. Blink stalkers are typically pretty safe to explore the map, even when marauders or ling/roach could also be on the field. However, it's the second blink that really gets you to safety when running from those things. If the second blink is delayed 5 seconds, I think it'll force protoss to be much more passive with stalkers. It crosses a threshold where you run a risk of the stalkers getting caught and they all die.
In my opinion, Blizzard clearly isn't just targeting the PvT blink all-ins with the blink change. But why they would want to nerf blink in general is beyond me. Stalkers kinda suck in general. They're a niche unit that becomes viable in a decent number of situations only because of blink. The problem is right now there's no risk at all to really using blink stalkers in PvT. You can virtually always escape every single time either from the Terran's base after offensive blinks, or you can do the fake blink macro builds and never lose any stalkers but still heavily pressure Terran at no risk whatsoever to yourself. Making blink require more thought to use and have more risk associated to it will go a long way to help TvP balance because right now the balance of TvP is quite abysmal. There are too, too many PvT openings that have low risks associated with them, blink probably being the one that almost always puts the Protoss player ahead, or at the very worst even which is pretty lame. With 9 range vision the MsC cannot provide adequate vision from a safe range of the positioning of all of terran forces. This means protoss players cannot blink into a terran base with full knowledge of the terran army position every time without also gaining extra info from a poke at the front for example to see what is there. If protoss does want that vision of terran base they must commit the MsC close enough that it is danger of taking damage or being killed. Why exactly is Protoss entitled to a safe blink into the Terran base? The whole idea is that there should be some risk involved in this kind of play, which is exactly why so many Terran hate (and continue to hate) the Oracle change - an aggressive, potentially high-reward play should come with some degree of risk. I am specifically mentioning how the MsC nerf is already adding a lot more risk to the blink options vs Terran. I don't see what you are arguing? If you cant see everything its not a free safe blink. This provides more chances for terran to abuse either the more limited vision of the mama core leading to quick poor blink decisions or for terran to damage or kill the mothership core. Further the widow mine change means its even more effective vs one base blink all ins if the terran player has a fact coming see Twilight or a lot of stalkers and no natural. Will it help vs blink expands? Not specifically, I mean, Protoss can still make 6 - 8 stalkers off 2 base with blink and pressure terran while taking a third, but that build doesnt get a lot of gates. If the Protoss player gets a lot of gates and doesnt commit to a big attack instead expanding with 2 gas to a third base terran should have a timing to hurt the protoss player in some way or get ahead in tech/upgrades pretty easily. The reaction from terran will require scouting and reaction to that scouting which is a metagame thing that slowly evolves and grows as the Terrans deal with it more. But thats different from balance, thats an issue of understanding from both sides. Once terran figures out the reaction Protoss will either stop doing it or retool the build to be more safe allowing terran less timing options, but more stable opportunities to expand or not lose much to the small stalker squad assuming good reactions. Thats how the game evolves Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 05:23 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2014 05:18 TimKim0713 wrote:
Why so low terran contributors...
Need korean opinions as well As always, teamliquid get the answers from people that respond. I am sure they would be happy to publish any pros opinion if they took the time to write it down. YES! We had a shorter deadline for this one and a few things compound the smaller number of terrans: - fewer foreign terrans than the other races in general - fewer terrans willing to provide feedback in general (we hope as these releases get more positive answers, people open up to contributing) - some Koreans who were available and willing this time provided either limited comments or ones that were a little off topic or not related to this patch note So I hope you can understand. If any pro Terrans want to contribute to the next one PM and I will try to include you in the next one, as long as you have a decently level head, as we try to focus on people who can consolidate their race bias and look at the game a little more objectively (pure objectivity is impossible though so we take that with a grain of salt)
I also absolutely hate the blink nerf. If blink all ins are still too powerful after the MSC vision nerf, the next thing they should look at is the time warp spell. This also makes blink all ins so much more powerful. Pulled workers are not able to connect with the stalkers, Marines are never able to close the distance, and micro in general is hindered a lot. Especially terrible are time warps on ramps.
I do not even see why this spell has to be in the game, especially for toss. It is far to similar to forcefields, while being less interesting, easier to execute and impossible to micro against. Honestly I think the best option might even be to remove the spell entirely and replace it with something else.
The Energize spell it had in the beta was far more interesting and unique for example. The MSC could fill up the energy of another unit for a certain energy. This would also help defensive HT play a lot. With the recent EMP change and the possible hydra change in mind this spell could be quite helpful in certain situations. It would also help a lot in PvP early game. A full energy sentry can be quite the game changer!
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Italy12247 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:29 Smurfett3 wrote:
people rely on mothership core so much they forgot about hallucinations and how they are free and dont need an upgrade for that...
A hallucination scout is available much, much later than a msc scout and therefore it's sometimes impossible to react on time. This is the case, for example, with every PvP one base allin.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:46 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 05:44 Zealously wrote:On February 12 2014 05:41 stuchiu wrote:On February 12 2014 05:41 Zealously wrote:On February 12 2014 05:40 stuchiu wrote:On February 12 2014 05:39 Zealously wrote:On February 12 2014 05:37 stuchiu wrote:
As for SH, you can play them either aggressively or defensively. But in TvZ or PvZ, if either side just wants to play defensively, it forces both players to play defensive.
*Except in the case of MC. I think he has a kill timing for Zergs that use SH. To be honest MC probably has a ZvT kill timing involving tanks and swarm hosts yes you read that correctly Time to set up offrace showmatches. I have Minigun, Taeja and MC. Who else is really good with other races? I mean Classic should be pretty good with Terran if that counts Classic improved by like 4 times when he switched over to Toss last year. I somehow still think Classic's T would still beat the majority of foreign players given a week of practise Couldn't beat Thorzain!!!
Sjow's can only just play PvT in this showmatch! Perfect!
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If they put that hydra buff through, it will break 2 base immortal style all ins I don't think you will ever see one again.
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On February 12 2014 05:27 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 05:25 Survivor61316 wrote:On February 12 2014 05:00 Waise wrote:On February 12 2014 04:53 Survivor61316 wrote:
I'm sorry qxc, but those were some terrible proposed changes to the sh..
Why don't they just decrease the time between waves and shorten the timer until the locusts die. Zerg would no longer be able to hit you with free units from 1/3 the way across the map, and would have to keep their sh much closer to the opponents army. Combine this with a reduction to the burrow time for the swarm host, and suddenly Zergs have to continue to reposition them, which doesnt allow for them to just passively keep them next to a great wall of spores and spines. Also, a quicker burrow time would mean that they could be used for hit and run tactics around the map, which should add to the watchability/playability of the MU. zerg already has to aggressively reposition their SH to succeed in high level play. SH already require good multitasking and map awareness. this is not the issue with SH at all. please stop suggesting this No they don't. They plant them and thats about the end of it. Thats why they can also plant static d, because the sh aren't going anywhere anytime soon. You do understand zerg static defense is not actually static?
No shit. It still takes a while to burrow, so if the zerg was constantly moving their sh they would either continually be losing their static d or the toss would just roll past it to the new un-entrenched zerg position..
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:49 shivver wrote:
If they put that hydra buff through, it will break 2 base immortal style all ins I don't think you will ever see one again.
Not that I'm necessarily advocating that one particular buff, but would it really be so bad to shake up the repertoir of builds and styles (for all races) a bit? If the immortal all-in were to become less effective but be replaced by something else, that's something I wouldn't mind seeing.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:49 shivver wrote:
If they put that hydra buff through, it will break 2 base immortal style all ins I don't think you will ever see one again.
Who the fuck do you think Parting is?
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The pros are saying it. I think we should have a "pros offer suggestions on how to fix Swarm Hosts" thread, at least to send Blizzard a message.
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On February 12 2014 05:36 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 05:27 Squat wrote:On February 12 2014 05:25 Survivor61316 wrote:On February 12 2014 05:00 Waise wrote:On February 12 2014 04:53 Survivor61316 wrote:
I'm sorry qxc, but those were some terrible proposed changes to the sh..
Why don't they just decrease the time between waves and shorten the timer until the locusts die. Zerg would no longer be able to hit you with free units from 1/3 the way across the map, and would have to keep their sh much closer to the opponents army. Combine this with a reduction to the burrow time for the swarm host, and suddenly Zergs have to continue to reposition them, which doesnt allow for them to just passively keep them next to a great wall of spores and spines. Also, a quicker burrow time would mean that they could be used for hit and run tactics around the map, which should add to the watchability/playability of the MU. zerg already has to aggressively reposition their SH to succeed in high level play. SH already require good multitasking and map awareness. this is not the issue with SH at all. please stop suggesting this No they don't. They plant them and thats about the end of it. Thats why they can also plant static d, because the sh aren't going anywhere anytime soon. You do understand zerg static defense is not actually static? Spores and spines have no use while mobile; I think that's enough for them to qualify as "static" - they only fulfill their role when rooted, though the mobility in itself gives the static part an advantage.
That's simply not true. Swarm host turtle would not be anywhere as powerful as it if zerg static defense could not move. It's the ability to basically erect a Maginot Line wherever there is creep that makes this style so hard to deal with. Swarm hosts move around plenty, and the fact that they can bring their defenses with them is pretty much make or break for SH turtle style.
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EPT
