• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 00:58
CET 06:58
KST 14:58
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
[BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 102SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-1821Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises3Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies3ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !11
StarCraft 2
General
SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Starcraft 2 Zerg Coach ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !
Tourneys
uThermal 2v2 Circuit OSC Season 13 World Championship WardiTV Mondays $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship $100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 506 Warp Zone Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play
Brood War
General
I would like to say something about StarCraft Empty tournaments section on Liquipedia A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10 SLON Grand Finals – Season 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Beyond All Reason Elden Ring Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Awesome Games Done Quick 2026!
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Big Programming Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced
Blogs
National Diversity: A Challe…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1441 users

Feb 10 Proposed Changes: Pro Opinions - Page 18

Forum Index > SC2 General
343 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 16 17 18 All
Pirfiktshon
Profile Joined June 2013
United States1072 Posts
February 20 2014 13:39 GMT
#341
Agreed, Sometimes it feels like these stupid situation will never be changed or fixed..... So I don't see the reign of terror stopping anytime soon... Personally I would like to see the game stabilize to something awesome then the balancing team just leave everything alone! lol instead of changing things out of " Stale Meta " Honestly they should let the players advance the meta... its hard to get better at a game that is constantly changing....
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
February 20 2014 15:01 GMT
#342
On February 20 2014 22:39 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Agreed, Sometimes it feels like these stupid situation will never be changed or fixed..... So I don't see the reign of terror stopping anytime soon... Personally I would like to see the game stabilize to something awesome then the balancing team just leave everything alone! lol instead of changing things out of " Stale Meta " Honestly they should let the players advance the meta... its hard to get better at a game that is constantly changing....


We have something awesome. We always had*. That's why we are here in these forums.

*and no change has ever destroyed the core of awesomeness we hold.
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
February 20 2014 15:17 GMT
#343
On February 20 2014 22:12 Eliezar wrote:
Rollora,

As for can the game be balanced...sure it can be reasonably balanced. First of course you need to define balance.

If you make it that on pro authorized maps all races have at least a 46% win rate against all other races then bam we have it and we have had numbers around those off and on for the duration of starcraft 2.

I don't know why people want to bring up warp gate. You can look at offensive ground army harassment options.

Terran has drops and can often drop their entire army. These drops come with healing and the ability to rapidly evacuate the units. This often leads early game to keeping units at home and late game into base trades. Terran also has speedy hellions to just run around and mobile reapers that can abuse terrain and self heal.

Protoss has proxy pylons and warp prisms. Can warp in as many units as they have gateways, but escape requires a mothership core to be with the harassment (not likely). Warp prism storm drops are excellent worker harass. Protoss also has blink stalkers that can abuse terrain every 10 seconds.

Zerg has nydus, drops, and the fastest ground army. Zerglings can easily do run by's and have very high dps per food investment. If Zerg gets drops they can always drop their entire ground army. Nydus is mostly used as an early midgame all in type play or to get slow units across the map faster. They also have burrowed movement for roaches and infestors that has won many a pro game.

I can tell you right now that Protoss would love to have a Nydus like warp gate that would allow their entire army to walk into a hidden spot and escape back. Zerg would love to have overlords that were fast and could also heal their dropped units (building swipes and their disposable lings/roaches live a little longer to ensure the snipe?). Terran would love to have the ability to have their units arrive from medivacs inside the base rather than having to only use loaded units.

Its just so silly to focus on 1 mechanic and say nobody else can do that. Protoss has ZERO healing...maybe that makes them the worst? Terran has both the repair option and Medivacs which are super powerful...queens have long been amazing with ultras and broodlords..or timely transfuses to save a hatch or spore or another queen.

Its the differences between the races that have made blizzard RTS games so good. Bloodlust was way overpowered in war2, but it was a fun game. StarCraft took it to the next level although balance has always been a bit tougher.

Still...overall I think the problems with starcraft center around the scale and speed of the game and just a few stupid units. I'll put swarmhosts and broodlords in that group as the only units I just hate within the game design. I wish the game played out in slower battles (way reduce dps, especially for stimmed bio) over more bases. But the game is overall pretty good.


I want to dd collosi, roach, corruptor, marauder, thor to that.
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
Jj_82
Profile Joined December 2012
Swaziland419 Posts
March 16 2014 21:31 GMT
#344
On February 17 2014 02:52 DomeGetta wrote:
Show nested quote +
Just wanted to give props to LiquidHero for highlighting one of main issues making TvP a rofl-fest.
As disappointed as I am to see Innovation get 3-0'd - this is exactly what Blizzard needs to see.
Let's examine exactly what happened / happens (over and over again on the NA masters + ladder).

1 base aggressive options for Terran: - Gas first opener - (Widowmine drops / Helion Drops / Cloak Banshee)
Protoss scouting / reaction:
Probe scout gas first - (Forge / cannon at both mineral into robo/macro up counters all 3)

1 base aggressive options for Protoss (Just fully ignoring old school 4 gates) - Double gas 3 on each.
Proxy Oracle / Proxy Twilight into Blink / Proxy Twilight into DT / Proxy Robo into 3 gate immortal bust.

Terran scouting / reaction:
To counter DT / Oracle - Ebay needed (if you call letting 2 oracles keep you in your base while the protoss gets a fast third a counter)
To counter Blink/Immo bunkers in the main / CC inside (if you can call being contained on 1 base a counter - only reason it's the "counter" is because it's the only way not to die)

So you have a 50/50 chance of living and being behind vs. 1 base aggression assuming you can't find the proxy soon enough (good luck on most of the large maps) and let's be honest - even if you scout blink coming you still have a 50/50 chance of dying to it with EQUAL mechanics. If the protoss has as good or better micro you will certainly lose.

Now let's forget about proxy or 1 base - assume you open reaper and you find the Twilight with an expo... what does this really mean? Well - could be 2 base blink.. could be DT /Warp Prism...could be fast HT with double forge into a 2 base all in...even an 8 gate with fast 2/2..or if the protoss is smart (LiquidHero) could be a fake into macroing up.


So let's recap - all above being considered - what exactly does the protoss have to worry about in terms of aggression that MSC / 1 gate can't hold? Absolutely nothing that can't be scouted by the initial probe scout (11/11 etc). Yet the Terran has to examine a ridiculous sum of potential threats - guess correctly and micro perfectly just to get into the mid to late game.. I'm sorry but this is really just ridiculous and I think even protoss players would agree that there is absolutely nothing "impressive" or to marvel at watching games like this.. who really wants to see a 3-0 - 30 minute series where each game was decided (the last game I will say was not related to this) not by impressive multitask - micro - macro / decision making / strategy and tactics but by absolute nonsense. The fact that a NA player with platinum mechanics can get to GM as protoss says nothing about "balance" per say but be totally honest with yourself, what Hero did in game 1 happens on ladder every day by platinum level players.. really look at the game and outside of the "genius move" that made him go blink vs DT when he saw the Ebay drop.. what else went on there that was even remotely impressive? I'm sorry but you can change MSC spells / fiddle around with whatever else you want until you fix this issue the match-up is going to be this way. Not a pro here by any means (casual mid masters player) but this doesn't take a pro to realize.

Exactly how I feel, too.
Once rode a waterslide with PartinG and TaeJa ✌
Prev 1 16 17 18 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
Enki Epic Series #7
Liquipedia
Patches Events
20:00
The 5.4k Patch Clash #10
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft552
RuFF_SC2 270
NeuroSwarm 211
StarCraft: Brood War
Larva 568
Zeus 202
Shuttle 100
Nal_rA 68
Dota 2
XaKoH 388
LuMiX0
League of Legends
JimRising 782
C9.Mang0586
Counter-Strike
summit1g9349
Other Games
ViBE183
minikerr40
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 55
• Azhi_Dahaki20
• Diggity7
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21664
League of Legends
• Stunt563
Other Games
• Shiphtur1146
Upcoming Events
OSC
6h 2m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
8h 2m
BSL 21
14h 2m
Dewalt vs Cross
Replay Cast
1d 3h
Wardi Open
1d 6h
RotterdaM Event
1d 11h
Patches Events
1d 14h
PiGosaur Cup
1d 19h
OSC
2 days
SOOP
2 days
[ Show More ]
OSC
3 days
OSC
4 days
SOOP
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Slon Tour Season 2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
Escore Tournament S1: W3
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Thunderfire SC2 All-star 2025
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
Underdog Cup #3
NA Kuram Kup
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.