|
On February 15 2014 00:30 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 00:25 VArsovskiSC wrote:
BOTH SH and WM are very good units at a level of design..
Problem is that they were released in the game as they came from the day1 in beta - i.e. - nothing was tweaked or experimented.. - Blizz never tried to do a better execution/implementation regarding those two
The last change (or couple of changes) to WM making it versatile unit instead of just vs Zerg only - is just one proof of that fact
In general as a whole - think it's a bad design "idea" to make units specialized vs only one race.. Such as the case of WM being only vs Zerg You're a bit off. The WM was changed more than any other unit in the last 1-2 years.
infestor...
and the SH was tweaked too. But I agree with VArsovskiSC on SH tweaking. The tweaks they did to it were minor (unlike what they did with the mine, which resulted in a very good & fun unit). They had some cool ideas with it back in the alpha (GtA attacks from locusts) and how they wanted it to be played out. But all they did was play around with locust stats instead of trying to make it work the way they wanted it to be used and which sounded awesome (midgame siege unit). Also I think they underestimated how much defensive capability Zerg lost through infestor nerfs and medivac/Prism buffs and all that MsC centered play, which makes it quite hard to play anything slowsieging like SHs in the midgame.
|
Quick question on the widow mine change:
Since the mine does 40 damage at 1.25 radius and a bit less outside of that, how is the shield damage applied? Is there any extra shield damage done when the mine would normally do 20 or 10 damage? The patch note just says 40 + 40 and nothing on the other damage values.
If it just applies to the main radius then widow mines are completely unchanged against probes.
|
If it just applies to the main radius then widow mines are completely unchanged against probes.
I don't know, but I think it sounds reasonable that it stays unchanged against probes.
|
On February 19 2014 19:26 TW wrote:Show nested quote +If it just applies to the main radius then widow mines are completely unchanged against probes. I don't know, but I think it sounds reasonable that it stays unchanged against probes.
Well David Kim himself said that one reason for this buff is to improve widow mine drops.
It was easily defendable and a niche strategy even when mines oneshot probes at a full 1.75 radius.
|
I can't believe they won't look at voidrays/corruptors. That seems like such an obvious way to make SH less used.
|
On February 19 2014 21:29 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 19:26 TW wrote:If it just applies to the main radius then widow mines are completely unchanged against probes. I don't know, but I think it sounds reasonable that it stays unchanged against probes. Well David Kim himself said that one reason for this buff is to improve widow mine drops. It was easily defendable and a niche strategy even when mines oneshot probes at a full 1.75 radius.
I Really doubt that the WM buff will make it. It would do as much damage as a Storm drop -- but at 5 minutes instead of 11 minutes. Would be stupidly broken.
|
On February 19 2014 22:49 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 21:29 Bagi wrote:On February 19 2014 19:26 TW wrote:If it just applies to the main radius then widow mines are completely unchanged against probes. I don't know, but I think it sounds reasonable that it stays unchanged against probes. Well David Kim himself said that one reason for this buff is to improve widow mine drops. It was easily defendable and a niche strategy even when mines oneshot probes at a full 1.75 radius. I Really doubt that the WM buff will make it. It would do as much damage as a Storm drop -- but at 5 minutes instead of 11 minutes. Would be stupidly broken.
Widow mine drops are nothing like storm drops.
Didn't you people play the game at all between HOTS release and 2.0.1.2?
|
On February 19 2014 22:49 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 21:29 Bagi wrote:On February 19 2014 19:26 TW wrote:If it just applies to the main radius then widow mines are completely unchanged against probes. I don't know, but I think it sounds reasonable that it stays unchanged against probes. Well David Kim himself said that one reason for this buff is to improve widow mine drops. It was easily defendable and a niche strategy even when mines oneshot probes at a full 1.75 radius. I Really doubt that the WM buff will make it. It would do as much damage as a Storm drop -- but at 5 minutes instead of 11 minutes. Would be stupidly broken.
No - it's be exactly the same as at release when Mines were perfectly fine vs toss. They got nerfed because TvZ got 'stale', not because gold tosses couldn't respond to mine drops within 8 seconds.
|
Widow mine drops would be exactly the same as before they nerfed the AOE radius, meaning if you don't pull your probes you will actually take damage(5 kills maybe? instead of the 2/3 you get if you're lucky nowadays). You have like twice the time to pull your workers compared to a storm drop, the aoe radius is way smaller. So no nothing like storm drop, which is normal as it costs less and comes sooner and is lower down the tech tree. Don't know how it can be called "stupidly broken".
I think it will be really strong against early speedlot timings and force detection. What remains to be seen is if even with detection the mines will go off and/or tank enough damage to be worth their cost.
|
On February 19 2014 22:58 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 22:49 Salient wrote:On February 19 2014 21:29 Bagi wrote:On February 19 2014 19:26 TW wrote:If it just applies to the main radius then widow mines are completely unchanged against probes. I don't know, but I think it sounds reasonable that it stays unchanged against probes. Well David Kim himself said that one reason for this buff is to improve widow mine drops. It was easily defendable and a niche strategy even when mines oneshot probes at a full 1.75 radius. I Really doubt that the WM buff will make it. It would do as much damage as a Storm drop -- but at 5 minutes instead of 11 minutes. Would be stupidly broken. No - it's be exactly the same as at release when Mines were perfectly fine vs toss. They got nerfed because TvZ got 'stale', not because gold tosses couldn't respond to mine drops within 8 seconds.
Reading some of the discussion about these changes can be so funny.
"No, you can't nerf MsC vision by -1, it will destabilize PvP, leaving it in complete ruins!"
"This widow mine buff is literally giving terran storm drops at 5 minutes."
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
"This widow mine buff is literally giving terran storm drops at 5 minutes."
The most funny thing is that you have 3,5 seconds before they will kill all of your probes just because it takes 3 minutes to burrow.
Also Oracle at 5th minute is the reason why Widow Mine must fit that role as cheesy harasser, maybe less effective, but still good answer
|
On February 19 2014 23:02 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 22:58 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 19 2014 22:49 Salient wrote:On February 19 2014 21:29 Bagi wrote:On February 19 2014 19:26 TW wrote:If it just applies to the main radius then widow mines are completely unchanged against probes. I don't know, but I think it sounds reasonable that it stays unchanged against probes. Well David Kim himself said that one reason for this buff is to improve widow mine drops. It was easily defendable and a niche strategy even when mines oneshot probes at a full 1.75 radius. I Really doubt that the WM buff will make it. It would do as much damage as a Storm drop -- but at 5 minutes instead of 11 minutes. Would be stupidly broken. No - it's be exactly the same as at release when Mines were perfectly fine vs toss. They got nerfed because TvZ got 'stale', not because gold tosses couldn't respond to mine drops within 8 seconds. Reading some of the discussion about these changes can be so funny. "No, you can't nerf MsC vision by -1, it will destabilize PvP, leaving it in complete ruins!" "This widow mine buff is literally giving terran storm drops at 5 minutes."
"OMG, this 2 month period where a handful of established Protoss are winning consistently is worse than the Broodlord/Infestor period."
"MSC should have no vision whatsoever!"
I agree it is pretty silly.
|
On February 19 2014 23:30 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 23:02 Grumbels wrote:On February 19 2014 22:58 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 19 2014 22:49 Salient wrote:On February 19 2014 21:29 Bagi wrote:On February 19 2014 19:26 TW wrote:If it just applies to the main radius then widow mines are completely unchanged against probes. I don't know, but I think it sounds reasonable that it stays unchanged against probes. Well David Kim himself said that one reason for this buff is to improve widow mine drops. It was easily defendable and a niche strategy even when mines oneshot probes at a full 1.75 radius. I Really doubt that the WM buff will make it. It would do as much damage as a Storm drop -- but at 5 minutes instead of 11 minutes. Would be stupidly broken. No - it's be exactly the same as at release when Mines were perfectly fine vs toss. They got nerfed because TvZ got 'stale', not because gold tosses couldn't respond to mine drops within 8 seconds. Reading some of the discussion about these changes can be so funny. "No, you can't nerf MsC vision by -1, it will destabilize PvP, leaving it in complete ruins!" "This widow mine buff is literally giving terran storm drops at 5 minutes." "OMG, this 2 month period where a handful of established Protoss are winning consistently is worse than the Broodlord/Infestor period." "MSC should have no vision whatsoever!" I agree it is pretty silly.
Good thing no one is saying that then.
|
So back to the original question, has anyone tested how the widow mine splash actually works on the test map?
|
On February 20 2014 00:18 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 23:30 Wingblade wrote:On February 19 2014 23:02 Grumbels wrote:On February 19 2014 22:58 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 19 2014 22:49 Salient wrote:On February 19 2014 21:29 Bagi wrote:On February 19 2014 19:26 TW wrote:If it just applies to the main radius then widow mines are completely unchanged against probes. I don't know, but I think it sounds reasonable that it stays unchanged against probes. Well David Kim himself said that one reason for this buff is to improve widow mine drops. It was easily defendable and a niche strategy even when mines oneshot probes at a full 1.75 radius. I Really doubt that the WM buff will make it. It would do as much damage as a Storm drop -- but at 5 minutes instead of 11 minutes. Would be stupidly broken. No - it's be exactly the same as at release when Mines were perfectly fine vs toss. They got nerfed because TvZ got 'stale', not because gold tosses couldn't respond to mine drops within 8 seconds. Reading some of the discussion about these changes can be so funny. "No, you can't nerf MsC vision by -1, it will destabilize PvP, leaving it in complete ruins!" "This widow mine buff is literally giving terran storm drops at 5 minutes." "OMG, this 2 month period where a handful of established Protoss are winning consistently is worse than the Broodlord/Infestor period." "MSC should have no vision whatsoever!" I agree it is pretty silly. Good thing no one is saying that then.
Hyperbole in balance discussions is a grand tradition that we must upkeep. And the mocking the hyperbolic comments. It is the circle of life.
|
People need to stop whining about the Protoss nerfs. Am I doing it right?
|
Maybe I'm a little off here, but I don't remember this kind of moaning when BL/Infestor was nerfed, most zerg players seemed pretty ok with it. The blink nerf is harsh, yes, but unless we want to mutilate map making variety even further we have to look at actual balance.
I don't know, I don't see this breaking anything, and could even unbreak what the MSC broke.
|
On February 20 2014 00:47 plogamer wrote:
People need to stop whining about the Protoss nerfs. Am I doing it right?
Yeah, but I think you can do better. You need some passive agressive comments about Protoss being mechanically easier than other races and maybe complain about the sad zealot. Also cite some professional terrans like Polt losing and claim they just barely were able to be competitive within the meta.
The most important part is to be as passive agressive as possible and provide as little complete information as you can get away with.
|
On February 20 2014 00:57 Squat wrote:
Maybe I'm a little off here, but I don't remember this kind of moaning when BL/Infestor was nerfed, most zerg players seemed pretty ok with it. The blink nerf is harsh, yes, but unless we want to mutilate map making variety even further we have to look at actual balance.
I don't know, I don't see this breaking anything, and could even unbreak what the MSC broke.
There was quite an uproar in those HotS beta threads, not as harsh as these changes now, but there are several things to consider:
-) it was a beta, people are probably more willing to experiment during a such a periode
-) it was a beta, it didn't affect as many people
-) they actually increased the range of fungal from 8 to 10; there were quite some heated arguments that some Ts/Ps considered that a buff (even some proplayer posted a video about how it was ridiculous and Zerg lategame got even stronger)
-) they released changes afterwards specifically tagged to provide compensation for the weaker Infestors (Mutalisk buffs, Ultralisk buff)
I think it does break blink play as we know it in all matchups. I think even just going to 12seconds would be a huge change, just considering how often we see stalkers waiting for the cooldown to finish to blink out of a base again.
|
On February 20 2014 01:09 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 00:57 Squat wrote:
Maybe I'm a little off here, but I don't remember this kind of moaning when BL/Infestor was nerfed, most zerg players seemed pretty ok with it. The blink nerf is harsh, yes, but unless we want to mutilate map making variety even further we have to look at actual balance.
I don't know, I don't see this breaking anything, and could even unbreak what the MSC broke. There was quite an uproar in those HotS beta threads, not as harsh as these changes now, but there are several things to consider: -) it was a beta, people are probably more willing to experiment during a such a periode -) it was a beta, it didn't affect as many people -) they actually increased the range of fungal from 8 to 10; there were quite some heated arguments that some Ts/Ps considered that a buff (even some proplayer posted a video about how it was ridiculous and Zerg lategame got even stronger) -) they released changes afterwards specifically tagged to provide compensation for the weaker Infestors (Mutalisk buffs, Ultralisk buff) I think it does break blink play as we know it in all matchups. I think even just going to 12seconds would be a huge change, just considering how often we see stalkers waiting for the cooldown to finish to blink out of a base again.
Fairly sure they won't need to change the cooldown if they just implement MSC with 9 sight; not to mention Blink openings will be weaker if Mine drops are relevant again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
