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I love these compilation posts! Thanks for doing this!
qxc is right about the elephant in the room...
I imagine a sort of weird scenario where the Blizz offices are besieged by swarm host. They're so busy looking for ways to not deal with swarm host directly that they lose half their staff of interns. Eventually they end up down to a handful of designers/balance devs barricaded in a room with a sign that says, "Do Not Disturb: Swarm Host Design Session in Progress" while little critters spit dutifully at the door.
Actually, come to think of it, that's probably the dev teams feelings about the SC2 general forums. :D
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What'll happen if Swarm Hosts get structure status when burrowed (like hellbat bio status)? It's still risky to move detection close enough to see them but the tempest change would benefit from this.
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On February 13 2014 08:02 Ctone23 wrote:
I haven't seen anyone mention it, and quite frankly i'm struggling to think of a proper way to introduce it, but..
What if the swarm host was an energy unit? Meaning, it would cost energy to spawn locusts?
Terrible idea?
Then you could feedback them, which would probably be OP.
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On February 13 2014 12:35 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 08:02 Ctone23 wrote:
I haven't seen anyone mention it, and quite frankly i'm struggling to think of a proper way to introduce it, but..
What if the swarm host was an energy unit? Meaning, it would cost energy to spawn locusts?
Terrible idea? Then you could feedback them, which would probably be OP.
What if it had an HP version of Consume? I could see that working depending on how the the spawn locust ability functioned.
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Regarding Swarm Hosts, there was an interesting idea that I saw in another thread:
On February 11 2014 02:28 BronzeKnee wrote:
Instead of having Swarmhosts spawn 2 ranged Locusts every 25 seconds, have a Swarmhost spawn 6-8 melee Broodlings (the same ones that come out of a kill Zerg building with the rough the same stats including fast movespeed) every 10 seconds. However the Broodlings have a timer of ~5 seconds (upgradable to ~8 seconds).
This means that Swarmhosts are much more powerful in small numbers and allow Zerg to tech to late game. But it also means that mass Swarmhosts don't work since Broodling can't walk through each other, and the low life timer means that most of the Broodlings from a mass of Swarmhosts just die off before they do any damage. Thus, once they reach a certain number they reach maximum efficiency and additional Swarmhosts would do literally nothing.
Finally, it means that Swarmhosts aren't really a siege unit anymore, because their range would be reduced. But they'd be really good for splitting up the attention of your opponent and as a harassment unit to harass expansions, and a few Swarmhosts could replace Zerglings for armies.
Proposed numbers may need to be tweaked, but the general idea looks like something worthy of consideration and testing.
Personally, I dislike the very idea of units that spawn other units for free. But if we have to keep SH in the game (at least until LotV), then I would rather see something like this.
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Vatican City State431 Posts
Widow mines are lame. I don't think they will be usefull in TvP expect maybe early game. Why do Terran always get useless buffs? First they buff Siege Tanks and now Widow mines...Somebody should tell DK: Mech doesn't work in TvP!
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The game is impossible to fix with one patch, sadly it will take an expansion pack to fix it, and maybe this time they will listen to ppl a little more carefully.
Seriously, they wanted to fix blord infestor spine turtle.. and make games more action packed.
They made protoss have ultimate defense where its always better to macro home and hit a mid game timing or late game ultimate army against them.
They gave protoss and terran ultimate tools against broodlords, making broodlord the worst gaz unit in the game right now. Never cost efficient unless you infinity ahead, swarm host always better( Unless fightning max siege tank or max colo,, but yea..no1 does that).
They also made protoss turtle and terran mech turtle insane good - especially with the now useless broodlord that was previously zergs only option to break a fortified toss and terran.
So, the fix those issues, they created a huge ass long range siege unit with the potential to be more cost efficient than anything before the more you drag the game. The longer the game is with swarm host, the better chances you have of winning, since other players will lose money all game long vs free locust.
Couple the fact that swarm hosts are the only solution to passive turtle players and races such as protoss and terran have excellent harass that abuse swarm host immobility alot. Seriously, if you move with your swarm host army too early, you get pulled appart by mass zlot warp in and pylon warp ins. Maybe even a counter attack/recall move.
Why did they even give other races so strong counters to broodlords and then make a unit that fill the same role but is even stronger at it and creates even longer games!.
It makes no sense and totally destroyed the game. Zerg needs another strong support unit for their armies before swarm host gets nerfed. A unit kind of like the colosus or siege tank.
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Poland3748 Posts
Warp in could make longer the further you are from your warpgates.
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On February 13 2014 13:17 MyrMindservant wrote:Regarding Swarm Hosts, there was an interesting idea that I saw in another thread: Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 02:28 BronzeKnee wrote:
Instead of having Swarmhosts spawn 2 ranged Locusts every 25 seconds, have a Swarmhost spawn 6-8 melee Broodlings (the same ones that come out of a kill Zerg building with the rough the same stats including fast movespeed) every 10 seconds. However the Broodlings have a timer of ~5 seconds (upgradable to ~8 seconds).
This means that Swarmhosts are much more powerful in small numbers and allow Zerg to tech to late game. But it also means that mass Swarmhosts don't work since Broodling can't walk through each other, and the low life timer means that most of the Broodlings from a mass of Swarmhosts just die off before they do any damage. Thus, once they reach a certain number they reach maximum efficiency and additional Swarmhosts would do literally nothing.
Finally, it means that Swarmhosts aren't really a siege unit anymore, because their range would be reduced. But they'd be really good for splitting up the attention of your opponent and as a harassment unit to harass expansions, and a few Swarmhosts could replace Zerglings for armies. Proposed numbers may need to be tweaked, but the general idea looks like something worthy of consideration and testing. Personally, I dislike the very idea of units that spawn other units for free. But if we have to keep SH in the game (at least until LotV), then I would rather see something like this.
At first I thought that that was what SH was supposed to be.. But I think that Blizz wants/wanted for the SH to be the "siege-breaker" unit, if you know what I mean.. You know - a very ranged unit
I personally find an error in the unit's high-cost, and the way how the unit itself works.. 5 SHs won't do a thing.. 20 are almost unapproachable.. SHs without the EL upgrade are totally incapable of denfending themselves.. SHs with the EL upgrade are nearly untouchable..
I mean IDK - IMO the EL upgrade is by far the most ridiculous thing within the game.. But the mere fact that Zergs are using static D in order to defend them - says something about how expensive they really actually are.. And the unit itself ATM is a Lair-Tech Hive unit.. I personally don't like that TBH, add the EL upgrade that always is required for another 200/200, and that means you're in a complete all-in if you do it on Lair tech
So yah - I think make the unit cheaper and remove the upgrade - see how it goes.. The problem then remains to be fixed is siege-breaking - then I say the following make abduct have more casting range - i.e. - Vipers being the stalemate-initiator instead.. SHs without the EL upgrade will surely HAVE TO be hit&run unit.. Cause they have a huge downtime in their locust waves
OR - what you just said with the SHs being the "Broodling-Houses" would work well, but then buff the Abduct range of the Vipers.. I actually think that the "Corruptor" change everyone talks about is actually a problem of Viper having a relatively small abduct range (9 isn't that big TBH), or maybe abduct should still be 9 range, but it's casting range to be from further away - i.e. - Viper casts it from 12 range, but brings the "victim" 3 range in front of him or sth like that
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EDIT: I also find an error with the Tempest vs Massive Air bonus as well.. If it was 30 + 30 instead of 30 + 50 = then we'd probably see some Broodlords in PvZ as well.. The other matchups would benefit massively from that change IMO too, with only one downside: That being it will require one more shot to kill a Colossus..
But yah:
1 - Broodlords 5-shot instead of 4 (shooting at 275HP with 60 damage instead of with 80), or was it that BL has 225HP ? - that means that it will get 4-shot instead of 3 - even better.. 
2 - BCs 10-shot instead of 7 (shooting at 500hp, or was it 550 ?)
3 - Carriers 8 - shot, instead of 6 (450HP)
4 - Tempests themselves - same as Carrier - 8 shot instead of 6 (same = 450HP total as Carrier)
The downside: Colossus 6-shot instead of 5-shot (350HP - i.e. - 150SP 200HP).. Think I'd take that any day in the weak TBH
EDIT again: almost forgot: Mothership itself: 800hp total (400 + 400) - would be 14 shot instead of 10
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On February 12 2014 04:19 DinoMight wrote:
I love how a lot of the pro players and Artosis on his show Meta mention the maps as one of the biggest reasons blink allins are so good right now.
It's such an obvious issue.. every single map is REALLY good for Blink right now except Habitation Station.
Yes this is true but do we really want to limit the map makers in a way they always need to be careful about not making map too good for blink? It is better to address the blink directly.
In general I think Blizzard should always target the unit or ability that is actually the problem. The biggest example is SH. They are trying to go around the issue instead of doing some changes to SH.
I think SH would be much more fun if they were made more like a siege unit (deal more damage, have less range and HP and move faster off creep so they can't stay long on one location and be protected by static defense like they can now.) They should be in terran or protoss face, off creep, so they can deal damage and then retreat.
Right now they are passive-defensive boring unit that requires 0 APM to make work. You can (with the help of creep and enduring locust) spawn locusts from afar and also protect them by "static" defense like spines and spores.
For example, nydus doesn't need creep to be spawned so imagine locusts going through nydus, doing damage on one side of the map and then evacuating before they get destroyed. It would be much more entertaining to watch than what we have now.
So basically:
1. more damage
2. limited range
3. less HP
4. faster movement off creep
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On February 13 2014 20:53 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 04:19 DinoMight wrote:
I love how a lot of the pro players and Artosis on his show Meta mention the maps as one of the biggest reasons blink allins are so good right now.
It's such an obvious issue.. every single map is REALLY good for Blink right now except Habitation Station. Yes this is true but do we really want to limit the map makers in a way they always need to be careful about not making map too good for blink? It is better to address the blink directly. In general I think Blizzard should always target the unit or ability that is actually the problem. The biggest example is SH. They are trying to go around the issue instead of doing some changes to SH. I think SH would be much more fun if they were made more like a siege unit (deal more damage, have less range and HP and move faster off creep so they can't stay long on one location and be protected by static defense like they can now.) They should be in terran or protoss face, off creep, so they can deal damage and then retreat. Right now they are passive-defensive boring unit that requires 0 APM to make work. You can (with the help of creep and enduring locust) spawn locusts from afar and also protect them by "static" defense like spines and spores. For example, nydus doesn't need creep to be spawned so imagine locusts going through nydus, doing damage on one side of the map and then evacuating before they get destroyed. It would be much more entertaining to watch than what we have now. So basically: 1. more damage 2. limited range 3. less HP 4. faster movement off creep
True that SHs are a "very easy" to use unit.. Unless you really want to be really effective with them - spreading, spreading locusts, using better rallies (i.e. - rally far behind your target so you'd preserve the parallel movement of locusts as far as possible) of locust waves, e.t.c..
BUT - everyone overlooks the Problem of the unit itself.. It's a Lair-unit which requires a massive investment, thus making it a Lair-unit on Hive-tech..
Both issues can actually be solved very easy by removing the EL upgrade and making the unit cheaper IMO.. The problem is - I suspect that that would be enough for late-game TBH.. So Zerg should get a buff somewhere else (I suggest Viper abduct range as best)
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On February 13 2014 10:48 Forestwind1 wrote:
What'll happen if Swarm Hosts get structure status when burrowed (like hellbat bio status)? It's still risky to move detection close enough to see them but the tempest change would benefit from this. I like this, actually. Would make them vulnerable to banelings as well, which could give Z another option for breaking the SHvsSH line.
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What about making the locusts into mini-banelings rather than mini-roaches? That way you can use them to assault an area, but they wouldn't be as good for defending space, since after a small engagement you wouldn't have any locusts left. Splash damage + some high HP units split to tank could then be used to destroy a wave quickly, before you counter attack?
Or just buff SH by making the locusts flying and able to attack flying, like in the campaign. That way you won't get 2 hour long games anymore since rather than just slowly pushing the SH will just win rapidly! (Note this isn't a serious suggestion, but it does prevent long drawn-out draws!)
A slightly more radical solution would be to make the SwarmHost fire out eggs at a large range, which then hatch into AoE damaging mini-locust swarms, doing constant low-level damage to anything inside for a duration. This would let them siege a ranged target, but wouldn't make them powerful when massed.
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On February 12 2014 15:41 ROOTiaguz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 14:08 BronzeKnee wrote:
I really get the feeling that is TeamLiquid's passive aggressive way to say to Blizzard, hey some of your ideas are really, really dumb.
I'd prefer if they came out and just said that, but I understand. I have to sugarcoat things and play politics at my job too. I'd feel it's more team liquid's way of making more content so people will click it and comment and such. After all this is a Starcraft 2 website.
You may be forgetting that TL typically doesn't allow or encourage balance discussions. This definitely goes against that grain, in way is in Blizzard's face.
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On February 13 2014 13:17 MyrMindservant wrote:Regarding Swarm Hosts, there was an interesting idea that I saw in another thread: Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 02:28 BronzeKnee wrote:
Instead of having Swarmhosts spawn 2 ranged Locusts every 25 seconds, have a Swarmhost spawn 6-8 melee Broodlings (the same ones that come out of a kill Zerg building with the rough the same stats including fast movespeed) every 10 seconds. However the Broodlings have a timer of ~5 seconds (upgradable to ~8 seconds).
This means that Swarmhosts are much more powerful in small numbers and allow Zerg to tech to late game. But it also means that mass Swarmhosts don't work since Broodling can't walk through each other, and the low life timer means that most of the Broodlings from a mass of Swarmhosts just die off before they do any damage. Thus, once they reach a certain number they reach maximum efficiency and additional Swarmhosts would do literally nothing.
Finally, it means that Swarmhosts aren't really a siege unit anymore, because their range would be reduced. But they'd be really good for splitting up the attention of your opponent and as a harassment unit to harass expansions, and a few Swarmhosts could replace Zerglings for armies. Proposed numbers may need to be tweaked, but the general idea looks like something worthy of consideration and testing. Personally, I dislike the very idea of units that spawn other units for free. But if we have to keep SH in the game (at least until LotV), then I would rather see something like this.
I've been saying that for too long now!
I said it in the beta forums.
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I hope Blizzard does realize that the Blink nerf is a 50% INCREASE in cooldown, not just simply 5 seconds.
In the context of "slight adjustments", think about that Blizzard, think about that...
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 13 2014 12:46 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 12:35 -NegativeZero- wrote:On February 13 2014 08:02 Ctone23 wrote:
I haven't seen anyone mention it, and quite frankly i'm struggling to think of a proper way to introduce it, but..
What if the swarm host was an energy unit? Meaning, it would cost energy to spawn locusts?
Terrible idea? Then you could feedback them, which would probably be OP. What if it had an HP version of Consume? I could see that working depending on how the the spawn locust ability functioned.
I dont even think itd be a bad thing if they would be vulnerable to emp or feedback, tough to get in range (and ghosts could use a come back late game tvz, fun unit).
Having each wave of locust drain mana or having a constant drain a la cloak seems like a cool idea tbh. If its too big a nerf you could add something like a self cannibalizing consume where you trade hp for mana (like you said I think).
It would make whether to send a wave at least somewhat of a decision. Hitting the right mana cost will be tricky but doable.
Could also add some additional ability to them so zergs can have some fun (say what you want about old infestors but Ithey were a ton of fun to use... same as defilers, utility is fun). Maybe some kind of overload ability that temporarily increases amoint or strength of locusts but at the price of ... big mana drain, hp, super long cooldown... stuff like this. Like basically an option to burst an area down but then your sh are out of the fight for a while.
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It's been 4 years, and they still haven't got the balance of the game yet. Terran are still under powered to a point where they are handicapped at IEM right now. No question, Blizzard is working hard, but they just need to make minor adjustments. Limiting MC vision almost 40% is a big deal in gameplay. As well terran need other units to actually become more functional like making thors useful again. they have stop nerfing so severely to units that make the gameplay interesting. Slight nerfs are probably 5-10% NERFS. Severe nerfs are downgrades up to 30-50%. Remember how they limited the blue flame hellion damage so severely, it the unit became a liability on the field of battle. I just hope they get the balance of this game right eventually and make more units useful.
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On February 14 2014 13:16 chatuka wrote:
It's been 4 years, and they still haven't got the balance of the game yet. Terran are still under powered
What?
4 years and Terran are *STILL* underpowered?
What?
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EPT
