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On February 13 2014 21:07 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 20:53 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 12 2014 04:19 DinoMight wrote:
I love how a lot of the pro players and Artosis on his show Meta mention the maps as one of the biggest reasons blink allins are so good right now.
It's such an obvious issue.. every single map is REALLY good for Blink right now except Habitation Station. Yes this is true but do we really want to limit the map makers in a way they always need to be careful about not making map too good for blink? It is better to address the blink directly. In general I think Blizzard should always target the unit or ability that is actually the problem. The biggest example is SH. They are trying to go around the issue instead of doing some changes to SH. I think SH would be much more fun if they were made more like a siege unit (deal more damage, have less range and HP and move faster off creep so they can't stay long on one location and be protected by static defense like they can now.) They should be in terran or protoss face, off creep, so they can deal damage and then retreat. Right now they are passive-defensive boring unit that requires 0 APM to make work. You can (with the help of creep and enduring locust) spawn locusts from afar and also protect them by "static" defense like spines and spores. For example, nydus doesn't need creep to be spawned so imagine locusts going through nydus, doing damage on one side of the map and then evacuating before they get destroyed. It would be much more entertaining to watch than what we have now. So basically: 1. more damage 2. limited range 3. less HP 4. faster movement off creep True that SHs are a "very easy" to use unit.. Unless you really want to be really effective with them - spreading, spreading locusts, using better rallies (i.e. - rally far behind your target so you'd preserve the parallel movement of locusts as far as possible) of locust waves, e.t.c.. BUT - everyone overlooks the Problem of the unit itself.. It's a Lair-unit which requires a massive investment, thus making it a Lair-unit on Hive-tech.. Both issues can actually be solved very easy by removing the EL upgrade and making the unit cheaper IMO.. The problem is - I suspect that that would be enough for late-game TBH.. So Zerg should get a buff somewhere else (I suggest Viper abduct range as best)
Me and many other have complained about this back in the beta.
we were expecting a unit that can apply pressure, I was expecting a unit that would kinda feel like a marine tank composition, with hit and trade and transition out eventually.
but SH is too weak in low number, this means we either have to just skip SH entirely or get a brunch of them and babysit them.
This is the biggest problem I have with it and still is.
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On February 14 2014 10:26 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 12:46 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 13 2014 12:35 -NegativeZero- wrote:On February 13 2014 08:02 Ctone23 wrote:
I haven't seen anyone mention it, and quite frankly i'm struggling to think of a proper way to introduce it, but..
What if the swarm host was an energy unit? Meaning, it would cost energy to spawn locusts?
Terrible idea? Then you could feedback them, which would probably be OP. What if it had an HP version of Consume? I could see that working depending on how the the spawn locust ability functioned. I dont even think itd be a bad thing if they would be vulnerable to emp or feedback, tough to get in range (and ghosts could use a come back late game tvz, fun unit). Having each wave of locust drain mana or having a constant drain a la cloak seems like a cool idea tbh. If its too big a nerf you could add something like a self cannibalizing consume where you trade hp for mana (like you said I think). It would make whether to send a wave at least somewhat of a decision. Hitting the right mana cost will be tricky but doable. Could also add some additional ability to them so zergs can have some fun (say what you want about old infestors but Ithey were a ton of fun to use... same as defilers, utility is fun). Maybe some kind of overload ability that temporarily increases amoint or strength of locusts but at the price of ... big mana drain, hp, super long cooldown... stuff like this. Like basically an option to burst an area down but then your sh are out of the fight for a while.
sorry off topic but omg its jinro its been forever since ive seen this name, miss you bro you were the first stream i ever watched and got me into terran. dang ever thought of streaming again? doesnt even have to be HOTS it could be BW hearthstone, starbow, w.e. hots would be cool but it would just be sick to see you stream again
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For the first time ever, I turned off GSL after watching Soulkey SH turtling style. I don't know how the game ended but I don't care.
In fact, I am not gonna watch any PvZ until they fix SH.
This is how SC2 is losing viewership. Just look at the chat, I am not alone.
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this unit has ruined the game for me. That, and pvp.
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BOTH SH and WM are very good units at a level of design..
Problem is that they were released in the game as they came from the day1 in beta - i.e. - nothing was tweaked or experimented.. - Blizz never tried to do a better execution/implementation regarding those two
The last change (or couple of changes) to WM making it versatile unit instead of just vs Zerg only - is just one proof of that fact
In general as a whole - think it's a bad design "idea" to make units specialized vs only one race.. Such as the case of WM being only vs Zerg
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On February 15 2014 00:25 VArsovskiSC wrote:
BOTH SH and WM are very good units at a level of design..
Problem is that they were released in the game as they came from the day1 in beta - i.e. - nothing was tweaked or experimented.. - Blizz never tried to do a better execution/implementation regarding those two
The last change (or couple of changes) to WM making it versatile unit instead of just vs Zerg only - is just one proof of that fact
In general as a whole - think it's a bad design "idea" to make units specialized vs only one race.. Such as the case of WM being only vs Zerg
You're a bit off. The WM was changed more than any other unit in the last 1-2 years.
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Even Terran players commenting on the absurdity of SwarmHosts, makes me happy and much more respect for them in general. MMA is kindof dissapointing, still complaining about Oracle speed? Really? I think there are other issues with Terran that should be addressed, because the Protoss race actually functioning like a complete race, with multiple viable strategies for each matchup is not a problem, but something that Blizzard should be striving for with each race.
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Just wanted to give props to LiquidHero for highlighting one of main issues making TvP a rofl-fest.
As disappointed as I am to see Innovation get 3-0'd - this is exactly what Blizzard needs to see.
Let's examine exactly what happened / happens (over and over again on the NA masters + ladder).
1 base aggressive options for Terran: - Gas first opener - (Widowmine drops / Helion Drops / Cloak Banshee)
Protoss scouting / reaction:
Probe scout gas first - (Forge / cannon at both mineral into robo/macro up counters all 3)
1 base aggressive options for Protoss (Just fully ignoring old school 4 gates) - Double gas 3 on each.
Proxy Oracle / Proxy Twilight into Blink / Proxy Twilight into DT / Proxy Robo into 3 gate immortal bust.
Terran scouting / reaction:
To counter DT / Oracle - Ebay needed (if you call letting 2 oracles keep you in your base while the protoss gets a fast third a counter)
To counter Blink/Immo bunkers in the main / CC inside (if you can call being contained on 1 base a counter - only reason it's the "counter" is because it's the only way not to die)
So you have a 50/50 chance of living and being behind vs. 1 base aggression assuming you can't find the proxy soon enough (good luck on most of the large maps) and let's be honest - even if you scout blink coming you still have a 50/50 chance of dying to it with EQUAL mechanics. If the protoss has as good or better micro you will certainly lose.
Now let's forget about proxy or 1 base - assume you open reaper and you find the Twilight with an expo... what does this really mean? Well - could be 2 base blink.. could be DT /Warp Prism...could be fast HT with double forge into a 2 base all in...even an 8 gate with fast 2/2..or if the protoss is smart (LiquidHero) could be a fake into macroing up.
So let's recap - all above being considered - what exactly does the protoss have to worry about in terms of aggression that MSC / 1 gate can't hold? Absolutely nothing that can't be scouted by the initial probe scout (11/11 etc). Yet the Terran has to examine a ridiculous sum of potential threats - guess correctly and micro perfectly just to get into the mid to late game.. I'm sorry but this is really just ridiculous and I think even protoss players would agree that there is absolutely nothing "impressive" or to marvel at watching games like this.. who really wants to see a 3-0 - 30 minute series where each game was decided (the last game I will say was not related to this) not by impressive multitask - micro - macro / decision making / strategy and tactics but by absolute nonsense. The fact that a NA player with platinum mechanics can get to GM as protoss says nothing about "balance" per say but be totally honest with yourself, what Hero did in game 1 happens on ladder every day by platinum level players.. really look at the game and outside of the "genius move" that made him go blink vs DT when he saw the Ebay drop.. what else went on there that was even remotely impressive? I'm sorry but you can change MSC spells / fiddle around with whatever else you want until you fix this issue the match-up is going to be this way. Not a pro here by any means (casual mid masters player) but this doesn't take a pro to realize.
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On February 15 2014 16:13 ArTiFaKs wrote:
Even Terran players commenting on the absurdity of SwarmHosts, makes me happy and much more respect for them in general. MMA is kindof dissapointing, still complaining about Oracle speed? Really? I think there are other issues with Terran that should be addressed, because the Protoss race actually functioning like a complete race, with multiple viable strategies for each matchup is not a problem, but something that Blizzard should be striving for with each race.
The ironic thing is, when you describe Protoss as a complete race and Blizzard should strive that for other races. They had that for Terran, but one unit basically changed that, MSC. You can't just look at a race in a vacuum, it is the counters that determine how good tech trees and builds are.
Let say they give bio a buff that makes it so bio can take out a Nexus even through Nexus cannon. Sure, that would give Terrans more options to be aggressive, but then you are back to strong one where the Protoss has tough time defending.
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There is also another absurd about this matchup and generally about Terrans.
Terran is supposed to show their multitasking, droping on every side, pushing with their main army at the same time etc.
But if they just for a second dont look at their army, few storms land, and the game is lost.
This happend during Rain vs Polt. It is also true while playing vs Zerg, P can recall, T cant.
That is why playing T is so frustrating.
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On February 17 2014 03:30 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 16:13 ArTiFaKs wrote:
Even Terran players commenting on the absurdity of SwarmHosts, makes me happy and much more respect for them in general. MMA is kindof dissapointing, still complaining about Oracle speed? Really? I think there are other issues with Terran that should be addressed, because the Protoss race actually functioning like a complete race, with multiple viable strategies for each matchup is not a problem, but something that Blizzard should be striving for with each race. The ironic thing is, when you describe Protoss as a complete race and Blizzard should strive that for other races. They had that for Terran, but one unit basically changed that, MSC. You can't just look at a race in a vacuum, it is the counters that determine how good tech trees and builds are. Let say they give bio a buff that makes it so bio can take out a Nexus even through Nexus cannon. Sure, that would give Terrans more options to be aggressive, but then you are back to strong one where the Protoss has tough time defending.
Really just goes to show that saying one race is "more complete" is complete hogwash. A race is only complete if it's harmonizes with all 3 races with maximal strategies from both sides, otherwise it is far from complete. A dominant relationship is not a more wholesome relationship.
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On February 17 2014 03:58 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 03:30 vthree wrote:On February 15 2014 16:13 ArTiFaKs wrote:
Even Terran players commenting on the absurdity of SwarmHosts, makes me happy and much more respect for them in general. MMA is kindof dissapointing, still complaining about Oracle speed? Really? I think there are other issues with Terran that should be addressed, because the Protoss race actually functioning like a complete race, with multiple viable strategies for each matchup is not a problem, but something that Blizzard should be striving for with each race. The ironic thing is, when you describe Protoss as a complete race and Blizzard should strive that for other races. They had that for Terran, but one unit basically changed that, MSC. You can't just look at a race in a vacuum, it is the counters that determine how good tech trees and builds are. Let say they give bio a buff that makes it so bio can take out a Nexus even through Nexus cannon. Sure, that would give Terrans more options to be aggressive, but then you are back to strong one where the Protoss has tough time defending. Really just goes to show that saying one race is "more complete" is complete hogwash. A race is only complete if it's harmonizes with all 3 races with maximal strategies from both sides, otherwise it is far from complete. A dominant relationship is not a more wholesome relationship.
People always call the strongest race at the moment the "most complete" race. Then you change, say, marine damage by 2% and all of a sudden terran becomes the "best designed" race, and so on.
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On February 17 2014 02:52 DomeGetta wrote:
Just wanted to give props to LiquidHero for highlighting one of main issues making TvP a rofl-fest.
As disappointed as I am to see Innovation get 3-0'd - this is exactly what Blizzard needs to see.
Let's examine exactly what happened / happens (over and over again on the NA masters + ladder).
1 base aggressive options for Terran: - Gas first opener - (Widowmine drops / Helion Drops / Cloak Banshee)
Protoss scouting / reaction:
Probe scout gas first - (Forge / cannon at both mineral into robo/macro up counters all 3)
1 base aggressive options for Protoss (Just fully ignoring old school 4 gates) - Double gas 3 on each.
Proxy Oracle / Proxy Twilight into Blink / Proxy Twilight into DT / Proxy Robo into 3 gate immortal bust.
Terran scouting / reaction:
To counter DT / Oracle - Ebay needed (if you call letting 2 oracles keep you in your base while the protoss gets a fast third a counter)
To counter Blink/Immo bunkers in the main / CC inside (if you can call being contained on 1 base a counter - only reason it's the "counter" is because it's the only way not to die)
So you have a 50/50 chance of living and being behind vs. 1 base aggression assuming you can't find the proxy soon enough (good luck on most of the large maps) and let's be honest - even if you scout blink coming you still have a 50/50 chance of dying to it with EQUAL mechanics. If the protoss has as good or better micro you will certainly lose.
Now let's forget about proxy or 1 base - assume you open reaper and you find the Twilight with an expo... what does this really mean? Well - could be 2 base blink.. could be DT /Warp Prism...could be fast HT with double forge into a 2 base all in...even an 8 gate with fast 2/2..or if the protoss is smart (LiquidHero) could be a fake into macroing up.
So let's recap - all above being considered - what exactly does the protoss have to worry about in terms of aggression that MSC / 1 gate can't hold? Absolutely nothing that can't be scouted by the initial probe scout (11/11 etc). Yet the Terran has to examine a ridiculous sum of potential threats - guess correctly and micro perfectly just to get into the mid to late game.. I'm sorry but this is really just ridiculous and I think even protoss players would agree that there is absolutely nothing "impressive" or to marvel at watching games like this.. who really wants to see a 3-0 - 30 minute series where each game was decided (the last game I will say was not related to this) not by impressive multitask - micro - macro / decision making / strategy and tactics but by absolute nonsense. The fact that a NA player with platinum mechanics can get to GM as protoss says nothing about "balance" per say but be totally honest with yourself, what Hero did in game 1 happens on ladder every day by platinum level players.. really look at the game and outside of the "genius move" that made him go blink vs DT when he saw the Ebay drop.. what else went on there that was even remotely impressive? I'm sorry but you can change MSC spells / fiddle around with whatever else you want until you fix this issue the match-up is going to be this way. Not a pro here by any means (casual mid masters player) but this doesn't take a pro to realize.
And just to be clear - my opinion this is strictly related to early / early-mid meta game - I'm not talking about mid / late game once both players have established econ/military. I actually feel that that part of the game is in the best place that it has ever been. Both players have an = chance to win in my opinion at that point. I'm also not saying that there is a very obvious answer to fix this - but I think blizzard had to start with the problem and really define what the problem is (which I think I have gotten pretty close above) - I also don't like the idea of modifying core unit abilities because that has greater implications than strictly balancing this equation above - I think the right answer involves lengthening the timings of at least a couple of the above early aggressive options for protoss. The root of the problem is that Terran cannot prepare for all possible combinations of cheese without crippling themselves going into the late game.. changing two or more of the timings so that they hit a minute or two later probably would solve that without messing with late game engagements etc.
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On February 15 2014 16:13 ArTiFaKs wrote:
Even Terran players commenting on the absurdity of SwarmHosts, makes me happy and much more respect for them in general. MMA is kindof dissapointing, still complaining about Oracle speed? Really? I think there are other issues with Terran that should be addressed, because the Protoss race actually functioning like a complete race, with multiple viable strategies for each matchup is not a problem, but something that Blizzard should be striving for with each race.
Like you said, we should be focusing on Terran buffs rather than Protoss nerfs in this scenario given the selective nature of the imba, the early-mid transition of PvT allowing too much greed. There should be a way to directly cancel or negate PO given to Terran but not given for free. What if EMP could negate PO? Too out of the way to realistically integrate into builds? Then maybe the Reaper.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 17 2014 04:21 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 16:13 ArTiFaKs wrote:
Even Terran players commenting on the absurdity of SwarmHosts, makes me happy and much more respect for them in general. MMA is kindof dissapointing, still complaining about Oracle speed? Really? I think there are other issues with Terran that should be addressed, because the Protoss race actually functioning like a complete race, with multiple viable strategies for each matchup is not a problem, but something that Blizzard should be striving for with each race. Like you said, we should be focusing on Terran buffs rather than Protoss nerfs in this scenario given the selective nature of the imba, the early-mid transition of PvT allowing too much greed. There should be a way to directly cancel or negate PO given to Terran but not given for free. What if EMP could negate PO? Too out of the way to realistically integrate into builds? Then maybe the Reaper.
It can, just EMP the MSC before the cast gets off.
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On February 15 2014 00:30 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 00:25 VArsovskiSC wrote:
BOTH SH and WM are very good units at a level of design..
Problem is that they were released in the game as they came from the day1 in beta - i.e. - nothing was tweaked or experimented.. - Blizz never tried to do a better execution/implementation regarding those two
The last change (or couple of changes) to WM making it versatile unit instead of just vs Zerg only - is just one proof of that fact
In general as a whole - think it's a bad design "idea" to make units specialized vs only one race.. Such as the case of WM being only vs Zerg You're a bit off. The WM was changed more than any other unit in the last 1-2 years.
The widow mine is to HotS what the bunker was to WoL. No patch is truly complete without at least 1 change to it in some way.
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Anybody knows when are they going to go live with some fixes?
Why there is absolutely no communication with the community?
Yes they prepared the test map and since then ... silence. No comments, no patch impressions, nothing.
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On February 19 2014 04:30 TW wrote:
Anybody knows when are they going to go live with some fixes?
Why there is absolutely no communication with the community?
Yes they prepared the test map and since then ... silence. No comments, no patch impressions, nothing.
Whoa, you gotta be a bit more patient than that. They just put the test map out a few days ago. This kind of thing does actually take time. Otherwise we get stuck with +Tempests and nerfed Blink.
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I just hate the way blizzard goes about balancing stuff. They take ages to finally release a patch and then they tend to overnerf/overbuff stuff. It would be much better if they released patches faster with smaller changes instead of going from 14 to 9 or from 10 to 15 and stupid shit like that.
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EPT
