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On February 12 2014 22:54 RampancyTW wrote:
It's really frustrating how ignorant all of the T players were with regards to the Tempest change. They all seemed to think that the Tempest was getting a NERF of some sort related to proxy Tempest rushes, when in reality, they're getting buffed despite objections that it will make proxies too strong, with David Kim asking for any shred of evidence that this was actually a problem.
Seriously, how can all three of them miss the mark so completely on that one?
Proxy Oracle into proxy Tempests happens so rarely at high/pro level, you cannot blame them. I have faced this only 2 times out of hundreds of games, and it was probably 2 times the same player.
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On February 12 2014 23:07 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 22:54 RampancyTW wrote:
It's really frustrating how ignorant all of the T players were with regards to the Tempest change. They all seemed to think that the Tempest was getting a NERF of some sort related to proxy Tempest rushes, when in reality, they're getting buffed despite objections that it will make proxies too strong, with David Kim asking for any shred of evidence that this was actually a problem.
Seriously, how can all three of them miss the mark so completely on that one? Proxy Oracle into proxy Tempests happens so rarely at high/pro level, you cannot blame them. I have faced this only 2 times out of hundreds of games, and it was probably 2 times the same player. But why are they commenting on proxy Tempests? That has nothing to do with the buff, and they clearly thought that Tempests were receiving a nerf due to proxy Tempests.
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On February 12 2014 23:14 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 23:07 TheDwf wrote:On February 12 2014 22:54 RampancyTW wrote:
It's really frustrating how ignorant all of the T players were with regards to the Tempest change. They all seemed to think that the Tempest was getting a NERF of some sort related to proxy Tempest rushes, when in reality, they're getting buffed despite objections that it will make proxies too strong, with David Kim asking for any shred of evidence that this was actually a problem.
Seriously, how can all three of them miss the mark so completely on that one? Proxy Oracle into proxy Tempests happens so rarely at high/pro level, you cannot blame them. I have faced this only 2 times out of hundreds of games, and it was probably 2 times the same player. But why are they commenting on proxy Tempests? That has nothing to do with the buff, and they clearly thought that Tempests were receiving a nerf due to proxy Tempests.
Err... How do you deduce this from their answers?
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On February 12 2014 23:04 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 22:54 RampancyTW wrote:
It's really frustrating how ignorant all of the T players were with regards to the Tempest change. They all seemed to think that the Tempest was getting a NERF of some sort related to proxy Tempest rushes, when in reality, they're getting buffed despite objections that it will make proxies too strong, with David Kim asking for any shred of evidence that this was actually a problem.
Seriously, how can all three of them miss the mark so completely on that one? They were bemused that anyone would be afraid of proxy tempest cheese. qxc basically said that must happen at another [much lower] level than where he plays. Xenocider basically LOL'd. One of them said that Rotterdam would be sad... I don't know why his favorite strategy getting buffed would make him sad. Unless, you know, Major actually was completely clueless about what the change actually was.
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On February 12 2014 22:19 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 20:11 Jj_82 wrote:I don't understand people moaning about no scouting in PvP without the MSC range. There's probes, MSC, hallucination, observer and air later on. Isn't that enough scouting resources? (Yes, i don't play toss. And yes, i'm gold  ) No because you either can't scout quickly enough with any of those in time to react to your opponent, or can't reliably get scouting information to react. Show nested quote +Err, do you want to say that the msc will get to the base faster than a sentry halluc nix despite the 25 second additional build time and slowest possible movement speed? Yes because the msc doesnt have to sit there building energy to scout across the map. Hallu scouts can get done in time to see a one base all-in if and only if you chronoboost the sentry out as your first unit, and even then it's too late to react usually (you get a full scout off at around 7 minutes this way). edit: for what it's worth, PvP is as coinflippy as ever, if not more, in HotS.
Would a hallucination cost reduction to 75 help?
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On February 12 2014 23:18 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 23:04 Salient wrote:On February 12 2014 22:54 RampancyTW wrote:
It's really frustrating how ignorant all of the T players were with regards to the Tempest change. They all seemed to think that the Tempest was getting a NERF of some sort related to proxy Tempest rushes, when in reality, they're getting buffed despite objections that it will make proxies too strong, with David Kim asking for any shred of evidence that this was actually a problem.
Seriously, how can all three of them miss the mark so completely on that one? They were bemused that anyone would be afraid of proxy tempest cheese. qxc basically said that must happen at another [much lower] level than where he plays. Xenocider basically LOL'd. One of them said that Rotterdam would be sad... I don't know why his favorite strategy getting buffed would make him sad. Unless, you know, Major actually was completely clueless about what the change actually was.
I think it was more a "private joke" regarding this...
Surprisingly, we’ve gotten a lot of feedback that proxy Tempest rushes are too strong right now, and this change would make that strategy even stronger, but we’ve been watching all of the major tournament games, and we still don’t think it’s being used enough (or being used at all). If you can identify some games where the best of the best pro players have successfully used this strategy against a formidable opponent, please let us know. We’d like to check out such games and analyze them.
... implying Rotterdam was too low or something.
Edit: Or maybe it meant his strategy would no longer be unique. I don't know.
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On February 12 2014 23:16 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 23:14 RampancyTW wrote:On February 12 2014 23:07 TheDwf wrote:On February 12 2014 22:54 RampancyTW wrote:
It's really frustrating how ignorant all of the T players were with regards to the Tempest change. They all seemed to think that the Tempest was getting a NERF of some sort related to proxy Tempest rushes, when in reality, they're getting buffed despite objections that it will make proxies too strong, with David Kim asking for any shred of evidence that this was actually a problem.
Seriously, how can all three of them miss the mark so completely on that one? Proxy Oracle into proxy Tempests happens so rarely at high/pro level, you cannot blame them. I have faced this only 2 times out of hundreds of games, and it was probably 2 times the same player. But why are they commenting on proxy Tempests? That has nothing to do with the buff, and they clearly thought that Tempests were receiving a nerf due to proxy Tempests. Err... How do you deduce this from their answers? Major thinking that Rotterdam would be a sad panda ----> Tempest rushing receiving a nerf. That one's blatant. There were some tweets from players after the changes were announced about how David Kim was stupid for buffing Tempests if he really thought proxy Tempests were a problem (hint: he doesn't), and some that outright missed that it was a buff and not a nerf. This just seems like a continuation of that cluelessness. Why would they be commenting on proxy Tempest rushes and how they haven't seen them if they thought that this change was a.) a buff to Tempests, and b.) specifically intended to help combat Z static defense in the lategame?
The other races' players all give some decent feedback on the change, and then the Terrans come derping through with LOL PROXY TEMPESTS. Don't get it.
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On February 12 2014 23:23 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 23:16 TheDwf wrote:On February 12 2014 23:14 RampancyTW wrote:On February 12 2014 23:07 TheDwf wrote:On February 12 2014 22:54 RampancyTW wrote:
It's really frustrating how ignorant all of the T players were with regards to the Tempest change. They all seemed to think that the Tempest was getting a NERF of some sort related to proxy Tempest rushes, when in reality, they're getting buffed despite objections that it will make proxies too strong, with David Kim asking for any shred of evidence that this was actually a problem.
Seriously, how can all three of them miss the mark so completely on that one? Proxy Oracle into proxy Tempests happens so rarely at high/pro level, you cannot blame them. I have faced this only 2 times out of hundreds of games, and it was probably 2 times the same player. But why are they commenting on proxy Tempests? That has nothing to do with the buff, and they clearly thought that Tempests were receiving a nerf due to proxy Tempests. Err... How do you deduce this from their answers? Major thinking that Rotterdam would be a sad panda ----> Tempest rushing receiving a nerf. That one's blatant. There were some tweets from players after the changes were announced about how David Kim was stupid for buffing Tempests if he really thought proxy Tempests were a problem (hint: he doesn't), and some that outright missed that it was a buff and not a nerf. This just seems like a continuation of that cluelessness. Why would they be commenting on proxy Tempest rushes and how they haven't seen them if they thought that this change was a.) a buff to Tempests, and b.) specifically intended to help combat Z static defense in the lategame? The other races' players all give some decent feedback on the change, and then the Terrans come derping through with LOL PROXY TEMPESTS. Don't get it.
What I don't get is the vehemence of your reaction for something rather insignificant... ?
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On February 12 2014 23:25 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 23:23 RampancyTW wrote:On February 12 2014 23:16 TheDwf wrote:On February 12 2014 23:14 RampancyTW wrote:On February 12 2014 23:07 TheDwf wrote:On February 12 2014 22:54 RampancyTW wrote:
It's really frustrating how ignorant all of the T players were with regards to the Tempest change. They all seemed to think that the Tempest was getting a NERF of some sort related to proxy Tempest rushes, when in reality, they're getting buffed despite objections that it will make proxies too strong, with David Kim asking for any shred of evidence that this was actually a problem.
Seriously, how can all three of them miss the mark so completely on that one? Proxy Oracle into proxy Tempests happens so rarely at high/pro level, you cannot blame them. I have faced this only 2 times out of hundreds of games, and it was probably 2 times the same player. But why are they commenting on proxy Tempests? That has nothing to do with the buff, and they clearly thought that Tempests were receiving a nerf due to proxy Tempests. Err... How do you deduce this from their answers? Major thinking that Rotterdam would be a sad panda ----> Tempest rushing receiving a nerf. That one's blatant. There were some tweets from players after the changes were announced about how David Kim was stupid for buffing Tempests if he really thought proxy Tempests were a problem (hint: he doesn't), and some that outright missed that it was a buff and not a nerf. This just seems like a continuation of that cluelessness. Why would they be commenting on proxy Tempest rushes and how they haven't seen them if they thought that this change was a.) a buff to Tempests, and b.) specifically intended to help combat Z static defense in the lategame? The other races' players all give some decent feedback on the change, and then the Terrans come derping through with LOL PROXY TEMPESTS. Don't get it. What I don't get is the vehemence of your reaction for something rather insignificant... ? I think vehemence might be overstating it a bit there, champ. But I do find it irritating that while all of the other players/questions provided some good feedback and insight into the minds of the players, their responses to that question all seemed so misinformed/missing the point. I found it jarring and, well, unprofessional, for lack of a better word.
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On February 12 2014 22:19 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 20:11 Jj_82 wrote:I don't understand people moaning about no scouting in PvP without the MSC range. There's probes, MSC, hallucination, observer and air later on. Isn't that enough scouting resources? (Yes, i don't play toss. And yes, i'm gold ) No because you either can't scout quickly enough with any of those in time to react to your opponent, or can't reliably get scouting information to react. Show nested quote +Err, do you want to say that the msc will get to the base faster than a sentry halluc nix despite the 25 second additional build time and slowest possible movement speed? Yes because the msc doesnt have to sit there building energy to scout across the map. Hallu scouts can get done in time to see a one base all-in if and only if you chronoboost the sentry out as your first unit, and even then it's too late to react usually ( you get a full scout off at around 7 minutes this way). edit: for what it's worth, PvP is as coinflippy as ever, if not more, in HotS.
I'm afraid I do not understand the timing, you can get a sentry after your first stalker (around 4.30) and it will be out before the 5 minute mark. It doesn't need two minutes for that energy to accrue, surely.
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I feel like the biggest problem is with the high range units and free units.
The siege tank used to be the, by far highest range unit. It has severe drawbacks (no melee attack, siege time as well self splash), this let the unit be fine in SC2.
Along comes the broodlord (its fine that its strong, the pathing block is just silly) and becomes the most game breaking unit vs P and to some extent terran. ZvZ never really got to that stage of the game.
To fix the broodlord, we needed to get the Tempest, a unit thats super uninteresting, deals low damage and outranges everything and has no severe drawbacks like the tank.
We also got the swarmhost "forcing engagements" with stupid range.
Jesus christ, if you want to remove deathballs from the game, add some low range core units to the game for terran and protoss and zerg.
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hydra buff is kinda useless cause tanks counter roach hydra just waaaaaaaaaay to hard :/
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On February 13 2014 00:23 monsta wrote:
hydra buff is kinda useless cause tanks counter roach hydra just waaaaaaaaaay to hard :/
And still, Roaches/hydras timings regularly stomp defensive bunks/Tanks positions because it takes a lot of time for Terran to have enough Tanks to comfortably massacre Roaches/hydras. The problem of the Hydralisk is called larva inject; due to how fast Zerg can max on cheap or moderately expensive units by midgame, it is difficult to adjust the strength of the unit so it does not overperform in midgame (hence why the initial 100/25 proposal was completely insane) because it needs some help in lategame (in which Terran and Protoss can have enough AoE out to deal with mass hydras).
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Canada13407 Posts
On February 12 2014 23:14 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 23:07 TheDwf wrote:On February 12 2014 22:54 RampancyTW wrote:
It's really frustrating how ignorant all of the T players were with regards to the Tempest change. They all seemed to think that the Tempest was getting a NERF of some sort related to proxy Tempest rushes, when in reality, they're getting buffed despite objections that it will make proxies too strong, with David Kim asking for any shred of evidence that this was actually a problem.
Seriously, how can all three of them miss the mark so completely on that one? Proxy Oracle into proxy Tempests happens so rarely at high/pro level, you cannot blame them. I have faced this only 2 times out of hundreds of games, and it was probably 2 times the same player. But why are they commenting on proxy Tempests? That has nothing to do with the buff, and they clearly thought that Tempests were receiving a nerf due to proxy Tempests.
Maybe I misread it but it felt to me that major was scoffing at the change and that while excited now, Rotterdam will be disappointed when it doesn't happen.
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I think what we've gathered from this patch is only that Rotterdam should be hired by Blizzard instead of David Kim to lead balance team.
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I love that so many pros are saying SH needs to be changed. I was saying that back in HotS beta and I refused to buy HotS as a result although I am a Zerg player. In the meantime I also lost the interest to watch tournaments, I hate that Blizzard made the game worse and SH is one of the main problems (and Mines second).
Since we know Blizzard does not make meaningful changes without expansions I guess I will be waiting until LotV and hope Blizzard listens to the outcry from the players and fans and fixes this bullshit but seeing how they "fixed" stuff for HotS I am not that hopeful. Sad that SC2 is only decent RTS game out and only one with noticeable esport scene.
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Someone said something about buffing the observer for protoss (its vision range at least). I think this could be brilliant to accompagny the msc nerf. Also, I feel like nerfing from 14 to 9 is a lot. Why not test it with 12, 11, 10 ? then adjust accordingly ?
Anyway, the hydra buff seemed too much to me in the beginning, but someone else mentionned the latest tank buff. And regarding TvZ, it might make roach/hydra a little more potent against T. Don't know about PvZ...
Overall, to me, only blink all ins and voidrays are somewhat unbalanced (blink vT, and voids vZ). Msc also gives too much defensive power to protoss. Nerfing its vision range is a good thing I think.
Thanks a lot for the post people. Thanks to the pros for their hindsights.
Also, proof that this game is extraordinary, when you "play" a race, you become part of it. I thought for so long this game was a RTS, when it's really just a roleplaying one.
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I can't believe that Qxc ACTUALLY SAID that the mineral-cost to locusts would be a "worth to consider" option.. WTF
By far the most biased person in the pro-scene (at least from the Terrans).. Ofc. - won't matter much cause now in the current position the META is against the Terrans.. But his "solutions" really are annoying at the very least.. Not even thinking before saying it --> like - I bet you on that
BUT - his "reduce speed on creep and increase off-creep" propose wasn't as bad though
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Still - think I have a good change/idea in mind:
1 - reduce the cost of the SwarmHost - i.e. - instead of 200/100/3 - make it be 150/75/3, or at least 175/75/3
2 - remove - yes - completely remove the EL upgrade.. If any upgrade proves to be "needed" - then make a Hive-one that will give the Locusts +10 life instead of +10 sec lifetime.. Though the cost reduction of the unit should suffice even without that IMO
3 - Increase Viper's abduct casting range, but make it delayed, or "channeling" for like 1.5 sec
That way you achieve the effect of SHs being a "Roach 2.0" hit&run unit instead of the "You shall not pass one".. The cost reduction also goes into that direction.. BUT - I also believe that Zerg would need a bit more of a "safer" Viper to counteract the "positional stability" lack - i.e. - what the SH used to do now it's the Viper's duty to "engage" first
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THAT, and the proposed WM change should do It all.. The MSC vision range wouldn't be bad if it wasn't as hard
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i've been thinking for a while now that warp-in time should increase based on a function of the path distance from the warp-in point to the warpgate. Maintains defender's advantage of being able to warp-in quickly anywhere at your base and reduces effectiveness of proxy warpgate attacks.
So what's gonna happen with the next patch? each race gets 2 new units and yeah job done.
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i've been thinking for a while now that warp-in time should increase based on a function of the path distance from the warp-in point to the warpgate. Maintains defender's advantage of being able to warp-in quickly anywhere at your base and reduces effectiveness of proxy warpgate attacks.
So what's gonna happen with the next patch? each race gets 2 new units and yeah job done.
I know there is protoss players out there that will flame you for this comment or ignore you because you only have 40 posts BUT this is actually a Highly intelligent and amazing way / Fix for this problem... though I don't know how they would easily implement this Code wise to teh game... seeing how this game has been out for a couple years they aren't looking to put in major time to reworking things like that even though its pure genius ^^ and quite simple might i add
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EPT
