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TW
Poland255 Posts
any nerf to swarmhost will see zerg win-rates drop alot, even if u address the swarmhost, u still need to address the fact that turtle protoss and terran mech are equally absurd vs zerg. Not really, because of how races are designed. If you sit and turtle against Zerg, Zerg economy will beat you. Also T and P would rather play offensive against Z, it is just they cannot because of SHs. So again, the problem starts with SHs and SHs themselve should be fixed. | ||
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Jj_82
Swaziland419 Posts
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Irrational_Animal
Germany1059 Posts
On February 12 2014 18:53 TW wrote: Not really, because of how races are designed. If you sit and turtle against Zerg, Zerg economy will beat you. Also T and P would rather play offensive against Z, it is just they cannot because of SHs. So again, the problem starts with SHs and SHs themselve should be fixed. A maxed out Toss army with 4-5 colossi and 6 voidrays will win against a non-SHish army in a way that being 2 or 3 bases ahead won`t get you very far. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On February 12 2014 18:53 TW wrote: Not really, because of how races are designed. If you sit and turtle against Zerg, Zerg economy will beat you. Also T and P would rather play offensive against Z, it is just they cannot because of SHs. So again, the problem starts with SHs and SHs themselve should be fixed. Imo, if you turtle on three bases, there is no way the zerg's economy will be significantly higher than yours. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On February 12 2014 18:53 TW wrote: Not really, because of how races are designed. If you sit and turtle against Zerg, Zerg economy will beat you. Also T and P would rather play offensive against Z, it is just they cannot because of SHs. So again, the problem starts with SHs and SHs themselve should be fixed. That's not how SC2 works, BW yes, SC2 no. If a terran or toss can reach their ideal compositions, which by the way, is becoming more and more common, then it doesn't matter how many bases you have as zerg, without SH you won't trade cost efficiently, you could remax as many times as you want and burn all your bank and larva and you'll still lose because of how insanely powerful the sky terran and toss deathball become when they reach their critical mass. So yes zerg has to get SH. Also, unlike BW, zerg economy doesn't actually get a whole lot better with more bases, yes you get more bases to mine from, but that also means less supply in your army, and thus less raw power to punch trough their already formidable compositions. In BW having more bases meant that, even if you had an equal amount of workers compared to your opponent, you could spread them out more and thus harvest more resources in total while still maintaining a equally sized army, and that made a huge difference. SH on its own isn't the problem, toss and mech on their own aren't the problem either. The problem is just the general game design, its the economy being to efficient on too small a base count, and its armies with aoe becoming exponentially more powerful due to DPS density and a lack of diminishing returns mechanics. So the game has 3 problems overall, economy, DPS density and, lack of diminishing returns mechanics for AOE units. Fixing just one of those isn't enough, you need to fix all of them. | ||
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TW
Poland255 Posts
A maxed out Toss army with 4-5 colossi and 6 voidrays will win against a non-SHish army in a way that being 2 or 3 bases ahead won`t get you very far. I agree. If they nerf SH they should buff something else, it's their job to figure out what, new spells, better hydras? Nobody says Z can fight without SH, but everybody says they are just so painful to watch!!! They absolutely kill the dynamics of game and multitasking. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 12 2014 14:08 BronzeKnee wrote: I really get the feeling that is TeamLiquid's passive aggressive way to say to Blizzard, hey some of your ideas are really, really dumb. I'd prefer if they came out and just said that, but I understand. I have to sugarcoat things and play politics at my job too. They do the exact same thing with Dota 2 and Hearthstone patches. It is just providing value for the people who come to the site. | ||
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lessQQmorePEWPEW
Jamaica921 Posts
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
On February 12 2014 20:54 Plansix wrote: They do the exact same thing with Dota 2 and Hearthstone patches. It is just providing value for the people who come to the site. And thank goodness they do it, its not only entertaining to get players feedback and understand how they see the game, but it also provides valuable data and ideas to Blizzard. | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
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Ero-Sennin
United States756 Posts
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Arolis
United States496 Posts
On February 12 2014 20:11 Jj_82 wrote: I don't understand people moaning about no scouting in PvP without the MSC range. There's probes, MSC, hallucination, observer and air later on. Isn't that enough scouting resources? (Yes, i don't play toss. And yes, i'm gold )When Protoss complain about scouting in PvP it has to deal with a specific timing in the game: The time between the Cyber Core finishing and the first tech building being thrown down. This was one of the biggest issues in what made PvP such a coinflip matchup in WoL. The MSC has been the most effective and possibly only tool for scouting during this time period. Probes will never see the tech, Observers are obviously too late and sentries take time to build up energy for the first hallucination. I doubt the vision change is so severe that we'll go back to the awful WoL PvP days, but there will be a potential increase in games lost because you couldn't scout your opponent's tech and auto-lose due to build order. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On February 12 2014 21:45 Arolis wrote: When Protoss complain about scouting in PvP it has to deal with a specific timing in the game: The time between the Cyber Core finishing and the first tech building being thrown down. This was one of the biggest issues in what made PvP such a coinflip matchup in WoL. The MSC has been the most effective and possibly only tool for scouting during this time period. Probes will never see the tech, Observers are obviously too late and sentries take time to build up energy for the first hallucination. I doubt the vision change is so severe that we'll go back to the awful WoL PvP days, but there will be a potential increase in games lost because you couldn't scout your opponent's tech and auto-lose due to build order. Err, do you want to say that the msc will get to the base faster than a sentry halluc nix despite the 25 second additional build time and slowest possible movement speed? | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On February 12 2014 20:11 Jj_82 wrote: I don't understand people moaning about no scouting in PvP without the MSC range. There's probes, MSC, hallucination, observer and air later on. Isn't that enough scouting resources? (Yes, i don't play toss. And yes, i'm gold )No because you either can't scout quickly enough with any of those in time to react to your opponent, or can't reliably get scouting information to react. Err, do you want to say that the msc will get to the base faster than a sentry halluc nix despite the 25 second additional build time and slowest possible movement speed? Yes because the msc doesnt have to sit there building energy to scout across the map. Hallu scouts can get done in time to see a one base all-in if and only if you chronoboost the sentry out as your first unit, and even then it's too late to react usually (you get a full scout off at around 7 minutes this way). edit: for what it's worth, PvP is as coinflippy as ever, if not more, in HotS. | ||
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coyote37
France150 Posts
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RageCommodore
Germany912 Posts
On February 12 2014 20:53 TW wrote: I agree. If they nerf SH they should buff something else, it's their job to figure out what, new spells, better hydras? Nobody says Z can fight without SH, but everybody says they are just so painful to watch!!! They absolutely kill the dynamics of game and multitasking. Zerglings profit from the ultralisk armor upgrade. ULTRALINGS BAM, solved. Seriously though, I think promoting a guerilla warfare style for Zerg is fitting the theme and would be really fun to watch. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On February 12 2014 22:29 coyote37 wrote: next time at least ask me to use my images... thanks. All those artworks are free in the web, some of them can be searched through Google and through official Battle.Net gallery. | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
Seriously, how can all three of them miss the mark so completely on that one? | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On February 12 2014 22:54 RampancyTW wrote: It's really frustrating how ignorant all of the T players were with regards to the Tempest change. They all seemed to think that the Tempest was getting a NERF of some sort related to proxy Tempest rushes, when in reality, they're getting buffed despite objections that it will make proxies too strong, with David Kim asking for any shred of evidence that this was actually a problem. Seriously, how can all three of them miss the mark so completely on that one? They were bemused that anyone would be afraid of proxy tempest cheese. qxc basically said that must happen at another [much lower] level than where he plays. Xenocider basically LOL'd. | ||
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