EPTWhy don't they just decrease the time between waves and shorten the timer until the locusts die. Zerg would no longer be able to hit you with free units from 1/3 the way across the map, and would have to keep their sh much closer to the opponents army. Combine this with a reduction to the burrow time for the swarm host, and suddenly Zergs have to continue to reposition them, which doesnt allow for them to just passively keep them next to a great wall of spores and spines. Also, a quicker burrow time would mean that they could be used for hit and run tactics around the map, which should add to the watchability/playability of the MU.
Feb 10 Proposed Changes: Pro Opinions - Page 3
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
Why don't they just decrease the time between waves and shorten the timer until the locusts die. Zerg would no longer be able to hit you with free units from 1/3 the way across the map, and would have to keep their sh much closer to the opponents army. Combine this with a reduction to the burrow time for the swarm host, and suddenly Zergs have to continue to reposition them, which doesnt allow for them to just passively keep them next to a great wall of spores and spines. Also, a quicker burrow time would mean that they could be used for hit and run tactics around the map, which should add to the watchability/playability of the MU. | ||
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Ammanas
Slovakia2166 Posts
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Waise
3165 Posts
On February 12 2014 04:53 Survivor61316 wrote: I'm sorry qxc, but those were some terrible proposed changes to the sh.. Why don't they just decrease the time between waves and shorten the timer until the locusts die. Zerg would no longer be able to hit you with free units from 1/3 the way across the map, and would have to keep their sh much closer to the opponents army. Combine this with a reduction to the burrow time for the swarm host, and suddenly Zergs have to continue to reposition them, which doesnt allow for them to just passively keep them next to a great wall of spores and spines. Also, a quicker burrow time would mean that they could be used for hit and run tactics around the map, which should add to the watchability/playability of the MU. zerg already has to aggressively reposition their SH to succeed in high level play. SH already require good multitasking and map awareness. this is not the issue with SH at all. please stop suggesting this | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On February 12 2014 04:19 avilo wrote: The problem is right now there's no risk at all to really using blink stalkers in PvT. You can virtually always escape every single time either from the Terran's base after offensive blinks, or you can do the fake blink macro builds and never lose any stalkers but still heavily pressure Terran at no risk whatsoever to yourself. Making blink require more thought to use and have more risk associated to it will go a long way to help TvP balance because right now the balance of TvP is quite abysmal. There are too, too many PvT openings that have low risks associated with them, blink probably being the one that almost always puts the Protoss player ahead, or at the very worst even which is pretty lame. I disagree. I feel like Protoss blink attacks are already hurt quite a bit by the MsC nerf. Not only that but why do we want to remove mobility of one of the only highly mobile microable units for protoss? As it stands Stalkers are able to give protoss some map control in PvT not by virtue of simply being stalkers but by virtue of blink. Without blink those stalkers don't have map control once concussive shells is dome and they require active attention to have that map control. I like seeing styles of protoss play that involve 5 or 6 blink stalkers causing a stim or picking off a stray medivac. It punishes poor terran positioning but relies on good control and attention at the same time. It is purely skilful. Terran likewise can save a stray medivac if its slightly out of position with boost and a small group of stim bio (as opposed to full army stim for those few stalkers- another marker of skill and attention to detail). As for blink all ins the mama core nerf is more than enough. While David k references perfect positioning for high ground vision and how it might not impact the all in here puCK provides the perfect counterpoint: decision making. With 9 range vision the MsC cannot provide adequate vision from a safe range of the positioning of all of terran forces. This means protoss players cannot blink into a terran base with full knowledge of the terran army position every time without also gaining extra info from a poke at the front for example to see what is there. If protoss does want that vision of terran base they must commit the MsC close enough that it is danger of taking damage or being killed. The vision nerf ALSO needs time warp during these all ins further than the previous patch. The cast range of timewarp is the same range as its vision now. Meaning that while previously you could see units coming to kill the mama core cast time warp preemptively and run now if the MSc is the only or primary source of forward vision the reaction time for the time warp is shorter. Instead of running through the entire AoE of the time warp a caught off guard mama ship core can only cast timewarp such that any attacking unit starts halfway through the AoE field assuming Immediate reaction the. Something none of the pros above mentioned. | ||
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frozzz
Croatia118 Posts
ofcourse msc is issue with blink(vision and timewarp on the ramp mostly) and not the maps. i also like how they cry about msc vision affecting pvp too much.it's a mirror,same situation for both players,you had enough free scouting for 1 year,i hope we can move to the next step of hots, where u ll waste 100 energy on free scout, called hallucionation..or that other perma scout called observer that gets out in 10 secs. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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Waise
3165 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:01 frozzz wrote: yes desrow, let's have 10 maps like habitation station, where main has 3 meters squared and natural 2forcefield ramp, that will be soooooo fun to watch and blink wont be an issue at all.give me a break ofcourse msc is issue with blink(vision and timewarp on the ramp mostly) and not the maps. i also like how they cry about msc vision affecting pvp too much.it's a mirror,same situation for both players,you had enough free scouting for 1 year,i hope we can move to the next step of hots, where u ll waste 100 energy on free scout, called hallucionation..or that other perma scout called observer that gets out in 10 secs. uhh hallucination scout is already a core part of pvp... im not a protoss player but i assume when they talk about MSC scouting they're referring to build deviations that happen before your hallucination crosses the map, like 1 base all ins. just because it's a mirror matchup that doesn't mean it doesn't have to be balanced so different playstyles are interesting and effective | ||
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
QXC should have blog about patches and balance changes imo. | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
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tenklavir
Slovakia116 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:00 ZeromuS wrote: With 9 range vision the MsC cannot provide adequate vision from a safe range of the positioning of all of terran forces. This means protoss players cannot blink into a terran base with full knowledge of the terran army position every time without also gaining extra info from a poke at the front for example to see what is there. If protoss does want that vision of terran base they must commit the MsC close enough that it is danger of taking damage or being killed. Why exactly is Protoss entitled to a safe blink into the Terran base? The whole idea is that there should be some risk involved in this kind of play, which is exactly why so many Terran hate (and continue to hate) the Oracle change - an aggressive, potentially high-reward play should come with some degree of risk. | ||
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Butterednuts
United States859 Posts
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TimKim0713
Korea (South)221 Posts
Need korean opinions as well | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
I absolutely love these little interviews that TL has. Please continue this reaction series and perhaps expand it to include tournament result reactions! This is a good idea about the Tournament results we for sure would have some good reactions from ppl like Idra retired or not LOLOOL | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:18 TimKim0713 wrote: Why so low terran contributors... Need korean opinions as well As always, teamliquid get the answers from people that respond. I am sure they would be happy to publish any pros opinion if they took the time to write it down. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:13 tenklavir wrote: Why exactly is Protoss entitled to a safe blink into the Terran base? The whole idea is that there should be some risk involved in this kind of play, which is exactly why so many Terran hate (and continue to hate) the Oracle change - an aggressive, potentially high-reward play should come with some degree of risk. I am specifically mentioning how the MsC nerf is already adding a lot more risk to the blink options vs Terran. I don't see what you are arguing? If you cant see everything its not a free safe blink. This provides more chances for terran to abuse either the more limited vision of the mama core leading to quick poor blink decisions or for terran to damage or kill the mothership core. Further the widow mine change means its even more effective vs one base blink all ins if the terran player has a fact coming see Twilight or a lot of stalkers and no natural. Will it help vs blink expands? Not specifically, I mean, Protoss can still make 6 - 8 stalkers off 2 base with blink and pressure terran while taking a third, but that build doesnt get a lot of gates. If the Protoss player gets a lot of gates and doesnt commit to a big attack instead expanding with 2 gas to a third base terran should have a timing to hurt the protoss player in some way or get ahead in tech/upgrades pretty easily. The reaction from terran will require scouting and reaction to that scouting which is a metagame thing that slowly evolves and grows as the Terrans deal with it more. But thats different from balance, thats an issue of understanding from both sides. Once terran figures out the reaction Protoss will either stop doing it or retool the build to be more safe allowing terran less timing options, but more stable opportunities to expand or not lose much to the small stalker squad assuming good reactions. Thats how the game evolves On February 12 2014 05:23 Plansix wrote: As always, teamliquid get the answers from people that respond. I am sure they would be happy to publish any pros opinion if they took the time to write it down. YES! We had a shorter deadline for this one and a few things compound the smaller number of terrans: - fewer foreign terrans than the other races in general - fewer terrans willing to provide feedback in general (we hope as these releases get more positive answers, people open up to contributing) - some Koreans who were available and willing this time provided either limited comments or ones that were a little off topic or not related to this patch note So I hope you can understand. If any pro Terrans want to contribute to the next one PM and I will try to include you in the next one, as long as you have a decently level head, as we try to focus on people who can consolidate their race bias and look at the game a little more objectively (pure objectivity is impossible though so we take that with a grain of salt) | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:00 Waise wrote: zerg already has to aggressively reposition their SH to succeed in high level play. SH already require good multitasking and map awareness. this is not the issue with SH at all. please stop suggesting this No they don't. They plant them and thats about the end of it. Thats why they can also plant static d, because the sh aren't going anywhere anytime soon. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:25 Survivor61316 wrote: No they don't. They plant them and thats about the end of it. Thats why they can also plant static d, because the sh aren't going anywhere anytime soon. You do understand zerg static defense is not actually static? | ||
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
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