EPTOn February 12 2014 21:59 Nizes wrote:
Doesn't this affect mcores scouting ability in pvp?
Doesn't this affect mcores scouting ability in pvp?
how about using probes and observers
MSC was designed to be a defensive unit - at least initial
Feb 10: Balance Test Map Coming - Page 46
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Rollora
2450 Posts
how about using probes and observers MSC was designed to be a defensive unit - at least initial | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On February 13 2014 00:49 Rollora wrote: how about using probes and observers MSC was designed to be a defensive unit - at least initial There's a gap in scouting between Stalker popping and Obs/Oracle/Phoenix reaching the opponents base. You cannot intelligently determine your tech, and people used the MSC to do exactly that. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3509 Posts
They should create benefits of not turning all your gates into warpgates. Let`s say with gateways units would be a little faster to built but you can`t warp-in. You build like a terran. With warpgates you would have the warp-in but the build time is a little bit slower. That would make interesting choices for the Protoss to make. I think this could be cool as in a Race feature and could definitely be used for the campaign for LotV, but from a pure multiplayer standpoint, Warp Gate tech is one of the mechanics that really differentiate the Protoss race from the rest, which is even more important. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 13 2014 00:59 ejozl wrote: I think this could be cool as in a Race feature and could definitely be used for the campaign for LotV, but from a pure multiplayer standpoint, Warp Gate tech is one of the mechanics that really differentiate the Protoss race from the rest, which is even more important. Sure it differentiates them, but is it in a positive way? And Protoss had a "queuing production" too in SC1, and it did not make them similar to Terran for all that. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3509 Posts
Sure it differentiates them, but is it in a positive way? And Protoss had a "queuing production" too in SC1, and it did not make them similar to Terran for all that. I do think it is in a positive way, however there's been a ton of trouble with it, for sure. | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On February 13 2014 00:49 Rollora wrote: how about using probes and observers MSC was designed to be a defensive unit - at least initial Yea you send a Probe in that dies to a Stalker, then you send an Observer in and an Oracle flies into your base! Great scouting! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27125 Posts
I know you people hate Protoss but the guy who laid out the following pattern: 1. Protoss has a ton of allins that beat people a lot. 2. People figure out responses to most of the Protoss timings. 3. Protoss sucks, or is limited to a very few allins that are consistently good. The Immortal/Sentry was one of these, an all-in so good that I really disliked what it did for the game, but the only real reliable 2 base allin Protoss had that didn't require a scouting denial. I tend to agree. Protoss is just a gimmicky race that annoys people a lot, but for those of us who would like to play a more stable and mechanical style, it's just not really as effective as either turtling or all-inning. PvT was worse than this though, because some of the allins require total different responses [i]and[/i/] could be hard to scout. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
The all ins kind of have to be strong, but there is something that just fundamentally feels wrong when a 2 base push gets scouted several minutes in advance, every correct preparation is taken, and yet the protoss just walks across the map and proceeds to crush the opponent. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Plenty of Korean protosses have complained about this, how they felt they could not play a safe, standard style and had to resort to gimmicks and all ins to be viable. The most common complaint has been that there is no good way go truly express their skill through mechanical play. Ironically, swarm host turtle is probably the hardest thing for a protoss to play against, and acts sort of as a way to separate the chaff from the wheat. The all ins kind of have to be strong, but there is something that just fundamentally feels wrong when a 2 base push gets scouted several minutes in advance, every correct preparation is taken, and yet the protoss just walks across the map and proceeds to crush the opponent. Pretty much this I took issue with this in PvZ especially but I completely feel for the protoss that express themselves in that way.. They are playing a race they love and wish to have the ability to express their ability in their play which they can to a very small extent... most of the time the playing agianst protoss is more of a "Suicide Squeeze" method where its a forced point where HAVING the actual specific unit means more than your actual micro with that unit.... For instance Colo your opponent gets 4 Colo with blink stalkers if you don't have Vikings you auto lose to that because vikings are your only answer well if your opponent plays the 2 Base Blink stalker Forces you to react to that and Rushes colo while containing you with good micro you go to counter and BAM your met with a wall of colo and are forced to GG out. Same with the DT / Archon rush you take any damage from the DT because you were harassed with a 10/10/10 into DT and didn't have time to scout for it you finally deal with the DT then Bam Archon Zlot combo knocking at your door which is actually what gave Maru his first loss in PL minus the 10/10/10 pressure LOL Sorry for the rant here but it stresses my point that protoss is more of the units you have and not about how you can control them... whereas terran is about how you can control the units you have and less about what you have.... because you can have vikings but you put them in a bad spot and BAM you lose them against Blink stalker or even your bio force against STorm which we see quite often they get backed into a corner and T Click you lost your army LOL classic case of more of protoss having the unit vs Terrans control.... Edit: I should kinda make my point a little more clear because protoss players are probably reading this with Flame in their eyes.... It Does matter hwo you control your army.... BUT the Ceiling for that control is very low which is why PvP is so volatile because you can lose to someone that is considerably worse than you in PvP because he zigged (DT Rushed) and you zagged ( 4 Gate Blink Stalker ) LOL | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 13 2014 01:02 TheDwf wrote: Sure it differentiates them, but is it in a positive way? And Protoss had a "queuing production" too in SC1, and it did not make them similar to Terran for all that. It did not make them a better race than SC2 Protoss either. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27125 Posts
Protoss has a lot of opening gambits now that throw vT into flux, but back in the day you could open 1 Rax Gasless pretty much every game and just play out a macro game as Terran and the build divergence occurred later on up the tree. Now Terrans have to factor in a lot of all-ins that are hitting at timings that 1 Rax Gasless doesn't deal that well with, as well as having Protoss with the MSC's defensive capability. PvT was a lot better in WoL IMO, at the top Korean level it was amazing at times to watch guys like Taeja, Polt, MKP, Bomber et al duke it out with Rain, Parting, HerO and the likes. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 13 2014 01:43 Big J wrote: It did not make them a better race than SC2 Protoss either. Unsure where you want to go with that sentence? | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
The game still isn't quite as figured out as WoL, but this was most neatly seen in PvZ at the height of Stephano's powers. I remember Bo7s where MC would literally have to do a different build every game and hope to surprise Steph, who was opening pretty much the same every game. Protoss has a lot of opening gambits now that throw vT into flux, but back in the day you could open 1 Rax Gasless pretty much every game and just play out a macro game as Terran and the build divergence occurred later on up the tree. Now Terrans have to factor in a lot of all-ins that are hitting at timings that 1 Rax Gasless doesn't deal that well with, as well as having Protoss with the MSC's defensive capability. PvT was a lot better in WoL IMO, at the top Korean level it was amazing at times to watch guys like Taeja, Polt, MKP, Bomber et al duke it out with Rain, Parting, HerO and the likes. 100% agree... one thing i would like to point out as well is that I don't think any terran here would have a problem with the amount of all ins if we had a crutch like Protoss has in PvP... think about it they wanted to fix PvP so taht you could safely expand.... well all those all ins that crush your protoss opponent when they expand just so happen to have a HUGE Detriment to the Terran builds.... it just so happens that Terrans are trying to use macro builds because aggressive openers don't work and hoping for the best.... Think about that for a second... What they tried fixing in PvP they then created in TvP but basically is saying that the Terran side can't have any viable all ins which gives all the cards to the P player.... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 13 2014 01:48 TheDwf wrote: Unsure where you want to go with that sentence? That I actually think that warpgate production makes them a little more different from Terran, while I don't think the main reason why Protoss balls up or allins stems from something like warpgate, but rather from "untradeable" expensive, lots of survival, little damage output units like the stalker, the dragoon, the immortal, the scout, the Archon... | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On February 13 2014 01:44 Wombat_NI wrote: The game still isn't quite as figured out as WoL, but this was most neatly seen in PvZ at the height of Stephano's powers. I remember Bo7s where MC would literally have to do a different build every game and hope to surprise Steph, who was opening pretty much the same every game. Protoss has a lot of opening gambits now that throw vT into flux, but back in the day you could open 1 Rax Gasless pretty much every game and just play out a macro game as Terran and the build divergence occurred later on up the tree. Now Terrans have to factor in a lot of all-ins that are hitting at timings that 1 Rax Gasless doesn't deal that well with, as well as having Protoss with the MSC's defensive capability. PvT was a lot better in WoL IMO, at the top Korean level it was amazing at times to watch guys like Taeja, Polt, MKP, Bomber et al duke it out with Rain, Parting, HerO and the likes. I don't think, say, PvX can be figured out in HotS, because protoss is so versatile with so many "extreme" units, it feels like there are always new builds to try. I think protoss is now less neutered than in late WoL, when they had very few options you really had to respect. It's actually something I like about the design, it makes watching players such as San quite fun, since you're always wondering what he'll do next. It leads to many broken situations unfortunately, and since protoss is so badly designed in general I feel like it hurts as much as it helps. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 13 2014 01:54 Big J wrote: That I actually think that warpgate production makes them a little more different from Terran, while I don't think the main reason why Protoss balls up or allins stems from something like warpgate, but rather from "untradeable" expensive, lots of survival, little damage output units like the stalker, the dragoon, the immortal, the scout, the Archon... Warpgate does further differentiate Protoss from Terran, but you would not call Protoss "Terran 2.0" even if gate production was the rule; the units are different enough to create clear distinctions between the two races. Warpgate has some influence on the "deathbally" aspect of Protoss but you could indeed break the deathball even with Warpgate still in the game as the normal gate production. But as for Protoss having so many all-ins, that's 100% a byproduct of Warpgate. There's not a single post 5 minuts all-in that doesn't rely on the "instant gate units reinforcement + build/keep building your attack near your opponent's base" mechanic (even if you bring some "tech units" such as Immortals or Colossi which were normally produced in your base). No doubt Protoss would still have some all-ins even without Warpgate—as Terran and Zerg have some without the instant reinforcement—but most would be erased. | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On February 13 2014 01:54 Big J wrote: That I actually think that warpgate production makes them a little more different from Terran, while I don't think the main reason why Protoss balls up or allins stems from something like warpgate, but rather from "untradeable" expensive, lots of survival, little damage output units like the stalker, the dragoon, the immortal, the scout, the Archon... The immortal? Holy shit. You mean the unit that owns 5 siege tanks single-handedly and survives with only shield damage? Low damage output indeed. And I'm not even gonna get started about the Archon. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 13 2014 02:57 one-one-one wrote: The immortal? Holy shit. You mean the unit that owns 5 siege tanks single-handedly and survives with only shield damage? Low damage output indeed. And I'm not even gonna get started about the Archon. I assumed he was talking about non-Armored units for the Immortal, because my Marauders or Tanks sure don't think they have little damage output indeed. | ||
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highsis
259 Posts
Health buff = good vs Terran Attack buff = good vs Protoss. On the same line of thoughts, they should slightly decrease Swarm Host attack and Increase swarms' health if they want to make the unit useful vs Terran. | ||
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