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On February 12 2014 13:49 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 12:13 Ovni wrote:On February 12 2014 11:13 Jerubaal wrote:
Flat nerfs to anything interesting Protoss can do.
Flat buffs to things that aren't remotely interesting or viable.
Flat buffs Zerg.
Pretty much par for course, I'd say. They've been randomly buffing Protoss since HotS came out; warp prisms, oracles. So no, this is a good change of direction. Yeah, they've been buffing them because their potential has been maxed out. A lot of Protoss will tell you this same thing: It has nothing to do with balance or what's happening right now, it's what's going to happen months or years from now. We got told the entirety of WoL that Protoss was OP or balanced and consequently every interesting and dynamic strategy Protoss had was gutted. Finally, when all the timings were discovered, when all the all-ins were figured out and when everyone learned how to play, it turned out Protoss was garbage-tier, especially against Zerg. So when I see this patch, forgive my sense of deja vu. Or maybe they will just keep changing things so the game never settles.
So many false statements. Protoss all-ins figured out? Please. As in Parting's Immortal Sentry allin that to this day he still says is practically unbeatable? Or how about at the end of WoL, when NaNiwa killed Flash twice in an MLG with Immortal busts that we still see today? Potential maxed out? Right, they buffed the Oracle because Protoss was solved and struggling. Oh wait, how many games did we see Terrans lose to proxy Oracle builds? Too many to count. There there's the issue of lategame PvT.
Players aren't magically going to figure out how to hold the ridiculous amount of allins Protoss have in the coming months or years, don't fall into this trap of "just wait." Protoss is dominating every server, foreigner Zergs and Protosses regularly take games off Koreans yet Terrans seldom do. You're right that Protoss struggled at the end WoL vs Zerg, but not due to people "learning how to play", but due to the power of the Infestor. TvP certainly wasn't Terran favoured.
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Russian Federation251 Posts
The question is, do these changes make the game more balanced or will it still be imbalanced (while in favour of another race)?
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On February 12 2014 13:49 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 12:13 Ovni wrote:On February 12 2014 11:13 Jerubaal wrote:
Flat nerfs to anything interesting Protoss can do.
Flat buffs to things that aren't remotely interesting or viable.
Flat buffs Zerg.
Pretty much par for course, I'd say. They've been randomly buffing Protoss since HotS came out; warp prisms, oracles. So no, this is a good change of direction. Yeah, they've been buffing them because their potential has been maxed out. A lot of Protoss will tell you this same thing: It has nothing to do with balance or what's happening right now, it's what's going to happen months or years from now. We got told the entirety of WoL that Protoss was OP or balanced and consequently every interesting and dynamic strategy Protoss had was gutted. Finally, when all the timings were discovered, when all the all-ins were figured out and when everyone learned how to play, it turned out Protoss was garbage-tier, especially against Zerg. So when I see this patch, forgive my sense of deja vu. Or maybe they will just keep changing things so the game never settles.
Sounds like Terran to me.
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the nerf of blink may cause difficulces in pvz
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On February 12 2014 15:08 Angeloidus wrote:
The question is, does these changes make the game more balanced or will it still be imbalanced (while in favour of another race)?
I think all those small changes (when combined) will make the situation better but protoss simply has an advantage over terran by design in Hots.
I don't think we will ever be able to play as greedy as we could in WoL (like gasless expo etc) and this makes all later terran timings weaker by default.
Also, from watching Meta with Artosis, all guys there agreed that the main problem is the difference in amount of openings protoss has and how defensive terran must be in a time we could play greedy in WoL.
Even 2 base blink isn't just 2 base blink. It could be just a complete fake off 1 gate, or slight 3 gate pressure into tech, 5-7 gate heavy commitment or simply a fast third with blink to help defend drops (like Parting vs. Flash).
Since you are stuck in your base it is very hard to say which of those is actually happening and which variant is protoss doing.
Other openings like oracle also have more than 1 variant.
So stuff like that wont change, but hopefully buffs to mine and nerfs to protoss early game aggression and scouting (MSC vision reduction) will eventually give terrans more openings which are harder for protoss to scout and therefore even out the playing field.
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No need to nerf blink cooldown, I think I would rather see the mothership core vision reduced to 5(same as attack range).
This will solve a lot of the problems for TvP without affecting other matchups.
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On February 12 2014 20:33 Afterstar wrote:
No need to nerf blink cooldown, I think I would rather see the mothership core vision reduced to 5(same as attack range).
This will solve a lot of the problems for TvP without affecting other matchups.
Doesn't this affect mcores scouting ability in pvp?
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No raven sollution? Prepare for more soulkey/reality matches...
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On February 12 2014 21:59 Nizes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 20:33 Afterstar wrote:
No need to nerf blink cooldown, I think I would rather see the mothership core vision reduced to 5(same as attack range).
This will solve a lot of the problems for TvP without affecting other matchups. Doesn't this affect mcores scouting ability in pvp?
Protoss has various other ways to scout that are easily accessible, mscore doesn't have to be a hero unit that does everything.
I would rather they nerf its vision affecting largely TvP rather than nerf blink cooldown that affects stalkers greatly for all matchups.
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Mothership Core vision radius decreased from 14 to 9
Good change, should be done long time ago.
Blink cooldown increased from 10 to 15
We have 8 seconds cooldown right now, because we play in faster mode (or even 7,5 not sure, somone should count it properly) which is too low, should be 11-12 seconds of REAL time, lets talk about real seconds not ingame !
I dont care how does it affect PVP or PVZ, from TVP point of view i see it completly imbalanced as it is now. Something has to be done about it, seeing pro players losing in decent tournaments everytime to blink-all in, it isnt funny to watch, even if they know about it much eariler, prepare bunkers, place some mines, cut scv production - they still lose, one base or two base doesnt matter - its too strong, doesnt require any skills at all, dont tell me blinking backward using 2 buttons is difficult.
I understand its hard to change such thinks as blink, after 4 years it has been like that BUT it is necessary.
Ask youself, why terrans players after scouting that twilight council is reasarching something overreact so badly - clearly sh... their pants? Because its the only protos all-in build, while executed properly, cannot be defended !
I asume its not gonna be fixed, because community of protos players doesnt agree (why any protos player would agree on making his race weaker? lol), and David Kim wont take the risk.
You will see in the near futhure, how badly terran does in CODE S and other decent events, remember my words.
Widow Mine splash damage component deals 40 + 40 shield damage
Good change, im still waiting to buff tanks with + shield damage - one small tweak and we could see mech in TVP. Its boring to see only bio played in this matchup.
Tempest ground weapon damage increased from 30 to 30+30-to-structures
This is one of the changes that does nothing, its just to give protos something while nerfing the other things, so kids wont cry too much on forums - nice move.
Hydralisk delay between attacks decreased from .83 to .75
Maybe it could help in ZVP a little bit, but in ZVT while Terran is turtling not gonna work at all, Hydralisk will die same fast to tanks as it is now. Zergs need buff on sky units, like Corruptor or Broodlord, or give Mutalisk separate attack vs air units.
Ps: fix swarmhost and photon overcharge - thanks
Edit: adding calculations done by Grumbels:
Game speed is x1.4, so a 10 second blink cooldown becomes 10 / 1.4 = ~7.15 seconds
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Players aren't magically going to figure out how to hold the ridiculous amount of allins Protoss have in the coming months or years, don't fall into this trap of "just wait." Protoss is dominating every server, foreigner Zergs and Protosses regularly take games off Koreans yet Terrans seldom do. You're right that Protoss struggled at the end WoL vs Zerg, but not due to people "learning how to play", but due to the power of the Infestor. TvP certainly wasn't Terran favoured.
There is still some truth in that, generally Macro races will take more time to master, since you need to figure out how to defend all the allins, but once no more pop up for some time, it will swing in favour of the macro race. Just look at Terran in BW.
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On February 12 2014 23:44 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +Players aren't magically going to figure out how to hold the ridiculous amount of allins Protoss have in the coming months or years, don't fall into this trap of "just wait." Protoss is dominating every server, foreigner Zergs and Protosses regularly take games off Koreans yet Terrans seldom do. You're right that Protoss struggled at the end WoL vs Zerg, but not due to people "learning how to play", but due to the power of the Infestor. TvP certainly wasn't Terran favoured. There is still some truth in that, generally Macro races will take more time to master, since you need to figure out how to defend all the allins, but once no more pop up for some time, it will swing in favour of the macro race. Just look at Terran in BW.
If one race is considered "macro" and the other one isn't there is something terribly wrong with balance.
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well its no fault of protoss but the race is built around having extremely potent all ins with the mechanics that surround it..... Can Speed up Tech / Speed up unit production and can Warp units anywhere on the map.... Incidentally The warp in mechanic is the absolute strongest mechanic in the game...... It Deletes the travel distance of a unit which translates into faster production time when attacking more specifically... so its the strongest Aggressive mechanic in the game i should say....
They also have a lot of Overlapping roles of units that have to be dealt with in different ways which also makes it extremely powerful....
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With the exception to the blink cool down change, I think the overall suggested changes are decent to be first tested out. They all seems quite logical.
Tempest might become a good siege unit that forces engagement who knows what it can bring us. Even if players do proxy stargate tempest rush, it would be interesting to watch.
Really looking forward to the widow mine buff, this is the first step in bringing mech to TvP.
Mine/Tank/Viking/Raven
Overall a cool patch.
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On February 13 2014 00:05 Pirfiktshon wrote:
well its no fault of protoss but the race is built around having extremely potent all ins with the mechanics that surround it..... Can Speed up Tech / Speed up unit production and can Warp units anywhere on the map.... Incidentally The warp in mechanic is the absolute strongest mechanic in the game...... It Deletes the travel distance of a unit which translates into faster production time when attacking more specifically... so its the strongest Aggressive mechanic in the game i should say....
They also have a lot of Overlapping roles of units that have to be dealt with in different ways which also makes it extremely powerful....
It's not that easy. Zerg has always had some of the fastest units in the game with short production times under 30seconds. For their allins they need only like 1-2 extra tech buildings/upgrades which is hard to scout to begin with, and on top of that they burst produce so that you can't scout an army-build up very easily. Add to that that banelings can be morphed in close proximity with 80splash to buildings. Yet Zergs did not really have very powerful allins before their opponents started playing more economy based styles.
And actually, same thing goes for Protoss against Terran. In the old days of TvP 2-3rax or 1-1-1 openings of Terran were all pretty good against all the Protoss cheeses, regardless warpgate or chronoboost.
Like 95% of the allins/rushes/cheeses/timings are metagame and BO reliant. The only exceptions to those are usually the ones that are near broken to begin with (Immortal/Sentry, Blink allin, Roach/baneling...)
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They should create benefits of not turning all your gates into warpgates.
Let`s say with gateways units would be a little faster to built but you can`t warp-in. You build like a terran.
With warpgates you would have the warp-in but the build time is a little bit slower.
That would make interesting choices for the Protoss to make.
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On February 12 2014 14:01 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 13:23 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 12 2014 13:14 Wombat_NI wrote:
He has a point, like or loathe them Blink Stalkers are close to the most microable and skill-scaling unit Protoss have. He has the kernel of a point, wrapped in a cocoon of an onion of encasings of non-points. Protoss do not routinely get nerfs to interesting things. Phoenixes and Warp Prisms both got buffed in/around HOTS. High Templar hasn't been touched. This nerf is only being considered as a measure of last resort, and although I think we'll come to that last resort, I don't think this is the nerf DK will end up going with. (I hope not, anyway!) Well yeah, it's not so much Protoss get nerfs to make them less interesting, more they don't really get tweaks to make their units more microable and rewarding to play. Phoenixes are close to the perfect harass unit that exists in SC2 so at least we have that, with other cute things like lifting your own units to save them. Speaking purely hypothetically, how would pre-snipe nerf Ghostmech fare against Swarmhost turtling? Snipe range is 11 right?
Well. Hard to say.
Depends on if Zerg adapts to it, I don't think it'd work (cloak won't work, and you still need to get close)
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On February 13 2014 00:25 b0ub0u wrote:
They should create benefits of not turning all your gates into warpgates.
Let`s say with gateways units would be a little faster to built but you can`t warp-in. You build like a terran.
With warpgates you would have the warp-in but the build time is a little bit slower.
That would make interesting choices for the Protoss to make.
No Energy + Shields and no regeneration for 20s for warpgated units, researching Warpgate increases Gateway Build time to the same speed as warpgate, Khaydarin Amulet could get back, or we get a research at Twilight/Robobay for ~250/250/120 that gives full strenght warp ins.
No changes to late game, early game warp weakened, trade of between warpin and gateways.
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On February 13 2014 00:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 00:05 Pirfiktshon wrote:
well its no fault of protoss but the race is built around having extremely potent all ins with the mechanics that surround it..... Can Speed up Tech / Speed up unit production and can Warp units anywhere on the map.... Incidentally The warp in mechanic is the absolute strongest mechanic in the game...... It Deletes the travel distance of a unit which translates into faster production time when attacking more specifically... so its the strongest Aggressive mechanic in the game i should say....
They also have a lot of Overlapping roles of units that have to be dealt with in different ways which also makes it extremely powerful.... It's not that easy. Zerg has always had some of the fastest units in the game with short production times under 30seconds. For their allins they need only like 1-2 extra tech buildings/upgrades which is hard to scout to begin with, and on top of that they burst produce so that you can't scout an army-build up very easily. Add to that that banelings can be morphed in close proximity with 80splash to buildings. Yet Zergs did not really have very powerful allins before their opponents started playing more economy based styles. And actually, same thing goes for Protoss against Terran. In the old days of TvP 2-3rax or 1-1-1 openings of Terran were all pretty good against all the Protoss cheeses, regardless warpgate or chronoboost. Like 95% of the allins/rushes/cheeses/timings are metagame and BO reliant. The only exceptions to those are usually the ones that are near broken to begin with (Immortal/Sentry, Blink allin, Roach/baneling...)
Actually, Daedulus showed us that Zerg all ins/aggression are weak because of natural chokes which lets Terran and Protoss to wall off/bunker. If it wasn't for that, mass Zergs would dominate like you said due to production speed and mobility. That is why Zerg usually have map control early game, they only thing holding them back is the wall.
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On February 13 2014 00:25 b0ub0u wrote:
They should create benefits of not turning all your gates into warpgates.
Let`s say with gateways units would be a little faster to built but you can`t warp-in. You build like a terran.
With warpgates you would have the warp-in but the build time is a little bit slower.
That would make interesting choices for the Protoss to make.
I guess it depends whether Protoss product is limited by building time or resources, I think it is the latter for most cases unless the building time is drastically different. I guess some timings should be affected
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EPT
