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David Kim made an og call
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Flat nerfs to anything interesting Protoss can do.
Flat buffs to things that aren't remotely interesting or viable.
Flat buffs Zerg.
Pretty much par for course, I'd say.
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Blizzard should host online tournaments on these maps, for like $100, get some volunteer community casters, whatever pros want to play in it. Pretty sure it would make their tests way better, and make people more aware and interested in trying the test map.
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On February 12 2014 04:01 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 03:31 Loccstana wrote:On February 12 2014 03:27 Wingblade wrote:On February 12 2014 03:17 Rowrin wrote:On February 12 2014 03:09 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
The biggest issue I have with most of their balance changes is that they don't try to patch out specific scenarios.
For example, Blink is a big problem in PvT, so they think to nerf MSC, Blink and buff mines. Well, great, but now PvP suffers very badly because of the Blink nerf, and now Stargate vs Stargate will be way too common and coinflippy. PvP was already in a great spot, but it will be ruined as a side-effect.
Swarm Hosts are a problem overall, so they buff Tempests not noticing that Tempests vs Bunkers will be insane, way harder to hold than Blink ever was for Terran. It also does not address SH vs Mech and the overall problem that the unit requires very little skill to get utility and makes for very boring, defensive games.
I am not sure I understand their direction with these changes because they break just as muchas they fix. Just make blink a longer research time (by like 15 seconds), make time warp harder to access in the early game or overall, make Swarm Hosts require more attention (faster locust respawn time when unburrowed, best case their current respawn rate), give Hydras more HP with slightly longer build time. PvP will always be balanced. PvT is completely broken. That is why they are making these changes. Period. PvP of course will change, but it will be balanced no matter what blizzard does to toss. They need to fix the issues with the other matchups. in regards to Tempests vs Bunkers: lolwat? The tempest change will most significantly affect swarmhosts by (hopefully) eating away at their protective wall of static D. PvT it will have almost no affect. No toss in their right mind will go for a tempest rush to attack a bunkered terran; no terran in their right mind is going to lose to a rushed tempest. It is like rushing battlecruisers on one base: just bad most of the time. mid-game tempests aren't going to be any good vs bio, and late-mid to late game terran will have vikings anyway if not for tempests then for colosi. Actually, proxy tempest builds are better than you would think. Sure they don't deal that much damage, but theres no way a marine could ever hit them. Which also means that this doesnt mean anything in PvT. Not because you can't do it, but because the marines can't fight back. Regardless of the Tempest's damage the bunker, or turrets, or whatever, should never be able to hit an offensive proxy tempest. You would need air units of some kind to combat this. I seen players like DeMuslim and Thorzain losing to this kind of retarded cheese too. Buffing tempest would be the most retarded thing to do. To be fair I've also seen Thorzain lose to Sjow playing Protoss
Sjow knows what (builds as well as the execution) work the best against Terran. It's not fair to imply anything about Thorzain's skill based on that.
To reply to the previous poster about Demulism and Thorzain losing to proxy tempests - it's just the wtf factor of something so far out the left field. Doubt they would fall for it again, since they could have moved their structures away from the dead-space where the tempests are camped and still be relatively fine (depending on how much damage they took in the process, of course).
Or even just an scv pull in response might work.
/edit
And proper scouting.
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On February 12 2014 11:13 Jerubaal wrote:
Flat nerfs to anything interesting Protoss can do.
Flat buffs to things that aren't remotely interesting or viable.
Flat buffs Zerg.
Pretty much par for course, I'd say.
They've been randomly buffing Protoss since HotS came out; warp prisms, oracles. So no, this is a good change of direction.
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On February 12 2014 11:13 Jerubaal wrote:
Flat nerfs to anything interesting Protoss can do.
Flat buffs to things that aren't remotely interesting or viable.
Flat buffs Zerg.
Pretty much par for course, I'd say.
Yeah this isn't a biased opinion...
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Northern Ireland26496 Posts
He has a point, like or loathe them Blink Stalkers are close to the most microable and skill-scaling unit Protoss have.
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I don't care if swarmhost aren't OP, I don't want to see them in the game like they are, they aren't fun to watch OR play against (somewhat fun to use though).
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On February 12 2014 12:08 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 04:01 Zealously wrote:On February 12 2014 03:31 Loccstana wrote:On February 12 2014 03:27 Wingblade wrote:On February 12 2014 03:17 Rowrin wrote:On February 12 2014 03:09 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
The biggest issue I have with most of their balance changes is that they don't try to patch out specific scenarios.
For example, Blink is a big problem in PvT, so they think to nerf MSC, Blink and buff mines. Well, great, but now PvP suffers very badly because of the Blink nerf, and now Stargate vs Stargate will be way too common and coinflippy. PvP was already in a great spot, but it will be ruined as a side-effect.
Swarm Hosts are a problem overall, so they buff Tempests not noticing that Tempests vs Bunkers will be insane, way harder to hold than Blink ever was for Terran. It also does not address SH vs Mech and the overall problem that the unit requires very little skill to get utility and makes for very boring, defensive games.
I am not sure I understand their direction with these changes because they break just as muchas they fix. Just make blink a longer research time (by like 15 seconds), make time warp harder to access in the early game or overall, make Swarm Hosts require more attention (faster locust respawn time when unburrowed, best case their current respawn rate), give Hydras more HP with slightly longer build time. PvP will always be balanced. PvT is completely broken. That is why they are making these changes. Period. PvP of course will change, but it will be balanced no matter what blizzard does to toss. They need to fix the issues with the other matchups. in regards to Tempests vs Bunkers: lolwat? The tempest change will most significantly affect swarmhosts by (hopefully) eating away at their protective wall of static D. PvT it will have almost no affect. No toss in their right mind will go for a tempest rush to attack a bunkered terran; no terran in their right mind is going to lose to a rushed tempest. It is like rushing battlecruisers on one base: just bad most of the time. mid-game tempests aren't going to be any good vs bio, and late-mid to late game terran will have vikings anyway if not for tempests then for colosi. Actually, proxy tempest builds are better than you would think. Sure they don't deal that much damage, but theres no way a marine could ever hit them. Which also means that this doesnt mean anything in PvT. Not because you can't do it, but because the marines can't fight back. Regardless of the Tempest's damage the bunker, or turrets, or whatever, should never be able to hit an offensive proxy tempest. You would need air units of some kind to combat this. I seen players like DeMuslim and Thorzain losing to this kind of retarded cheese too. Buffing tempest would be the most retarded thing to do. To be fair I've also seen Thorzain lose to Sjow playing Protoss Sjow knows what (builds as well as the execution) work the best against Terran. It's not fair to imply anything about Thorzain's skill based on that. To reply to the previous poster about Demulism and Thorzain losing to proxy tempests - it's just the wtf factor of something so far out the left field. Doubt they would fall for it again, since they could have moved their structures away from the dead-space where the tempests are camped and still be relatively fine (depending on how much damage they took in the process, of course). Or even just an scv pull in response might work. /edit And proper scouting.
Sjow also switched to Protoss for a bit and played it, and only switched back because of how frustrated he was with PvP....
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On February 12 2014 13:14 Wombat_NI wrote:
He has a point, like or loathe them Blink Stalkers are close to the most microable and skill-scaling unit Protoss have.
He has the kernel of a point, wrapped in a cocoon of an onion of encasings of non-points. Protoss do not routinely get nerfs to interesting things. Phoenixes and Warp Prisms both got buffed in/around HOTS. High Templar hasn't been touched. This nerf is only being considered as a measure of last resort, and although I think we'll come to that last resort, I don't think this is the nerf DK will end up going with. (I hope not, anyway!)
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Why is it okay to increase widow mine shield damage? lol I swear this is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. I hope it doesn't go though. I hate widow mines for how inexpensive they are and their damage output is just insane. If any changes they need to be nerfed imo. Sure they have a huge cool down and can be sniped by some units but when you can make 2 at a time does it really matter? It should require a tech lab and not be able to be produced with a reactor. Just my thoughts.
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make it so that everytime a stalker blinks, it loses 20 hp like stim. problem solved.
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On February 12 2014 13:20 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 12:08 plogamer wrote:On February 12 2014 04:01 Zealously wrote:On February 12 2014 03:31 Loccstana wrote:On February 12 2014 03:27 Wingblade wrote:On February 12 2014 03:17 Rowrin wrote:On February 12 2014 03:09 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
The biggest issue I have with most of their balance changes is that they don't try to patch out specific scenarios.
For example, Blink is a big problem in PvT, so they think to nerf MSC, Blink and buff mines. Well, great, but now PvP suffers very badly because of the Blink nerf, and now Stargate vs Stargate will be way too common and coinflippy. PvP was already in a great spot, but it will be ruined as a side-effect.
Swarm Hosts are a problem overall, so they buff Tempests not noticing that Tempests vs Bunkers will be insane, way harder to hold than Blink ever was for Terran. It also does not address SH vs Mech and the overall problem that the unit requires very little skill to get utility and makes for very boring, defensive games.
I am not sure I understand their direction with these changes because they break just as muchas they fix. Just make blink a longer research time (by like 15 seconds), make time warp harder to access in the early game or overall, make Swarm Hosts require more attention (faster locust respawn time when unburrowed, best case their current respawn rate), give Hydras more HP with slightly longer build time. PvP will always be balanced. PvT is completely broken. That is why they are making these changes. Period. PvP of course will change, but it will be balanced no matter what blizzard does to toss. They need to fix the issues with the other matchups. in regards to Tempests vs Bunkers: lolwat? The tempest change will most significantly affect swarmhosts by (hopefully) eating away at their protective wall of static D. PvT it will have almost no affect. No toss in their right mind will go for a tempest rush to attack a bunkered terran; no terran in their right mind is going to lose to a rushed tempest. It is like rushing battlecruisers on one base: just bad most of the time. mid-game tempests aren't going to be any good vs bio, and late-mid to late game terran will have vikings anyway if not for tempests then for colosi. Actually, proxy tempest builds are better than you would think. Sure they don't deal that much damage, but theres no way a marine could ever hit them. Which also means that this doesnt mean anything in PvT. Not because you can't do it, but because the marines can't fight back. Regardless of the Tempest's damage the bunker, or turrets, or whatever, should never be able to hit an offensive proxy tempest. You would need air units of some kind to combat this. I seen players like DeMuslim and Thorzain losing to this kind of retarded cheese too. Buffing tempest would be the most retarded thing to do. To be fair I've also seen Thorzain lose to Sjow playing Protoss Sjow knows what (builds as well as the execution) work the best against Terran. It's not fair to imply anything about Thorzain's skill based on that. To reply to the previous poster about Demulism and Thorzain losing to proxy tempests - it's just the wtf factor of something so far out the left field. Doubt they would fall for it again, since they could have moved their structures away from the dead-space where the tempests are camped and still be relatively fine (depending on how much damage they took in the process, of course). Or even just an scv pull in response might work. /edit And proper scouting. Sjow also switched to Protoss for a bit and played it, and only switched back because of how frustrated he was with PvP....
Because he knows PvT, doesn't mean he knows PvP. Protoss on TL are saying that PvP is in a great place rightnow - including TL writers. And I agree, PvP is great (Korean PvP, that is).
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On February 12 2014 13:30 Loccstana wrote:
make it so that everytime a stalker blinks, it loses 20 hp like stim. problem solved.
Maybe shield would be a nifty idea - still that would be counter-intuitive to using blink to preserve stalker hp.
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On February 12 2014 13:30 Loccstana wrote:
make it so that everytime a stalker blinks, it loses 20 hp like stim. problem solved.
Stim is primarily offensive, whereas Blink is primarily defensive. Logically, if there's going to be a drawback, it should be some kind of temporary attack penalty. But Stalkers' attack sucks plenty enough already in all cases but Blink all-in, so... probably not.
On February 12 2014 13:30 inSighTsc2 wrote:
Why is it okay to increase widow mine shield damage? lol I swear this is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. I hope it doesn't go though. I hate widow mines for how inexpensive they are and their damage output is just insane. If any changes they need to be nerfed imo. Sure they have a huge cool down and can be sniped by some units but when you can make 2 at a time does it really matter? It should require a tech lab and not be able to be produced with a reactor. Just my thoughts.
Someone tell David Kim, Zerg can make fifty of any unit at a time! All Zerg units need a nerf!
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I like the hydras buff and the rest are okay.
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On February 12 2014 12:08 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 04:01 Zealously wrote:On February 12 2014 03:31 Loccstana wrote:On February 12 2014 03:27 Wingblade wrote:On February 12 2014 03:17 Rowrin wrote:On February 12 2014 03:09 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
The biggest issue I have with most of their balance changes is that they don't try to patch out specific scenarios.
For example, Blink is a big problem in PvT, so they think to nerf MSC, Blink and buff mines. Well, great, but now PvP suffers very badly because of the Blink nerf, and now Stargate vs Stargate will be way too common and coinflippy. PvP was already in a great spot, but it will be ruined as a side-effect.
Swarm Hosts are a problem overall, so they buff Tempests not noticing that Tempests vs Bunkers will be insane, way harder to hold than Blink ever was for Terran. It also does not address SH vs Mech and the overall problem that the unit requires very little skill to get utility and makes for very boring, defensive games.
I am not sure I understand their direction with these changes because they break just as muchas they fix. Just make blink a longer research time (by like 15 seconds), make time warp harder to access in the early game or overall, make Swarm Hosts require more attention (faster locust respawn time when unburrowed, best case their current respawn rate), give Hydras more HP with slightly longer build time. PvP will always be balanced. PvT is completely broken. That is why they are making these changes. Period. PvP of course will change, but it will be balanced no matter what blizzard does to toss. They need to fix the issues with the other matchups. in regards to Tempests vs Bunkers: lolwat? The tempest change will most significantly affect swarmhosts by (hopefully) eating away at their protective wall of static D. PvT it will have almost no affect. No toss in their right mind will go for a tempest rush to attack a bunkered terran; no terran in their right mind is going to lose to a rushed tempest. It is like rushing battlecruisers on one base: just bad most of the time. mid-game tempests aren't going to be any good vs bio, and late-mid to late game terran will have vikings anyway if not for tempests then for colosi. Actually, proxy tempest builds are better than you would think. Sure they don't deal that much damage, but theres no way a marine could ever hit them. Which also means that this doesnt mean anything in PvT. Not because you can't do it, but because the marines can't fight back. Regardless of the Tempest's damage the bunker, or turrets, or whatever, should never be able to hit an offensive proxy tempest. You would need air units of some kind to combat this. I seen players like DeMuslim and Thorzain losing to this kind of retarded cheese too. Buffing tempest would be the most retarded thing to do. To be fair I've also seen Thorzain lose to Sjow playing Protoss Sjow knows what (builds as well as the execution) work the best against Terran. It's not fair to imply anything about Thorzain's skill based on that. To reply to the previous poster about Demulism and Thorzain losing to proxy tempests - it's just the wtf factor of something so far out the left field. Doubt they would fall for it again, since they could have moved their structures away from the dead-space where the tempests are camped and still be relatively fine (depending on how much damage they took in the process, of course). Or even just an scv pull in response might work. /edit And proper scouting.
Off the wall stuff can work against a pro player though, for instance once I watched Demuslim beat Scarlett with a mass viking build that kept her permanently supply blocked and she clearly had no idea what to do against it. Now, if he tried to do it a few more times you can bet she'd work out how to beat it because it's not really a legit strategy.
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On February 12 2014 12:13 Ovni wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 11:13 Jerubaal wrote:
Flat nerfs to anything interesting Protoss can do.
Flat buffs to things that aren't remotely interesting or viable.
Flat buffs Zerg.
Pretty much par for course, I'd say. They've been randomly buffing Protoss since HotS came out; warp prisms, oracles. So no, this is a good change of direction.
Yeah, they've been buffing them because their potential has been maxed out.
A lot of Protoss will tell you this same thing: It has nothing to do with balance or what's happening right now, it's what's going to happen months or years from now. We got told the entirety of WoL that Protoss was OP or balanced and consequently every interesting and dynamic strategy Protoss had was gutted. Finally, when all the timings were discovered, when all the all-ins were figured out and when everyone learned how to play, it turned out Protoss was garbage-tier, especially against Zerg. So when I see this patch, forgive my sense of deja vu.
Or maybe they will just keep changing things so the game never settles.
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Watching ProLeague last night I looked for times where a third blink was really needed. The first blink is whenever the player decides and 5 seconds isn't that long in most game situations to wait for the second. With the nerf, that second blink could be used to get out after doing damage instead of how they currently use it to get into a better location to do game ending damage.
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Northern Ireland26496 Posts
On February 12 2014 13:23 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 13:14 Wombat_NI wrote:
He has a point, like or loathe them Blink Stalkers are close to the most microable and skill-scaling unit Protoss have. He has the kernel of a point, wrapped in a cocoon of an onion of encasings of non-points. Protoss do not routinely get nerfs to interesting things. Phoenixes and Warp Prisms both got buffed in/around HOTS. High Templar hasn't been touched. This nerf is only being considered as a measure of last resort, and although I think we'll come to that last resort, I don't think this is the nerf DK will end up going with. (I hope not, anyway!)
Well yeah, it's not so much Protoss get nerfs to make them less interesting, more they don't really get tweaks to make their units more microable and rewarding to play. Phoenixes are close to the perfect harass unit that exists in SC2 so at least we have that, with other cute things like lifting your own units to save them.
Speaking purely hypothetically, how would pre-snipe nerf Ghostmech fare against Swarmhost turtling? Snipe range is 11 right?
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EPT
