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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 12 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote: GM has always been a questionable way to view balance because it's such a small sample set and players own multiple accounts. And still we have Protoss > Zerg > Terran on all servers for months, and with fairly similar percentages. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 12 2014 02:56 TheDwf wrote: And still we have Protoss > Zerg > Terran on all servers for months, and with fairly similar percentages. If the same number of very skilled players are playing the game, it wouldn't really change that much from season to season. There is a good chance that it won't change that much, even if this patch goes through with every change. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
For example, Blink is a big problem in PvT, so they think to nerf MSC, Blink and buff mines. Well, great, but now PvP suffers very badly because of the Blink nerf, and now Stargate vs Stargate will be way too common and coinflippy. PvP was already in a great spot, but it will be ruined as a side-effect. Swarm Hosts are a problem overall, so they buff Tempests not noticing that Tempests vs Bunkers will be insane, way harder to hold than Blink ever was for Terran. It also does not address SH vs Mech and the overall problem that the unit requires very little skill to get utility and makes for very boring, defensive games. I am not sure I understand their direction with these changes because they break just as muchas they fix. Just make blink a longer research time (by like 15 seconds), make time warp harder to access in the early game or overall, make Swarm Hosts require more attention (faster locust respawn time when unburrowed, best case their current respawn rate), give Hydras more HP with slightly longer build time. | ||
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Rowrin
United States280 Posts
On February 12 2014 03:09 SidewinderSC2 wrote: The biggest issue I have with most of their balance changes is that they don't try to patch out specific scenarios. For example, Blink is a big problem in PvT, so they think to nerf MSC, Blink and buff mines. Well, great, but now PvP suffers very badly because of the Blink nerf, and now Stargate vs Stargate will be way too common and coinflippy. PvP was already in a great spot, but it will be ruined as a side-effect. Swarm Hosts are a problem overall, so they buff Tempests not noticing that Tempests vs Bunkers will be insane, way harder to hold than Blink ever was for Terran. It also does not address SH vs Mech and the overall problem that the unit requires very little skill to get utility and makes for very boring, defensive games. I am not sure I understand their direction with these changes because they break just as muchas they fix. Just make blink a longer research time (by like 15 seconds), make time warp harder to access in the early game or overall, make Swarm Hosts require more attention (faster locust respawn time when unburrowed, best case their current respawn rate), give Hydras more HP with slightly longer build time. PvP will always be balanced. PvT is completely broken. That is why they are making these changes. Period. PvP of course will change, but it will be balanced no matter what blizzard does to toss. They need to fix the issues with the other matchups. in regards to Tempests vs Bunkers: lolwat? The tempest change will most significantly affect swarmhosts by (hopefully) eating away at their protective wall of static D. PvT it will have almost no affect. No toss in their right mind will go for a tempest rush to attack a bunkered terran; no terran in their right mind is going to lose to a rushed tempest. It is like rushing battlecruisers on one base: just bad most of the time. mid-game tempests aren't going to be any good vs bio, and late-mid to late game terran will have vikings anyway if not for tempests then for colosi. | ||
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Akaann
Switzerland82 Posts
Also very pleased that Blizzard is finally listening to the community (MSC Vision). Nearly can't believe that :D | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On February 12 2014 03:17 Rowrin wrote: PvP will always be balanced. PvT is completely broken. That is why they are making these changes. Period. PvP of course will change, but it will be balanced no matter what blizzard does to toss. They need to fix the issues with the other matchups. in regards to Tempests vs Bunkers: lolwat? The tempest change will most significantly affect swarmhosts by (hopefully) eating away at their protective wall of static D. PvT it will have almost no affect. No toss in their right mind will go for a tempest rush to attack a bunkered terran; no terran in their right mind is going to lose to a rushed tempest. It is like rushing battlecruisers on one base: just bad most of the time. mid-game tempests aren't going to be any good vs bio, and late-mid to late game terran will have vikings anyway if not for tempests then for colosi. Actually, proxy tempest builds are better than you would think. Sure they don't deal that much damage, but theres no way a marine could ever hit them. Which also means that this doesnt mean anything in PvT. Not because you can't do it, but because the marines can't fight back. Regardless of the Tempest's damage the bunker, or turrets, or whatever, should never be able to hit an offensive proxy tempest. You would need air units of some kind to combat this. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
On February 12 2014 03:17 Rowrin wrote: PvP will always be balanced. PvT is completely broken. That is why they are making these changes. Period. PvP of course will change, but it will be balanced no matter what blizzard does to toss. They need to fix the issues with the other matchups. in regards to Tempests vs Bunkers: lolwat? The tempest change will most significantly affect swarmhosts by (hopefully) eating away at their protective wall of static D. PvT it will have almost no affect. No toss in their right mind will go for a tempest rush to attack a bunkered terran; no terran in their right mind is going to lose to a rushed tempest. It is like rushing battlecruisers on one base: just bad most of the time. mid-game tempests aren't going to be any good vs bio, and late-mid to late game terran will have vikings anyway if not for tempests then for colosi. PvP will always be balanced? Is your logic that Protoss wins 50% of the time? the reason not everyone opens Stargate in PvP is because it is really hard to stay on top of a good Blink build with it. Tell me why people wouldn't open Stargate every game in PvP. Phoenix vs Phoenix is even dumber than Muta vs Muta, so, yes, it will be imbalanced because one option will clearly be better than everything else. You also realize that with the buff, Tempests will kill an infinite amount of bunkers because they will never get hit by anything, and it will happen so quickly that any amount of Stalkers will walk over the unprotected Marine force at any time before stim. the only reason Terran doesn't die to a straightforward gateway rush is becuase they have bunkers, but if you can kill the bunkers in no time and cancel stim with the tempests without taking any damage, what now? Not to mention any reactor, tech lab or depot is dead in like 5 seconds.. the terran will lose all of their important buildings and never be able to hit the tempests. | ||
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Loccstana
United States833 Posts
On February 12 2014 03:27 Wingblade wrote: Actually, proxy tempest builds are better than you would think. Sure they don't deal that much damage, but theres no way a marine could ever hit them. Which also means that this doesnt mean anything in PvT. Not because you can't do it, but because the marines can't fight back. Regardless of the Tempest's damage the bunker, or turrets, or whatever, should never be able to hit an offensive proxy tempest. You would need air units of some kind to combat this. I seen players like DeMuslim and Thorzain losing to this kind of retarded cheese too. Buffing tempest would be the most retarded thing to do. | ||
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Akaann
Switzerland82 Posts
On February 12 2014 03:31 Loccstana wrote: I seen players like DeMuslim and Thorzain losing to this kind of retarded cheese too. Buffing tempest would be the most retarded thing to do. The only reason a Pro loses to this strategy is, they aren't used to it and don't knwo what to do against it. I'm sure when the buff goes through it will take one or two week till the build is figured out and than you won't ever see it again on prolevel... | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On February 12 2014 03:31 Loccstana wrote: I seen players like DeMuslim and Thorzain losing to this kind of retarded cheese too. Buffing tempest would be the most retarded thing to do. This particular buff has barely any effect on this build anyways, no building should ever be able to hit a tempest. I guess it would be harder to stall with structures if they died quicker, but you have to get air units out or you will lose regardless of what damage Tempests deal to structures. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
On February 12 2014 03:38 Akaann wrote: The only reason a Pro loses to this strategy is, they aren't used to it and don't knwo what to do against it. I'm sure when the buff goes through it will take one or two week till the build is figured out and than you won't ever see it again on prolevel... So how do you stop 2 tempests from killing every add-on and supply depot in a couple of shots? No stim, single-file marines, no bunkers... a simple gateway force walks in at any time Terran has no bunkers and no stim, or just no supply because of so many missing depots. | ||
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Rowrin
United States280 Posts
PvP will always be balanced? Is your logic that Protoss wins 50% of the time? the reason not everyone opens Stargate in PvP is because it is really hard to stay on top of a good Blink build with it. Tell me why people wouldn't open Stargate every game in PvP. Phoenix vs Phoenix is even dumber than Muta vs Muta, so, yes, it will be imbalanced because one option will clearly be better than everything else. Woah-Kay (roflmao) that is not an imbalance. That is called a build-order-loss. Just so you know, protoss is not the only one that has these. They exist in every matchup, toss are not special snowflakes when it comes to these. I guess if you want to blame losing pvp on protoss being too op you can though :\ You also realize that with the buff, Tempests will kill an infinite amount of bunkers because they will never get hit by anything, and it will happen so quickly that any amount of Stalkers will walk over the unprotected Marine force at any time before stim. the only reason Terran doesn't die to a straightforward gateway rush is becuase they have bunkers, but if you can kill the bunkers in no time and cancel stim with the tempests without taking any damage, what now? Not to mention any reactor, tech lab or depot is dead in like 5 seconds.. the terran will lose all of their important buildings and never be able to hit the tempests. My bad, didn't know you could rush tier 3, still 4 gate on time and not make it look fishy at all by say expanding. Yup. | ||
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
On February 12 2014 03:42 SidewinderSC2 wrote: So how do you stop 2 tempests from killing every add-on and supply depot in a couple of shots? No stim, single-file marines, no bunkers... a simple gateway force walks in at any time Terran has no bunkers and no stim, or just no supply because of so many missing depots. Dont position your valuable addons at the border of your main! Mostly foreigners are prone to place their stim rax in the most retarded places. Always think about "what if..." and then at least place the stim rax safely near your CC or the map edge. If that doenst help/work, then the allin or the map will get fixed. Edit: and ofc scouting, just listen to Plansix. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 12 2014 03:42 SidewinderSC2 wrote: So how do you stop 2 tempests from killing every add-on and supply depot in a couple of shots? No stim, single-file marines, no bunkers... a simple gateway force walks in at any time Terran has no bunkers and no stim, or just no supply because of so many missing depots. The same way Protoss deal with proxy Thor, scout it and respond. Come on, that's two units that cost 600/400 and have excessive built times. Hell, the fleet beacon cost 300/200. If you don't have some sort of tech by that point, you're doing something wrong. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On February 12 2014 03:51 Plansix wrote: The same way Protoss deal with proxy Thor, scout it and respond. Come on, that's two units that cost 600/400 and have excessive built times. Hell, the fleet beacon cost 300/200. If you don't have some sort of tech by that point, you're doing something wrong. Yeah, not sure how the Terran doesn't have stim done when TWO tempests are out. They are missing like 10 stalkers worth from their army, pretty sure 10 stalkers would take structures out much faster. The blink stalkers timings now start with like 10-12 stalker at most, with 2 tempests, you are looking at 2-3 stalker a max. I think even without stim and bunkers, the bio would do fine. Hell, even 3CC build would have enough to hold. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On February 12 2014 03:31 Loccstana wrote: I seen players like DeMuslim and Thorzain losing to this kind of retarded cheese too. Buffing tempest would be the most retarded thing to do. To be fair I've also seen Thorzain lose to Sjow playing Protoss | ||
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CriMsoN sc2
Japan10 Posts
On February 12 2014 01:53 Plansix wrote: At some point in every ladder session, you do play people close to your skill level. The MMR system seeks to find you harder and harder opponents until you lose, but isn't going to match a masters player against a silver leaguer just to make that happen. The system has to have some idea of how skilled players are or it wouldn't work at all. FYI ever since MMR has implemented, I kind of feel like the gap of skill level in opponents you face in ladder has greatly increased. Reason for this is, let's say I often stop playing for 3day~week and then theoretically since my MMR decays I should be matching against someone whos slightly worse than week ago right? In reality it's yes and no. I've been hitting GM more and more frequently than past seasons because some of those GMs have not played for may be ~2weeks or so that their MMR decays so much enough to match my decayed MMR. I go to KR server, my rank there is like 75th master with 700bonus pool since I just played placement and left it for months. I randomly felt like playing on KR and boom 2nd opponent I play against is KR GM whos legitmately playing his race and not lossbotting. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 12 2014 04:01 Zealously wrote: To be fair I've also seen Thorzain lose to Sjow playing Protoss He also lost once to Vibe's bronze league brother doing an 8 pool. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 12 2014 04:18 Whitewing wrote: He also lost once to Vibe's bronze league brother doing an 8 pool. I think we can safely say that every game demuslim streams might not be his highest level play. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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