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On February 12 2014 04:27 Faust852 wrote:
I would prefer some nerf in the SH tho.
Day 9 seems to be asking a lot of questions about how to fix the swarm host on twitter and on his stream. I wouldn't be shocked if Blizzard asked him for some ideas and he is crowding sourcing it.
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On February 12 2014 04:27 Faust852 wrote:
I would prefer some nerf in the SH tho.
I would prefer capes on my banelings. Maybe next time.
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On February 12 2014 04:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 04:27 Faust852 wrote:
I would prefer some nerf in the SH tho. Day 9 seems to be asking a lot of questions about how to fix the swarm host on twitter and on his stream. I wouldn't be shocked if Blizzard asked him for some ideas and he is crowding sourcing it.
remove locust, make it a ~9-11range GtA, GtG low-mid damage siege weapon. Keep the free unit feel by letting it shoot flying locusts that return to the swarm host, but are invincible.
And if burrowed, those flying locusts circle the Swarm Host and protect it (by rapidly attacking enemys close to the SH).
Helps with air and if properly done helps with roaches, helps with mech, helps with VR if you throw in some extra to armored.
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Give us Lurkers. We always have Vipers to deal with tanks if they become fashionable again. Lurkers would be nice to have vs T, P and Z while swarm hosts only useful vs P and mech T. Lurkers will be useful in all match ups.
I think I would prefer 10hp to Hydras vs the attack damage. Its usually storm that does you in. You can always get some banes if your roaches can survive long enough for the zealots to die.
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Northern Ireland26028 Posts
On February 12 2014 04:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 04:27 Faust852 wrote:
I would prefer some nerf in the SH tho. Day 9 seems to be asking a lot of questions about how to fix the swarm host on twitter and on his stream. I wouldn't be shocked if Blizzard asked him for some ideas and he is crowding sourcing it.
What, Day9 is being critical of the game? Well at least that's one of the harbingers of the apocalypse down, going to start really shitting myself if a foreigner wins a major tournament anytime soon.
Actually to be fair, he's really just canvassing opinion from others, possibly to reflect a deep unease in his psyche at having witnessed one too many Shost games. I've always felt Day hasn't really used his position of potential influence as much as he could have possibly. It's hard to know what his real opinions are on the game/balance, but he's surely had more private qualms with aspects of the game in the previous 3 years than he's ever expressed, at least publicly.
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I would cancel blink nerf, as the spell Never been the problem. The problem being the cost of the All in due not needing obs Like in WoL. With the vision nerf, the blink All in Will hit early on and its Still hard to stop
I would remove the MSC from the game. Give PO to nexus directly for cost of their own mana. (saw someone post This idea before in some of these threads).
ps. Really pain in the ass to post With phone... Damn autocorrect....
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On February 12 2014 05:58 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 04:35 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2014 04:27 Faust852 wrote:
I would prefer some nerf in the SH tho. Day 9 seems to be asking a lot of questions about how to fix the swarm host on twitter and on his stream. I wouldn't be shocked if Blizzard asked him for some ideas and he is crowding sourcing it. What, Day9 is being critical of the game? Well at least that's one of the harbingers of the apocalypse down, going to start really shitting myself if a foreigner wins a major tournament anytime soon. Actually to be fair, he's really just canvassing opinion from others, possibly to reflect a deep unease in his psyche at having witnessed one too many Shost games. I've always felt Day hasn't really used his position of potential influence as much as he could have possibly. It's hard to know what his real opinions are on the game/balance, but he's surely had more private qualms with aspects of the game in the previous 3 years than he's ever expressed, at least publicly.
He is of the philosophy that complaining rarely if ever accomplishes anything, and will focus pretty much exclusively on what you can do with what happens to be available. It's an attitude I can certainly respect and commend, but I feel like he's taken it to an extreme, where he refuses to acknowledge imbalance or design issues even as possibilities. Perhaps it's to maintain an image, perhaps he sees himself as a counterbalance to the sometimes rather gloom and doom laden community, perhaps he truly thinks the game is that awesome, though I sincerely doubt that.
One thing he is not though, and that's stupid. The writing is on the wall, any idiot can see what will happen in the long run if SH turtle becomes standard meta. If he and people like TB(who has been outspoken about this, to his credit) and other influential people in the scene would be more vocal about stuff like this, it might help. Probably not, but we're kind of grasping for straws at this point.
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If the MSC vision nerf is not enough to fix blink play the next thing to look at should not be blink but the timewarp spell instead. This spell plays a huge role in the strength of these all ins. SCVs are not able to connect to the stalkers, and bio is not able to micro. This is obviously very bad.
I would love to see this spell removed and replaced by something else. It's far to similar to forcefields anyway, and far to easy to execute.
The Energize spell from the beta would be a interesting replacement. The MSC would be able to fill up the energy of a caster by a certain amount for a certain amount of its own energy. The numbers should be playtested obviously.
This would help toss in certain key aspects:
-A few extra forcefields basically replace the function of timewarp. They might even be better in certain situations.
-The energy could be used to scout with hallucination
-It would help HT play. This might be especially important if you keep the recent Ghost change and a possible Hydra buff in mind.
These change would make blink all ins less deadly for sure, while toss gains valuable other options.
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On February 12 2014 03:30 SidewinderSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 03:17 Rowrin wrote:On February 12 2014 03:09 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
The biggest issue I have with most of their balance changes is that they don't try to patch out specific scenarios.
For example, Blink is a big problem in PvT, so they think to nerf MSC, Blink and buff mines. Well, great, but now PvP suffers very badly because of the Blink nerf, and now Stargate vs Stargate will be way too common and coinflippy. PvP was already in a great spot, but it will be ruined as a side-effect.
Swarm Hosts are a problem overall, so they buff Tempests not noticing that Tempests vs Bunkers will be insane, way harder to hold than Blink ever was for Terran. It also does not address SH vs Mech and the overall problem that the unit requires very little skill to get utility and makes for very boring, defensive games.
I am not sure I understand their direction with these changes because they break just as muchas they fix. Just make blink a longer research time (by like 15 seconds), make time warp harder to access in the early game or overall, make Swarm Hosts require more attention (faster locust respawn time when unburrowed, best case their current respawn rate), give Hydras more HP with slightly longer build time. PvP will always be balanced. PvT is completely broken. That is why they are making these changes. Period. PvP of course will change, but it will be balanced no matter what blizzard does to toss. They need to fix the issues with the other matchups. in regards to Tempests vs Bunkers: lolwat? The tempest change will most significantly affect swarmhosts by (hopefully) eating away at their protective wall of static D. PvT it will have almost no affect. No toss in their right mind will go for a tempest rush to attack a bunkered terran; no terran in their right mind is going to lose to a rushed tempest. It is like rushing battlecruisers on one base: just bad most of the time. mid-game tempests aren't going to be any good vs bio, and late-mid to late game terran will have vikings anyway if not for tempests then for colosi. PvP will always be balanced? Is your logic that Protoss wins 50% of the time? the reason not everyone opens Stargate in PvP is because it is really hard to stay on top of a good Blink build with it. Tell me why people wouldn't open Stargate every game in PvP. Phoenix vs Phoenix is even dumber than Muta vs Muta, so, yes, it will be imbalanced because one option will clearly be better than everything else. You also realize that with the buff, Tempests will kill an infinite amount of bunkers because they will never get hit by anything, and it will happen so quickly that any amount of Stalkers will walk over the unprotected Marine force at any time before stim. the only reason Terran doesn't die to a straightforward gateway rush is becuase they have bunkers, but if you can kill the bunkers in no time and cancel stim with the tempests without taking any damage, what now? Not to mention any reactor, tech lab or depot is dead in like 5 seconds.. the terran will lose all of their important buildings and never be able to hit the tempests.
what the hell, are we really talking about PvP balance now? I mean for real, you argue that some builds are harder to pull of then others and some counter others? And say MIRROR isnt balanced anymore?
Where were u guys, when a 35 APM requiring 4Gate, DT Rush, Blink allin, Immortal rush whatever killed the way terrans left and right because they didn't learn yet how to adapt?
Lets just say, mirrors are always balanced and will always be, if there is a stronger build than any other, every opening should go for it (already do, since no Toss will ever open Nex first). Talking about build orders and adaptions. If there are builds not possible anymore, then don't make them, or don't complain about build order losses. I don't argue why I don't have a chance against a blink allin with a CC First, Rax CC Build. In Mirrors there is no real inbalance, only build order losses
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On February 12 2014 06:17 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 05:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2014 04:35 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2014 04:27 Faust852 wrote:
I would prefer some nerf in the SH tho. Day 9 seems to be asking a lot of questions about how to fix the swarm host on twitter and on his stream. I wouldn't be shocked if Blizzard asked him for some ideas and he is crowding sourcing it. What, Day9 is being critical of the game? Well at least that's one of the harbingers of the apocalypse down, going to start really shitting myself if a foreigner wins a major tournament anytime soon. Actually to be fair, he's really just canvassing opinion from others, possibly to reflect a deep unease in his psyche at having witnessed one too many Shost games. I've always felt Day hasn't really used his position of potential influence as much as he could have possibly. It's hard to know what his real opinions are on the game/balance, but he's surely had more private qualms with aspects of the game in the previous 3 years than he's ever expressed, at least publicly. He is of the philosophy that complaining rarely if ever accomplishes anything, and will focus pretty much exclusively on what you can do with what happens to be available. It's an attitude I can certainly respect and commend, but I feel like he's taken it to an extreme, where he refuses to acknowledge imbalance or design issues even as possibilities. Perhaps it's to maintain an image, perhaps he sees himself as a counterbalance to the sometimes rather gloom and doom laden community, perhaps he truly thinks the game is that awesome, though I sincerely doubt that. One thing he is not though, and that's stupid. The writing is on the wall, any idiot can see what will happen in the long run if SH turtle becomes standard meta. If he and people like TB(who has been outspoken about this, to his credit) and other influential people in the scene would be more vocal about stuff like this, it might help. Probably not, but we're kind of grasping for straws at this point.
Noone's grasping for straws. The game is pretty amazing overall. TvP balance is a balance problem, ZvP and TvZ having a little too many stalemate or near stalemate situations has to be watched and should be adressed if it continues.
None of those is a major concern.
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I'm happy to see Blizzards balance team leaving its comfort zone and increasing their communication with us. Please keep that spirit up for as long as you can!
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On February 12 2014 06:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 06:17 Squat wrote:On February 12 2014 05:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2014 04:35 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2014 04:27 Faust852 wrote:
I would prefer some nerf in the SH tho. Day 9 seems to be asking a lot of questions about how to fix the swarm host on twitter and on his stream. I wouldn't be shocked if Blizzard asked him for some ideas and he is crowding sourcing it. What, Day9 is being critical of the game? Well at least that's one of the harbingers of the apocalypse down, going to start really shitting myself if a foreigner wins a major tournament anytime soon. Actually to be fair, he's really just canvassing opinion from others, possibly to reflect a deep unease in his psyche at having witnessed one too many Shost games. I've always felt Day hasn't really used his position of potential influence as much as he could have possibly. It's hard to know what his real opinions are on the game/balance, but he's surely had more private qualms with aspects of the game in the previous 3 years than he's ever expressed, at least publicly. He is of the philosophy that complaining rarely if ever accomplishes anything, and will focus pretty much exclusively on what you can do with what happens to be available. It's an attitude I can certainly respect and commend, but I feel like he's taken it to an extreme, where he refuses to acknowledge imbalance or design issues even as possibilities. Perhaps it's to maintain an image, perhaps he sees himself as a counterbalance to the sometimes rather gloom and doom laden community, perhaps he truly thinks the game is that awesome, though I sincerely doubt that. One thing he is not though, and that's stupid. The writing is on the wall, any idiot can see what will happen in the long run if SH turtle becomes standard meta. If he and people like TB(who has been outspoken about this, to his credit) and other influential people in the scene would be more vocal about stuff like this, it might help. Probably not, but we're kind of grasping for straws at this point. Noone's grasping for straws. The game is pretty amazing overall. TvP balance is a balance problem, ZvP and TvZ having a little too many stalemate or near stalemate situations has to be watched and should be adressed if it continues. None of those is a major concern.
Absolutely agree. It is also quite amazing how the viewernumbers grow while this epic turtle games are going on. While SK v Reality was going on the number reached 28000 and while stephano was playing firecake for 2:40 h with nearly pure SH vs SH to number also grew steadily.
These long SH games also do not look that boring from the players perspective. If you watch Stephano play you really see that he is doing a lot at several different places. A lot of the frustration also has to do with the fact that neither a lot of pro players nor the casters have a real clue what to do and what is going on in the later stages of these games.
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On February 12 2014 06:55 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 06:41 Big J wrote:On February 12 2014 06:17 Squat wrote:On February 12 2014 05:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2014 04:35 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2014 04:27 Faust852 wrote:
I would prefer some nerf in the SH tho. Day 9 seems to be asking a lot of questions about how to fix the swarm host on twitter and on his stream. I wouldn't be shocked if Blizzard asked him for some ideas and he is crowding sourcing it. What, Day9 is being critical of the game? Well at least that's one of the harbingers of the apocalypse down, going to start really shitting myself if a foreigner wins a major tournament anytime soon. Actually to be fair, he's really just canvassing opinion from others, possibly to reflect a deep unease in his psyche at having witnessed one too many Shost games. I've always felt Day hasn't really used his position of potential influence as much as he could have possibly. It's hard to know what his real opinions are on the game/balance, but he's surely had more private qualms with aspects of the game in the previous 3 years than he's ever expressed, at least publicly. He is of the philosophy that complaining rarely if ever accomplishes anything, and will focus pretty much exclusively on what you can do with what happens to be available. It's an attitude I can certainly respect and commend, but I feel like he's taken it to an extreme, where he refuses to acknowledge imbalance or design issues even as possibilities. Perhaps it's to maintain an image, perhaps he sees himself as a counterbalance to the sometimes rather gloom and doom laden community, perhaps he truly thinks the game is that awesome, though I sincerely doubt that. One thing he is not though, and that's stupid. The writing is on the wall, any idiot can see what will happen in the long run if SH turtle becomes standard meta. If he and people like TB(who has been outspoken about this, to his credit) and other influential people in the scene would be more vocal about stuff like this, it might help. Probably not, but we're kind of grasping for straws at this point. Noone's grasping for straws. The game is pretty amazing overall. TvP balance is a balance problem, ZvP and TvZ having a little too many stalemate or near stalemate situations has to be watched and should be adressed if it continues. None of those is a major concern. Absolutely agree. It is also quite amazing how the viewernumbers grow while this epic turtle games are going on. While SK v Reality was going on the number reached 28000 and while stephano was playing firecake for 2:40 h with nearly pure SH vs SH to number also grew steadily. These long SH games also do not look that boring from the players perspective. If you watch Stephano play you really see that he is doing a lot at several different places. A lot of the frustration also has to do with the fact that neither a lot of pro players nor the casters have a real clue what to do and what is going on in the later stages of these games.
Once the novelty wears off and people realize that it's (maybe) worse than BL/Infestor viewer numbers will plummet again lol.
However, I also agree that overall the game is in a pretty good place, and the changes proposed here could spice things up even more.
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Northern Ireland26028 Posts
On February 12 2014 06:17 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 05:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2014 04:35 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2014 04:27 Faust852 wrote:
I would prefer some nerf in the SH tho. Day 9 seems to be asking a lot of questions about how to fix the swarm host on twitter and on his stream. I wouldn't be shocked if Blizzard asked him for some ideas and he is crowding sourcing it. What, Day9 is being critical of the game? Well at least that's one of the harbingers of the apocalypse down, going to start really shitting myself if a foreigner wins a major tournament anytime soon. Actually to be fair, he's really just canvassing opinion from others, possibly to reflect a deep unease in his psyche at having witnessed one too many Shost games. I've always felt Day hasn't really used his position of potential influence as much as he could have possibly. It's hard to know what his real opinions are on the game/balance, but he's surely had more private qualms with aspects of the game in the previous 3 years than he's ever expressed, at least publicly. He is of the philosophy that complaining rarely if ever accomplishes anything, and will focus pretty much exclusively on what you can do with what happens to be available. It's an attitude I can certainly respect and commend, but I feel like he's taken it to an extreme, where he refuses to acknowledge imbalance or design issues even as possibilities. Perhaps it's to maintain an image, perhaps he sees himself as a counterbalance to the sometimes rather gloom and doom laden community, perhaps he truly thinks the game is that awesome, though I sincerely doubt that. One thing he is not though, and that's stupid. The writing is on the wall, any idiot can see what will happen in the long run if SH turtle becomes standard meta. If he and people like TB(who has been outspoken about this, to his credit) and other influential people in the scene would be more vocal about stuff like this, it might help. Probably not, but we're kind of grasping for straws at this point.
It's 100% a great attitude to have when playing the game, really helps you improve and is generally a positive mentality to have, better than mine for sure. I just think he's previously held his tongue when perhaps he shouldn't have, indeed quite a few of the bigger personalities I believe this is true of to a degree. No beef with them, it is their livelihood after all!
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China6330 Posts
On February 12 2014 06:55 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 06:41 Big J wrote:On February 12 2014 06:17 Squat wrote:On February 12 2014 05:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2014 04:35 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2014 04:27 Faust852 wrote:
I would prefer some nerf in the SH tho. Day 9 seems to be asking a lot of questions about how to fix the swarm host on twitter and on his stream. I wouldn't be shocked if Blizzard asked him for some ideas and he is crowding sourcing it. What, Day9 is being critical of the game? Well at least that's one of the harbingers of the apocalypse down, going to start really shitting myself if a foreigner wins a major tournament anytime soon. Actually to be fair, he's really just canvassing opinion from others, possibly to reflect a deep unease in his psyche at having witnessed one too many Shost games. I've always felt Day hasn't really used his position of potential influence as much as he could have possibly. It's hard to know what his real opinions are on the game/balance, but he's surely had more private qualms with aspects of the game in the previous 3 years than he's ever expressed, at least publicly. He is of the philosophy that complaining rarely if ever accomplishes anything, and will focus pretty much exclusively on what you can do with what happens to be available. It's an attitude I can certainly respect and commend, but I feel like he's taken it to an extreme, where he refuses to acknowledge imbalance or design issues even as possibilities. Perhaps it's to maintain an image, perhaps he sees himself as a counterbalance to the sometimes rather gloom and doom laden community, perhaps he truly thinks the game is that awesome, though I sincerely doubt that. One thing he is not though, and that's stupid. The writing is on the wall, any idiot can see what will happen in the long run if SH turtle becomes standard meta. If he and people like TB(who has been outspoken about this, to his credit) and other influential people in the scene would be more vocal about stuff like this, it might help. Probably not, but we're kind of grasping for straws at this point. Noone's grasping for straws. The game is pretty amazing overall. TvP balance is a balance problem, ZvP and TvZ having a little too many stalemate or near stalemate situations has to be watched and should be adressed if it continues. None of those is a major concern. Absolutely agree. It is also quite amazing how the viewernumbers grow while this epic turtle games are going on. While SK v Reality was going on the number reached 28000 and while stephano was playing firecake for 2:40 h with nearly pure SH vs SH to number also grew steadily. These long SH games also do not look that boring from the players perspective. If you watch Stephano play you really see that he is doing a lot at several different places. A lot of the frustration also has to do with the fact that neither a lot of pro players nor the casters have a real clue what to do and what is going on in the later stages of these games.
Well the good thing is you probably won't see SH turtle in ZvZ.
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On February 12 2014 07:21 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 06:55 submarine wrote:On February 12 2014 06:41 Big J wrote:On February 12 2014 06:17 Squat wrote:On February 12 2014 05:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2014 04:35 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2014 04:27 Faust852 wrote:
I would prefer some nerf in the SH tho. Day 9 seems to be asking a lot of questions about how to fix the swarm host on twitter and on his stream. I wouldn't be shocked if Blizzard asked him for some ideas and he is crowding sourcing it. What, Day9 is being critical of the game? Well at least that's one of the harbingers of the apocalypse down, going to start really shitting myself if a foreigner wins a major tournament anytime soon. Actually to be fair, he's really just canvassing opinion from others, possibly to reflect a deep unease in his psyche at having witnessed one too many Shost games. I've always felt Day hasn't really used his position of potential influence as much as he could have possibly. It's hard to know what his real opinions are on the game/balance, but he's surely had more private qualms with aspects of the game in the previous 3 years than he's ever expressed, at least publicly. He is of the philosophy that complaining rarely if ever accomplishes anything, and will focus pretty much exclusively on what you can do with what happens to be available. It's an attitude I can certainly respect and commend, but I feel like he's taken it to an extreme, where he refuses to acknowledge imbalance or design issues even as possibilities. Perhaps it's to maintain an image, perhaps he sees himself as a counterbalance to the sometimes rather gloom and doom laden community, perhaps he truly thinks the game is that awesome, though I sincerely doubt that. One thing he is not though, and that's stupid. The writing is on the wall, any idiot can see what will happen in the long run if SH turtle becomes standard meta. If he and people like TB(who has been outspoken about this, to his credit) and other influential people in the scene would be more vocal about stuff like this, it might help. Probably not, but we're kind of grasping for straws at this point. Noone's grasping for straws. The game is pretty amazing overall. TvP balance is a balance problem, ZvP and TvZ having a little too many stalemate or near stalemate situations has to be watched and should be adressed if it continues. None of those is a major concern. Absolutely agree. It is also quite amazing how the viewernumbers grow while this epic turtle games are going on. While SK v Reality was going on the number reached 28000 and while stephano was playing firecake for 2:40 h with nearly pure SH vs SH to number also grew steadily. These long SH games also do not look that boring from the players perspective. If you watch Stephano play you really see that he is doing a lot at several different places. A lot of the frustration also has to do with the fact that neither a lot of pro players nor the casters have a real clue what to do and what is going on in the later stages of these games. Once the novelty wears off and people realize that it's (maybe) worse than BL/Infestor viewer numbers will plummet again lol. However, I also agree that overall the game is in a pretty good place, and the changes proposed here could spice things up even more.
SH is not even close to being BL/infestor at all..... fungle and upgraded infested marines were the issue that made the combo op.
SH turtle is really the only thing zerg has against the ultimate late game sky toss/temp/colossi army.
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On February 12 2014 06:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 06:17 Squat wrote:On February 12 2014 05:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2014 04:35 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2014 04:27 Faust852 wrote:
I would prefer some nerf in the SH tho. Day 9 seems to be asking a lot of questions about how to fix the swarm host on twitter and on his stream. I wouldn't be shocked if Blizzard asked him for some ideas and he is crowding sourcing it. What, Day9 is being critical of the game? Well at least that's one of the harbingers of the apocalypse down, going to start really shitting myself if a foreigner wins a major tournament anytime soon. Actually to be fair, he's really just canvassing opinion from others, possibly to reflect a deep unease in his psyche at having witnessed one too many Shost games. I've always felt Day hasn't really used his position of potential influence as much as he could have possibly. It's hard to know what his real opinions are on the game/balance, but he's surely had more private qualms with aspects of the game in the previous 3 years than he's ever expressed, at least publicly. He is of the philosophy that complaining rarely if ever accomplishes anything, and will focus pretty much exclusively on what you can do with what happens to be available. It's an attitude I can certainly respect and commend, but I feel like he's taken it to an extreme, where he refuses to acknowledge imbalance or design issues even as possibilities. Perhaps it's to maintain an image, perhaps he sees himself as a counterbalance to the sometimes rather gloom and doom laden community, perhaps he truly thinks the game is that awesome, though I sincerely doubt that. One thing he is not though, and that's stupid. The writing is on the wall, any idiot can see what will happen in the long run if SH turtle becomes standard meta. If he and people like TB(who has been outspoken about this, to his credit) and other influential people in the scene would be more vocal about stuff like this, it might help. Probably not, but we're kind of grasping for straws at this point. Noone's grasping for straws. The game is pretty amazing overall. TvP balance is a balance problem, ZvP and TvZ having a little too many stalemate or near stalemate situations has to be watched and should be adressed if it continues. None of those is a major concern.
This is almost criminally naive, not to mention somewhat difficult to take seriously due to the rampant fanboyism.
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On February 12 2014 07:28 digmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 06:55 submarine wrote:On February 12 2014 06:41 Big J wrote:On February 12 2014 06:17 Squat wrote:On February 12 2014 05:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2014 04:35 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2014 04:27 Faust852 wrote:
I would prefer some nerf in the SH tho. Day 9 seems to be asking a lot of questions about how to fix the swarm host on twitter and on his stream. I wouldn't be shocked if Blizzard asked him for some ideas and he is crowding sourcing it. What, Day9 is being critical of the game? Well at least that's one of the harbingers of the apocalypse down, going to start really shitting myself if a foreigner wins a major tournament anytime soon. Actually to be fair, he's really just canvassing opinion from others, possibly to reflect a deep unease in his psyche at having witnessed one too many Shost games. I've always felt Day hasn't really used his position of potential influence as much as he could have possibly. It's hard to know what his real opinions are on the game/balance, but he's surely had more private qualms with aspects of the game in the previous 3 years than he's ever expressed, at least publicly. He is of the philosophy that complaining rarely if ever accomplishes anything, and will focus pretty much exclusively on what you can do with what happens to be available. It's an attitude I can certainly respect and commend, but I feel like he's taken it to an extreme, where he refuses to acknowledge imbalance or design issues even as possibilities. Perhaps it's to maintain an image, perhaps he sees himself as a counterbalance to the sometimes rather gloom and doom laden community, perhaps he truly thinks the game is that awesome, though I sincerely doubt that. One thing he is not though, and that's stupid. The writing is on the wall, any idiot can see what will happen in the long run if SH turtle becomes standard meta. If he and people like TB(who has been outspoken about this, to his credit) and other influential people in the scene would be more vocal about stuff like this, it might help. Probably not, but we're kind of grasping for straws at this point. Noone's grasping for straws. The game is pretty amazing overall. TvP balance is a balance problem, ZvP and TvZ having a little too many stalemate or near stalemate situations has to be watched and should be adressed if it continues. None of those is a major concern. Absolutely agree. It is also quite amazing how the viewernumbers grow while this epic turtle games are going on. While SK v Reality was going on the number reached 28000 and while stephano was playing firecake for 2:40 h with nearly pure SH vs SH to number also grew steadily. These long SH games also do not look that boring from the players perspective. If you watch Stephano play you really see that he is doing a lot at several different places. A lot of the frustration also has to do with the fact that neither a lot of pro players nor the casters have a real clue what to do and what is going on in the later stages of these games. Well the good thing is you probably won't see SH turtle in ZvZ.
Maybe you should tune in to Stephano's stream some time...
On February 12 2014 07:29 LingBlingBling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 07:21 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 12 2014 06:55 submarine wrote:On February 12 2014 06:41 Big J wrote:On February 12 2014 06:17 Squat wrote:On February 12 2014 05:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2014 04:35 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2014 04:27 Faust852 wrote:
I would prefer some nerf in the SH tho. Day 9 seems to be asking a lot of questions about how to fix the swarm host on twitter and on his stream. I wouldn't be shocked if Blizzard asked him for some ideas and he is crowding sourcing it. What, Day9 is being critical of the game? Well at least that's one of the harbingers of the apocalypse down, going to start really shitting myself if a foreigner wins a major tournament anytime soon. Actually to be fair, he's really just canvassing opinion from others, possibly to reflect a deep unease in his psyche at having witnessed one too many Shost games. I've always felt Day hasn't really used his position of potential influence as much as he could have possibly. It's hard to know what his real opinions are on the game/balance, but he's surely had more private qualms with aspects of the game in the previous 3 years than he's ever expressed, at least publicly. He is of the philosophy that complaining rarely if ever accomplishes anything, and will focus pretty much exclusively on what you can do with what happens to be available. It's an attitude I can certainly respect and commend, but I feel like he's taken it to an extreme, where he refuses to acknowledge imbalance or design issues even as possibilities. Perhaps it's to maintain an image, perhaps he sees himself as a counterbalance to the sometimes rather gloom and doom laden community, perhaps he truly thinks the game is that awesome, though I sincerely doubt that. One thing he is not though, and that's stupid. The writing is on the wall, any idiot can see what will happen in the long run if SH turtle becomes standard meta. If he and people like TB(who has been outspoken about this, to his credit) and other influential people in the scene would be more vocal about stuff like this, it might help. Probably not, but we're kind of grasping for straws at this point. Noone's grasping for straws. The game is pretty amazing overall. TvP balance is a balance problem, ZvP and TvZ having a little too many stalemate or near stalemate situations has to be watched and should be adressed if it continues. None of those is a major concern. Absolutely agree. It is also quite amazing how the viewernumbers grow while this epic turtle games are going on. While SK v Reality was going on the number reached 28000 and while stephano was playing firecake for 2:40 h with nearly pure SH vs SH to number also grew steadily. These long SH games also do not look that boring from the players perspective. If you watch Stephano play you really see that he is doing a lot at several different places. A lot of the frustration also has to do with the fact that neither a lot of pro players nor the casters have a real clue what to do and what is going on in the later stages of these games. Once the novelty wears off and people realize that it's (maybe) worse than BL/Infestor viewer numbers will plummet again lol. However, I also agree that overall the game is in a pretty good place, and the changes proposed here could spice things up even more. SH is not even close to being BL/infestor at all..... fungle and upgraded infested marines were the issue that made the combo op. SH turtle is really the only thing zerg has against the ultimate late game sky toss/temp/colossi army.
That's why I said (maybe). But, when you're regularly getting 1.5 hour long games with Swarm Host turtle...it's approaching the same point as BL/Infestor in terms of "I cannot be fucked to watch this snoozefest"
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ffs, accidental double post
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I definitely agree with Protoss being the strongest race right now. I agree that winrates aren't such a reliable source of intel given various parameters like (Korean v Non-Korean, the fact that we're held to 50% wr, and the fact that there's no way to quantify micro even though, for Terran, it is indispensable and for P and Z it's just desired, advantageous, or helpful). There's no way to have different races and have a perfectly balanced game. Meanwhile, "The game is really balanced"-Blizzard. I feel like DK and the gang need to hit step one of a 12step program "Admitting you have a problem".
I believe you have to balance the game from the top(pro) down AND from the bottom(bronze) up. Right, now Terran is balanced from the top(pro) down. This means you're taking correct and constant terran micro as a given. From Plat down, It is very much not a given.
For example: all armies in the game clump up after they are moved. But Zerg armies work great clumped up because they are so fast and/or powerful that it rolls anything in it's way. You just don't have to split Swarmhosts, Ultras, broodlords, zerg/banes (to the same degree as marines), etc. And, the protoss ball works best clumped up. But, as a terran player, you have to constantly split up your army or that one fungal/colossus swipe/storm/baneling a-move/ling surround/forcefield will erase your army in seconds. Meanwhile protoss' are storming and time-warping their own units over and over again with no consequences and zergs just mass what ever unit they want and send it across the map... This means that the game is balanced with correct terran splitting and kiting constantly as a given while Z and P remain cost-efficient given a minimum of the micromanaging of units.
It feels like Terran players are playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers... and winning.
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EPT
