On February 13 2014 06:48 Squat wrote: I'd be interested to hear any theories as to quite why snipe was nerfed so relatively quickly, likewise with things like Thors.
There was a famous Blizzcon finals, I think it was 2012 where Nestea's broodlord army got owned by an army of MVP Ghosts. MVP used a little mech, but mostly ghosts and sniped everything Nestea had.
This strategy had been gaining in popularity up until that point and I think that game was the straw that broke the camel's back. Ghost snipe was nerfed shortly thereafter.
Oh that is well known, but I mean you had BL/Infestor for what 6+ months of the game?
The difference in time it took to address both was absolutely insane
On February 13 2014 06:48 Squat wrote: I'd be interested to hear any theories as to quite why snipe was nerfed so relatively quickly, likewise with things like Thors.
There was a famous Blizzcon finals, I think it was 2012 where Nestea's broodlord army got owned by an army of MVP Ghosts. MVP used a little mech, but mostly ghosts and sniped everything Nestea had.
This strategy had been gaining in popularity up until that point and I think that game was the straw that broke the camel's back. Ghost snipe was nerfed shortly thereafter.
Ghost snipe was bad for the same reason that infested terran spam was bad: trading energy for resources, while still being able to save your spellcasters and retreat to a defensive position. It's also the same reason that swarm hosts can be quite annoying.
On February 13 2014 06:48 Squat wrote: I'd be interested to hear any theories as to quite why snipe was nerfed so relatively quickly, likewise with things like Thors.
There was a famous Blizzcon finals, I think it was 2012 where Nestea's broodlord army got owned by an army of MVP Ghosts. MVP used a little mech, but mostly ghosts and sniped everything Nestea had.
This strategy had been gaining in popularity up until that point and I think that game was the straw that broke the camel's back. Ghost snipe was nerfed shortly thereafter.
That is not true.
MVP Revolutionarised TvZ by suddenly giving Terran an incredible lategame option to combat Zerg T3. The nerf came in almost instantly after this game, I think it was given 2 weeks?
It was a huge kneejerk reaction; because of the game. Shakuras was the most Terran favored map in the pool, very easy to split, Nestea didn't control his army well, it was a strategy that was never seen before. Meanwhile Snipe was nerfed from 45 damage to 25 damage - becoming effectively useless because regular Ghost DPS was higher. Loads of people including me vouched for something like 30 v Massive, 45 flat, 50 v Psionic. Ghost at the time started using Snipe vs Zealots and we also saw Snipe used vs Banelings every now and then.
In the end, Blizzard nerfed a cool ability through the ground while there was almost no data backing it up - and never even considered reverting said nerf. Currently, Snipe is only used against High Templar: Ghost are such a niche unit they actually have only one reason to be in the game; Checking High Templar.
On February 13 2014 06:48 Squat wrote: I'd be interested to hear any theories as to quite why snipe was nerfed so relatively quickly, likewise with things like Thors.
There was a famous Blizzcon finals, I think it was 2012 where Nestea's broodlord army got owned by an army of MVP Ghosts. MVP used a little mech, but mostly ghosts and sniped everything Nestea had.
This strategy had been gaining in popularity up until that point and I think that game was the straw that broke the camel's back. Ghost snipe was nerfed shortly thereafter.
Oh that is well known, but I mean you had BL/Infestor for what 6+ months of the game?
The difference in time it took to address both was absolutely insane
BL Infestor was never adressed.
Blizzard has a history of instantly nerfing Terran and waiting months with the other races... (see now, Protoss has been dominating for 2 months xD)
Here is the game. You can see Nestea MASSIVELY fucking up. No Overseers, using Infested Terrans instead of fungal, Those broodlords would probably have died even without Snipe.
On February 13 2014 06:48 Squat wrote: I'd be interested to hear any theories as to quite why snipe was nerfed so relatively quickly, likewise with things like Thors.
There was a famous Blizzcon finals, I think it was 2012 where Nestea's broodlord army got owned by an army of MVP Ghosts. MVP used a little mech, but mostly ghosts and sniped everything Nestea had.
This strategy had been gaining in popularity up until that point and I think that game was the straw that broke the camel's back. Ghost snipe was nerfed shortly thereafter.
Oh that is well known, but I mean you had BL/Infestor for what 6+ months of the game?
The difference in time it took to address both was absolutely insane
BL Infestor was never adressed.
Blizzard has a history of instantly nerfing Terran and waiting months with the other races... (see now, Protoss has been dominating for 2 months xD)
To be fair they did wait several months until they started to apply the first terran nerfs in HoTS.
On February 13 2014 06:48 Squat wrote: I'd be interested to hear any theories as to quite why snipe was nerfed so relatively quickly, likewise with things like Thors.
There was a famous Blizzcon finals, I think it was 2012 where Nestea's broodlord army got owned by an army of MVP Ghosts. MVP used a little mech, but mostly ghosts and sniped everything Nestea had.
This strategy had been gaining in popularity up until that point and I think that game was the straw that broke the camel's back. Ghost snipe was nerfed shortly thereafter.
Oh that is well known, but I mean you had BL/Infestor for what 6+ months of the game?
The difference in time it took to address both was absolutely insane
BL Infestor was never adressed.
Blizzard has a history of instantly nerfing Terran and waiting months with the other races... (see now, Protoss has been dominating for 2 months xD)
To be fair they did wait several months until they started to apply the first terran nerfs in HoTS.
Which nerfs? Hellbats got nerfed for TvT and Mines because ZvT was getting stale (swarmhost v mech is way more fun!)? Or am I missing one?
Balance early HotS wasn't that bad and the metagame was still a mess at the time.
They should create benefits of not turning all your gates into warpgates.
Let`s say with gateways units would be a little faster to built but you can`t warp-in. You build like a terran. With warpgates you would have the warp-in but the build time is a little bit slower.
That would make interesting choices for the Protoss to make.
I think this could be cool as in a Race feature and could definitely be used for the campaign for LotV, but from a pure multiplayer standpoint, Warp Gate tech is one of the mechanics that really differentiate the Protoss race from the rest, which is even more important.
Sure it differentiates them, but is it in a positive way? And Protoss had a "queuing production" too in SC1, and it did not make them similar to Terran for all that.
It did not make them a better race than SC2 Protoss either.
Unsure where you want to go with that sentence?
That I actually think that warpgate production makes them a little more different from Terran, while I don't think the main reason why Protoss balls up or allins stems from something like warpgate, but rather from "untradeable" expensive, lots of survival, little damage output units like the stalker, the dragoon, the immortal, the scout, the Archon...
The immortal? Holy shit.
You mean the unit that owns 5 siege tanks single-handedly and survives with only shield damage?
Low damage output indeed.
And I'm not even gonna get started about the Archon.
Immortal: 14-35dps for 250/100/4
2*Marauder: 20-40dps for 200/50/4 4*Marine: 42dps for 200/0/4 2*Zealot: 27dps for 200/0/4 8*zergling: 57.6dps for 200/0/4
The Immortal is a bad damage dealer for its price, it's barely over average against armored. Point is that it has 200life + 100hardened shields.
Now - mobility issues aside which is the next problem a lot of Protoss problems have and why you don't go over the map with them - what would you rather use against something that doesn't shoot back like workers: - Immortals - who gain nothing from their high HP in that situation, since the opponent isn't fighting back and when he is you have to run anyways - something cheaper with higher dps
You know, the game is made in a way that you can have marines or banelings dropped into your mineral line and you can react to their damage output. Guess which units won't be worth dropping. The ones with lower damage output which do even less if your opponent is on top of his defense. That's one of the main problems with Protoss harassment play. You can give dragoons all the blink in the world, they will still only kill very few SCVs before they have to retreat if you harass with them. Meanwhile zerg suicides 15zerglings without doing anything 2-3times, but when they hit the opponent, oh man does he bleed.
That is a ridiculous way to look at it. Especially when I specifically mentioned its unmatched ability to survive vs tanks. A key thing about most protoss units is that they have high survivability, not high dps. This is TL.net in a nutshell - only argue against one part of someones argument and leave out the other parts which were needed to make a point in the first place.
And what about the archon? You conveniently forgot to comment on that. Why don't you show me some calculations about the poor damage output of the archon while ignoring the fact that it does splash damage and has 350hp.
Oh, I like how you changed his name to "Big N00B" in the quote just because you disagree with him.
He said that Immortals have low damage output for their cost, you attacked him and stated how 1 Immortal kills 5 Siege Tanks which doesn't have anything to do with Immortals "godly" dps, but with the fact that it is actually "immortal" against Siege Tanks. On the other hand, Immortals are quite bad against Zerglings, Zealots, Marines etc. so I don't see your point where you pick Immortal and say how it amazingly handles units that it is supposed to counter.
Then you are saying how "this is a ridiculous way to look at it" and how "this is TL.net in a nutshell" which sounds quite quite ironic from your previous post, I must say.
I didn't do that because I just disagree with him. I did it because he was outright wrong, and so are you.
The original statement that caught my attention was: "The Immortal is a bad damage dealer for its price, it's barely over average against armored." This is an outright incorrect statement. In fact, it is a quite empty statement. It doesn't say anything.
Even if you follow it up with the sentence: "Point is that it has 200life + 100hardened shields." It still doesn't make things better.
In reality both things can be true. If microed correctly it can fuck up a lot of armored units. Disregard "dps" health and other unimportant things. If used correctly vs terran it can in some situations kill a lot of mech. In some other situations it can be EMP'd, focus fired by marines, surrouned by lings or hit by a widow mine only to be shelled to death by 10 tanks. It is not as simple as a situation where you input resources and get "dps" or "cost effectiveness" as output. It takes skill to use, it has to fit into your strategy and tactics and there are a ton of opportunities to be creative with it by using warp prisms. It is a unit in a real time strategy game.
On February 13 2014 06:48 Squat wrote: I'd be interested to hear any theories as to quite why snipe was nerfed so relatively quickly, likewise with things like Thors.
There was a famous Blizzcon finals, I think it was 2012 where Nestea's broodlord army got owned by an army of MVP Ghosts. MVP used a little mech, but mostly ghosts and sniped everything Nestea had.
This strategy had been gaining in popularity up until that point and I think that game was the straw that broke the camel's back. Ghost snipe was nerfed shortly thereafter.
Oh that is well known, but I mean you had BL/Infestor for what 6+ months of the game?
The difference in time it took to address both was absolutely insane
BL Infestor was never adressed.
Blizzard has a history of instantly nerfing Terran and waiting months with the other races... (see now, Protoss has been dominating for 2 months xD)
Yes but I'm asking WHY people think this might be the case. Is it because Terran isn't really 'meant' in Blizzard's eyes to have a kind of deadly Tier 3 composition of that potency without hardcore turtling into Sky Terran?
We hear quite a lot that they like asymmetric design, so is it that they want to force Terrans to fit into their conception of what their race 'should' be doing or what?
I've always find it maddening, sometimes Terran have things and timings that were legitimately close to broken, other times they figure something out and it's nearly instantly nerfed, not even giving the other races a chance to work out solutions to it.
On February 13 2014 06:48 Squat wrote: I'd be interested to hear any theories as to quite why snipe was nerfed so relatively quickly, likewise with things like Thors.
There was a famous Blizzcon finals, I think it was 2012 where Nestea's broodlord army got owned by an army of MVP Ghosts. MVP used a little mech, but mostly ghosts and sniped everything Nestea had.
This strategy had been gaining in popularity up until that point and I think that game was the straw that broke the camel's back. Ghost snipe was nerfed shortly thereafter.
Oh that is well known, but I mean you had BL/Infestor for what 6+ months of the game?
The difference in time it took to address both was absolutely insane
BL Infestor was never adressed.
Blizzard has a history of instantly nerfing Terran and waiting months with the other races... (see now, Protoss has been dominating for 2 months xD)
Yes but I'm asking WHY people think this might be the case. Is it because Terran isn't really 'meant' in Blizzard's eyes to have a kind of deadly Tier 3 composition of that potency without hardcore turtling into Sky Terran?
We hear quite a lot that they like asymmetric design, so is it that they want to force Terrans to fit into their conception of what their race 'should' be doing or what?
I've always find it maddening, sometimes Terran have things and timings that were legitimately close to broken, other times they figure something out and it's nearly instantly nerfed, not even giving the other races a chance to work out solutions to it.
That's what I dislike. We've seen lots of things Terran nerfed to shreds way too early, or if they were, in different circumstances. Siege Tanks were balanced on Steppes of War for christs sake.
We also have to keep in mind defending against a certain attack is always learned after said attack has been exploited for some time. There's always a small time in which the other races need to learn how to hold of a new Timing. We can see it with pre-queen buff hellions, Zerg before the recent mine nerf, that Ghost patch, blueflame, etcetera. Blizzard has historically been too fast with adjusting stats to 'fix' said offensive manouvers leaving Terran in an awkward spot:
After 4 years of SC2, Terran has never had an effective lategame composition that did not require mass turtling and the opponent messing up. Terran has always been put on a timer because the T3 tech was way too weak. IMO, that is one of the reasons Terran is so weak now. While early game gets shorter and less exploitable by bigger maps, adapting opponents and defensive units, Terran hasn't had that buff to Lategame to make up for it, leaving Terran in a very awkward spot of having to go almost all in at midgame to stand a chance. Every Terran build relies on shutting the game down on 3 bases, on more, you usually are reasonably behind.
On February 13 2014 06:48 Squat wrote: I'd be interested to hear any theories as to quite why snipe was nerfed so relatively quickly, likewise with things like Thors.
There was a famous Blizzcon finals, I think it was 2012 where Nestea's broodlord army got owned by an army of MVP Ghosts. MVP used a little mech, but mostly ghosts and sniped everything Nestea had.
This strategy had been gaining in popularity up until that point and I think that game was the straw that broke the camel's back. Ghost snipe was nerfed shortly thereafter.
Oh that is well known, but I mean you had BL/Infestor for what 6+ months of the game?
The difference in time it took to address both was absolutely insane
BL Infestor was never adressed.
Blizzard has a history of instantly nerfing Terran and waiting months with the other races... (see now, Protoss has been dominating for 2 months xD)
To be fair they did wait several months until they started to apply the first terran nerfs in HoTS.
Which nerfs? Hellbats got nerfed for TvT and Mines because ZvT was getting stale (swarmhost v mech is way more fun!)? Or am I missing one?
Balance early HotS wasn't that bad and the metagame was still a mess at the time.
HoTS was released on the 12th of March, Hellbat patch hits on July 11th, 4 months after release and WM nerf in November the 11th, 4 more months later. That's a far cry from instantly nerfing terran, like you said. I didn't comment on weather they where justified or not, just that Blizzard did wait a while.
Of course the did massively fuck up with the WM nerf patch, the same patch that also buffed oracles, no one in his right mind can deny this.
On February 13 2014 08:11 SC2Toastie wrote: Wow you are aggressive 0.0
Immortal DPS is average for it's cost, whatever way you turn it. You pay for Anti-Armored and for high survivability vs high damage low speed attacks.
Did you know Broodlords own Tanks too? And Banshees, and Void Rays? Every unit can "fuck up" another unit it hardly takes damage from?!
Aggressive?
I don't think you understood my post completely. Read it again and explain to me how DPS is a good way to compare units.
DPS doesn't matter when 1 immortal can kill 5 tanks and then regenerate its shields and come out unharmed or when surrounded by lings and killed in 2 seconds taking 2 lings with it to death.
To say that the immortal has "barely above average dps vs armored" is misleading unless you just compare raw unit stats.
Yeah I kind of agree it's like Blizzard think that Terran's microability and movability and general mechanical scaling cannot be allied to the kind of lategame, easy-to-use comps that the other races can obtain relatively easily, and if they see any chance of that happening they snuff it out ahead of time.
On February 13 2014 06:48 Squat wrote: I'd be interested to hear any theories as to quite why snipe was nerfed so relatively quickly, likewise with things like Thors.
There was a famous Blizzcon finals, I think it was 2012 where Nestea's broodlord army got owned by an army of MVP Ghosts. MVP used a little mech, but mostly ghosts and sniped everything Nestea had.
This strategy had been gaining in popularity up until that point and I think that game was the straw that broke the camel's back. Ghost snipe was nerfed shortly thereafter.
Oh that is well known, but I mean you had BL/Infestor for what 6+ months of the game?
The difference in time it took to address both was absolutely insane
BL Infestor was never adressed.
Blizzard has a history of instantly nerfing Terran and waiting months with the other races... (see now, Protoss has been dominating for 2 months xD)
To be fair they did wait several months until they started to apply the first terran nerfs in HoTS.
Which nerfs? Hellbats got nerfed for TvT and Mines because ZvT was getting stale (swarmhost v mech is way more fun!)? Or am I missing one?
Balance early HotS wasn't that bad and the metagame was still a mess at the time.
HoTS was released on the 12th of March, Hellbat patch hits on July 11th, 4 months after release and WM nerf in November the 11th, 4 more months later. That's a far cry from instantly nerfing terran, like you said. I didn't comment on weather they where justified or not, just that Blizzard did wait a while.
Of course the did massively fuck up with the WM nerf patch, the same patch that also buffed oracles, no one in his right mind can deny this.
The reason of said patch is important in determining whether it was 'late' or not. As neither patch was aimed to fix an imbalance, these are not the right examples.
I was talking more about WOL tho, with constant Terran nerfs that followed really fast... A lot of those nerfs could probably be reverted without problems nowaday
On February 13 2014 08:11 SC2Toastie wrote: Wow you are aggressive 0.0
Immortal DPS is average for it's cost, whatever way you turn it. You pay for Anti-Armored and for high survivability vs high damage low speed attacks.
Did you know Broodlords own Tanks too? And Banshees, and Void Rays? Every unit can "fuck up" another unit it hardly takes damage from?!
Aggressive?
I don't think you understood my post completely. Read it again and explain to me how DPS is a good way to compare units.
DPS doesn't matter when 1 immortal can kill 5 tanks and then regenerate its shields and come out unharmed or when surrounded by lings and killed in 2 seconds taking 2 lings with it to death.
To say that the immortal has "barely above average dps vs armored" is misleading unless you just compare raw unit stats.
On February 14 2014 xx:xx one-one-one wrote: I didn't do that because I just disagree with him. I did it because he was outright wrong, and so are you. This is what makes his analysis too simplistic.
That is.
And his statement is right. It doesn't talk about all situations, but it is right.
On February 13 2014 08:11 SC2Toastie wrote: Wow you are aggressive 0.0
Immortal DPS is average for it's cost, whatever way you turn it. You pay for Anti-Armored and for high survivability vs high damage low speed attacks.
Did you know Broodlords own Tanks too? And Banshees, and Void Rays? Every unit can "fuck up" another unit it hardly takes damage from?!
Aggressive?
I don't think you understood my post completely. Read it again and explain to me how DPS is a good way to compare units.
DPS doesn't matter when 1 immortal can kill 5 tanks and then regenerate its shields and come out unharmed or when surrounded by lings and killed in 2 seconds taking 2 lings with it to death.
To say that the immortal has "barely above average dps vs armored" is misleading unless you just compare raw unit stats.
On February 14 2014 xx:xx one-one-one wrote: I didn't do that because I just disagree with him. I did it because he was outright wrong, and so are you. This is what makes his analysis too simplistic.
That is.
And his statement is right. It doesn't talk about all situations, but it is right.
It is wrong.
But it is nice that you seem to agree. Then you can be friends. It is nice to have friends.
On February 13 2014 06:48 Squat wrote: I'd be interested to hear any theories as to quite why snipe was nerfed so relatively quickly, likewise with things like Thors.
There was a famous Blizzcon finals, I think it was 2012 where Nestea's broodlord army got owned by an army of MVP Ghosts. MVP used a little mech, but mostly ghosts and sniped everything Nestea had.
This strategy had been gaining in popularity up until that point and I think that game was the straw that broke the camel's back. Ghost snipe was nerfed shortly thereafter.
Oh that is well known, but I mean you had BL/Infestor for what 6+ months of the game?
The difference in time it took to address both was absolutely insane
BL Infestor was never adressed.
Blizzard has a history of instantly nerfing Terran and waiting months with the other races... (see now, Protoss has been dominating for 2 months xD)
To be fair they did wait several months until they started to apply the first terran nerfs in HoTS.
Which nerfs? Hellbats got nerfed for TvT and Mines because ZvT was getting stale (swarmhost v mech is way more fun!)? Or am I missing one?
Balance early HotS wasn't that bad and the metagame was still a mess at the time.
HoTS was released on the 12th of March, Hellbat patch hits on July 11th, 4 months after release and WM nerf in November the 11th, 4 more months later. That's a far cry from instantly nerfing terran, like you said. I didn't comment on weather they where justified or not, just that Blizzard did wait a while.
Of course the did massively fuck up with the WM nerf patch, the same patch that also buffed oracles, no one in his right mind can deny this.
The reason of said patch is important in determining whether it was 'late' or not. As neither patch was aimed to fix an imbalance, these are not the right examples.
I was talking more about WOL tho, with constant Terran nerfs that followed really fast... A lot of those nerfs could probably be reverted without problems nowaday
Nerfs that I believe could potentially be reverted given the current state of the game and map design.
1. Stim research time. Gives Terran extra chance of holding the Blink allins especially, shouldn't be too broken given the travel distance increases in average, plus the new tools that other races have to play with nowadays. 2. Snipe. For no reason other than it was fucking cool. 3. EMP Radius - I'm definitely wavering on this one, it COULD be over-the-top but it was a nerf for a different era. It's actually the radius being its current size that IMO still means Mech with a sprinkling of Ghosts isn't potent due to the sheer size of Archons and Immortals.
Probably others. I'm all for changing the game and patching, I just don't get why to my knowledge no patch ever actually looks at removing the actions of previous ones.
Actually NO - took forever for Blizz to nerf Terran in WoL
Please don't do that.. If it's something that wasn't right and not true is that - that Terran was nerfed instantly.. Took forever and there were tons of games for each nerf of Terran to finally come out.. That MVP vs Nestea mass Ghost was like at least 3 months after the first game when Terrans started to use mass Ghosts - and not just in TvZ (vs everything Zerg can have), but cause of IMBA EMP in TvP as well.. With Thorzain starting first that trend I think
IT IS TRUE that Terran is in a bad shape now in HotS, but please don't bash Zerg cause 90% of Terran's problems both in WoL, as well as now in HotS are mainly addressed to vs P
BUT - it's so painful to hear butthurt Terrans feeling bad cause of Zerg, cause let's be honest - that's so BM and so unfair at least.. Almost too egoistic.. As for the Snipe nerf itself - no Zerg wanted to nerf the ability to oblivion, all they were saying is that at least snipe shouldn't be used vs both - BLs and Ultralisks, and it should do less damage vs at least one of them.. It wasn't Zerg's "asking" fault that Blizzard did an overnerf
AND - the infamous BL/Infestor was rarely a TvZ's problem, or if it was - it was only cause of fungal, not cause of ITs, not cause of BLs.. It was mainly a problem of PvZ.. I can understand Protoss players doing the "took forever to nerf Zerg in WoL" statements, but that's so egoistic and so unfair to be done by Terrans
On February 13 2014 09:24 VArsovskiSC wrote: Actually NO - took forever for Blizz to nerf Terran in WoL
Please don't do that.. If it's something that wasn't right and not true is that - that Terran was nerfed instantly.. Took forever and there were tons of games for each nerf of Terran to finally come out.. That MVP vs Nestea mass Ghost was like at least 3 months after the first game when Terrans started to use mass Ghosts - and not just in TvZ (vs everything Zerg can have), but cause of IMBA EMP in TvP as well.. With Thorzain starting first that trend I think
IT IS TRUE that Terran is in a bad shape now in HotS, but please don't bash Zerg cause 90% of Terran's problems both in WoL, as well as now in HotS are mainly addressed to vs P
BUT - it's so painful to hear butthurt Terrans feeling bad cause of Zerg, cause let's be honest - that's so BM and so unfair at least.. Almost too egoistic.. As for the Snipe nerf itself - no Zerg wanted to nerf the ability to oblivion, all they were saying is that at least snipe shouldn't be used vs both - BLs and Ultralisks, and it should do less damage vs at least one of them.. It wasn't Zerg's "asking" fault that Blizzard did an overnerf
AND - the infamous BL/Infestor was rarely a TvZ's problem, or if it was - it was only cause of fungal, not cause of ITs, not cause of BLs.. It was mainly a problem of PvZ.. I can understand Protoss players doing the "took forever to nerf Zerg in WoL" statements, but that's so egoistic and so unfair to be done by Terrans
That's some fascinating revisionism you've managed.
EPT
