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Ya I'll admit when they said they were trading the hellbat nerf for the banshee nerf I thought they were just trying to appease people that might have gotten angry. I really hope they were not so clueless as to believe that it would be even remotely an even trade.
Also I feel like it was mostly Zerg and Protoss players complaining about "watching TvT" for the sake of them not having to deal with hellbats - they got their wish I guess. I never thought hellbat drops were that bad in TvT since it was just harass into macro it rarely ever ended the game and banshee opener more or less countered it even without the cloak decrease.
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On February 08 2014 07:39 JIJI_ wrote:
Ya I'll admit when they said they were trading the hellbat nerf for the banshee nerf I thought they were just trying to appease people that might have gotten angry. I really hope they were not so clueless as to believe that it would be even remotely an even trade.
Also I feel like it was mostly Zerg and Protoss players complaining about "watching TvT" for the sake of them not having to deal with hellbats - they got their wish I guess. I never thought hellbat drops were that bad in TvT since it was just harass into macro it rarely ever ended the game and banshee opener more or less countered it even without the cloak decrease.
The game nearly ALWAYS ended with hellbat drops - seeing games where both Players lost over 100 SCVs and got below the 20s at 10 minutes into the game was not a rare occurence. Hellbats needed fixing in TvT.
HELL - We got as far as people opening with a turret AND a bunker in the mineral line and still losing vs hellbat drops.
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Northern Ireland25995 Posts
WM nerf was premature IMO, just like the Queen patch in that it really did look that top Zergs were really figuring out ways to engage optimally anyway.
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On February 08 2014 07:39 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:36 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? From what I remember, it was because TvT had become a Hellbat fest. I was in two minds about that patch (as you may or may not know, I generally dislike most, if not all, patches) but it seemed the right way to go as a once cool match-up (TvT) had become just silly. If they want to return the Hellbat to 2 cargo space, rather than 4 that would be fine with me. Note also, that I was against the WM nerf. But that was because of all the ZvT complaining. A stronger WM and 4 HB per Medivac seems OK to me. Heck, I'd even be on board with looking at stim timings again (as that is one powerful upgrade). But, you would have to consider the effect of all of this on TvZ too (I am not sure if a big stim buff would not be too much). Unfortunately, generally speaking Blizzard have been very unwilling to roll back any patch. Realistically speaking I doubt any of these will happen. But, if nerfs to Protoss are to happen. Then, I'd like them to be good and intelligent tweaks rather than massive swings of the nerf hammer. This way Protoss get to still enjoy some of their new found HOTS flexibility while giving some back to Terran too. That way, hopefully, both races are better off in aggregate and Starcraft itself better off as a result. Nobody has disagreed with the hellbat nerfs - but the amount they nerfed them. It was not a TvT nerf despite whatever they tell you: it was an accross the board nerf to Terran openings. WM nerf was 'because TvZ is getting stale', another pretty terrible reason. Balance in TvZ was looking really good with the better player usually winning (Unlike now - see any LR threat). The problem was that the same game over and over and over and over got boring so Mines got nerfed.
The weakest justification was the WM nerfs, blizzard wanted more tank play instead of 4M. Then why didn't they nerf mutas so we get more muta ling baneling hydra play?
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On February 08 2014 07:39 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:36 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? From what I remember, it was because TvT had become a Hellbat fest. I was in two minds about that patch (as you may or may not know, I generally dislike most, if not all, patches) but it seemed the right way to go as a once cool match-up (TvT) had become just silly. If they want to return the Hellbat to 2 cargo space, rather than 4 that would be fine with me. Note also, that I was against the WM nerf. But that was because of all the ZvT complaining. A stronger WM and 4 HB per Medivac seems OK to me. Heck, I'd even be on board with looking at stim timings again (as that is one powerful upgrade). But, you would have to consider the effect of all of this on TvZ too (I am not sure if a big stim buff would not be too much). Unfortunately, generally speaking Blizzard have been very unwilling to roll back any patch. Realistically speaking I doubt any of these will happen. But, if nerfs to Protoss are to happen. Then, I'd like them to be good and intelligent tweaks rather than massive swings of the nerf hammer. This way Protoss get to still enjoy some of their new found HOTS flexibility while giving some back to Terran too. That way, hopefully, both races are better off in aggregate and Starcraft itself better off as a result. Nobody has disagreed with the hellbat nerfs - but the amount they nerfed them. It was not a TvT nerf despite whatever they tell you: it was an accross the board nerf to Terran openings. WM nerf was 'because TvZ is getting stale', another pretty terrible reason. Balance in TvZ was looking really good with the better player usually winning (Unlike now - see any LR threat). The problem was that the same game over and over and over and over got boring so Mines got nerfed.
I don't agree with that. That patch came after a whole bunch of rather silly TvT games. The unit itself was OK in TvZ and TvP from what I remember. I see no reason why Blizzard would lie. The nerf may have been over-heavy (I can't say for sure). But this is why, along with the WM nerf, I am generally against patching. Patches tend to cause more trouble than they are worth.
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I paid 100$ to get early sc2 beta without regrets but i have not bothered buying hots and have completly abandoned sc2 for dota.
Sc2 isnt bad in general but it will never be anything like scbw,and thats coming from someone who only started scbw 1 year before sc2 realease to get ready for sc2. Well the epic TSL helped too to get me hyped for scbw itself ^^.
Not ranting or whining, because the internet has too much of it already,but i think people who still hope that sc2 will become like scbw with patches or another expansion should stop hoping.
The hots expansion was nothing like the broodwar expansion.
I only reached c+ in scbw, but i sure as hell am proud of it. =)
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On February 08 2014 07:41 Wombat_NI wrote:
WM nerf was premature IMO, just like the Queen patch in that it really did look that top Zergs were really figuring out ways to engage optimally anyway.
Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10038734466#1
Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1
We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone.
We know how this ended up. The mines were nerfed in exchange for a negligable Tank buff (Heey, Hellbat <-> Banshee exchange 0.0!?!?) and ended up just being a nerf. Reason: so bio play becomes more interesting.
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On February 08 2014 07:44 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:39 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:36 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? From what I remember, it was because TvT had become a Hellbat fest. I was in two minds about that patch (as you may or may not know, I generally dislike most, if not all, patches) but it seemed the right way to go as a once cool match-up (TvT) had become just silly. If they want to return the Hellbat to 2 cargo space, rather than 4 that would be fine with me. Note also, that I was against the WM nerf. But that was because of all the ZvT complaining. A stronger WM and 4 HB per Medivac seems OK to me. Heck, I'd even be on board with looking at stim timings again (as that is one powerful upgrade). But, you would have to consider the effect of all of this on TvZ too (I am not sure if a big stim buff would not be too much). Unfortunately, generally speaking Blizzard have been very unwilling to roll back any patch. Realistically speaking I doubt any of these will happen. But, if nerfs to Protoss are to happen. Then, I'd like them to be good and intelligent tweaks rather than massive swings of the nerf hammer. This way Protoss get to still enjoy some of their new found HOTS flexibility while giving some back to Terran too. That way, hopefully, both races are better off in aggregate and Starcraft itself better off as a result. Nobody has disagreed with the hellbat nerfs - but the amount they nerfed them. It was not a TvT nerf despite whatever they tell you: it was an accross the board nerf to Terran openings. WM nerf was 'because TvZ is getting stale', another pretty terrible reason. Balance in TvZ was looking really good with the better player usually winning (Unlike now - see any LR threat). The problem was that the same game over and over and over and over got boring so Mines got nerfed. I don't agree with that. That patch came after a whole bunch of rather silly TvT games. The unit itself was OK in TvZ and TvP from what I remember. I see no reason why Blizzard would lie. The nerf may have been over-heavy (I can't say for sure). But this is why, along with the WM nerf, I am generally against over patching. They tend to cause more trouble than they are worth.
I don't understand what you are getting at with the first part of your post - isn't that what I wrote?
They either lied and wanted to change TvZ/TvP but didn't want to say so, or they are really stupid...
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Northern Ireland25995 Posts
I wish other races got nerfs solely to make them more interesting.
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On February 08 2014 07:46 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:44 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 07:39 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:36 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? From what I remember, it was because TvT had become a Hellbat fest. I was in two minds about that patch (as you may or may not know, I generally dislike most, if not all, patches) but it seemed the right way to go as a once cool match-up (TvT) had become just silly. If they want to return the Hellbat to 2 cargo space, rather than 4 that would be fine with me. Note also, that I was against the WM nerf. But that was because of all the ZvT complaining. A stronger WM and 4 HB per Medivac seems OK to me. Heck, I'd even be on board with looking at stim timings again (as that is one powerful upgrade). But, you would have to consider the effect of all of this on TvZ too (I am not sure if a big stim buff would not be too much). Unfortunately, generally speaking Blizzard have been very unwilling to roll back any patch. Realistically speaking I doubt any of these will happen. But, if nerfs to Protoss are to happen. Then, I'd like them to be good and intelligent tweaks rather than massive swings of the nerf hammer. This way Protoss get to still enjoy some of their new found HOTS flexibility while giving some back to Terran too. That way, hopefully, both races are better off in aggregate and Starcraft itself better off as a result. Nobody has disagreed with the hellbat nerfs - but the amount they nerfed them. It was not a TvT nerf despite whatever they tell you: it was an accross the board nerf to Terran openings. WM nerf was 'because TvZ is getting stale', another pretty terrible reason. Balance in TvZ was looking really good with the better player usually winning (Unlike now - see any LR threat). The problem was that the same game over and over and over and over got boring so Mines got nerfed. I don't agree with that. That patch came after a whole bunch of rather silly TvT games. The unit itself was OK in TvZ and TvP from what I remember. I see no reason why Blizzard would lie. The nerf may have been over-heavy (I can't say for sure). But this is why, along with the WM nerf, I am generally against over patching. They tend to cause more trouble than they are worth. I don't understand what you are getting at with the first part of your post - isn't that what I wrote? They either lied and wanted to change TvZ/TvP but didn't want to say so, or they are really stupid...
Oh, maybe we misunderstood each other. I'd say they may have made a mistake (but I'm unsure). I don't believe they were being duplicitous, nor do I think they were being stupid. For me, these are some of the dangers of patching. You can fuck up.
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Thats why I think blizz never really truly is honest with us.
Part of the banshee buff to me was they really just wanted to kill hellbat drops 100% (banshee opener was 1 of the counters - Polt banshee build that he used during hots). I mean surely they don't think the banshee buff for hellbat nerf was anywhere near an even trade. Also bunker in mineral line was never a good counter to hellbat drops imo - better to use banshee or turret + WM / vikings or defensive hellbats of your own.
Either way I think a better nerf would be to remove medivac healing (a change tons of people suggested) - big part is that it would increase their lifespan by a crazy amount against marines early game before stim. This would not have killed the build completely but make it a bit weaker and would have also made the mid-game marauder/hellbat timings blizz was worried about weaker as well without killing them completely. But for some reason blizz wanted to kill the strats 100%.
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On February 08 2014 07:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
I wish other races got nerfs solely to make them more interesting.
Why would you wish nerfs into the game? The more fun stuff gets nerfed, the more stale the game gets...
I don't like nerfs, I prefer reworks and redesigns...
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On February 08 2014 07:48 JIJI_ wrote:
Thats why I think blizz never really truly is honest with us.
Part of the banshee buff to me was they really just wanted to kill hellbat drops 100% (banshee opener was 1 of the counters - Polt banshee build that he used during hots). I mean surely they don't think the banshee buff for hellbat nerf was anywhere near an even trade. Also bunker in mineral line was never a good counter to hellbat drops imo - better to use banshee or turret + WM / vikings or defensive hellbats of your own.
Either way I think a better nerf would be to remove medivac healing (a change tons of people suggested) - big part is that it would increase their lifespan by a crazy amount against marines early game before stim. This would not have killed the build completely but make it a bit weaker and would have also made the mid-game marauder/hellbat timings blizz was worried about weaker as well without killing them completely. But for some reason blizz wanted to kill the strats 100%.
They are not truly honest OR they do not understand the game. Sadly, every bit of information we get about their plans, the more I fear it is the second.
There were many options:
Damage to 18 +3/4 vs Light, Healing nerf, ....
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Northern Ireland25995 Posts
On February 08 2014 07:48 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
I wish other races got nerfs solely to make them more interesting. Why would you wish nerfs into the game? The more fun stuff gets nerfed, the more stale the game gets... I don't like nerfs, I prefer reworks and redesigns...
I was being facetious. Zergs can run around and get to huge muta flocks and that's apparently not problematic, we know the issues with TvP atm. Meanwhile Biomine was apparently monotonous so gets a bit of a nerf to encourage more tank play, which at least in conjunction with bio is pretty much non-existent given to how strong mutas currently are.
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On February 08 2014 07:48 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:46 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:44 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 07:39 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:36 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? From what I remember, it was because TvT had become a Hellbat fest. I was in two minds about that patch (as you may or may not know, I generally dislike most, if not all, patches) but it seemed the right way to go as a once cool match-up (TvT) had become just silly. If they want to return the Hellbat to 2 cargo space, rather than 4 that would be fine with me. Note also, that I was against the WM nerf. But that was because of all the ZvT complaining. A stronger WM and 4 HB per Medivac seems OK to me. Heck, I'd even be on board with looking at stim timings again (as that is one powerful upgrade). But, you would have to consider the effect of all of this on TvZ too (I am not sure if a big stim buff would not be too much). Unfortunately, generally speaking Blizzard have been very unwilling to roll back any patch. Realistically speaking I doubt any of these will happen. But, if nerfs to Protoss are to happen. Then, I'd like them to be good and intelligent tweaks rather than massive swings of the nerf hammer. This way Protoss get to still enjoy some of their new found HOTS flexibility while giving some back to Terran too. That way, hopefully, both races are better off in aggregate and Starcraft itself better off as a result. Nobody has disagreed with the hellbat nerfs - but the amount they nerfed them. It was not a TvT nerf despite whatever they tell you: it was an accross the board nerf to Terran openings. WM nerf was 'because TvZ is getting stale', another pretty terrible reason. Balance in TvZ was looking really good with the better player usually winning (Unlike now - see any LR threat). The problem was that the same game over and over and over and over got boring so Mines got nerfed. I don't agree with that. That patch came after a whole bunch of rather silly TvT games. The unit itself was OK in TvZ and TvP from what I remember. I see no reason why Blizzard would lie. The nerf may have been over-heavy (I can't say for sure). But this is why, along with the WM nerf, I am generally against over patching. They tend to cause more trouble than they are worth. I don't understand what you are getting at with the first part of your post - isn't that what I wrote? They either lied and wanted to change TvZ/TvP but didn't want to say so, or they are really stupid... Oh, maybe we misunderstood each other. I'd say they may have made a mistake (but I'm unsure). I don't believe they were being duplicitous, nor do I think they were being stupid. For me, these are some of the dangers of patching. You can fuck up.
I think we are arguing about different things, we don't disagree with each other, but we don't write the statements that fit to each other... :-)?
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On February 08 2014 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:48 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
I wish other races got nerfs solely to make them more interesting. Why would you wish nerfs into the game? The more fun stuff gets nerfed, the more stale the game gets... I don't like nerfs, I prefer reworks and redesigns... I was being facetious. Zergs can run around and get to huge muta flocks and that's apparently not problematic, we know the issues with TvP atm. Meanwhile Biomine was apparently monotonous so gets a bit of a nerf to encourage more tank play, which at least in conjunction with bio is pretty much non-existent given to how strong mutas currently are.
Ye, well, what is there to do about it. Just watch how the RO16 of all WCSes consists of Toss, Zerg, Maru, Taeja, Bomber and maybe 2/3 other Terrans that rape foreigners.. :p Which sadly, is quite likely xD
Tho to be fair, what you wrote is an ongoing pattern in SC2 patching...
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Edit: What the fuck I am responding to a 5-page old post for haha?
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On February 08 2014 07:41 Wombat_NI wrote:
WM nerf was premature IMO, just like the Queen patch in that it really did look that top Zergs were really figuring out ways to engage optimally anyway.
Win rates were really close to 50/50 before the nerf, and now I think that muta/ling vs bio/mine/thor favours zerg. I do feel the mine was probably too good pre nerf, but the tank "buff" was in no way adequate compensation.
I really miss that from BW, there was tons of OP shit, but it was ok since everyone had it. As soon as something sticks out in SC2 it gets mauled with the nerfhammer and some other unit is given a speed increase for no apparent reason.
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On February 08 2014 07:44 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:39 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:36 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? From what I remember, it was because TvT had become a Hellbat fest. I was in two minds about that patch (as you may or may not know, I generally dislike most, if not all, patches) but it seemed the right way to go as a once cool match-up (TvT) had become just silly. If they want to return the Hellbat to 2 cargo space, rather than 4 that would be fine with me. Note also, that I was against the WM nerf. But that was because of all the ZvT complaining. A stronger WM and 4 HB per Medivac seems OK to me. Heck, I'd even be on board with looking at stim timings again (as that is one powerful upgrade). But, you would have to consider the effect of all of this on TvZ too (I am not sure if a big stim buff would not be too much). Unfortunately, generally speaking Blizzard have been very unwilling to roll back any patch. Realistically speaking I doubt any of these will happen. But, if nerfs to Protoss are to happen. Then, I'd like them to be good and intelligent tweaks rather than massive swings of the nerf hammer. This way Protoss get to still enjoy some of their new found HOTS flexibility while giving some back to Terran too. That way, hopefully, both races are better off in aggregate and Starcraft itself better off as a result. Nobody has disagreed with the hellbat nerfs - but the amount they nerfed them. It was not a TvT nerf despite whatever they tell you: it was an accross the board nerf to Terran openings. WM nerf was 'because TvZ is getting stale', another pretty terrible reason. Balance in TvZ was looking really good with the better player usually winning (Unlike now - see any LR threat). The problem was that the same game over and over and over and over got boring so Mines got nerfed. I don't agree with that. That patch came after a whole bunch of rather silly TvT games. The unit itself was OK in TvZ and TvP from what I remember. I see no reason why Blizzard would lie. The nerf may have been over-heavy (I can't say for sure). But this is why, along with the WM nerf, I am generally against patching. Patches tend to cause more trouble than they are worth.
Bold position to hold (against patching) given the current state of the game.
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On smaller maps, where the distance between T and Z is not very large like Habitation Station, tanks are used more and more. But tanks will never be used on huge maps like Frost, cause it equals to: push and win or die.
That is why T is strugling using MMMM on bigger maps. Tanks are not viable, and WMs are too weak.
Blizzard must have known it, but still thought tank buff for WM nerf is the equal trade.
However, most of the community were pretty sure it was Not.
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EPT
