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It was not really unlimited, more like 8-9.
Yes about 9, but after engagement like half of the Mutas stayed alive.
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On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that.
Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed?
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On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed?
Because of TvT 
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On February 08 2014 06:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 06:19 Glorfindel! wrote:On February 08 2014 06:18 Plansix wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Exactly. Nerfing builds like blink/oracle only makes the game more dull and bland. Give Terran the tools to respond and not be to far behind and we get a better game as a whole. What would an example of such a "tool" be? Also fun how Terran should not be "to far behind"  Just... Behind  It's an all in, if the Terran comes out ahead every time, it's a crappy all in. And scouting solves a lot of problems. Most if the races can stop anything if they can see it comming. The problem is Protoss gets map control up until the all in hits.
I call BS on that. Do protoss even scout in PvT anymore? And I am not talking about the MsC.
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On February 08 2014 06:59 hipo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? Because of TvT
Nope, otherwise they would have played upon the fact Probes have 40 hit points, Drones 41 (+1 with Zerg regen) and SCVs/Marines 45.
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David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat.
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On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat.
I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins.
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On February 08 2014 06:59 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 06:29 Plansix wrote:On February 08 2014 06:19 Glorfindel! wrote:On February 08 2014 06:18 Plansix wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Exactly. Nerfing builds like blink/oracle only makes the game more dull and bland. Give Terran the tools to respond and not be to far behind and we get a better game as a whole. What would an example of such a "tool" be? Also fun how Terran should not be "to far behind" Just... Behind It's an all in, if the Terran comes out ahead every time, it's a crappy all in. And scouting solves a lot of problems. Most if the races can stop anything if they can see it comming. The problem is Protoss gets map control up until the all in hits. I call BS on that. Do protoss even scout in PvT anymore? And I am not talking about the MsC.
Yes? Every Protoss I have watched in a proffesional game has scouted in some way or another.
Also, they could revert that hellbat nerf and things would be ok, I think. I miss the hellbat.
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On February 08 2014 07:01 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 06:59 hipo wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? Because of TvT Nope, otherwise they would have played upon the fact Probes have 40 hit points, Drones 41 (+1 with Zerg regen) and SCVs/Marines 45.
The argumentation they used was because Hellbats were too powerful in TvT. They nerfed them to TvZ levels. Lol.
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On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result.
Like, warhound/hellbat/widow mine/about every WOL nerf to terran. Yep, makes sense. You are indeed right - the game is worse as a result, but that is because in a decently fair matchup one race got it's options cut and weakened while the other his options expanded and strenghtened. Guess once what happens if you do that?
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On February 08 2014 07:03 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat. I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins.
Bunkers can't be buffed because of TvZ, Missile Turret strenght is not a problem, it is the fact they are expensive to get (you need to invest 325/425 for decent Turret defense) and if you make the wrong call, they cost you the game.
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On February 08 2014 07:01 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 06:59 hipo wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? Because of TvT Nope, otherwise they would have played upon the fact Probes have 40 hit points, Drones 41 (+1 with Zerg regen) and SCVs/Marines 45.
Hold that shotgun - Current Hellbat attack allows +1 armor No CS marines that used Stimpack to survive 2 hellbat attacks - That is an important benchmark and happens very often =P?
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On February 08 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:03 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat. I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins. Bunkers can't be buffed because of TvZ, Missile Turret strenght is not a problem, it is the fact they are expensive to get (you need to invest 325/425 for decent Turret defense) and if you make the wrong call, they cost you the game.
acutally, if you buff the range on missle turrets. that would help a lot vs oracles and mutas.
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On February 08 2014 07:10 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:01 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 06:59 hipo wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? Because of TvT Nope, otherwise they would have played upon the fact Probes have 40 hit points, Drones 41 (+1 with Zerg regen) and SCVs/Marines 45. Hold that shotgun - Current Hellbat attack allows +1 armor No CS marines that used Stimpack to survive 2 hellbat attacks - That is an important benchmark and happens very often =P?
Nope, this kind of scenario is unlikely.
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On February 08 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:03 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat. I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins. Bunkers can't be buffed because of TvZ, Missile Turret strenght is not a problem, it is the fact they are expensive to get (you need to invest 325/425 for decent Turret defense) and if you make the wrong call, they cost you the game.
except they can buff bunker repair rate without unsetting TvZ since you won't have 5-6 scvs for 11-11s. The problem is protoss focus fire takes down bunkers too fast.
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On February 08 2014 07:12 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:03 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat. I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins. Bunkers can't be buffed because of TvZ, Missile Turret strenght is not a problem, it is the fact they are expensive to get (you need to invest 325/425 for decent Turret defense) and if you make the wrong call, they cost you the game. acutally, if you buff the range on missle turrets. that would help a lot vs oracles and mutas.
It really wouldn't:
Oracles can't handle the turret.
Mutalisk either overpower it or do not.
In none of the occasions, Range matters if you didn't mass turrets.
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On February 08 2014 07:12 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:10 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 06:59 hipo wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? Because of TvT Nope, otherwise they would have played upon the fact Probes have 40 hit points, Drones 41 (+1 with Zerg regen) and SCVs/Marines 45. Hold that shotgun - Current Hellbat attack allows +1 armor No CS marines that used Stimpack to survive 2 hellbat attacks - That is an important benchmark and happens very often =P? Nope, this kind of scenario is unlikely.
It's the only benchmark I can possibly think of for the 18 damage that would affect Tvt and wouldn't affect TvZ TvP, like DK promised.....
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I don't know why balance team has never considered slightly buffing turrets. It would help Terrans a lot.
Anyone has any ideas?
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On February 08 2014 07:14 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:03 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat. I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins. Bunkers can't be buffed because of TvZ, Missile Turret strenght is not a problem, it is the fact they are expensive to get (you need to invest 325/425 for decent Turret defense) and if you make the wrong call, they cost you the game. except they can buff bunker repair rate without unsetting TvZ since you won't have 5-6 scvs for 11-11s. The problem is protoss focus fire takes down bunkers too fast.
In fact, it happens quite regularly Terrans use the 2 Rax SCVs + 3 scvs from the main to bunkerrush. I don't think you can increase the repair rate early game, really. 11/11 is more of a fine line than you'd often think.
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On February 08 2014 07:14 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:03 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat. I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins. Bunkers can't be buffed because of TvZ, Missile Turret strenght is not a problem, it is the fact they are expensive to get (you need to invest 325/425 for decent Turret defense) and if you make the wrong call, they cost you the game. except they can buff bunker repair rate without unsetting TvZ since you won't have 5-6 scvs for 11-11s. The problem is protoss focus fire takes down bunkers too fast.
But you would need quite a ridiculous repair rate to properly hold Voidrays, Immortals or even 12+ stalks. (;
On February 08 2014 07:16 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:10 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 06:59 hipo wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? Because of TvT Nope, otherwise they would have played upon the fact Probes have 40 hit points, Drones 41 (+1 with Zerg regen) and SCVs/Marines 45. Hold that shotgun - Current Hellbat attack allows +1 armor No CS marines that used Stimpack to survive 2 hellbat attacks - That is an important benchmark and happens very often =P? Nope, this kind of scenario is unlikely. It's the only benchmark I can possibly think of for the 18 damage that would affect Tvt and wouldn't affect TvZ TvP, like DK promised.....
The 18 damage was chosen so that unupgraded Hellbats kill unupgraded Zerglings in 2 shots.
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EPT
