EPTDavid Kim answers Balance Questions on Battle.net forums -…
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12376 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
When an imbalanced matchup gets played, you're obviously not allowed to talk about the imbalance (TL rules), and you can't really talk about how amazing the blink allinner played either (because nobody thinks it's a cool build, not even Protosses). You kinda have to talk about something though, so that might as well be the loser's mistakes. LR rule to keep in mind: the loser is always wrong. Not a perfect rule, but not a bad one either. | ||
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AnonymousSC2
United States189 Posts
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dreamseller
Australia914 Posts
On February 09 2014 08:46 pure.Wasted wrote: If the races are so poorly designed that making the "average" Terran as good as the "average" Protoss makes the top Terrans dominate everyone else because Terran units reward mechanical skill more than units of other races, then fix the god damn units that don't reward mechanical skill. How is this even arguable? This gets my knickers so bunched it's not even funny. HOTS TvZ proved for a fact that it is possible to have asymmetric races that take roughly the same amount of mechanical skill to play. Settling for less is freaking lazy. yes this seems obvious, the ongoing travesty of the game is the laziness of the design. even the casual viewer can see the difference in skill requirement and is complaining when certain early game all-ins happen or certain late game compositions are reached. | ||
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PesteNoire
151 Posts
If I was in the balance team and I saw how this stuff was creating awful games + imbalances I would think it would be a high priority to find a fix. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
We still see Blink on the map occasionally but it's usually used as more of a harassment tool instead of just a pure all-in tool, which is interesting. Whether it's harass the gold, blinking from the 3rd back to the high ground in the middle, or harassing from behind the regular 4th, it makes it interesting. If say, Habitation Station was the only map in the entire map pool, Blink would never be a problem. Unfortunately the majority of the map pool has tons of blink-able surface area in the mains and naturals that that specific strategy is almost too much to defend properly. | ||
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Eliezar
United States481 Posts
StarCraft 2 has had a much longer run of high involvement, a gigantic scene, and has had much tougher competition in the computer gaming scene (LoL, DOTA, Kespa staying BW, WoW) and is still going along..in a genre that overall just isn't as popular. Back around 98 to 2001 there were RTS clones coming out left and right as well as MMOG clones of course. If I purchased a game I would love to get the time for money spent value that I got out of StarCraft 2 and if I ran the company making it I would love to get half the success that StarCraft 2 has gotten. Its amazing what people qualify as a good game, success, or balance...especially in a game that is still evolving as there are going to be more patches, an expansion, and more progression in the game itself. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On February 10 2014 13:17 Eliezar wrote: I love how so many people talk about how bad StarCraft 2 is when its longevity in popularity already exceeds any RTS I can think of...by the 5th ladder season in StarCraft the game was on its last throes outside of Korea. By Blizzard's first world championship (after using ladder season 4 and 5 as qualifiers) most of the good non Koreans were already retired or playing very little. Although we can argue that the golden years of Broodwar were starting about then it was pretty much in Korea alone. The big competition at that point in time was Quake and EverQuest as far as playing. StarCraft 2 has had a much longer run of high involvement, a gigantic scene, and has had much tougher competition in the computer gaming scene (LoL, DOTA, Kespa staying BW, WoW) and is still going along..in a genre that overall just isn't as popular. Back around 98 to 2001 there were RTS clones coming out left and right as well as MMOG clones of course. If I purchased a game I would love to get the time for money spent value that I got out of StarCraft 2 and if I ran the company making it I would love to get half the success that StarCraft 2 has gotten. Its amazing what people qualify as a good game, success, or balance...especially in a game that is still evolving as there are going to be more patches, an expansion, and more progression in the game itself. This "global" presence that people are thinking about still have far less viewers than BW viewership in the Kespa days. The problem is that SC2 have already passed its "peak" and is steadily declining. We are attempting to find ways in order to make it afloat. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 10 2014 11:47 ZenithM wrote: It's a vicious circle too. When a race struggles in a matchup, like T is in TvP, players tend to start taking more and more risks, leaving room for more potential mistakes, on top of having to fight the up-hill battle vs the stronger race. When this morning Maru attempted that 4 reaper build and lost with it, Protoss in the LR threads were all smug and shit, being like "Yeah, 4 reapers, haha Maru doesn't know how to play, slump slump blahblahblah". I don't even know what Maru wanted to accomplish with this unusual build, but be sure of that, Maru tried to mix things up because he knew a straight-up game is hard to play against someone like PartinG. That didn't work, he looked "bad" to those who think the game is balanced and that's a bit sad. 4 reapers into 3 rax stim is a strong build against 2-bases Blink. PartinG was just rewarded by accident for blindly poking with his MSC and delaying the second and third rax. On February 10 2014 13:13 SidianTheBard wrote: I agree with the people saying Maps are to be blamed, not Blink All-ins. I'll even go ahead and say look at Habitation Station. Blink is viable on the map, you can blink from the gold into the main, yet you can just bunch all 12 stalkers together and blink them all together, you have to do it ~3-4 at a time or else they won't make it. The natural is also small enough so there isn't tons of surface area to blink up, pick off a couple bunkers / time warp a specific area so terran can't reinforce fast enough. We still see Blink on the map occasionally but it's usually used as more of a harassment tool instead of just a pure all-in tool, which is interesting. Whether it's harass the gold, blinking from the 3rd back to the high ground in the middle, or harassing from behind the regular 4th, it makes it interesting. If say, Habitation Station was the only map in the entire map pool, Blink would never be a problem. Unfortunately the majority of the map pool has tons of blink-able surface area in the mains and naturals that that specific strategy is almost too much to defend properly. There is more to blame than maps since the same ones with the WoL blink all-in would be perfectly manageable. Besides, Protoss already dictates so many restrictions on map making with Forcefields that adding a "no/weak Blink" clause would result in even less choices than now. Why would you limit even more the numbers of features a competitive map can have when a simple MSC nerf would do? | ||
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TW
Poland255 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On February 10 2014 13:17 Eliezar wrote: I love how so many people talk about how bad StarCraft 2 is when its longevity in popularity already exceeds any RTS I can think of... That's funny, I can think of this one other RTS that was kind of a big deal for almost 15 years, and still is in some ways. | ||
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XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
On February 10 2014 22:04 Squat wrote: That's funny, I can think of this one other RTS that was kind of a big deal for almost 15 years, and still is in some ways. And SC2 is the successor of the RTS. . . | ||
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S1eth
Austria221 Posts
On February 10 2014 22:04 Squat wrote: That's funny, I can think of this one other RTS that was kind of a big deal for almost 15 years, and still is in some ways. That one was only really popular in 1 country. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On February 10 2014 22:07 XiaoJoyce- wrote: And SC2 is the successor of the RTS. . . No, it's not. I may have the same name, the same brand, the same iconography, but it is not a successor of BW. It has not earned that distinction. It is a game made by completely different people in a company that has changed into something not even remotely close to what it was in 1998. Trying go piggyback on BW's success and claim it somehow legitimizes SC2 is absurd. A sequel is not good just because the original was, it has to stand on its own merit. That one was only really popular in 1 country. That's strange, I remember tons of my friends and people in my school playing it. I remember lans and late night games for years. It was acclaimed as the best RTS ever made world wide, not just in Korea. The fact that Korea had a far superior competitive scene compared to the rest of the world is another matter. | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On February 10 2014 22:15 Squat wrote: No, it's not. I may have the same name, the same brand, the same iconography, but it is not a successor of BW. It has not earned that distinction. It is a game made by completely different people in a company that has changed into something not even remotely close to what it was in 1998. Trying go piggyback on BW's success and claim it somehow legitimizes SC2 is absurd. A sequel is not good just because the original was, it has to stand on its own merit. Which is why I am very happy that SC2 managed to not only stand on its own but surpass the original in a way that makes it in my view the greatest RTS of all time. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On February 10 2014 22:17 Adreme wrote: Which is why I am very happy that SC2 managed to not only stand on its own but surpass the original in a way that makes it in my view the greatest RTS of all time. So why is the Korean scene imploding? Why is it that blizzard has to supply continuous life support in the form of WCS, basically an artificial breathing cash infusion. Why is anything we ever read about retirements and teams disbanding? Why are the forums littered with people unhappy about asinine gameplay? Why do sponsors pull out and go for Dota and LoL instead? Why do we have retarded shit like SH turtle, 3 base deathball turtles, fuck all for social interaction? Why do pro players constantly complain about aspects of the game, from every race and level? You can only stick your head in the sand for so long, sooner or later the real world comes knocking. | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On February 10 2014 22:22 Squat wrote: So why is the Korean scene imploding? Why is it that blizzard has to supply continuous life support in the form of WCS, basically an artificial breathing ash infusion. Why is anything we ever read about retirements and teams disbanding? Why are the forums littered with people unhappy about asinine gameplay? Why do sponsors pull out and go for Dota and LoL instead? Why do we have retarded shit like SH turtle, 3 base deathball turtles, fuck all for social interaction? Why do pro players constantly complain about aspects of the game, from every race and level? You can only stick your head in the sand for so long, sooner or later the real world comes knocking. 1. Teams have been disbanding and reforming for 10 years so that in now way surprised me 2. When you add 90+ pros to an already established and full scene you can expect a ton of retirements 3. Forums have always and will always draw the unhappy people in a game. Go look at any AAA games forums and you will see people whining about it even if it was considered one of the best games of the year 4. I would say the much simpler gameplay combined with a much better team dynamic (ya I know we have teams in sc2 and in BW but they were largely individual games) makes it a much easier game to pickup and much easier game to watch and enjoy 5. I could spend well over an hour talking about all of the things that were annoying in BW outside of the controls but in the end I also really liked that game as well so the frustrations did not overcome that experience so I wont. 6. The popular games of LoL and Dota also fairly constantly have top players complaining about something or other so it isn't really unique to SC2 so I wonder if its more of a symptom of modern gaming combined with increased player freedom to speak out. 7. Most important point though is that while I respect the opinions of others my opinion is my opinion and if I like something I like it and I don't need it justified by what others like. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On February 10 2014 22:14 S1eth wrote: That one was only really popular in 1 country. Well alone in germany we had an active amateur clan league, filled with more than 100 clans when I played BW. (which was between 2001 and 2006 - so much longer after the release of the addon than we are now in SC2) In SC2 the competetive amateur scene is very close to nonexistant. And the number of non korean pro gamers is decreasing rapidly. BW was pretty lively around the globe. We had no pro scene out of korea, but the game was alive, way more than SC2 is right now! | ||
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Eliezar
United States481 Posts
On February 10 2014 22:04 Squat wrote: That's funny, I can think of this one other RTS that was kind of a big deal for almost 15 years, and still is in some ways. If you are saying that Broodwar was a big deal for 15 years then I don't know what to say. It was almost nonexistent in America by the time there was a Korean pro scene. Do you even know who sponsored and sent Maynard, Pillars, Grrrr... and Thor to go over to Korea? Did you even know that so many of the top players had retired and moved on long before that was even available. Broodwar had a very small cult following for the vast majority of those 15 years (outside of Korea). StarCraft 2 has had insanely more tournaments and audiences and a real scene. I traveled to and played in tournaments when Broodwar did have a vibrant North American player base. I played in PGL and i2e2 and did the prestreaming version of tastosis http://www.battlereports.com/viewreports.php?reportnum=1774 I wish StarCraft had half the scene that StarCraft 2 has had. There was a massive North American fan base with very few other games competing for attention, but no way to package the games to people. I remember the first VODs coming out and how amazing it was to see what players were actually doing (outside of obsing in games). There were fun rivalries (Canada vs US, Bnet vs Kali, Soso vs Grrrr) and the game was changing way more than StarCraft 2 has (can you imagine if they reduced banshee and voidray damage to about 40% of current in a patch? Did that in StarCraft) But Broodwar is more of the old ex girlfriend that you broke up with and later forget why you broke up and just remember what was good about her. No scene, very annoying battle.net (disconnects, sometimes two individuals couldn't be int eh same game), very annoying UI, very tedious gameplay, game was often played on completely imbalanced maps with races that were out of balance... Broodwar was a great game, with a great scene, with technical limitations and no money or events to push the culture. I still have my silly i2e2 vests, PGL mousepad, and picture of me holding a big check somewhere. I really loved the game. But saying it was huge like StarCraft 2 has been huge...just doesn't stand up to reality. | ||
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