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On February 09 2014 22:01 TW wrote:So right now there is no Terran on earth that can beat Soulkey or Parting. Do you think that this is a healthy state? Dont be rediculous. For Maru u can expect to take games from best Z and P. And the latest patch reminds me sth. After several months of Brooflord Infestor era, DK stated that there is no problem at the highest level of play, but to pretend he cared he decreased fungal range by one point. And as expected it had same impact as the latest patch == 0 impact!
maru not beating parting or soulkey recently does not mean he is in a slump.
you can still expect him to take games from best Z and P.
it does not mean he will 100% take games of them.
last loss in ZvT for soulkey :
14-01-12 vs TY
(so there is a Terran who can beat Soulkey)
as for Partling:
13-12-16 vs Maru
also, there were lots of nerf to infestors, it wasn't just "decreased fungal range by one point".
At least post your opinion in a less dramatic way and correct information.
a few losses doesnt mean maru is in slump.
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On February 09 2014 22:17 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 22:01 TW wrote:You don't have a clue what you are talking about. So right now there is no Terran on earth that can beat Soulkey or Parting. Do you think that this is a healthy state? Dont be rediculous. For Maru u can expect to take games from best Z and P. And the latest patch reminds me sth. After several months of Brooflord Infestor era, DK stated that there is no problem at the highest level of play, but to pretend he cared he decreased fungal range by one point. And as expected it had same impact as the latest patch == 0 impact! maru not beating parting or soulkey recently does not mean he is in a slump. you can still expect him to take games from best Z and P. it does not mean he will 100% take games of them. last loss in ZvT for soulkey : 14-01-12 vs TY (so there is a Terran who can beat Soulkey) as for Partling: 13-12-16 vs Maru also, there were lots of nerf to infestors, it wasn't just "decreased fungal range by one point". At least post your opinion in a less dramatic way and correct information. a few losses doesnt mean maru is in slump.
Soulkey lost an unscouted 11/11 against TY... Quoting his recent loss vs Cure would be more relevant.
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On February 09 2014 22:01 TW wrote:So right now there is no Terran on earth that can beat Soulkey or Parting. Do you think that this is a healthy state? Dont be rediculous. For Maru u can expect to take games from best Z and P. And the latest patch reminds me sth. After several months of Brooflord Infestor era, DK stated that there is no problem at the highest level of play, but to pretend he cared he decreased fungal range by one point. And as expected it had same impact as the latest patch == 0 impact!
Dude I created the mad marine fanclub. I know tvz tvp is not well balanced atm  my sarcasm-o-meter failed, so sorry for calling you out!
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On February 09 2014 08:46 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 08:33 TW wrote:Bly 2 - 0 Dear It just confirms What everybody knows. Good nonkorean Zerg or Protos can win against top Korean players, but top nonkorean Terrans cannot. I know they cannot buff T too much cause 3 top Koreans will dominate the scene, but why those few other Terrans have to be in a such disadvantage? If the races are so poorly designed that making the "average" Terran as good as the "average" Protoss makes the top Terrans dominate everyone else because Terran units reward mechanical skill more than units of other races, then fix the god damn units that don't reward mechanical skill. How is this even arguable? This gets my knickers so bunched it's not even funny. HOTS TvZ proved for a fact that it is possible to have asymmetric races that take roughly the same amount of mechanical skill to play. Settling for less is freaking lazy.
a lot of crap in this thread but that last part is actually interesting. This is why I love TvZ as a matchup both to watch and to play (especially just before the WM-nerf was released, when top zergs actually started to get some wins based on mechanical play and outmultitasking) and its ridiculous how little mechanics and multitasking (in comparison) seem to matter in PvZ.
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I just find it interesting that a lot of Protoss players here are pointing out pro terran's mistake when Ts lose, like Maru's game today. You know what, I could have done the same thing during the 1-1-1 era, no Protoss was playing 'perfectly' and lost. Same case for pre-WM nerf, if the Zerg was playing 'perfect', WM shouldn't be a problem.
That is the issue with balance right now, the terran's margin of error is razor thin while the Protoss can lose his MSC and still win.
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At least post your opinion in a less dramatic way
Ok sorry, maybe I was too angry.
I just miss good old days before WM patch, when TvZs where so amazing.
Early roach pushes, roach hydra plays, standard ling bane mutas and so on.
Zergs were really reaching their limits and thus we were getting great games.
Just recall Soulkey - Inno finals, Flash - DRG etc.
Right now? Every Zerg goes standard ling bane muta cause its so effective, and ends most likely when Z has critical number of Mutas.
Think what you want, but WM nerf killed this matchup.
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Northern Ireland25974 Posts
Mutas being ridiculous was only held in check because WMs were pretty potent, in ZvP the Phoenix fulfils that anti-muta role imo TOO well, but without it there's very little to deal with a good Muta user.
TLDR - Mutas with both that speed and the regen seems a bit much to me
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On February 10 2014 02:39 vthree wrote:
I just find it interesting that a lot of Protoss players here are pointing out pro terran's mistake when Ts lose, like Maru's game today. You know what, I could have done the same thing during the 1-1-1 era, no Protoss was playing 'perfectly' and lost. Same case for pre-WM nerf, if the Zerg was playing 'perfect', WM shouldn't be a problem.
Just because you're pointing out Maru's mistakes doesn't mean you think PvT is balanced...
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Stardust - Revenge game 3
Scouted blink all in, 4 bunkers, 3 barracks, no greed.
Blink into the main, 1 bunker down immediately, 2 timewarps (yes it is still possible after the patch) into GG.
And again DK said +25 for timewarp will solve the problem.
The more I see games after the patch, the more i am sure it solves nothing.
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On February 10 2014 06:53 TW wrote:
Stardust - Revenge game 3
Scouted blink all in, 4 bunkers, 3 barracks, no greed.
Blink into the main, 1 bunker down immediately, 2 timewarps (yes it is still possible after the patch) into GG.
And again DK said +25 for timewarp will solve the problem.
The more I see games after the patch, the more i am sure it solves nothing.
It could not solve anything since most of the time the first Time Warp already results in game-ending damage because the MSC provides perfect intel about Terran's defence, so Protoss can just Blink wherever you are not and cast Time Warp to intercept your bio which comes crawling in a terrible formation. Fortunately, since people are yelling "reduce MSC sight range" for weeks, we may get something in the next few months; probably a reduction from 14 to 13 for maximum trolling.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 10 2014 04:45 Wombat_NI wrote:
Mutas being ridiculous was only held in check because WMs were pretty potent, in ZvP the Phoenix fulfils that anti-muta role imo TOO well, but without it there's very little to deal with a good Muta user.
TLDR - Mutas with both that speed and the regen seems a bit much to me
Mutas are too binary in PvZ. Either protoss has no phoenix and can't get them in time and therefore dies automatically (nothing other than phoenix can deal with properly controlled mtuas at all), or the protoss has phoenix and can defend them. I won't say it's too well because muta corrupter if played well can be outrageously hard to deal with, and once infestors are on the field phoenix can't really engage the mutas except on defense and only if you've planned ahead.
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Northern Ireland25974 Posts
On February 10 2014 06:59 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 04:45 Wombat_NI wrote:
Mutas being ridiculous was only held in check because WMs were pretty potent, in ZvP the Phoenix fulfils that anti-muta role imo TOO well, but without it there's very little to deal with a good Muta user.
TLDR - Mutas with both that speed and the regen seems a bit much to me Mutas are too binary in PvZ. Either protoss has no phoenix and can't get them in time and therefore dies automatically (nothing other than phoenix can deal with properly controlled mtuas at all), or the protoss has phoenix and can defend them. I won't say it's too well because muta corrupter if played well can be outrageously hard to deal with, and once infestors are on the field phoenix can't really engage the mutas except on defense and only if you've planned ahead.
Mutas for a long time have really struck me as more of a snowball unit than a harassment option. Small numbers of mutalisks aren't particularly effective in a harass capacity, but if a game goes a certain way you have a huge ball of them that is too mobile and regens for anything other than a turtle + your whole army or go for a base trade to be an option in PvZ.
It used to be hard as hell, but a few storms + stalkers could at least defend them from the ground.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 10 2014 07:06 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 06:59 Whitewing wrote:On February 10 2014 04:45 Wombat_NI wrote:
Mutas being ridiculous was only held in check because WMs were pretty potent, in ZvP the Phoenix fulfils that anti-muta role imo TOO well, but without it there's very little to deal with a good Muta user.
TLDR - Mutas with both that speed and the regen seems a bit much to me Mutas are too binary in PvZ. Either protoss has no phoenix and can't get them in time and therefore dies automatically (nothing other than phoenix can deal with properly controlled mtuas at all), or the protoss has phoenix and can defend them. I won't say it's too well because muta corrupter if played well can be outrageously hard to deal with, and once infestors are on the field phoenix can't really engage the mutas except on defense and only if you've planned ahead. Mutas for a long time have really struck me as more of a snowball unit than a harassment option. Small numbers of mutalisks aren't particularly effective in a harass capacity, but if a game goes a certain way you have a huge ball of them that is too mobile and regens for anything other than a turtle + your whole army or go for a base trade to be an option in PvZ. It used to be hard as hell, but a few storms + stalkers could at least defend them from the ground.
Yeah, can't do that anymore because of the regen. Storm was the tool protoss had against them, since even though snowballed mutas would kill infinite stalkers, 2-3 storms and the mutas would all just get one-shot. Now if you storm the mutas, they just kill the templar, get 2-3 buildings or all the probes and zoom out with their speed buff before stalkers can get there, and 30 seconds later they're at full hp and the storms were meaningless.
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Yeah, can't do that anymore because of the regen. Storm was the tool protoss had against them, since even though snowballed mutas would kill infinite stalkers, 2-3 storms and the mutas would all just get one-shot. Now if you storm the mutas, they just kill the templar, get 2-3 buildings or all the probes and zoom out with their speed buff before stalkers can get there, and 30 seconds later they're at full hp and the storms were meaningless.
Same in TvZ. Mutas get into the main, natural wherever there is no army atm, kill like 4 turrets some addons, fly away, regen and the circle continous. Once Zerg has good micro, it is not likely he loses a single muta.
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I VOTE NEXT PATCH DAVID KIM SHOULD KILL HIMSELF
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 10 2014 04:49 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 02:39 vthree wrote:
I just find it interesting that a lot of Protoss players here are pointing out pro terran's mistake when Ts lose, like Maru's game today. You know what, I could have done the same thing during the 1-1-1 era, no Protoss was playing 'perfectly' and lost. Same case for pre-WM nerf, if the Zerg was playing 'perfect', WM shouldn't be a problem.
Just because you're pointing out Maru's mistakes doesn't mean you think PvT is balanced...
When the posters claims blink all-in is not an issue and the 'better' player won, yeah, I think they make it seem the poster thinks the game is balance.
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On February 10 2014 11:09 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 04:49 Nebuchad wrote:On February 10 2014 02:39 vthree wrote:
I just find it interesting that a lot of Protoss players here are pointing out pro terran's mistake when Ts lose, like Maru's game today. You know what, I could have done the same thing during the 1-1-1 era, no Protoss was playing 'perfectly' and lost. Same case for pre-WM nerf, if the Zerg was playing 'perfect', WM shouldn't be a problem.
Just because you're pointing out Maru's mistakes doesn't mean you think PvT is balanced... When the posters claims blink all-in is not an issue and the 'better' player won, yeah, I think they make it seem the poster thinks the game is balance.
I didn't take it as "blink all-in is not an issue". I took it as this isn't a standard situation and this isn't a standard game, just shut up already (a feeling I can totally relate to.)
While we're at it, let's not go into who's the better player. This has been done before.
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On February 10 2014 11:23 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 11:09 vthree wrote:On February 10 2014 04:49 Nebuchad wrote:On February 10 2014 02:39 vthree wrote:
I just find it interesting that a lot of Protoss players here are pointing out pro terran's mistake when Ts lose, like Maru's game today. You know what, I could have done the same thing during the 1-1-1 era, no Protoss was playing 'perfectly' and lost. Same case for pre-WM nerf, if the Zerg was playing 'perfect', WM shouldn't be a problem.
Just because you're pointing out Maru's mistakes doesn't mean you think PvT is balanced... When the posters claims blink all-in is not an issue and the 'better' player won, yeah, I think they make it seem the poster thinks the game is balance. I didn't take it as "blink all-in is not an issue". I took it as this isn't a standard situation and this isn't a standard game, just shut up already (a feeling I can totally relate to.) While we're at it, let's not go into who's the better player. This has been done before.
Don't you understand? If someone kept pointing out what exactly the Protoss needed to do 100% against 1/1/1 back in the day, wouldn't you feel that was a indicative of this person's view on the balance?
Balancing their own post with Maru's mistake as well as the opponent players' mistakes would make it appear more neutral.
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Northern Ireland25974 Posts
The current state of TvP re the Blink allin is somewhat reminiscent of the 1/1/1 in a way. It was holdable if you blind-countered it, and did pretty much 9/10 of the right moves to counter it. Equally, the Terran could always do something else and then you were often buggered
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It's a vicious circle too. When a race struggles in a matchup, like T is in TvP, players tend to start taking more and more risks, leaving room for more potential mistakes, on top of having to fight the up-hill battle vs the stronger race.
When this morning Maru attempted that 4 reaper build and lost with it, Protoss in the LR threads were all smug and shit, being like "Yeah, 4 reapers, haha Maru doesn't know how to play, slump slump blahblahblah".
I don't even know what Maru wanted to accomplish with this unusual build, but be sure of that, Maru tried to mix things up because he knew a straight-up game is hard to play against someone like PartinG. That didn't work, he looked "bad" to those who think the game is balanced and that's a bit sad.
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EPT
