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David Kim answers Balance Questions on Battle.net forums -…

Forum Index > SC2 General
759 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 35 36 37 38 Next All
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12385 Posts
February 09 2014 13:17 GMT
#721
On February 09 2014 22:01 TW wrote:
Show nested quote +
You don't have a clue what you are talking about.


So right now there is no Terran on earth that can beat Soulkey or Parting. Do you think that this is a healthy state? Dont be rediculous.

For Maru u can expect to take games from best Z and P.

And the latest patch reminds me sth. After several months of Brooflord Infestor era, DK stated that there is no problem at the highest level of play, but to pretend he cared he decreased fungal range by one point.

And as expected it had same impact as the latest patch == 0 impact!

maru not beating parting or soulkey recently does not mean he is in a slump.
you can still expect him to take games from best Z and P.
it does not mean he will 100% take games of them.

last loss in ZvT for soulkey :
14-01-12 vs TY
(so there is a Terran who can beat Soulkey)

as for Partling:
13-12-16 vs Maru

also, there were lots of nerf to infestors, it wasn't just "decreased fungal range by one point".

At least post your opinion in a less dramatic way and correct information.

a few losses doesnt mean maru is in slump.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
February 09 2014 13:19 GMT
#722
On February 09 2014 22:17 ETisME wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2014 22:01 TW wrote:
You don't have a clue what you are talking about.


So right now there is no Terran on earth that can beat Soulkey or Parting. Do you think that this is a healthy state? Dont be rediculous.

For Maru u can expect to take games from best Z and P.

And the latest patch reminds me sth. After several months of Brooflord Infestor era, DK stated that there is no problem at the highest level of play, but to pretend he cared he decreased fungal range by one point.

And as expected it had same impact as the latest patch == 0 impact!

maru not beating parting or soulkey recently does not mean he is in a slump.
you can still expect him to take games from best Z and P.
it does not mean he will 100% take games of them.

last loss in ZvT for soulkey :
14-01-12 vs TY
(so there is a Terran who can beat Soulkey)

as for Partling:
13-12-16 vs Maru

also, there were lots of nerf to infestors, it wasn't just "decreased fungal range by one point".

At least post your opinion in a less dramatic way and correct information.

a few losses doesnt mean maru is in slump.

Soulkey lost an unscouted 11/11 against TY... Quoting his recent loss vs Cure would be more relevant.
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
February 09 2014 13:34 GMT
#723
On February 09 2014 22:01 TW wrote:
Show nested quote +
You don't have a clue what you are talking about.


So right now there is no Terran on earth that can beat Soulkey or Parting. Do you think that this is a healthy state? Dont be rediculous.

For Maru u can expect to take games from best Z and P.

And the latest patch reminds me sth. After several months of Brooflord Infestor era, DK stated that there is no problem at the highest level of play, but to pretend he cared he decreased fungal range by one point.

And as expected it had same impact as the latest patch == 0 impact!

Dude I created the mad marine fanclub. I know tvz tvp is not well balanced atm my sarcasm-o-meter failed, so sorry for calling you out!
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
NEEDZMOAR
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Sweden1277 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-09 16:14:56
February 09 2014 16:14 GMT
#724
On February 09 2014 08:46 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2014 08:33 TW wrote:
Bly 2 - 0 Dear


It just confirms What everybody knows. Good nonkorean Zerg or Protos can win against top Korean players, but top nonkorean Terrans cannot.

I know they cannot buff T too much cause 3 top Koreans will dominate the scene, but why those few other Terrans have to be in a such disadvantage?


If the races are so poorly designed that making the "average" Terran as good as the "average" Protoss makes the top Terrans dominate everyone else because Terran units reward mechanical skill more than units of other races, then fix the god damn units that don't reward mechanical skill.

How is this even arguable? This gets my knickers so bunched it's not even funny.

HOTS TvZ proved for a fact that it is possible to have asymmetric races that take roughly the same amount of mechanical skill to play. Settling for less is freaking lazy.



a lot of crap in this thread but that last part is actually interesting. This is why I love TvZ as a matchup both to watch and to play (especially just before the WM-nerf was released, when top zergs actually started to get some wins based on mechanical play and outmultitasking) and its ridiculous how little mechanics and multitasking (in comparison) seem to matter in PvZ.
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-09 17:39:59
February 09 2014 17:39 GMT
#725
I just find it interesting that a lot of Protoss players here are pointing out pro terran's mistake when Ts lose, like Maru's game today. You know what, I could have done the same thing during the 1-1-1 era, no Protoss was playing 'perfectly' and lost. Same case for pre-WM nerf, if the Zerg was playing 'perfect', WM shouldn't be a problem.

That is the issue with balance right now, the terran's margin of error is razor thin while the Protoss can lose his MSC and still win.
TW
Profile Joined March 2012
Poland255 Posts
February 09 2014 19:43 GMT
#726
At least post your opinion in a less dramatic way


Ok sorry, maybe I was too angry.
I just miss good old days before WM patch, when TvZs where so amazing.

Early roach pushes, roach hydra plays, standard ling bane mutas and so on.
Zergs were really reaching their limits and thus we were getting great games.
Just recall Soulkey - Inno finals, Flash - DRG etc.

Right now? Every Zerg goes standard ling bane muta cause its so effective, and ends most likely when Z has critical number of Mutas.

Think what you want, but WM nerf killed this matchup.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25071 Posts
February 09 2014 19:45 GMT
#727
Mutas being ridiculous was only held in check because WMs were pretty potent, in ZvP the Phoenix fulfils that anti-muta role imo TOO well, but without it there's very little to deal with a good Muta user.

TLDR - Mutas with both that speed and the regen seems a bit much to me
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12161 Posts
February 09 2014 19:49 GMT
#728
On February 10 2014 02:39 vthree wrote:
I just find it interesting that a lot of Protoss players here are pointing out pro terran's mistake when Ts lose, like Maru's game today. You know what, I could have done the same thing during the 1-1-1 era, no Protoss was playing 'perfectly' and lost. Same case for pre-WM nerf, if the Zerg was playing 'perfect', WM shouldn't be a problem.


Just because you're pointing out Maru's mistakes doesn't mean you think PvT is balanced...
No will to live, no wish to die
TW
Profile Joined March 2012
Poland255 Posts
February 09 2014 21:53 GMT
#729
Stardust - Revenge game 3
Scouted blink all in, 4 bunkers, 3 barracks, no greed.

Blink into the main, 1 bunker down immediately, 2 timewarps (yes it is still possible after the patch) into GG.

And again DK said +25 for timewarp will solve the problem.
The more I see games after the patch, the more i am sure it solves nothing.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
February 09 2014 21:59 GMT
#730
On February 10 2014 06:53 TW wrote:
Stardust - Revenge game 3
Scouted blink all in, 4 bunkers, 3 barracks, no greed.

Blink into the main, 1 bunker down immediately, 2 timewarps (yes it is still possible after the patch) into GG.

And again DK said +25 for timewarp will solve the problem.
The more I see games after the patch, the more i am sure it solves nothing.

It could not solve anything since most of the time the first Time Warp already results in game-ending damage because the MSC provides perfect intel about Terran's defence, so Protoss can just Blink wherever you are not and cast Time Warp to intercept your bio which comes crawling in a terrible formation. Fortunately, since people are yelling "reduce MSC sight range" for weeks, we may get something in the next few months; probably a reduction from 14 to 13 for maximum trolling.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
February 09 2014 21:59 GMT
#731
On February 10 2014 04:45 Wombat_NI wrote:
Mutas being ridiculous was only held in check because WMs were pretty potent, in ZvP the Phoenix fulfils that anti-muta role imo TOO well, but without it there's very little to deal with a good Muta user.

TLDR - Mutas with both that speed and the regen seems a bit much to me


Mutas are too binary in PvZ. Either protoss has no phoenix and can't get them in time and therefore dies automatically (nothing other than phoenix can deal with properly controlled mtuas at all), or the protoss has phoenix and can defend them. I won't say it's too well because muta corrupter if played well can be outrageously hard to deal with, and once infestors are on the field phoenix can't really engage the mutas except on defense and only if you've planned ahead.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25071 Posts
February 09 2014 22:06 GMT
#732
On February 10 2014 06:59 Whitewing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2014 04:45 Wombat_NI wrote:
Mutas being ridiculous was only held in check because WMs were pretty potent, in ZvP the Phoenix fulfils that anti-muta role imo TOO well, but without it there's very little to deal with a good Muta user.

TLDR - Mutas with both that speed and the regen seems a bit much to me


Mutas are too binary in PvZ. Either protoss has no phoenix and can't get them in time and therefore dies automatically (nothing other than phoenix can deal with properly controlled mtuas at all), or the protoss has phoenix and can defend them. I won't say it's too well because muta corrupter if played well can be outrageously hard to deal with, and once infestors are on the field phoenix can't really engage the mutas except on defense and only if you've planned ahead.

Mutas for a long time have really struck me as more of a snowball unit than a harassment option. Small numbers of mutalisks aren't particularly effective in a harass capacity, but if a game goes a certain way you have a huge ball of them that is too mobile and regens for anything other than a turtle + your whole army or go for a base trade to be an option in PvZ.

It used to be hard as hell, but a few storms + stalkers could at least defend them from the ground.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
February 09 2014 22:13 GMT
#733
On February 10 2014 07:06 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2014 06:59 Whitewing wrote:
On February 10 2014 04:45 Wombat_NI wrote:
Mutas being ridiculous was only held in check because WMs were pretty potent, in ZvP the Phoenix fulfils that anti-muta role imo TOO well, but without it there's very little to deal with a good Muta user.

TLDR - Mutas with both that speed and the regen seems a bit much to me


Mutas are too binary in PvZ. Either protoss has no phoenix and can't get them in time and therefore dies automatically (nothing other than phoenix can deal with properly controlled mtuas at all), or the protoss has phoenix and can defend them. I won't say it's too well because muta corrupter if played well can be outrageously hard to deal with, and once infestors are on the field phoenix can't really engage the mutas except on defense and only if you've planned ahead.

Mutas for a long time have really struck me as more of a snowball unit than a harassment option. Small numbers of mutalisks aren't particularly effective in a harass capacity, but if a game goes a certain way you have a huge ball of them that is too mobile and regens for anything other than a turtle + your whole army or go for a base trade to be an option in PvZ.

It used to be hard as hell, but a few storms + stalkers could at least defend them from the ground.


Yeah, can't do that anymore because of the regen. Storm was the tool protoss had against them, since even though snowballed mutas would kill infinite stalkers, 2-3 storms and the mutas would all just get one-shot. Now if you storm the mutas, they just kill the templar, get 2-3 buildings or all the probes and zoom out with their speed buff before stalkers can get there, and 30 seconds later they're at full hp and the storms were meaningless.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
TW
Profile Joined March 2012
Poland255 Posts
February 09 2014 22:20 GMT
#734
Yeah, can't do that anymore because of the regen. Storm was the tool protoss had against them, since even though snowballed mutas would kill infinite stalkers, 2-3 storms and the mutas would all just get one-shot. Now if you storm the mutas, they just kill the templar, get 2-3 buildings or all the probes and zoom out with their speed buff before stalkers can get there, and 30 seconds later they're at full hp and the storms were meaningless.


Same in TvZ. Mutas get into the main, natural wherever there is no army atm, kill like 4 turrets some addons, fly away, regen and the circle continous. Once Zerg has good micro, it is not likely he loses a single muta.
RookerS
Profile Joined May 2013
Ivory Coast75 Posts
February 10 2014 01:57 GMT
#735
I VOTE NEXT PATCH DAVID KIM SHOULD KILL HIMSELF

User was temp banned for this post.
TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
February 10 2014 02:09 GMT
#736
On February 10 2014 04:49 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2014 02:39 vthree wrote:
I just find it interesting that a lot of Protoss players here are pointing out pro terran's mistake when Ts lose, like Maru's game today. You know what, I could have done the same thing during the 1-1-1 era, no Protoss was playing 'perfectly' and lost. Same case for pre-WM nerf, if the Zerg was playing 'perfect', WM shouldn't be a problem.


Just because you're pointing out Maru's mistakes doesn't mean you think PvT is balanced...


When the posters claims blink all-in is not an issue and the 'better' player won, yeah, I think they make it seem the poster thinks the game is balance.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12161 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-10 02:29:25
February 10 2014 02:23 GMT
#737
On February 10 2014 11:09 vthree wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2014 04:49 Nebuchad wrote:
On February 10 2014 02:39 vthree wrote:
I just find it interesting that a lot of Protoss players here are pointing out pro terran's mistake when Ts lose, like Maru's game today. You know what, I could have done the same thing during the 1-1-1 era, no Protoss was playing 'perfectly' and lost. Same case for pre-WM nerf, if the Zerg was playing 'perfect', WM shouldn't be a problem.


Just because you're pointing out Maru's mistakes doesn't mean you think PvT is balanced...


When the posters claims blink all-in is not an issue and the 'better' player won, yeah, I think they make it seem the poster thinks the game is balance.


I didn't take it as "blink all-in is not an issue". I took it as this isn't a standard situation and this isn't a standard game, just shut up already (a feeling I can totally relate to.)

While we're at it, let's not go into who's the better player. This has been done before.
No will to live, no wish to die
plogamer
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Canada3132 Posts
February 10 2014 02:36 GMT
#738
On February 10 2014 11:23 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2014 11:09 vthree wrote:
On February 10 2014 04:49 Nebuchad wrote:
On February 10 2014 02:39 vthree wrote:
I just find it interesting that a lot of Protoss players here are pointing out pro terran's mistake when Ts lose, like Maru's game today. You know what, I could have done the same thing during the 1-1-1 era, no Protoss was playing 'perfectly' and lost. Same case for pre-WM nerf, if the Zerg was playing 'perfect', WM shouldn't be a problem.


Just because you're pointing out Maru's mistakes doesn't mean you think PvT is balanced...


When the posters claims blink all-in is not an issue and the 'better' player won, yeah, I think they make it seem the poster thinks the game is balance.


I didn't take it as "blink all-in is not an issue". I took it as this isn't a standard situation and this isn't a standard game, just shut up already (a feeling I can totally relate to.)

While we're at it, let's not go into who's the better player. This has been done before.


Don't you understand? If someone kept pointing out what exactly the Protoss needed to do 100% against 1/1/1 back in the day, wouldn't you feel that was a indicative of this person's view on the balance?

Balancing their own post with Maru's mistake as well as the opponent players' mistakes would make it appear more neutral.

WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25071 Posts
February 10 2014 02:39 GMT
#739
The current state of TvP re the Blink allin is somewhat reminiscent of the 1/1/1 in a way. It was holdable if you blind-countered it, and did pretty much 9/10 of the right moves to counter it. Equally, the Terran could always do something else and then you were often buggered
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
February 10 2014 02:47 GMT
#740
It's a vicious circle too. When a race struggles in a matchup, like T is in TvP, players tend to start taking more and more risks, leaving room for more potential mistakes, on top of having to fight the up-hill battle vs the stronger race.
When this morning Maru attempted that 4 reaper build and lost with it, Protoss in the LR threads were all smug and shit, being like "Yeah, 4 reapers, haha Maru doesn't know how to play, slump slump blahblahblah".
I don't even know what Maru wanted to accomplish with this unusual build, but be sure of that, Maru tried to mix things up because he knew a straight-up game is hard to play against someone like PartinG. That didn't work, he looked "bad" to those who think the game is balanced and that's a bit sad.
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