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lol @ ppl saying "no don't nerf blink, just make it easier for terran to scout and hold"
You do realize that's the same thing? When I say nerf, I don't mean "make blink take longer or nerf stalkers" directly... nerfing a strategy can be any solution, from nerfing the units that are used within it (this goes for stalkers and mothership core, vision of MSC for example) the abilities that are used within it (blink and time warp, which was already nerfed) or buffing the response to it (better scouting, earlier stim, etc etc)
Nobody can make a legitimate argument that blink all-in as a strategy is fine. Nobody is saying the blink ability needs nerfing directly. Making this distinction is probably a good idea before arguing.
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On February 08 2014 07:17 TW wrote:
I don't know why balance team has never considered slightly buffing turrets. It would help Terrans a lot.
Anyone has any ideas?
Buffing Turrets is so dangerous:
- Bio vs Mech balance
- Oracles viability
- Phoenix viability
- 2 base Spire
- Banshees
Just to name a few - You do shut down a lot if you give them a damage/splash buff.
Still, there is NO reason to buff turrets flat out, maybe with a lategame upgrade, but Turrets are not too weak in ther current state: the problem is NOT Turrets not dealing their damage and doing their Job - they're marvelous at that.
The problem is recognising when you need them.
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On February 08 2014 07:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 06:59 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:29 Plansix wrote:On February 08 2014 06:19 Glorfindel! wrote:On February 08 2014 06:18 Plansix wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Exactly. Nerfing builds like blink/oracle only makes the game more dull and bland. Give Terran the tools to respond and not be to far behind and we get a better game as a whole. What would an example of such a "tool" be? Also fun how Terran should not be "to far behind"  Just... Behind  It's an all in, if the Terran comes out ahead every time, it's a crappy all in. And scouting solves a lot of problems. Most if the races can stop anything if they can see it comming. The problem is Protoss gets map control up until the all in hits. I call BS on that. Do protoss even scout in PvT anymore? And I am not talking about the MsC. Yes? Every Protoss I have watched in a proffesional game has scouted in some way or another. Also, they could revert that hellbat nerf and things would be ok, I think. I miss the hellbat.
Yonghwa vs Flash Set1 Code A?
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I actually liked most of the suggestions by TheDwf a few pages back. I won't go into detail on all of them, and i don't think that implementing all of them at the same time would be a good idea. Especially the stim, warp in time, and tank change appeals to me quite a bit. I can imagine the stim change would open up some possiblities in tvz too.
I do find it hard to estimate the magnitude of these effects, though.
The post i was talking about:
+ Show Spoiler +On February 08 2014 02:03 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 01:34 Glorfindel! wrote:Stardust replies: Son Suk hee @StardustSC2 48 min@M_Dayshi i agree pvt is broken  but how to fix.. will be super hard to fix Honestly it seems rather trivial to balance TvP... Without even touching much to Photon Overcharge, there's a lot to do. Just some examples of what they could do: Protoss General Warp-in time increased to 8 seconds, up from 5. Mothership Core Hit points decreased to 60/105, down from 60/135. Sight range decreased to 9, down from 14. Photon Overcharge casting range decreased to 7, down from 10. Oracle Movement speed decreased to 3.5, down from 4. Storm Search time increased to 140 seconds, up from 110. Tempest Damage to Massive air targets decreased to 50 (+5), down from 80 (+5). Terran Stim Search time decreased to 140 seconds, down from 170. Ghost Cost decreased to 175/100, down from 200/100. Reaper Sight range increased to 10, up from 9. Ghost Academy Moebius Reactor reintroduced. Tactical Nukes now deal 750 damage, up from 500, in the center of the radius. And if you want some mech as a bonus: Tanks Now deal +15 damage to Massive targets while in Siege Mode. Immortal Hardened shield has been reworked. It still reduces damage from 10-20 to 10, but any attack dealing more than 20 damage is halved instead of reduced to 10.
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On February 08 2014 07:19 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:17 TW wrote:
I don't know why balance team has never considered slightly buffing turrets. It would help Terrans a lot.
Anyone has any ideas? Buffing Turrets is so dangerous: - Bio vs Mech balance - Oracles viability - Phoenix viability - 2 base Spire - Banshees Just to name a few - You do shut down a lot if you give them a damage/splash buff. Still, there is NO reason to buff turrets flat out, maybe with a lategame upgrade, but Turrets are not too weak in ther current state: the problem is NOT Turrets not dealing their damage and doing their Job - they're marvelous at that. The problem is recognising when you need them.
Well, if the range for the turret in the middle of the mineral line covers all SCVs (including the ones on gas), that would help with the oracle. The thing is, if you have 1 turret in the mineral line, the protoss can still get kills on the gas SCVs as well as SCV going to make buildings.
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On February 08 2014 07:17 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:14 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:03 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat. I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins. Bunkers can't be buffed because of TvZ, Missile Turret strenght is not a problem, it is the fact they are expensive to get (you need to invest 325/425 for decent Turret defense) and if you make the wrong call, they cost you the game. except they can buff bunker repair rate without unsetting TvZ since you won't have 5-6 scvs for 11-11s. The problem is protoss focus fire takes down bunkers too fast. But you would need quite a ridiculous repair rate to properly hold Voidrays, Immortals or even 12+ stalks. (; Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:16 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:10 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 06:59 hipo wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? Because of TvT Nope, otherwise they would have played upon the fact Probes have 40 hit points, Drones 41 (+1 with Zerg regen) and SCVs/Marines 45. Hold that shotgun - Current Hellbat attack allows +1 armor No CS marines that used Stimpack to survive 2 hellbat attacks - That is an important benchmark and happens very often =P? Nope, this kind of scenario is unlikely. It's the only benchmark I can possibly think of for the 18 damage that would affect Tvt and wouldn't affect TvZ TvP, like DK promised..... The 18 damage was chosen so that unupgraded Hellbats kill unupgraded Zerglings in 2 shots.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9423503358#1
I quote:
As always, we’ve been keeping a close eye on the balance of things, and have decided to address the issues concerning Terran and the Hellbat.
Here are our thoughts:
1. Hellbat drops are mainly an issue for TvT.
2. Terran isn't over performing so while nerfing Hellbats, we’d like to simultaneously push a buff to the Banshee.
3. We think seeing less Hellbat play in the early mid game is not a bad thing, as other Terran harass options are a lot more interesting to watch.
4. This change will also address any other lingering concerns we may have with Hellbats outside of TvT when it comes to early mid game.
So overall, we believe the changes we've been testing in the balance test map are solid for Hellbats:
Attack damage decreased from 18 +12 vs. light to 18.
The Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade increases attack damage from 18 to 18 +12 vs. light.
Banshee changes on the other hand, we're planning on going ahead with just the cost reduction change only:
Cloaking Field research cost decreased from 200/200 to 100/100
Let us know if you have any feedback. We are looking to implement these changes sometime this week.
He clearly states he is nerfing for TvT. Why did he nerf the Hellbat to a level where it'd barely not affect Zerglings? 18 damage +3/4 light would not have changed a thing in the other matchups but would be fine in TvT. Meanwhile, the cloak buff was bullshit already because of how accessible detection became because of the Mine.
That patch was a flat out slap in the face for Terran, worded to make it seem like it improved TvT, while in fact cutting a good strategy out of TvZ/TvP.
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On February 08 2014 07:22 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:19 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:17 TW wrote:
I don't know why balance team has never considered slightly buffing turrets. It would help Terrans a lot.
Anyone has any ideas? Buffing Turrets is so dangerous: - Bio vs Mech balance - Oracles viability - Phoenix viability - 2 base Spire - Banshees Just to name a few - You do shut down a lot if you give them a damage/splash buff. Still, there is NO reason to buff turrets flat out, maybe with a lategame upgrade, but Turrets are not too weak in ther current state: the problem is NOT Turrets not dealing their damage and doing their Job - they're marvelous at that. The problem is recognising when you need them. Well, if the range for the turret in the middle of the mineral line covers all SCVs (including the ones on gas), that would help with the oracle. The thing is, if you have 1 turret in the mineral line, the protoss can still get kills on the gas SCVs as well as SCV going to make buildings.
Going to make buildings would requre 20 range.
On the gas. It's fair for the Oracle to still be able to do some damage, the damage on Gas/end of the mineral line can be mitigated with some marines for extra defense or by reacting in time. Turrets make Oracle harrass hard, they don't shut it down. That's a good thing.
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On February 08 2014 07:23 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:14 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:03 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat. I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins. Bunkers can't be buffed because of TvZ, Missile Turret strenght is not a problem, it is the fact they are expensive to get (you need to invest 325/425 for decent Turret defense) and if you make the wrong call, they cost you the game. except they can buff bunker repair rate without unsetting TvZ since you won't have 5-6 scvs for 11-11s. The problem is protoss focus fire takes down bunkers too fast. But you would need quite a ridiculous repair rate to properly hold Voidrays, Immortals or even 12+ stalks. (; On February 08 2014 07:16 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:10 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 06:59 hipo wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:
[quote]
You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? Because of TvT Nope, otherwise they would have played upon the fact Probes have 40 hit points, Drones 41 (+1 with Zerg regen) and SCVs/Marines 45. Hold that shotgun - Current Hellbat attack allows +1 armor No CS marines that used Stimpack to survive 2 hellbat attacks - That is an important benchmark and happens very often =P? Nope, this kind of scenario is unlikely. It's the only benchmark I can possibly think of for the 18 damage that would affect Tvt and wouldn't affect TvZ TvP, like DK promised..... The 18 damage was chosen so that unupgraded Hellbats kill unupgraded Zerglings in 2 shots. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9423503358#1I quote: Show nested quote +As always, we’ve been keeping a close eye on the balance of things, and have decided to address the issues concerning Terran and the Hellbat.
Here are our thoughts:
1. Hellbat drops are mainly an issue for TvT.
2. Terran isn't over performing so while nerfing Hellbats, we’d like to simultaneously push a buff to the Banshee.
3. We think seeing less Hellbat play in the early mid game is not a bad thing, as other Terran harass options are a lot more interesting to watch.
4. This change will also address any other lingering concerns we may have with Hellbats outside of TvT when it comes to early mid game.
So overall, we believe the changes we've been testing in the balance test map are solid for Hellbats:
Attack damage decreased from 18 +12 vs. light to 18.
The Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade increases attack damage from 18 to 18 +12 vs. light.
Banshee changes on the other hand, we're planning on going ahead with just the cost reduction change only:
Cloaking Field research cost decreased from 200/200 to 100/100
Let us know if you have any feedback. We are looking to implement these changes sometime this week. He clearly states he is nerfing for TvT. Why did he nerf the Hellbat to a level where it'd barely not affect Zerglings? 18 damage +3/4 light would not have changed a thing in the other matchups but would be fine in TvT. Meanwhile, the cloak buff was bullshit already because of how accessible detection became because of the Mine. That patch was a flat out slap in the face for Terran, worded to make it seem like it improved TvT, while in fact cutting a good strategy out of TvZ/TvP. To be honest, i didn't like the hellbat one bit. I'm glad it's pretty much out of sight. That there was no compensation for lost strength; yeah, I can agree.
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On February 08 2014 07:21 Yorbon wrote:
I actually liked most of the suggestions by TheDwf a few pages back. I won't go into detail on all of them, and i don't think that implementing all of them at the same time would be a good idea. Especially the stim, warp in time, and tank change appeals to me quite a bit. I can imagine the stim change would open up some possiblities in tvz too.
I do find it hard to estimate the magnitude of these effects, though.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=442782¤tpage=28#557
Edit this in - makes it easier to find :D
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On February 08 2014 07:25 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:14 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:03 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat. I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins. Bunkers can't be buffed because of TvZ, Missile Turret strenght is not a problem, it is the fact they are expensive to get (you need to invest 325/425 for decent Turret defense) and if you make the wrong call, they cost you the game. except they can buff bunker repair rate without unsetting TvZ since you won't have 5-6 scvs for 11-11s. The problem is protoss focus fire takes down bunkers too fast. But you would need quite a ridiculous repair rate to properly hold Voidrays, Immortals or even 12+ stalks. (; On February 08 2014 07:16 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:10 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 06:59 hipo wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:
[quote]
No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins.
Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range).
But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result.
Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that.
Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? Because of TvT Nope, otherwise they would have played upon the fact Probes have 40 hit points, Drones 41 (+1 with Zerg regen) and SCVs/Marines 45. Hold that shotgun - Current Hellbat attack allows +1 armor No CS marines that used Stimpack to survive 2 hellbat attacks - That is an important benchmark and happens very often =P? Nope, this kind of scenario is unlikely. It's the only benchmark I can possibly think of for the 18 damage that would affect Tvt and wouldn't affect TvZ TvP, like DK promised..... The 18 damage was chosen so that unupgraded Hellbats kill unupgraded Zerglings in 2 shots. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9423503358#1I quote: As always, we’ve been keeping a close eye on the balance of things, and have decided to address the issues concerning Terran and the Hellbat.
Here are our thoughts:
1. Hellbat drops are mainly an issue for TvT.
2. Terran isn't over performing so while nerfing Hellbats, we’d like to simultaneously push a buff to the Banshee.
3. We think seeing less Hellbat play in the early mid game is not a bad thing, as other Terran harass options are a lot more interesting to watch.
4. This change will also address any other lingering concerns we may have with Hellbats outside of TvT when it comes to early mid game.
So overall, we believe the changes we've been testing in the balance test map are solid for Hellbats:
Attack damage decreased from 18 +12 vs. light to 18.
The Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade increases attack damage from 18 to 18 +12 vs. light.
Banshee changes on the other hand, we're planning on going ahead with just the cost reduction change only:
Cloaking Field research cost decreased from 200/200 to 100/100
Let us know if you have any feedback. We are looking to implement these changes sometime this week. He clearly states he is nerfing for TvT. Why did he nerf the Hellbat to a level where it'd barely not affect Zerglings? 18 damage +3/4 light would not have changed a thing in the other matchups but would be fine in TvT. Meanwhile, the cloak buff was bullshit already because of how accessible detection became because of the Mine. That patch was a flat out slap in the face for Terran, worded to make it seem like it improved TvT, while in fact cutting a good strategy out of TvZ/TvP. To be honest, i didn't like the hellbat one bit. I'm glad it's pretty much out of sight. That there was no compensation for lost strength, I can agree with that.
You miss my point. I'm happy the Hellbat doesn't dominate TvT the way it used too (MAN was I bad vs those xD). BUT - the arguments used (TvT) DO NOT EXPLAIN the magnitute of the nerf.
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On February 08 2014 07:26 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:25 Yorbon wrote:On February 08 2014 07:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:14 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:03 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat. I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins. Bunkers can't be buffed because of TvZ, Missile Turret strenght is not a problem, it is the fact they are expensive to get (you need to invest 325/425 for decent Turret defense) and if you make the wrong call, they cost you the game. except they can buff bunker repair rate without unsetting TvZ since you won't have 5-6 scvs for 11-11s. The problem is protoss focus fire takes down bunkers too fast. But you would need quite a ridiculous repair rate to properly hold Voidrays, Immortals or even 12+ stalks. (; On February 08 2014 07:16 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:10 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 06:59 hipo wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:
[quote]
Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed?
Because of TvT Nope, otherwise they would have played upon the fact Probes have 40 hit points, Drones 41 (+1 with Zerg regen) and SCVs/Marines 45. Hold that shotgun - Current Hellbat attack allows +1 armor No CS marines that used Stimpack to survive 2 hellbat attacks - That is an important benchmark and happens very often =P? Nope, this kind of scenario is unlikely. It's the only benchmark I can possibly think of for the 18 damage that would affect Tvt and wouldn't affect TvZ TvP, like DK promised..... The 18 damage was chosen so that unupgraded Hellbats kill unupgraded Zerglings in 2 shots. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9423503358#1I quote: As always, we’ve been keeping a close eye on the balance of things, and have decided to address the issues concerning Terran and the Hellbat.
Here are our thoughts:
1. Hellbat drops are mainly an issue for TvT.
2. Terran isn't over performing so while nerfing Hellbats, we’d like to simultaneously push a buff to the Banshee.
3. We think seeing less Hellbat play in the early mid game is not a bad thing, as other Terran harass options are a lot more interesting to watch.
4. This change will also address any other lingering concerns we may have with Hellbats outside of TvT when it comes to early mid game.
So overall, we believe the changes we've been testing in the balance test map are solid for Hellbats:
Attack damage decreased from 18 +12 vs. light to 18.
The Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade increases attack damage from 18 to 18 +12 vs. light.
Banshee changes on the other hand, we're planning on going ahead with just the cost reduction change only:
Cloaking Field research cost decreased from 200/200 to 100/100
Let us know if you have any feedback. We are looking to implement these changes sometime this week. He clearly states he is nerfing for TvT. Why did he nerf the Hellbat to a level where it'd barely not affect Zerglings? 18 damage +3/4 light would not have changed a thing in the other matchups but would be fine in TvT. Meanwhile, the cloak buff was bullshit already because of how accessible detection became because of the Mine. That patch was a flat out slap in the face for Terran, worded to make it seem like it improved TvT, while in fact cutting a good strategy out of TvZ/TvP. To be honest, i didn't like the hellbat one bit. I'm glad it's pretty much out of sight. That there was no compensation for lost strength, I can agree with that. You miss my point. I'm happy the Hellbat doesn't dominate TvT the way it used too (MAN was I bad vs those xD). BUT - the arguments used (TvT) DO NOT EXPLAIN the magnitute of the nerf. Oops, indeed. I misread it a bit. Sorry.
@ toasties other post: I meant another post, although the 2 aren't unrelated :'). I edited the one i meant in my original post.
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On February 08 2014 07:23 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:14 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:03 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat. I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins. Bunkers can't be buffed because of TvZ, Missile Turret strenght is not a problem, it is the fact they are expensive to get (you need to invest 325/425 for decent Turret defense) and if you make the wrong call, they cost you the game. except they can buff bunker repair rate without unsetting TvZ since you won't have 5-6 scvs for 11-11s. The problem is protoss focus fire takes down bunkers too fast. But you would need quite a ridiculous repair rate to properly hold Voidrays, Immortals or even 12+ stalks. (; On February 08 2014 07:16 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:10 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 06:59 hipo wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:
[quote]
You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? Because of TvT Nope, otherwise they would have played upon the fact Probes have 40 hit points, Drones 41 (+1 with Zerg regen) and SCVs/Marines 45. Hold that shotgun - Current Hellbat attack allows +1 armor No CS marines that used Stimpack to survive 2 hellbat attacks - That is an important benchmark and happens very often =P? Nope, this kind of scenario is unlikely. It's the only benchmark I can possibly think of for the 18 damage that would affect Tvt and wouldn't affect TvZ TvP, like DK promised..... The 18 damage was chosen so that unupgraded Hellbats kill unupgraded Zerglings in 2 shots. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9423503358#1I quote: Show nested quote +As always, we’ve been keeping a close eye on the balance of things, and have decided to address the issues concerning Terran and the Hellbat.
Here are our thoughts:
1. Hellbat drops are mainly an issue for TvT.
2. Terran isn't over performing so while nerfing Hellbats, we’d like to simultaneously push a buff to the Banshee.
3. We think seeing less Hellbat play in the early mid game is not a bad thing, as other Terran harass options are a lot more interesting to watch.
4. This change will also address any other lingering concerns we may have with Hellbats outside of TvT when it comes to early mid game.
So overall, we believe the changes we've been testing in the balance test map are solid for Hellbats:
Attack damage decreased from 18 +12 vs. light to 18.
The Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade increases attack damage from 18 to 18 +12 vs. light.
Banshee changes on the other hand, we're planning on going ahead with just the cost reduction change only:
Cloaking Field research cost decreased from 200/200 to 100/100
Let us know if you have any feedback. We are looking to implement these changes sometime this week. He clearly states he is nerfing for TvT. Why did he nerf the Hellbat to a level where it'd barely not affect Zerglings? 18 damage +3/4 light would not have changed a thing in the other matchups but would be fine in TvT. Meanwhile, the cloak buff was bullshit already because of how accessible detection became because of the Mine. That patch was a flat out slap in the face for Terran, worded to make it seem like it improved TvT, while in fact cutting a good strategy out of TvZ/TvP.
As always, there's quite a huge gap between what they do, what they think they're doing and what really happens. I'm sure they just thought they were merely helping the poor Gold Zergs that did not know how to defend Hellion raids in May 2012. I'm also certain they did not even think about the impact of the Mine nerf on 1-1-1 openings in TvP, for instance. There are just so many things they overlook when they make changes.
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On February 08 2014 07:29 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:26 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:25 Yorbon wrote:On February 08 2014 07:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:14 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:03 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat. I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins. Bunkers can't be buffed because of TvZ, Missile Turret strenght is not a problem, it is the fact they are expensive to get (you need to invest 325/425 for decent Turret defense) and if you make the wrong call, they cost you the game. except they can buff bunker repair rate without unsetting TvZ since you won't have 5-6 scvs for 11-11s. The problem is protoss focus fire takes down bunkers too fast. But you would need quite a ridiculous repair rate to properly hold Voidrays, Immortals or even 12+ stalks. (; On February 08 2014 07:16 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:10 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 06:59 hipo wrote:[quote] Because of TvT Nope, otherwise they would have played upon the fact Probes have 40 hit points, Drones 41 (+1 with Zerg regen) and SCVs/Marines 45. Hold that shotgun - Current Hellbat attack allows +1 armor No CS marines that used Stimpack to survive 2 hellbat attacks - That is an important benchmark and happens very often =P? Nope, this kind of scenario is unlikely. It's the only benchmark I can possibly think of for the 18 damage that would affect Tvt and wouldn't affect TvZ TvP, like DK promised..... The 18 damage was chosen so that unupgraded Hellbats kill unupgraded Zerglings in 2 shots. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9423503358#1I quote: As always, we’ve been keeping a close eye on the balance of things, and have decided to address the issues concerning Terran and the Hellbat.
Here are our thoughts:
1. Hellbat drops are mainly an issue for TvT.
2. Terran isn't over performing so while nerfing Hellbats, we’d like to simultaneously push a buff to the Banshee.
3. We think seeing less Hellbat play in the early mid game is not a bad thing, as other Terran harass options are a lot more interesting to watch.
4. This change will also address any other lingering concerns we may have with Hellbats outside of TvT when it comes to early mid game.
So overall, we believe the changes we've been testing in the balance test map are solid for Hellbats:
Attack damage decreased from 18 +12 vs. light to 18.
The Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade increases attack damage from 18 to 18 +12 vs. light.
Banshee changes on the other hand, we're planning on going ahead with just the cost reduction change only:
Cloaking Field research cost decreased from 200/200 to 100/100
Let us know if you have any feedback. We are looking to implement these changes sometime this week. He clearly states he is nerfing for TvT. Why did he nerf the Hellbat to a level where it'd barely not affect Zerglings? 18 damage +3/4 light would not have changed a thing in the other matchups but would be fine in TvT. Meanwhile, the cloak buff was bullshit already because of how accessible detection became because of the Mine. That patch was a flat out slap in the face for Terran, worded to make it seem like it improved TvT, while in fact cutting a good strategy out of TvZ/TvP. To be honest, i didn't like the hellbat one bit. I'm glad it's pretty much out of sight. That there was no compensation for lost strength, I can agree with that. You miss my point. I'm happy the Hellbat doesn't dominate TvT the way it used too (MAN was I bad vs those xD). BUT - the arguments used (TvT) DO NOT EXPLAIN the magnitute of the nerf. Oops, indeed. I misread it a bit. Sorry. @ toasties other post: I meant another post, although the 2 aren't unrelated :'). I edited the one i meant in my original post.
OK =D! I always like to see such a link, makes sure I get the right post (which in this case, I clearly didn't haha!)
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Northern Ireland25648 Posts
On February 08 2014 07:25 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:14 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:03 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat. I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins. Bunkers can't be buffed because of TvZ, Missile Turret strenght is not a problem, it is the fact they are expensive to get (you need to invest 325/425 for decent Turret defense) and if you make the wrong call, they cost you the game. except they can buff bunker repair rate without unsetting TvZ since you won't have 5-6 scvs for 11-11s. The problem is protoss focus fire takes down bunkers too fast. But you would need quite a ridiculous repair rate to properly hold Voidrays, Immortals or even 12+ stalks. (; On February 08 2014 07:16 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:10 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 06:59 hipo wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:
[quote]
No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins.
Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range).
But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result.
Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that.
Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? Because of TvT Nope, otherwise they would have played upon the fact Probes have 40 hit points, Drones 41 (+1 with Zerg regen) and SCVs/Marines 45. Hold that shotgun - Current Hellbat attack allows +1 armor No CS marines that used Stimpack to survive 2 hellbat attacks - That is an important benchmark and happens very often =P? Nope, this kind of scenario is unlikely. It's the only benchmark I can possibly think of for the 18 damage that would affect Tvt and wouldn't affect TvZ TvP, like DK promised..... The 18 damage was chosen so that unupgraded Hellbats kill unupgraded Zerglings in 2 shots. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9423503358#1I quote: As always, we’ve been keeping a close eye on the balance of things, and have decided to address the issues concerning Terran and the Hellbat.
Here are our thoughts:
1. Hellbat drops are mainly an issue for TvT.
2. Terran isn't over performing so while nerfing Hellbats, we’d like to simultaneously push a buff to the Banshee.
3. We think seeing less Hellbat play in the early mid game is not a bad thing, as other Terran harass options are a lot more interesting to watch.
4. This change will also address any other lingering concerns we may have with Hellbats outside of TvT when it comes to early mid game.
So overall, we believe the changes we've been testing in the balance test map are solid for Hellbats:
Attack damage decreased from 18 +12 vs. light to 18.
The Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade increases attack damage from 18 to 18 +12 vs. light.
Banshee changes on the other hand, we're planning on going ahead with just the cost reduction change only:
Cloaking Field research cost decreased from 200/200 to 100/100
Let us know if you have any feedback. We are looking to implement these changes sometime this week. He clearly states he is nerfing for TvT. Why did he nerf the Hellbat to a level where it'd barely not affect Zerglings? 18 damage +3/4 light would not have changed a thing in the other matchups but would be fine in TvT. Meanwhile, the cloak buff was bullshit already because of how accessible detection became because of the Mine. That patch was a flat out slap in the face for Terran, worded to make it seem like it improved TvT, while in fact cutting a good strategy out of TvZ/TvP. To be honest, i didn't like the hellbat one bit. I'm glad it's pretty much out of sight. That there was no compensation for lost strength, I can agree with that.
It still had some potential as a meatshield/counter of sorts to heavy chargelot styles.
Anyway, speaking of what I consider anachronistic nerfs that can be reverted, what do you folks feel about the following?
1. Experiment with a stim research time buff. The nerf was a good move consider the map pool and the styles of the time, I'm not sure it's necessary anymore. Bar timing attacks, it would be mostly IMO a buff to Terran defensive play against things like Blink allins.
2. Revert the cost reduction to Protoss upgrades from +2 onwards. The +1 cost is pretty nice atm, it's a real staple of pressure builds vs Zergs. Considering that this buff went through in an era where Protoss needed a high sentry count relative to today and therefore a high gas expenditure, whereas now that is less the case I don't see a good reason for those costs to remain. All Protoss ground shares upgrades as well, Protoss can chrono upgrades as it is, those are big enough advantages without the costs being what they are. It may make hardcore Protoss turtling on 2 base while getting tech + upgrades a little less efficient and force Protoss to expand slightly more aggressively, giving Terrans a bit more to work with in the midgame.
3. Decrease the MSC sight range. I consider this value to have been created while the MSC was still rooted to the Nexus in beta. Whoever pointed this out, I think you're on the money. Psionic overcharge range correlating with the vision range of something that could originally only be placed ON a nexus is the only explanation I can come up with as to why the vision range is quite so high.
4. Revert the Oracle speed buff. Not really an anachronistic unit value, but one that didn't need changed. I would however make it more responsive and microable, with maybe an acceleration increase, or even looking at some of Lalush's ideas on air unit micro.
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On February 08 2014 07:30 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:14 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:03 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat. I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins. Bunkers can't be buffed because of TvZ, Missile Turret strenght is not a problem, it is the fact they are expensive to get (you need to invest 325/425 for decent Turret defense) and if you make the wrong call, they cost you the game. except they can buff bunker repair rate without unsetting TvZ since you won't have 5-6 scvs for 11-11s. The problem is protoss focus fire takes down bunkers too fast. But you would need quite a ridiculous repair rate to properly hold Voidrays, Immortals or even 12+ stalks. (; On February 08 2014 07:16 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:10 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 06:59 hipo wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:
[quote]
No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins.
Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range).
But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result.
Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that.
Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? Because of TvT Nope, otherwise they would have played upon the fact Probes have 40 hit points, Drones 41 (+1 with Zerg regen) and SCVs/Marines 45. Hold that shotgun - Current Hellbat attack allows +1 armor No CS marines that used Stimpack to survive 2 hellbat attacks - That is an important benchmark and happens very often =P? Nope, this kind of scenario is unlikely. It's the only benchmark I can possibly think of for the 18 damage that would affect Tvt and wouldn't affect TvZ TvP, like DK promised..... The 18 damage was chosen so that unupgraded Hellbats kill unupgraded Zerglings in 2 shots. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9423503358#1I quote: As always, we’ve been keeping a close eye on the balance of things, and have decided to address the issues concerning Terran and the Hellbat.
Here are our thoughts:
1. Hellbat drops are mainly an issue for TvT.
2. Terran isn't over performing so while nerfing Hellbats, we’d like to simultaneously push a buff to the Banshee.
3. We think seeing less Hellbat play in the early mid game is not a bad thing, as other Terran harass options are a lot more interesting to watch.
4. This change will also address any other lingering concerns we may have with Hellbats outside of TvT when it comes to early mid game.
So overall, we believe the changes we've been testing in the balance test map are solid for Hellbats:
Attack damage decreased from 18 +12 vs. light to 18.
The Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade increases attack damage from 18 to 18 +12 vs. light.
Banshee changes on the other hand, we're planning on going ahead with just the cost reduction change only:
Cloaking Field research cost decreased from 200/200 to 100/100
Let us know if you have any feedback. We are looking to implement these changes sometime this week. He clearly states he is nerfing for TvT. Why did he nerf the Hellbat to a level where it'd barely not affect Zerglings? 18 damage +3/4 light would not have changed a thing in the other matchups but would be fine in TvT. Meanwhile, the cloak buff was bullshit already because of how accessible detection became because of the Mine. That patch was a flat out slap in the face for Terran, worded to make it seem like it improved TvT, while in fact cutting a good strategy out of TvZ/TvP. As always, there's quite a huge gap between what they do, what they think they're doing and what really happens. I'm sure they just thought they were merely helping the poor Gold Zergs that did not know how to defend Hellion raids in May 2012. I'm also certain they did not even think about the impact of the Mine nerf on 1-1-1 openings in TvP, for instance. There are just so many things they overlook when they make changes.
They also tend to overlook a lot of things when they aren't making changes. See Swarmhosts...
Do they even look 0.0!?
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On February 08 2014 07:32 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:25 Yorbon wrote:On February 08 2014 07:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:14 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:03 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat. I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins. Bunkers can't be buffed because of TvZ, Missile Turret strenght is not a problem, it is the fact they are expensive to get (you need to invest 325/425 for decent Turret defense) and if you make the wrong call, they cost you the game. except they can buff bunker repair rate without unsetting TvZ since you won't have 5-6 scvs for 11-11s. The problem is protoss focus fire takes down bunkers too fast. But you would need quite a ridiculous repair rate to properly hold Voidrays, Immortals or even 12+ stalks. (; On February 08 2014 07:16 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:10 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 06:59 hipo wrote:On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:
[quote]
Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed?
Because of TvT Nope, otherwise they would have played upon the fact Probes have 40 hit points, Drones 41 (+1 with Zerg regen) and SCVs/Marines 45. Hold that shotgun - Current Hellbat attack allows +1 armor No CS marines that used Stimpack to survive 2 hellbat attacks - That is an important benchmark and happens very often =P? Nope, this kind of scenario is unlikely. It's the only benchmark I can possibly think of for the 18 damage that would affect Tvt and wouldn't affect TvZ TvP, like DK promised..... The 18 damage was chosen so that unupgraded Hellbats kill unupgraded Zerglings in 2 shots. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9423503358#1I quote: As always, we’ve been keeping a close eye on the balance of things, and have decided to address the issues concerning Terran and the Hellbat.
Here are our thoughts:
1. Hellbat drops are mainly an issue for TvT.
2. Terran isn't over performing so while nerfing Hellbats, we’d like to simultaneously push a buff to the Banshee.
3. We think seeing less Hellbat play in the early mid game is not a bad thing, as other Terran harass options are a lot more interesting to watch.
4. This change will also address any other lingering concerns we may have with Hellbats outside of TvT when it comes to early mid game.
So overall, we believe the changes we've been testing in the balance test map are solid for Hellbats:
Attack damage decreased from 18 +12 vs. light to 18.
The Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade increases attack damage from 18 to 18 +12 vs. light.
Banshee changes on the other hand, we're planning on going ahead with just the cost reduction change only:
Cloaking Field research cost decreased from 200/200 to 100/100
Let us know if you have any feedback. We are looking to implement these changes sometime this week. He clearly states he is nerfing for TvT. Why did he nerf the Hellbat to a level where it'd barely not affect Zerglings? 18 damage +3/4 light would not have changed a thing in the other matchups but would be fine in TvT. Meanwhile, the cloak buff was bullshit already because of how accessible detection became because of the Mine. That patch was a flat out slap in the face for Terran, worded to make it seem like it improved TvT, while in fact cutting a good strategy out of TvZ/TvP. To be honest, i didn't like the hellbat one bit. I'm glad it's pretty much out of sight. That there was no compensation for lost strength, I can agree with that. It still had some potential as a meatshield/counter of sorts to heavy chargelot styles. Anyway, speaking of what I consider anachronistic nerfs that can be reverted, what do you folks feel about the following? 1. Experiment with a stim research time buff. The nerf was a good move consider the map pool and the styles of the time, I'm not sure it's necessary anymore. Bar timing attacks, it would be mostly IMO a buff to Terran defensive play against things like Blink allins. 2. Revert the cost reduction to Protoss upgrades from +2 onwards. The +1 cost is pretty nice atm, it's a real staple of pressure builds vs Zergs. Considering that this buff went through in an era where Protoss needed a high sentry count relative to today and therefore a high gas expenditure, whereas now that is less the case I don't see a good reason for those costs to remain. All Protoss ground shares upgrades as well, Protoss can chrono upgrades as it is, those are big enough advantages without the costs being what they are. It may make hardcore Protoss turtling on 2 base while getting tech + upgrades a little less efficient and force Protoss to expand slightly more aggressively, giving Terrans a bit more to work with in the midgame. 3. Decrease the MSC sight range. I consider this value to have been created while the MSC was still rooted to the Nexus in beta. Whoever pointed this out, I think you're on the money. Psionic overcharge range correlating with the vision range of something that could originally only be placed ON a nexus is the only explanation I can come up with as to why the vision range is quite so high. 4. Revert the Oracle speed buff. Not really an anachronistic unit value, but one that didn't need changed. I would however make it more responsive and microable, with maybe an acceleration increase, or even looking at some of Lalush's ideas on air unit micro.
You're asking for 3 changes of the type we've never even heard DK -TALK- about: reverting changes he made previously, be it wrong or right. The other one is taken into consideration.
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On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed?
From what I remember, it was because TvT had become a Hellbat fest. I was in two minds about that patch (as you may or may not know, I generally dislike most, if not all, patches) but it seemed the right way to go as a once cool match-up (TvT) had become just silly. If they want to return the Hellbat to 2 cargo space, rather than 4 that would be fine with me.
Note also, that I was against the WM nerf. But that was because of all the ZvT complaining. A stronger WM and 4 HB per Medivac seems OK to me. Heck, I'd even be on board with looking at stim timings again (as that is one powerful upgrade). But, you would have to consider the effect of all of this on TvZ too (I am not sure if a big stim buff would not be too much).
Unfortunately, generally speaking Blizzard have been very unwilling to roll back any patch.
Realistically speaking I doubt any of these will happen. But, if nerfs to Protoss are to happen. Then, I'd like them to be good and intelligent tweaks (e.g. working with PO; tweaking both MSC vision and TW) rather than massive swings of the nerf hammer. This way Protoss get to still enjoy some of their new found HOTS flexibility while giving some back to Terran too. That way, hopefully, both races are better off in aggregate and Starcraft itself better off as a result.
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On February 08 2014 07:29 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 07:26 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:25 Yorbon wrote:On February 08 2014 07:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:14 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:03 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 JIJI_ wrote:
David Kim said it was for tvt when he gave the situation report back in July.
It annoys me how Protoss gets MSC because of pvp and Zerg gets stronger spore for ZvZ mutas but for tvt unit is nerfed heavily across the board.
I rly doubt they will ever revert a change once it happens though so it's sort of pointless to talk about oracle speed or the hellbat. I am not sure why turrets and bunkers were never buffed given the buffs to 'base' defensive. to weaken the early game all-ins. Bunkers can't be buffed because of TvZ, Missile Turret strenght is not a problem, it is the fact they are expensive to get (you need to invest 325/425 for decent Turret defense) and if you make the wrong call, they cost you the game. except they can buff bunker repair rate without unsetting TvZ since you won't have 5-6 scvs for 11-11s. The problem is protoss focus fire takes down bunkers too fast. But you would need quite a ridiculous repair rate to properly hold Voidrays, Immortals or even 12+ stalks. (; On February 08 2014 07:16 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 07:10 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 07:01 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 06:59 hipo wrote:[quote] Because of TvT Nope, otherwise they would have played upon the fact Probes have 40 hit points, Drones 41 (+1 with Zerg regen) and SCVs/Marines 45. Hold that shotgun - Current Hellbat attack allows +1 armor No CS marines that used Stimpack to survive 2 hellbat attacks - That is an important benchmark and happens very often =P? Nope, this kind of scenario is unlikely. It's the only benchmark I can possibly think of for the 18 damage that would affect Tvt and wouldn't affect TvZ TvP, like DK promised..... The 18 damage was chosen so that unupgraded Hellbats kill unupgraded Zerglings in 2 shots. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9423503358#1I quote: As always, we’ve been keeping a close eye on the balance of things, and have decided to address the issues concerning Terran and the Hellbat.
Here are our thoughts:
1. Hellbat drops are mainly an issue for TvT.
2. Terran isn't over performing so while nerfing Hellbats, we’d like to simultaneously push a buff to the Banshee.
3. We think seeing less Hellbat play in the early mid game is not a bad thing, as other Terran harass options are a lot more interesting to watch.
4. This change will also address any other lingering concerns we may have with Hellbats outside of TvT when it comes to early mid game.
So overall, we believe the changes we've been testing in the balance test map are solid for Hellbats:
Attack damage decreased from 18 +12 vs. light to 18.
The Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade increases attack damage from 18 to 18 +12 vs. light.
Banshee changes on the other hand, we're planning on going ahead with just the cost reduction change only:
Cloaking Field research cost decreased from 200/200 to 100/100
Let us know if you have any feedback. We are looking to implement these changes sometime this week. He clearly states he is nerfing for TvT. Why did he nerf the Hellbat to a level where it'd barely not affect Zerglings? 18 damage +3/4 light would not have changed a thing in the other matchups but would be fine in TvT. Meanwhile, the cloak buff was bullshit already because of how accessible detection became because of the Mine. That patch was a flat out slap in the face for Terran, worded to make it seem like it improved TvT, while in fact cutting a good strategy out of TvZ/TvP. To be honest, i didn't like the hellbat one bit. I'm glad it's pretty much out of sight. That there was no compensation for lost strength, I can agree with that. You miss my point. I'm happy the Hellbat doesn't dominate TvT the way it used too (MAN was I bad vs those xD). BUT - the arguments used (TvT) DO NOT EXPLAIN the magnitute of the nerf. Oops, indeed. I misread it a bit. Sorry. @ toasties other post: I meant another post, although the 2 aren't unrelated :'). I edited the one i meant in my original post.
Read them - those changes have already been proposed quite often, to no avail.
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On February 08 2014 07:36 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 06:57 vthree wrote:On February 08 2014 06:14 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2014 06:01 ffadicted wrote:On February 08 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote:
If you nerf blink stalker openings and oracle opens to much, you just end up with turtle toss, which no one wants. If Terran needs more options, make that possible through scouting or other routes. Nerfing effective builds is not the way to go. Buffing underused strats is better. You also don't want a game with too many amazing early game/all-in possibilities. Blink is too strong right now, it needs to be looked at. No, thanks. Blink research was already nerfed by about 70 seconds (iirc) in HOTS. Reduce the vision of the MSC to 11 (as with all other flyers). That will help with countering blink play. Make TW an upgrade at Core. That will help with blink all-ins. Continue tweaking PO (by looking at range and casting range). But, don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play. The game is worse as a result. Edit/ Sorry, 30 seconds, I think. I'll have to check that. Don't nerf an option that allows for pressure and good active play? Then why were hellbats nerfed? From what I remember, it was because TvT had become a Hellbat fest. I was in two minds about that patch (as you may or may not know, I generally dislike most, if not all, patches) but it seemed the right way to go as a once cool match-up (TvT) had become just silly. If they want to return the Hellbat to 2 cargo space, rather than 4 that would be fine with me. Note also, that I was against the WM nerf. But that was because of all the ZvT complaining. A stronger WM and 4 HB per Medivac seems OK to me. Heck, I'd even be on board with looking at stim timings again (as that is one powerful upgrade). But, you would have to consider the effect of all of this on TvZ too (I am not sure if a big stim buff would not be too much). Unfortunately, generally speaking Blizzard have been very unwilling to roll back any patch. Realistically speaking I doubt any of these will happen. But, if nerfs to Protoss are to happen. Then, I'd like them to be good and intelligent tweaks rather than massive swings of the nerf hammer. This way Protoss get to still enjoy some of their new found HOTS flexibility while giving some back to Terran too. That way, hopefully, both races are better off in aggregate and Starcraft itself better off as a result.
Nobody has disagreed with the hellbat nerfs - but the amount they nerfed them. It was not a TvT nerf despite whatever they tell you: it was an accross the board nerf to Terran openings.
WM nerf was 'because TvZ is getting stale', another pretty terrible reason. Balance in TvZ was looking really good with the better player usually winning (Unlike now - see any LR threat). The problem was that the same game over and over and over and over got boring so Mines got nerfed.
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