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On January 24 2014 23:19 TurboMaN wrote:
If a Terran wins, its not a balance issue any more. Only skill will advance in this season's Code S.
The distribution in code S does not accurately reflect balance and does not necessarily imply that terran is weak: If you look at the list of really high-caliber players for each race, only a couple of zergs (JD, Hyun) and tosses (Hero, MC) left Korea, while MOST of the best Terrans left (Taeja, MMA, Polt, Bomber, JJakji, mvp, ForGG). Had more of these players stayed in Korea the distribution would be considerably better.
Having said that, from my personal experience on the ladder (I'm a master zerg on EU) I do think toss is just slightly overpowered, but terran is by far not as weak as code S suggests (look at the warer going on right now -- the final four has 2 terrans and 2 tosses, Life and JD got crushed)
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Anyone who says Toss is not op is delusional,it became so obvious.
Just look at names of Protoss players who got in Code S and their career achievements.
Almost half of them,7 to be precise,didnt won squat or have ever played Code S.Dont get me wrong,im not saying that some of them didnt excel in their play.But if you compare them to Zerg players who qualified,just 5 out 13 with no achievements.
And then take a look at Terran players not qualified for Code S.Only 3 out of 13 have never played in Code S,and most of them are quite big names in SC2.
The numbers are clear:
Toss Code A 17 -> Code S 11
Zerg Code A 16 -> Code S 11
Terran Code A 15 -> Code S 2
It remains to be seen how Toss players will do in Code S,especially those 7 newcomers.
My guess they will get stomped by established Toss and Zerg players (and Maru,hopefully he will get 3 toss in hes group lolz).
The worst thing about this situation is that it will hurt SC2 as a game.No Terran player will get motivated to get on the ladder and play after watching only toss and zerg for 3 months.Its bad enough one loose almost every 3rd game on ladder.
PS
Talking about what was in that or that season is stupid and pointless.There was never a season with only 3 representatives of one race.
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On January 26 2014 02:39 EladTL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 23:19 TurboMaN wrote:
If a Terran wins, its not a balance issue any more. Only skill will advance in this season's Code S. The distribution in code S does not accurately reflect balance and does not necessarily imply that terran is weak: If you look at the list of really high-caliber players for each race, only a couple of zergs (JD, Hyun) and tosses (Hero, MC) left Korea, while MOST of the best Terrans left (Taeja, MMA, Polt, Bomber, JJakji, mvp, ForGG). Had more of these players stayed in Korea the distribution would be considerably better. Having said that, from my personal experience on the ladder (I'm a master zerg on EU) I do think toss is just slightly overpowered, but terran is by far not as weak as code S suggests (look at the warer going on right now -- the final four has 2 terrans and 2 tosses, Life and JD got crushed)
scrubs like flash, innovation or TY got protossed.
unknown randoms like Keen, Gumiho or Hack got protossed too.
in the meanwhile gosu like Ruin, Panic or Myungisk advanced... did you watch code A?
and you advice to watch a meaningless online invitational to compare the results?
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by far the worst thing about this situation is that we have to deal with it for a full 3 months. thats one fourth or even one third of 2014's GSL that is mostly wasted in my eyes.
even if better maps are introduced or balance patches come out soon™, it will still take months until the GSL becomes watchable again.
#MaruFighting
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a BIG part of it is so many maps where blink can be abused......1st step is add in some dam maps on ladder that aren't so strong 4 blink
2 base blink is BS and every1 knows it
oracle is a JOKE almost impossible to lose this unit now with its acceleration and speed
those 2 things puts toss so far ahead in the early game (even the fact that they exist u have to take them into consideration for your build or u auto-lose)
innovation (1 of my favorite players) losing 2 blink twice is a DISGRACE
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So, when does code S start up?
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I wonder how many more Protoss would be in Code S if Daedelus wasn't in the map pool.Off the top of my head I know Seed would have most likely been in. He lost twice to zergs in the deciding game on that map.
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Life is gonna win it all. Calling it now. Remember this day people!
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United States23455 Posts
On January 26 2014 10:17 mrRoflpwn wrote:
Life is gonna win it all. Calling it now. Remember this day people!
Good thing he probably won't have to play any terrans considering his games vs. Innovation today 
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Dark confirmed winner of GSL 2014.
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On January 26 2014 02:39 EladTL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 23:19 TurboMaN wrote:
If a Terran wins, its not a balance issue any more. Only skill will advance in this season's Code S. The distribution in code S does not accurately reflect balance and does not necessarily imply that terran is weak: If you look at the list of really high-caliber players for each race, only a couple of zergs (JD, Hyun) and tosses (Hero, MC) left Korea, while MOST of the best Terrans left (Taeja, MMA, Polt, Bomber, JJakji, mvp, ForGG). Had more of these players stayed in Korea the distribution would be considerably better. Having said that, from my personal experience on the ladder (I'm a master zerg on EU) I do think toss is just slightly overpowered, but terran is by far not as weak as code S suggests (look at the warer going on right now -- the final four has 2 terrans and 2 tosses, Life and JD got crushed)
Completely Agree with you sir...
well constructed post. Although Warer is too small a sample size,,,when taken with proleague...I think your comments are logical and reasonable...
Why did TY not compete in Code A? Man that dude has serious skills...
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On January 26 2014 10:39 AxiomBlurr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2014 02:39 EladTL wrote:On January 24 2014 23:19 TurboMaN wrote:
If a Terran wins, its not a balance issue any more. Only skill will advance in this season's Code S. The distribution in code S does not accurately reflect balance and does not necessarily imply that terran is weak: If you look at the list of really high-caliber players for each race, only a couple of zergs (JD, Hyun) and tosses (Hero, MC) left Korea, while MOST of the best Terrans left (Taeja, MMA, Polt, Bomber, JJakji, mvp, ForGG). Had more of these players stayed in Korea the distribution would be considerably better. Having said that, from my personal experience on the ladder (I'm a master zerg on EU) I do think toss is just slightly overpowered, but terran is by far not as weak as code S suggests (look at the warer going on right now -- the final four has 2 terrans and 2 tosses, Life and JD got crushed) Completely Agree with you sir... well constructed post. Although Warer is too small a sample size,,,when taken with proleague...I think your comments are logical and reasonable... Why did TY not compete in Code A? Man that dude has serious skills...
TY got bitch slapped in the Code A quals by Yonghwa. So he did compete.
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Canada13405 Posts
On January 26 2014 07:03 JIJI_ wrote:
a BIG part of it is so many maps where blink can be abused......1st step is add in some dam maps on ladder that aren't so strong 4 blink
2 base blink is BS and every1 knows it
oracle is a JOKE almost impossible to lose this unit now with its acceleration and speed
those 2 things puts toss so far ahead in the early game (even the fact that they exist u have to take them into consideration for your build or u auto-lose)
innovation (1 of my favorite players) losing 2 blink twice is a DISGRACE
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okay, so you went off the handle there friend.
However, to be fair you do have a point about blink all ins, currently terran still hasnt figured out how to deal with it well or how to distinguish an all in from a pressure into third base (for 2 base variants).
While the map pool does make the blink more viable I am not sure if its entirely to blame. I mean once terrans figure out how to deal with the blink builds reliably or some changes come to early protoss vision we will see it drop off. Though some maps really do have too much area to manage in terms of blinkable space which only makes it worse.
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if the result of a small group shows how balanced the races are, what, if a terran wins Code S then? wouldn't that prove: terran is OP?
i am only a observer of pro games, tons of pro games. i don't play anymore. so, i have no ladder frustration or something like that. terran is not too weak in my opinion. and, i got to be careful what i am saying now.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On January 26 2014 02:39 EladTL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 23:19 TurboMaN wrote:
If a Terran wins, its not a balance issue any more. Only skill will advance in this season's Code S. The distribution in code S does not accurately reflect balance and does not necessarily imply that terran is weak: If you look at the list of really high-caliber players for each race, only a couple of zergs (JD, Hyun) and tosses (Hero, MC) left Korea, while MOST of the best Terrans left (Taeja, MMA, Polt, Bomber, JJakji, mvp, ForGG). Had more of these players stayed in Korea the distribution would be considerably better. Having said that, from my personal experience on the ladder (I'm a master zerg on EU) I do think toss is just slightly overpowered, but terran is by far not as weak as code S suggests (look at the warer going on right now -- the final four has 2 terrans and 2 tosses, Life and JD got crushed)
Sure it looks like that if you just take a brief glance. But let's take a closer look. Among the Terans that have left, I can only see two for sure that could have made it to Code S. Jjakji and Taeja.
Polt is a major question mark as his quality of play depends on his condition.
But for the rest? Mvp hasn't been on that level to compete with Code S Protoss in a long time (He lost to both hero and San in IEM Singapore in one-sided beatdowns.)
Bomber? He did exceptional against Chinese protoss but against Korean Toss has lost to sOs, Rain, MC, hero, Parting, Trap. We have to go back to GSTL last year to see any wins against Toss where he beat Tassadar and Alicia.
MMA? He beat Crank and Alicia at ATC, but lost to three Chinese Toss in ECL. He is a good player, but against the Toss that are currently fielded, I can't see him qualifying unless he gets a lucky group like Bbyong.
ForGG? Same case as Bomber. Does exceptional against Foreign Tosses, but loses to the top tier Code S tosses like sOs and Squirtle. Even if we disregard that, his TvZ is by far his worst and there is no way he could have made it past any of the zergs in Code S.
If you're going to make this argument, you should research it the entire way,.
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On January 26 2014 10:59 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2014 02:39 EladTL wrote:On January 24 2014 23:19 TurboMaN wrote:
If a Terran wins, its not a balance issue any more. Only skill will advance in this season's Code S. The distribution in code S does not accurately reflect balance and does not necessarily imply that terran is weak: If you look at the list of really high-caliber players for each race, only a couple of zergs (JD, Hyun) and tosses (Hero, MC) left Korea, while MOST of the best Terrans left (Taeja, MMA, Polt, Bomber, JJakji, mvp, ForGG). Had more of these players stayed in Korea the distribution would be considerably better. Having said that, from my personal experience on the ladder (I'm a master zerg on EU) I do think toss is just slightly overpowered, but terran is by far not as weak as code S suggests (look at the warer going on right now -- the final four has 2 terrans and 2 tosses, Life and JD got crushed) Sure it looks like that if you just take a brief glance. But let's take a closer look. Among the Terans that have left, I can only see two for sure that could have made it to Code S. Jjakji and Taeja. Polt is a major question mark as his quality of play depends on his condition. But for the rest? Mvp hasn't been on that level to compete with Code S Protoss in a long time (He lost to both hero and San in IEM Singapore in one-sided beatdowns.) Bomber? He did exceptional against Chinese protoss but against Korean Toss has lost to sOs, Rain, MC, hero, Parting, Trap. We have to go back to GSTL last year to see any wins against Toss where he beat Tassadar and Alicia. MMA? He beat Crank and Alicia at ATC, but lost to three Chinese Toss in ECL. He is a good player, but against the Toss that are currently fielded, I can't see him qualifying unless he gets a lucky group like Bbyong. ForGG? Same case as Bomber. Does exceptional against Foreign Tosses, but loses to the top tier Code S tosses like sOs and Squirtle. Even if we disregard that, his TvZ is by far his worst and there is no way he could have made it past any of the zergs in Code S. If you're going to make this argument, you should research it the entire way,.
Agreed. A lot of Protoss are just throwing names out there without looking at their recent results. Also, there are a lot of Korean Protoss playing in NA/EU as well with HerO, MC, San, First, Alicia, Crank, etc. although some of them aren't 'big name' like the Terrans, if you look at recent results, they match up quite well.
For the Terrans on list
Jjakji - had code S spot
taeja - very likely
Bomber, Polt - possibly
Mma, Mvp, ForGG- probably not
But if we had the Ps there, would Bbyong/Supernova had gotten through? So I think we are still looking at 5-6 Terrans max.
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I wont say terran is weak, I play terran myself... but the early game options and risks protoss does and gets away with it, is unfair. if your going to commit to an all in or any retarded build, you have to lose cuz you invested heavily into that strategy. I think thats fair and it doesnt take great skill to pull of cheesy/gimicky all ins if you play protoss cuz its just a build order win. I was thinking that if both upgrades at either engineering bay and armory can be accessible for hellbats would encourage more hellbat play due to that flexibility?? and i have a strong feeling gomtv is going to lose alot of viewers this season in code s cuz quite frankly not alot of ppl want to watch P V P and Z V Z cuz they are so boring to watch.
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On January 26 2014 10:56 ypslala wrote:
if the result of a small group shows how balanced the races are, what, if a terran wins Code S then? wouldn't that prove: terran is OP?
i am only a observer of pro games, tons of pro games. i don't play anymore. so, i have no ladder frustration or something like that. terran is not too weak in my opinion. and, i got to be careful what i am saying now.
well we had that situation before. Tons of Terrans in CodeS many said Terran is OP, and a few Zergs battled their way through the masses and won it all. Which people didn't care about. It is just a ton of Protoss players that have alot of different styles, so preparing for them is hard.
And if a Terran wins it only means that he had probably some sort of enlightenment against Protoss or that no one really trained XvT.
My bet is on a Zerg this season though.
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On January 26 2014 05:23 Black Gun wrote:
by far the worst thing about this situation is that we have to deal with it for a full 3 months. thats one fourth or even one third of 2014's GSL that is mostly wasted in my eyes.
even if better maps are introduced or balance patches come out soon™, it will still take months until the GSL becomes watchable again.
#MaruFighting
I would not count on much better Terran representation in next GSL. It's usually slow process.
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On January 26 2014 17:53 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2014 10:56 ypslala wrote:
if the result of a small group shows how balanced the races are, what, if a terran wins Code S then? wouldn't that prove: terran is OP?
i am only a observer of pro games, tons of pro games. i don't play anymore. so, i have no ladder frustration or something like that. terran is not too weak in my opinion. and, i got to be careful what i am saying now. well we had that situation before. Tons of Terrans in CodeS many said Terran is OP, and a few Zergs battled their way through the masses and won it all. Which people didn't care about. It is just a ton of Protoss players that have alot of different styles, so preparing for them is hard. And if a Terran wins it only means that he had probably some sort of enlightenment against Protoss or that no one really trained XvT. My bet is on a Zerg this season though.
battled through with overlord speed buff, queen range buff and stim+bunk+snipe nerfs
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EPT
