The final day of GSL Code A concluded, confirming 31/32 of the players to compete in the upcoming Code S tournament. With a record low three Terran players qualified for Code S, many fans were looking on to see if MVP.Dream and AX.Ryung could make their way through. However, both players were eliminated in the end, defeated by Zergs JinAir_TRUE and CJ_Hydra.
Code S will now proceed with 15 Protoss, 13 Zerg, and 3 Terran players. It is the lowest number of players for any one race in Code S history, with the previous low being 5 Protoss players in Code S October and November of 2011. The record high remains 20 Terrans in Code S October 2011.
On January 24 2014 22:10 Dodgin wrote: Wait, who is the jjakji replacement?
Not yet determined.
Well, anyway. Almost no ZvT's next season (-> My favorite matchup, by far!), no Terrans for Life to destroy (-> My favorite player :-P ) and lots of Skytoss vs SwarmHost-Turtle shit (-> The most annoying shit ever)...
... can't get rid of the feeling that's gonna be a really boring season. The first time I'm actually more excited for WCS NA, there's gonna be a great amount of awesome ZvT's (Bomber, Taeja, Polt vs Scarlett, Jaedong). And unfortunately, since the seasons take so long now, that's gonna be that way for quite some time :-/
Well, I'm not sure I will watch a lot of code S this season... I don't particularly like ZvZ or PvP... or even PvZ once it goes longer than the 15th minute mark.
Hopefully they let Innovation take Jjakji's spot as the player with highest WCS points from the previous season lol... 3 Terran players in Code S has gotta be a joke.
On January 24 2014 22:18 Darkhoarse wrote: Killer became the hero of an entire race when he was the only toss in the ro16. Maru, it is time to take up that responsibility.
Maru is going to need to construct additional swagger
It's ridiculous how few Terrans there are... Especially when you look back and see that the record low for Terran players in Code S before now is 11... Unless you count last year's OSL, then it's 8.
On January 24 2014 22:27 Khai wrote: Hopefully they let Innovation take Jjakji's spot as the player with highest WCS points from the previous season lol... 3 Terran players in Code S has gotta be a joke.
... Thus ironically telling a player recently eliminated from ascending into heaven that he gets to come in anyways.
Pretty troll Saint Peter at Code S's gate, in that case.
(Consider the difference between this and TaeJa for Hack in WCS AM, occurring without a challenger played. No problems in that unique situation)
If they follow suit with EU replacing duckdeok with Mvp and AM replacing Hack with TaeJa, INnoVation is the replacement... but this is Korea, there will probably be a wildcard qualifier out of the 3rd place players of the groups or something.
It is not that simple. How many patches were introduced between then. How many new things protoss got in Hots compare do WoL?
It wasn't a rough time in a balanced game, protoss was UP and they got a lot of buffs since then.
His point is that every race has highs and lows but usually they will bounce back, either on their own or with help from Blizzard. When Protoss got to this state, Blizzard was forced to take action about it because they weren't bouncing back on their own (1/1/1 was really good). I imagine the same will happen for Terran. It looks insanely bad for them to have it so one race in their game is vastly underrepresented.
Though the suggested changes they have on a test map don't exactly solve anything. The timewarp change might help but it doesn't solve the issue of the mothership core being the all-seeing spy satellite that can see way further than it should and enabling blink all-ins to be far easier than before. And I say that as a Protoss player. Whenever I see it play out it feels very 1/1/1ish. You can scout it coming, prepare and still get destroyed by it if you make a single mistake. No matter what the percentages say, that isn't a healthy matchup.
"Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance." I'm not sure why this needed to be in big letters on top of the article, or even mentioned at all. It's extremely leading and unprofessional, in my opinion. People can see for themselves.
Regardless, the distribution is a bit worrisome, but hopefully it will change next season!
On January 24 2014 23:15 thragar wrote: "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance." I'm not sure why this needed to be in big letters on top of the article, or even mentioned at all. It's extremely leading and unprofessional, in my opinion. People can see for themselves.
Regardless, the distribution is a bit worrisome, but hopefully it will change next season!
I agree but give them a rest, they're TL writers, not professionals :D
On January 24 2014 23:15 thragar wrote: "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance." I'm not sure why this needed to be in big letters on top of the article, or even mentioned at all. It's extremely leading and unprofessional, in my opinion. People can see for themselves.
Regardless, the distribution is a bit worrisome, but hopefully it will change next season!
I agree but give them a rest, they're TL writers, not professionals :D
Indeed. WaxAngel's job is to poke fun at everything. He's doing quite well. I wonder how his Kickstarter is going :D
All we need now is 3 terrans in one group and a strong vT with them. Maru would most likely make it out and win the season anyways If that happens I will LOL for days months years deades
On January 24 2014 22:39 ( bush wrote: Feel bad for GOM. eSF is already a sinking ship and now GSL Code S will have horrible games that no one wants to watch. Sad.
The worst thing is that there is very high chance for the next season to be like this as well.
If they follow me the same format then in Code A there is going to be 24 players from Code S in the Round of 48, so it will already be stacked with Protoss and Zerg.
On January 24 2014 23:15 thragar wrote: "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance." I'm not sure why this needed to be in big letters on top of the article, or even mentioned at all. It's extremely leading and unprofessional, in my opinion. People can see for themselves.
Regardless, the distribution is a bit worrisome, but hopefully it will change next season!
I agree but give them a rest, they're TL writers, not professionals :D
I find them usually quite professional! But yeah, it's no sweat. Still <3 TL writers. =]
Well, except for TaeJa and Polt for robbing NA/EU of their money, it has been a rough 6 - 10 months for Terrans, and it's still continuing. Just like the last 6 months of WoL against Zerg.
Seems like when it comes to Terran's prime time (after a new expansion) Blizzard is quick with the nerfs. They wont let players figure out strats. before nerfing Terran. Now with Protoss, as it was with Zerg, they take their precious time with "feedbacks" from players.
I figure It must hard being a competitive proffessional Terran and not making any money, but seeing so many other fellow Zerg and Protoss qualify for WCS Premier and what not.
On January 24 2014 23:15 thragar wrote: "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance." I'm not sure why this needed to be in big letters on top of the article, or even mentioned at all. It's extremely leading and unprofessional, in my opinion. People can see for themselves.
Regardless, the distribution is a bit worrisome, but hopefully it will change next season!
How is it "leading and unprofessional" to point out something that is factually accurate and to draw attention to one of the main storylines of the season
They didn't write "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance because they are underpowered David Kim please fix this or you should be Fired".
Wonder who the final seed will go to, and how it'll be decided. I'd like to see the code A dropouts have a tournament for it, but I'm sure that won't happen.
On January 24 2014 23:15 thragar wrote: "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance." I'm not sure why this needed to be in big letters on top of the article, or even mentioned at all. It's extremely leading and unprofessional, in my opinion. People can see for themselves.
Regardless, the distribution is a bit worrisome, but hopefully it will change next season!
How is it "leading and unprofessional" to point out something that is factually accurate and to draw attention to one of the main storylines of the season
They didn't write "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance because they are underpowered David Kim please fix this or you should be Fired".
On January 24 2014 23:15 thragar wrote: "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance." I'm not sure why this needed to be in big letters on top of the article, or even mentioned at all. It's extremely leading and unprofessional, in my opinion. People can see for themselves.
Regardless, the distribution is a bit worrisome, but hopefully it will change next season!
How is it "leading and unprofessional" to point out something that is factually accurate and to draw attention to one of the main storylines of the season
They didn't write "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance because they are underpowered David Kim please fix this or you should be Fired".
On January 24 2014 23:36 Plansix wrote: Ok Blizzard, it is time. Bring the Terran buffs, my body is ready.
decrease bunker build time by 5 seconds
Tank fire rate increased by .005. Damage unchanged.
well, if you give them such a buff, it is kinda unfair to the poor protoss opponents, so the sieging delay should be increased by about 2.25 seconds. Also, those things are heavy, so medivac should only be able to carry a single one at once.
And for the 5th time since winning the GSL, Seed was knocked out in the first round of Code A and headed again for code B. Its so surprising to me that he consistently qualifies for Code A/Challenger (4 out of the last 5 seasons) and then gets booted right out.
If there is a god he will help maru or his amazing tvp will carrie him anyways Blizz will do nothing about tvp , The Balance Map will Solve nothing at all. If this Trend continious and we end up with swarmhost / broodlord slugfests or Split Map nothing Happens for half an Hour Games in pvz i See The viewerbase decrease drasticly.
Lets Hope The 3 Terrans advance as far as possible so The Games are enjoyable and no zvz hell ... Gl maru !!
Damn was hoping Ryung would make it through. Didnt see the games, but personally, it shocks me that Hydra made it through above the Terrans in the final group. That dude plays so mediocrely in Proleague.
I'm Zerg and a massive terran hater but with that being said Terran is getting screwed hard and I actually feel bad for them right now this game imo when it comes to TvP is BROKEN mothership core needs vision range nerf to help with Blink all-ins. Like for real 3 TERRANS dont tell me this game is balanced David Kim ITS NOT!!!! I'm just thankful I don't play Terran but this massive imbalance in the number of players from each race that qualify is retarded and is hurting the game from a player standpoint as well as a viewers standpoint who just wants to watch a bunch of PvP in Code S this season I know I don't but life will go on I guess.
On January 25 2014 01:05 TronJovolta wrote: Damn was hoping Ryung would make it through. Didnt see the games, but personally, it shocks me that Hydra made it through above the Terrans in the final group. That dude plays so mediocrely in Proleague.
Watch the games and you will see why hydra deservedly advanced and ryung finished last.
On January 24 2014 23:15 thragar wrote: "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance." I'm not sure why this needed to be in big letters on top of the article, or even mentioned at all. It's extremely leading and unprofessional, in my opinion. People can see for themselves.
Regardless, the distribution is a bit worrisome, but hopefully it will change next season!
How is it "leading and unprofessional" to point out something that is factually accurate and to draw attention to one of the main storylines of the season
They didn't write "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance because they are underpowered David Kim please fix this or you should be Fired".
Well, because BIGGER FONT and placing certain things in front provide emphasis to facts. News articles are written so that the most important facts are first. By emphasizing this particular piece of information, which is not the heart of the information, it is leading.
For example, consider an article about alien prisons that says ONE IN THREE KLINGONS GO TO PRISON at the top. Clearly that is leading you to think that Klingons are a race of criminals, despite what other facts may follow later in the article. And even if Klingons turned out to be a race of criminals, that line is still leading.
There are other considerations as well as to the context and climate of the environment you're writing about. You should be very aware of things like this in order not to be manipulated by the media.
On January 24 2014 23:15 thragar wrote: "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance." I'm not sure why this needed to be in big letters on top of the article, or even mentioned at all. It's extremely leading and unprofessional, in my opinion. People can see for themselves.
Regardless, the distribution is a bit worrisome, but hopefully it will change next season!
How is it "leading and unprofessional" to point out something that is factually accurate and to draw attention to one of the main storylines of the season
They didn't write "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance because they are underpowered David Kim please fix this or you should be Fired".
Well, because BIGGER FONT and placing certain things in front provide emphasis to facts. News articles are written so that the most important facts are first. By emphasizing this particular piece of information, which is not the heart of the information, it is leading.
For example, consider an article about alien prisons that says ONE IN THREE KLINGONS GO TO PRISON at the top. Clearly that is leading you to think that Klingons are a race of criminals, despite what other facts may follow later in the article. And even if Klingons turned out to be a race of criminals, that line is still leading.
There are other considerations as well as to the context and climate of the environment you're writing about. You should be very aware of things like this in order not to be manipulated by the media.
These are very valid points, except I have to disagree slightly. Because the fact that very few terrans were advancing/were already in Code S has been a running theme and consistent talking point here on TL throughout Code A it is not surprising that this particular fact was chosen as the headline. Many (though certainly not all) starcraft fans were hoping for a little more terran representation in Code S. Those that could not watch last night's games probably went to TL thinking "I wonder who advanced?" The headline concisely answers this question by stating that the two terran players did not advance, thus confirming that the two zerg players advanced. Then again this is a pointless argument and I'm not sure why I wrote all this but now that I did I guess I have to hit post.
On January 24 2014 23:15 thragar wrote: "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance." I'm not sure why this needed to be in big letters on top of the article, or even mentioned at all. It's extremely leading and unprofessional, in my opinion. People can see for themselves.
Regardless, the distribution is a bit worrisome, but hopefully it will change next season!
How is it "leading and unprofessional" to point out something that is factually accurate and to draw attention to one of the main storylines of the season
They didn't write "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance because they are underpowered David Kim please fix this or you should be Fired".
Well, because BIGGER FONT and placing certain things in front provide emphasis to facts. News articles are written so that the most important facts are first. By emphasizing this particular piece of information, which is not the heart of the information, it is leading.
For example, consider an article about alien prisons that says ONE IN THREE KLINGONS GO TO PRISON at the top. Clearly that is leading you to think that Klingons are a race of criminals, despite what other facts may follow later in the article. And even if Klingons turned out to be a race of criminals, that line is still leading.
There are other considerations as well as to the context and climate of the environment you're writing about. You should be very aware of things like this in order not to be manipulated by the media.
What the hell how did this get twisted to me being naive and unable to keep my views from being controlled by the media?
On January 25 2014 01:02 kugel wrote: If there is a god he will help maru or his amazing tvp will carrie him anyways Blizz will do nothing about tvp , The Balance Map will Solve nothing at all. If this Trend continious and we end up with swarmhost / broodlord slugfests or Split Map nothing Happens for half an Hour Games in pvz i See The viewerbase decrease drasticly.
Lets Hope The 3 Terrans advance as far as possible so The Games are enjoyable and no zvz hell ... Gl maru !!
These are the words of someone who has watched maybe 2 PvZs. PvZ has way more variability, and would be considered better than TvZ if people didn't have this 3 year old illogical obsession with all things Terran. Korean Zergs aren't consistent users of swarm hosts and produce some great PvZ. Try it sometime!
On January 24 2014 23:15 thragar wrote: "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance." I'm not sure why this needed to be in big letters on top of the article, or even mentioned at all. It's extremely leading and unprofessional, in my opinion. People can see for themselves.
Regardless, the distribution is a bit worrisome, but hopefully it will change next season!
It's actually the opposite. It's professional to mention the elephant in the room that everyone will mention. To ignore the obvious and pretend it isn't there would be unprofessional and misleading.
I hope they do an online bracket for the code a losers to see who gets the last spot and not just give it to innovation because he had the most points (that's not already in code s) last year.
On January 25 2014 04:47 lopido wrote: Give the spot to someone who really deserves it, not Flash or innovation cuz they are terran.
what does it mean to deserve? Everyone not in code S lost in code B or A. At least bogus and flash had achivements in korea last year (most wcs pts, most pl wins)
On January 25 2014 04:59 Lovedoll wrote: I remember when people complained about Code S having 20 Terrans. And now we have 3.
thats how much terran got nerfed (not without a reason) and other two races got buffed dev team are really doing bad job if they still havent balanced a game after 3 years
anyways good luck having fun watching gsl this season
Looking at the player list, it's as if all the players with personality are in other regions now or out of Code S. I'm probably just going to check in for the finals with how bland this season looks. Say what you want about GomTvT but at least SOME of those matches were interesting with great comebacks and different strategies.
Give the seed to TY, isnt he killing it in proleague again? As much as I love Flash and Innovation they just lost in code A so I dont think they really deserve to then suddenly get seeded into code S. The seed needs to go to a terran lol full on bias and the fact that terrible race distribution makes for a much less interesting tournament.
On January 25 2014 05:54 JuiceBoxHero wrote: Give the seed to TY, isnt he killing it in proleague again? As much as I love Flash and Innovation they just lost in code A so I dont think they really deserve to then suddenly get seeded into code S.
As much as I like TY myself, giving the seed to a guy who lost in the code B finals is even more strange than giving it to someone who lost in code A.
i think they should just have an offline tourney with everyone who got knocked out in the fifth match of code a and obv the win gets the spot they all made it to code a and made it so close so why not just give them one last chance
On January 25 2014 05:39 R3DT1D3 wrote: Looking at the player list, it's as if all the players with personality are in other regions now or out of Code S. I'm probably just going to check in for the finals with how bland this season looks. Say what you want about GomTvT but at least SOME of those matches were interesting with great comebacks and different strategies.
And we haven't even seen these matches so how do we know they won't be interesting?
On January 25 2014 05:48 mothergoose729 wrote: I don't think I have ever seen a poorer representation of race in gsl. Terrans are doing so well in proleague but doing so poorly in this tournament.
Makes me sad. I play terran, I want to see some terran in gsl .
Ty Flash and Maru are doing well in proleague. Rest of terran are meh.
I bet they'll find some way to give the last spot to a Terran. My bet is on INnoVation as the player in Code A who had the most WCS points last year out of players in Korea. Though frankly they really should have filled this spot prior to Code A and given INnoVation's Code A spot to someone else.
Or maybe they'll just hold a tournament and Terran fans will be fully rejuvenated when TheBest wins it with YOLOSWAG420 three-port banshee rushes.
Also can't underestimate how many top Korean Terrans (compared to other races) have moved to NA/EU. Mvp. MMA. Bomber. TaeJa. Polt. jjakji. Compared to that only a few Code-S level Zerg/Protoss have left. This is not an accident of course--except for jjakji, the players who've left have huge international recognition, and the reason they do is because they were at the forefront of Terran domination of SC2 from its inception until Fall of 2012 or so.
On January 25 2014 06:38 Isualin wrote: Incoming "Bunker or barracks build time decreased by 1 seconds." They haven't touched either of them for a while now.
more like "salvage animation length reduced by 1 second, but you only get back 50% of the resources"
On January 25 2014 03:15 Cyanocyst wrote: Guys, I've been out of the loop for some time. but what happened?
Blizzard did the same thing they did in WoL, nerf Terran too much and give Zerg/Protoss buffs they didn't need resulting in a game where only a tiny number of elite Korean Terrans remain competitive. Except this time Protoss also has an edge in TvP, so we're seeing Terrans disappear altogether.
On January 25 2014 06:31 Master Blaster wrote: Anyone keeping up with challenger?? Europe is shaping up to be just as bad. RIP TvX.
I would be interested to see the active accounts this month and where the terrans are headed?
yeah but to be fair there were never really any good EU terrans outside Happy, Kas and Luci.
And ThorZaIN! But yeah, top Terrans in EU have historically been a practically extinct species. If anything we probably had inflated numbers of Terrans in WCS EU last year because of how OP Hellbats were for about half of the year.
TY, Flash, and Maru are currently top 3 for wins (w/l ratio) with TY 7-0 (no losses yet!). Too bad it's the complete opposite in GSL!
Speaking of TY, he's not even in GSL right now (not in code A or S). It'd be pretty funny if he managed to get most wins in PL but never even gets to code S!
Also, many of the best Terrans are in other WCS'. (MMA, Mvp, Taeja, Bomber, Jjakji, Polt). Though, it's ALSO worth noting that there are currently only two foreigner Terrans in WCS EU and AM (combined). There are still a few more to be played, so I'd expect to see one or two more foreign Terrans to each league, along with a couple Koreans.
Wow, i never thought gsl would be the most boring tournament to watch out of the three regions. NA looks like it is going to be sick and haven't seen the full line up for eu yet but have seen some great players there as well and already is more interesting to watch than gsl. GG gsl.
On January 25 2014 09:44 Blargh wrote: TY, Flash, and Maru are currently top 3 for wins (w/l ratio) with TY 7-0 (no losses yet!). Too bad it's the complete opposite in GSL!
Speaking of TY, he's not even in GSL right now (not in code A or S). It'd be pretty funny if he managed to get most wins in PL but never even gets to code S!
Hard for TY to get most wins, as he is not the ace on his team and there are no more AK rounds anymore, so he will have less chances to get games.
Metagame won't fix this, in the imbalance scale it went from 'salvageable' to 'it's too late now, everything is in ashes, you could have stopped it, why didn't you stop it?'
This will be the second GSL I won't watch since the RorO v Sniper one. I feel that nerfing terran to death always kills the game.
On January 24 2014 23:15 thragar wrote: "Final day of Code A sees Terrans fail to advance." I'm not sure why this needed to be in big letters on top of the article, or even mentioned at all. It's extremely leading and unprofessional, in my opinion. People can see for themselves.
Regardless, the distribution is a bit worrisome, but hopefully it will change next season!
Shut up you pompous ass. Theres nothing wrong with the title.
i do think terran is weak against p and maybe very very marginally weak against z right now, but the number of players in code s doesn't really mean anything. it's not that statistically outrageous for a bunch of terrans to just play poorly while the race is also slightly weak. there has to be some responsibility on the players to actually play out the games; it's not as if the distribution should be equal if terran players don't perform
On January 25 2014 11:11 AxiomBlurr wrote: Impressed with the power of Toss these days...but equally so with Zerg too...
Yet in all honesty...I Feel the Terrans in code A failed to perform...
They can only blame themselves...
God I hope youre joking
Why do you say that? They did fail to perform...15 in Code A with 2 qualifying...its easy and convenient to blame others and/or balance...but the Terran play we saw from, Flash to Innovation, was lacklustre...Who qualified? Byong and Supernova...both played exceptionally well...and did not fail to perform.
As for Toss and Zerg Power - - yes I am impressed. 15 Toss and 13 Zerg in GSL Code S is nothing to laugh at. Terrans for the most part got ktfo. Deal with it.
On January 25 2014 11:11 AxiomBlurr wrote: Impressed with the power of Toss these days...but equally so with Zerg too...
Yet in all honesty...I Feel the Terrans in code A failed to perform...
They can only blame themselves...
God I hope youre joking
Why do you say that? They did fail to perform...15 in Code A with 2 qualifying...its easy and convenient to blame others and/or balance...but the Terran play we saw from, Flash to Innovation, was lacklustre...Who qualified? Byong and Supernova...both played exceptionally well...and did not fail to perform.
As for Toss and Zerg Power - - yes I am impressed. 15 Toss and 13 Zerg in GSL Code S is nothing to laugh at. Terrans for the most part got ktfo. Deal with it.
Are you trolling?? Bbyong didnt have to play the Protoss in his group. Supernova lost to the Protoss in his group. He beat Coca 2 bo3 to advance.
On January 25 2014 11:11 AxiomBlurr wrote: Impressed with the power of Toss these days...but equally so with Zerg too...
Yet in all honesty...I Feel the Terrans in code A failed to perform...
They can only blame themselves...
God I hope youre joking
Why do you say that? They did fail to perform...15 in Code A with 2 qualifying...its easy and convenient to blame others and/or balance...but the Terran play we saw from, Flash to Innovation, was lacklustre...Who qualified? Byong and Supernova...both played exceptionally well...and did not fail to perform.
As for Toss and Zerg Power - - yes I am impressed. 15 Toss and 13 Zerg in GSL Code S is nothing to laugh at. Terrans for the most part got ktfo. Deal with it.
You are by far one of the dumbest people I've ever had the misfortune of crossing paths with. So according to you, the easy answer is that all of these top Korean Terrans just failed to perform at the same time? So even though they had a 21% win ratio in TvPs, that they only won one set against Toss collectively, and that the only Terrans to advance didn't play/lost to a Toss, it was just a general lackluster performance on their part as to why 2/15 Terrans advanced?? Are you serious right now? I'm going to stick with the much more obvious and simpler solution, and say that their race is currently underpowered versus the other two right now..I tend to like logic though, a trait you clearly do not share. These are professional players genius. There is not a snowball's chance in hell that so many of them just didn't perform all at once. The simple law of averages clearly disputes such an outrageous claim. For you two think otherwise just boggles my mind (you play Toss I'm guessing).
And fyi, Innovation has not been a top Terran for a while now, and Flash has not performed well in individual leagues since the first MLG of HotS..
On January 25 2014 12:03 Waise wrote: i do think terran is weak against p and maybe very very marginally weak against z right now, but the number of players in code s doesn't really mean anything. it's not that statistically outrageous for a bunch of terrans to just play poorly while the race is also slightly weak. there has to be some responsibility on the players to actually play out the games; it's not as if the distribution should be equal if terran players don't perform
In a balanced game the number of players representing each race at any level of play should be even, allowing for slight variations for the best players in the world (3-5 players at most) and the human factor throwing off a perfect equilibrium. When you have 11/16 and 11/17 advancing for Zerg and Toss respectively but only 2/15 Terran players, that is no where close to even. Not even in the same ball park. Why would only Terran players not perform while the other two races do? Especially when you're dealing with some of the best players in the world who can almost play this game in their sleep they know it so well? Is the most obvious answer not that its not that they weren't performing, but that they couldn't perform well due to playing with an underpowered race? It's a simple law of averages man.
On January 25 2014 11:11 AxiomBlurr wrote: Impressed with the power of Toss these days...but equally so with Zerg too...
Yet in all honesty...I Feel the Terrans in code A failed to perform...
They can only blame themselves...
God I hope youre joking
Why do you say that? They did fail to perform...15 in Code A with 2 qualifying...its easy and convenient to blame others and/or balance...but the Terran play we saw from, Flash to Innovation, was lacklustre...Who qualified? Byong and Supernova...both played exceptionally well...and did not fail to perform.
As for Toss and Zerg Power - - yes I am impressed. 15 Toss and 13 Zerg in GSL Code S is nothing to laugh at. Terrans for the most part got ktfo. Deal with it.
You are by far one of the dumbest people I've ever had the misfortune of crossing paths with. So according to you, the easy answer is that all of these top Korean Terrans just failed to perform at the same time? So even though they had a 21% win ratio in TvPs, that they only won one set against Toss collectively, and that the only Terrans to advance didn't play/lost to a Toss, it was just a general lackluster performance on their part as to why 2/15 Terrans advanced?? Are you serious right now? I'm going to stick with the much more obvious and simpler solution, and say that their race is currently underpowered versus the other two right now..I tend to like logic though, a trait you clearly do not share. These are professional players genius. There is not a snowball's chance in hell that so many of them just didn't perform all at once. The simple law of averages clearly disputes such an outrageous claim. For you two think otherwise just boggles my mind (you play Toss I'm guessing).
And fyi, Innovation has not been a top Terran for a while now, and Flash has not performed well in individual leagues since the first MLG of HotS..
1) Emotional personal accusations have dulled your arguement. 2) I play random. 3) Supernova had Stats beaten but engaged horribly on Habitation Station. 4) It is 'for you to' - not 'for you two.' 5) U mad bro? 6) Terran is a little underpowered vs the other two races...but for the most part they got knocked out because they failed to perform. To say otherwise is just lacking in objectivity. In the GSL in which there were only 5 Toss players..the situation was the same; P was a little underpowered but overall...it was a failure to perform that dropped the numbers so heavily.
If you would have told me in 2011 a day would come when I would see a GSL Code S with only 3 Terrans I wouldn't have believed it. Even though I am not a Terran player, all of my favourite matchups to watch include Terran in it, so I am a bit sad. On the bright side, guess I can learn a lot about PvP and PvZ this tournament.
On January 25 2014 12:03 Waise wrote: i do think terran is weak against p and maybe very very marginally weak against z right now, but the number of players in code s doesn't really mean anything. it's not that statistically outrageous for a bunch of terrans to just play poorly while the race is also slightly weak. there has to be some responsibility on the players to actually play out the games; it's not as if the distribution should be equal if terran players don't perform
In a balanced game the number of players representing each race at any level of play should be even, allowing for slight variations for the best players in the world (3-5 players at most) and the human factor throwing off a perfect equilibrium. When you have 11/16 and 11/17 advancing for Zerg and Toss respectively but only 2/15 Terran players, that is no where close to even. Not even in the same ball park. Why would only Terran players not perform while the other two races do? Especially when you're dealing with some of the best players in the world who can almost play this game in their sleep they know it so well? Is the most obvious answer not that its not that they weren't performing, but that they couldn't perform well due to playing with an underpowered race? It's a simple law of averages man.
Well seeing as how there were 20 Terrans in just 2011 with only 5 Protoss, now that the roles are reversed, wouldn't your logic declare that it is simply the "law of averages" balancing itself out?
On January 25 2014 12:03 Waise wrote: i do think terran is weak against p and maybe very very marginally weak against z right now, but the number of players in code s doesn't really mean anything. it's not that statistically outrageous for a bunch of terrans to just play poorly while the race is also slightly weak. there has to be some responsibility on the players to actually play out the games; it's not as if the distribution should be equal if terran players don't perform
In a balanced game the number of players representing each race at any level of play should be even, allowing for slight variations for the best players in the world (3-5 players at most) and the human factor throwing off a perfect equilibrium. When you have 11/16 and 11/17 advancing for Zerg and Toss respectively but only 2/15 Terran players, that is no where close to even. Not even in the same ball park. Why would only Terran players not perform while the other two races do? Especially when you're dealing with some of the best players in the world who can almost play this game in their sleep they know it so well? Is the most obvious answer not that its not that they weren't performing, but that they couldn't perform well due to playing with an underpowered race? It's a simple law of averages man.
Well seeing as how there were 20 Terrans in just 2011 with only 5 Protoss, now that the roles are reversed, wouldn't your logic declare that it is simply the "law of averages" balancing itself out?
While I don't agree with Survivor, you're discounting all the patches that nerfed Terran and buffed other races. If there were no patches, your point would hold merit.
On January 25 2014 12:03 Waise wrote: i do think terran is weak against p and maybe very very marginally weak against z right now, but the number of players in code s doesn't really mean anything. it's not that statistically outrageous for a bunch of terrans to just play poorly while the race is also slightly weak. there has to be some responsibility on the players to actually play out the games; it's not as if the distribution should be equal if terran players don't perform
In a balanced game the number of players representing each race at any level of play should be even, allowing for slight variations for the best players in the world (3-5 players at most) and the human factor throwing off a perfect equilibrium. When you have 11/16 and 11/17 advancing for Zerg and Toss respectively but only 2/15 Terran players, that is no where close to even. Not even in the same ball park. Why would only Terran players not perform while the other two races do? Especially when you're dealing with some of the best players in the world who can almost play this game in their sleep they know it so well? Is the most obvious answer not that its not that they weren't performing, but that they couldn't perform well due to playing with an underpowered race? It's a simple law of averages man.
Well seeing as how there were 20 Terrans in just 2011 with only 5 Protoss, now that the roles are reversed, wouldn't your logic declare that it is simply the "law of averages" balancing itself out?
it was 20 terrans for 1 GSL in october for 2011.
Personally, to say "now its protoss's time" like many Protoss players like to post, I wouldn't consider it actual progress when it comes to balance, just reversed.
On January 25 2014 14:56 AxiomBlurr wrote: 3) Supernova had Stats beaten but engaged horribly on Habitation Station.
How the heck did he have Stats beaten at any point of that game? He had no anti-air, no engagement could've changed that fact.
The best he could do at the point he notices the carriers is to sacrifice his ground army to kill as many bases as possible while building up anti-air back home. Its a desperation move but theres not much else you can do as a meching terran when you get caught so badly off guard with an air switch. There wasnt a single point where Supernova was ahead in that game, let alone had his opponent "beaten".
On January 25 2014 12:03 Waise wrote: i do think terran is weak against p and maybe very very marginally weak against z right now, but the number of players in code s doesn't really mean anything. it's not that statistically outrageous for a bunch of terrans to just play poorly while the race is also slightly weak. there has to be some responsibility on the players to actually play out the games; it's not as if the distribution should be equal if terran players don't perform
In a balanced game the number of players representing each race at any level of play should be even, allowing for slight variations for the best players in the world (3-5 players at most) and the human factor throwing off a perfect equilibrium. When you have 11/16 and 11/17 advancing for Zerg and Toss respectively but only 2/15 Terran players, that is no where close to even. Not even in the same ball park. Why would only Terran players not perform while the other two races do? Especially when you're dealing with some of the best players in the world who can almost play this game in their sleep they know it so well? Is the most obvious answer not that its not that they weren't performing, but that they couldn't perform well due to playing with an underpowered race? It's a simple law of averages man.
Well seeing as how there were 20 Terrans in just 2011 with only 5 Protoss, now that the roles are reversed, wouldn't your logic declare that it is simply the "law of averages" balancing itself out?
it was 20 terrans for 1 GSL in october for 2011.
Personally, to say "now its protoss's time" like many Protoss players like to post, I wouldn't consider it actual progress when it comes to balance, just reversed.
Yeah, even as a Protoss player I would be happy with seeing some Terran buffs to help them out.
A sick part of me wants all three terrans to get knocked out in the Ro32, just for history's sake. I'm a little bit twisted in that I enjoy watching masses of people complaining about balance. Maybe I need help =(
Surprised that GOM hasnt announced anything related to the last spot, considering theres only 5 days until the lunar new year and Code S starts right after that
On January 25 2014 16:34 LongShot27 wrote: I like how everyone is talking about how OP Protoss is when Zerg has 13 spots....
That's because ZvP and ZvT have pretty solid winrates but nothing absolutely ridiculous like the 80%ish winrate in PvT.
Also the existence of Daedalus point warps the winrates towards zerg when they pick it against every terran or protoss. Its a horrible map that should have never been introduced but it doesnt translate into zerg being OP. The map needs to be removed ASAP or they need to introduce map vetos.
On January 25 2014 16:34 LongShot27 wrote: I like how everyone is talking about how OP Protoss is when Zerg has 13 spots....
That's because ZvP and ZvT have pretty solid winrates but nothing absolutely ridiculous like the 80%ish winrate in PvT.
Also the existence of Daedalus point warps the winrates towards zerg when they pick it against every terran or protoss. Its a horrible map that should have never been introduced but it doesnt translate into zerg being OP. The map needs to be removed ASAP or they need to introduce map vetos.
See, this might actually be a good argument except everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that the current map pool also favors Protoss. Yeonsu is great for all-ins (blink especially) against terran, and all-ins against zerg are quite good on this map as well, Polar Night another blink favored map, and Heavy Rain another blink favored map. Some consider Alterzirim Stronghold another Protoss favored map because of the easily controlled 3 bases. So that's 4 maps out of the entire map pool that are favored for Protoss, so you would expect certain results to be skewed when looking at it essentially just by the map pool. But you also take into account that Terran's that were expected to qualify but played very underwhelming (Innovation, Flash, Ryung, even Dream and Fantasy) and other Terran's that just looked outclassed (TheBest, SkyHigh). And considering 2 Terran's in the last group with no Protoss failed to qualify, and it's not like they were up against superstar level Zerg players, either.
There are a lot of factors playing into the fact that so few Terran qualified for Code S, and putting the blame solely on "Protoss OP" is just silly and ignores the facts. The winrate for Code A in TvP is pretty one-sided, but it was the reverse for Proleague just last weekend.
But people are going to complain no matter what, so really I don't even know why I bother with this shit. It's just really getting super annoying listening to all these Terran players bitch about this crap in every single thread.
On January 25 2014 12:03 Waise wrote: i do think terran is weak against p and maybe very very marginally weak against z right now, but the number of players in code s doesn't really mean anything. it's not that statistically outrageous for a bunch of terrans to just play poorly while the race is also slightly weak. there has to be some responsibility on the players to actually play out the games; it's not as if the distribution should be equal if terran players don't perform
In a balanced game the number of players representing each race at any level of play should be even, allowing for slight variations for the best players in the world (3-5 players at most) and the human factor throwing off a perfect equilibrium. When you have 11/16 and 11/17 advancing for Zerg and Toss respectively but only 2/15 Terran players, that is no where close to even. Not even in the same ball park. Why would only Terran players not perform while the other two races do? Especially when you're dealing with some of the best players in the world who can almost play this game in their sleep they know it so well? Is the most obvious answer not that its not that they weren't performing, but that they couldn't perform well due to playing with an underpowered race? It's a simple law of averages man.
Well seeing as how there were 20 Terrans in just 2011 with only 5 Protoss, now that the roles are reversed, wouldn't your logic declare that it is simply the "law of averages" balancing itself out?
it was 20 terrans for 1 GSL in october for 2011.
Personally, to say "now its protoss's time" like many Protoss players like to post, I wouldn't consider it actual progress when it comes to balance, just reversed.
Lol honestly you guys think I was being serious? Thank you for proving my point about how retarded his argument was.
And addressing your statement about how it was "1 GSL in October 2011", we can say the same about how "this is 1 GSL in January 2014". So if that is the basis of your reasoning about why this is just the end of the world, I would say recent history shows that things work out in the end. The game didn't die when there were 20 Terran? So suggesting it will now is just ridiculous. They are obviously looking at the matchup in the recent balance test maps, so I would assume that nerfs/buffs are coming soon. So i'll continue to enjoy this short time where Terran's don't just dominate every tournament around the world like they have been doing since the beginning of Starcraft time.
Its funny how Terrans used to "be just better" then all the protoss and zerg. Now looking back we all realize/knew that it was imbalanced. Now all the Protoss and Zerg are "just better" then the Terrans. Now some of us know that its imbalanced and others will look back and realize that it was.
Whether Protoss needs a nerf or Terran needs a buff in general I'm not 100% on right now.
Damn, and I throw 20$ out of the window to subscribe this shitty season.
Please Gom give the Spot to TY. He maybe doesn't deserved it, but he seems to be the only one able to win against Z or P. Now Gom should care only about the viewers experience...
even though i have a personal hatred for the terran race, it's going to be kind of dry when you look at possible matchups. Hopefully a superstar terran can get jjakji's spot and make it far.
On January 25 2014 18:05 seak99 wrote: Its funny how Terrans used to "be just better" then all the protoss and zerg. Now looking back we all realize/knew that it was imbalanced. Now all the Protoss and Zerg are "just better" then the Terrans. Now some of us know that its imbalanced and others will look back and realize that it was.
Whether Protoss needs a nerf or Terran needs a buff in general I'm not 100% on right now.
Its not that terran can't win against protoss .. Terran can win in a tvp but its just that it takes a lot more effort for them to win against a protoss than a protoss winning against a terran. In short even the best protoss can lose against a best terran. Its just that a best terran can also easily lose to a protoss that is not on the same level with the the best protoss. At least that how i see it.
oh man i was actually looking forward for this GSL since its a new year but after seeing the participant list i don't feel the same anymore. It's gonna be so boring that even Life being one of the participants in won't even matter.
There are meta game shifts constantly occurring in this game, Its not that Z and P are better then T, its just that at the moment they have solved the puzzle and now T needs time to adjust.
On January 25 2014 18:43 Obender99 wrote: My opinion re: race balance is this
There are meta game shifts constantly occurring in this game, Its not that Z and P are better then T, its just that at the moment they have solved the puzzle and now T needs time to adjust.
I hope you are right that this is just a metagame thing. Because at this rate as much as i love sc2 if this continues starbow may have more viewers and players than sc2 later this year and hell even broodwar will be fully revived at this rate. Not that its a bad thing for starbow or BW to prosper.
This is well done, and may I request in about 2 GSL seasons when it flips back to having 15 terrans in Code S that you show it with updated data to show that times change, and do so rapidly
On January 25 2014 18:43 Obender99 wrote: My opinion re: race balance is this
There are meta game shifts constantly occurring in this game, Its not that Z and P are better then T, its just that at the moment they have solved the puzzle and now T needs time to adjust.
there is no counterplay to a good blink player on a blink friendly map that puts you ahead. You're at best even, at worst your dead. And in the current map pool almost every map is blink friendly.
On January 25 2014 18:43 Obender99 wrote: My opinion re: race balance is this
There are meta game shifts constantly occurring in this game, Its not that Z and P are better then T, its just that at the moment they have solved the puzzle and now T needs time to adjust.
there is no counterplay to a good blink player on a blink friendly map that puts you ahead. You're at best even, at worst your dead. And in the current map pool almost every map is blink friendly.
Build bunkers and then actually fill them, which for some reason every terran in every WCS region isn't doing, they build the bunkers, leave them empty and then GG
On January 25 2014 18:43 Obender99 wrote: My opinion re: race balance is this
There are meta game shifts constantly occurring in this game, Its not that Z and P are better then T, its just that at the moment they have solved the puzzle and now T needs time to adjust.
there is no counterplay to a good blink player on a blink friendly map that puts you ahead. You're at best even, at worst your dead. And in the current map pool almost every map is blink friendly.
Build bunkers and then actually fill them, which for some reason every terran in every WCS region isn't doing, they build the bunkers, leave them empty and then GG
you're joking right? The problem isn't defending the blink all in is that if the P doesn't commit he gets ahead on upg/eco 5min later and you can't punish his 3rd on the current map pool. Inno vs herO on Frost ie. + if you got 8pop on your ramp on yeonsu ie you die if the P blinks in your main and engages you with a time warp.
ppl not playing the game and making stupid comments as to be the most painful thing on TL gosh
On January 25 2014 18:43 Obender99 wrote: My opinion re: race balance is this
There are meta game shifts constantly occurring in this game, Its not that Z and P are better then T, its just that at the moment they have solved the puzzle and now T needs time to adjust.
there is no counterplay to a good blink player on a blink friendly map that puts you ahead. You're at best even, at worst your dead. And in the current map pool almost every map is blink friendly.
Build bunkers and then actually fill them, which for some reason every terran in every WCS region isn't doing, they build the bunkers, leave them empty and then GG
you're joking right? The problem isn't defending the blink all in is that if the P doesn't commit he gets ahead on upg/eco 5min later and you can't punish his 3rd on the current map pool. Inno vs herO on Frost ie. + if you got 8pop on your ramp on yeonsu ie you die if the P blinks in your main and engages you with a time warp.
ppl not playing the game and making stupid comments as to be the most painful thing on TL gosh
I agree that the current map pool is not balanced. This will change soon enough.
On January 25 2014 18:43 Obender99 wrote: My opinion re: race balance is this
There are meta game shifts constantly occurring in this game, Its not that Z and P are better then T, its just that at the moment they have solved the puzzle and now T needs time to adjust.
there is no counterplay to a good blink player on a blink friendly map that puts you ahead. You're at best even, at worst your dead. And in the current map pool almost every map is blink friendly.
Build bunkers and then actually fill them, which for some reason every terran in every WCS region isn't doing, they build the bunkers, leave them empty and then GG
you're joking right? The problem isn't defending the blink all in is that if the P doesn't commit he gets ahead on upg/eco 5min later and you can't punish his 3rd on the current map pool. Inno vs herO on Frost ie. + if you got 8pop on your ramp on yeonsu ie you die if the P blinks in your main and engages you with a time warp.
ppl not playing the game and making stupid comments as to be the most painful thing on TL gosh
I agree that the current map pool is not balanced. This will change soon enough.
considering blizzard stance and the map they introduced (heavy rain is the best blink map ever made, daedalus is an auto win for Z) i doubt it'll change that much; they're 100% clueless about maps.
On January 25 2014 18:43 Obender99 wrote: My opinion re: race balance is this
There are meta game shifts constantly occurring in this game, Its not that Z and P are better then T, its just that at the moment they have solved the puzzle and now T needs time to adjust.
there is no counterplay to a good blink player on a blink friendly map that puts you ahead. You're at best even, at worst your dead. And in the current map pool almost every map is blink friendly.
Build bunkers and then actually fill them, which for some reason every terran in every WCS region isn't doing, they build the bunkers, leave them empty and then GG
you're joking right? The problem isn't defending the blink all in is that if the P doesn't commit he gets ahead on upg/eco 5min later and you can't punish his 3rd on the current map pool. Inno vs herO on Frost ie. + if you got 8pop on your ramp on yeonsu ie you die if the P blinks in your main and engages you with a time warp.
ppl not playing the game and making stupid comments as to be the most painful thing on TL gosh
I agree that the current map pool is not balanced. This will change soon enough.
considering blizzard stance and the map they introduced (heavy rain is the best blink map ever made, daedalus is an auto win for Z) i doubt it'll change that much; they're 100% clueless about maps.
I don't think that is fair, Blizzard is very interested in making us all happy so we keep attracting new players to the game and selling their product. Sure, they stumble at times - but in the long run they have a lot of money riding on everything working out.
On January 25 2014 18:43 Obender99 wrote: My opinion re: race balance is this
There are meta game shifts constantly occurring in this game, Its not that Z and P are better then T, its just that at the moment they have solved the puzzle and now T needs time to adjust.
there is no counterplay to a good blink player on a blink friendly map that puts you ahead. You're at best even, at worst your dead. And in the current map pool almost every map is blink friendly.
Build bunkers and then actually fill them, which for some reason every terran in every WCS region isn't doing, they build the bunkers, leave them empty and then GG
you're joking right? The problem isn't defending the blink all in is that if the P doesn't commit he gets ahead on upg/eco 5min later and you can't punish his 3rd on the current map pool. Inno vs herO on Frost ie. + if you got 8pop on your ramp on yeonsu ie you die if the P blinks in your main and engages you with a time warp.
ppl not playing the game and making stupid comments as to be the most painful thing on TL gosh
I agree that the current map pool is not balanced. This will change soon enough.
considering blizzard stance and the map they introduced (heavy rain is the best blink map ever made, daedalus is an auto win for Z) i doubt it'll change that much; they're 100% clueless about maps.
I don't think that is fair, Blizzard is very interested in making us all happy so we keep attracting new players to the game and selling their product.
they're just blind about maps, i didn't say they select/make intentionnal bad maps.
On January 25 2014 18:43 Obender99 wrote: My opinion re: race balance is this
There are meta game shifts constantly occurring in this game, Its not that Z and P are better then T, its just that at the moment they have solved the puzzle and now T needs time to adjust.
there is no counterplay to a good blink player on a blink friendly map that puts you ahead. You're at best even, at worst your dead. And in the current map pool almost every map is blink friendly.
Build bunkers and then actually fill them, which for some reason every terran in every WCS region isn't doing, they build the bunkers, leave them empty and then GG
you're joking right? The problem isn't defending the blink all in is that if the P doesn't commit he gets ahead on upg/eco 5min later and you can't punish his 3rd on the current map pool. Inno vs herO on Frost ie. + if you got 8pop on your ramp on yeonsu ie you die if the P blinks in your main and engages you with a time warp.
ppl not playing the game and making stupid comments as to be the most painful thing on TL gosh
I agree that the current map pool is not balanced. This will change soon enough.
considering blizzard stance and the map they introduced (heavy rain is the best blink map ever made, daedalus is an auto win for Z) i doubt it'll change that much; they're 100% clueless about maps.
I don't think that is fair, Blizzard is very interested in making us all happy so we keep attracting new players to the game and selling their product.
they're just blind about maps, i didn't say they select/make intentionnal bad maps.
If this trend continues, I predict a plethora of Terran favored maps in the next pool.
On January 25 2014 18:43 Obender99 wrote: My opinion re: race balance is this
There are meta game shifts constantly occurring in this game, Its not that Z and P are better then T, its just that at the moment they have solved the puzzle and now T needs time to adjust.
there is no counterplay to a good blink player on a blink friendly map that puts you ahead. You're at best even, at worst your dead. And in the current map pool almost every map is blink friendly.
Build bunkers and then actually fill them, which for some reason every terran in every WCS region isn't doing, they build the bunkers, leave them empty and then GG
you're joking right? The problem isn't defending the blink all in is that if the P doesn't commit he gets ahead on upg/eco 5min later and you can't punish his 3rd on the current map pool. Inno vs herO on Frost ie. + if you got 8pop on your ramp on yeonsu ie you die if the P blinks in your main and engages you with a time warp.
ppl not playing the game and making stupid comments as to be the most painful thing on TL gosh
I agree that the current map pool is not balanced. This will change soon enough.
considering blizzard stance and the map they introduced (heavy rain is the best blink map ever made, daedalus is an auto win for Z) i doubt it'll change that much; they're 100% clueless about maps.
I don't think that is fair, Blizzard is very interested in making us all happy so we keep attracting new players to the game and selling their product.
they're just blind about maps, i didn't say they select/make intentionnal bad maps.
If this trend continues, I predict a plethora of Terran favored maps in the next pool.
Exactly what is a Terran Favored map? In my opinion it is a map that:
1) allows for nigh 360 degree drops on the opponents main 2) is bad for blink all ins/pressure. 3) has a relatively easy wallable natural. 4) has an easily defendable 3rd. 5) has gold minerals?
Can someone please add to this list? I don't actually know all the parameters for a good Terran map - not sure about number 5??
On January 25 2014 18:43 Obender99 wrote: My opinion re: race balance is this
There are meta game shifts constantly occurring in this game, Its not that Z and P are better then T, its just that at the moment they have solved the puzzle and now T needs time to adjust.
there is no counterplay to a good blink player on a blink friendly map that puts you ahead. You're at best even, at worst your dead. And in the current map pool almost every map is blink friendly.
Build bunkers and then actually fill them, which for some reason every terran in every WCS region isn't doing, they build the bunkers, leave them empty and then GG
you're joking right? The problem isn't defending the blink all in is that if the P doesn't commit he gets ahead on upg/eco 5min later and you can't punish his 3rd on the current map pool. Inno vs herO on Frost ie. + if you got 8pop on your ramp on yeonsu ie you die if the P blinks in your main and engages you with a time warp.
ppl not playing the game and making stupid comments as to be the most painful thing on TL gosh
I agree that the current map pool is not balanced. This will change soon enough.
considering blizzard stance and the map they introduced (heavy rain is the best blink map ever made, daedalus is an auto win for Z) i doubt it'll change that much; they're 100% clueless about maps.
I don't think that is fair, Blizzard is very interested in making us all happy so we keep attracting new players to the game and selling their product.
they're just blind about maps, i didn't say they select/make intentionnal bad maps.
If this trend continues, I predict a plethora of Terran favored maps in the next pool.
Exactly what is a Terran Favored map? In my opinion it is a map that:
1) allows for nigh 360 degree drops on the opponents main 2) is bad for blink all ins/pressure. 3) has a relatively easy wallable natural. 4) has an easily defendable 3rd. 5) has gold minerals?
Can someone please add to this list? I don't actually know all the parameters for a good Terran map - not sure about number 5??
4 isn't good, if the 3rd is hard to take hellion/banshee play fucks up Z and it's bad for P. main-nat ramp away from nat entrance is a really big point too. You need a good balance between chokes and openess in order to fight both Z/P. 5 i dunno now.
This is probably the least excited I've ever been about GSL. Endless waves of swarm host turtle games, immortal all ins and PvP, with nary a TvT or ZvT in sight. Barf.
On January 25 2014 20:47 burzumbu wrote: it is scary that some people ignoring what is PvT today.. it is more scary than PvT itself
i'm glad i did not buy subscription for code s, i would hate myself
You lucky people. I was so hyped for the new WCS season that I got my ticket early. Now I have to come in terms with the fact that this season will be lackluster for me. It´s a shame that half of the match-ups are almost gone this season.
On January 25 2014 12:03 Waise wrote: i do think terran is weak against p and maybe very very marginally weak against z right now, but the number of players in code s doesn't really mean anything. it's not that statistically outrageous for a bunch of terrans to just play poorly while the race is also slightly weak. there has to be some responsibility on the players to actually play out the games; it's not as if the distribution should be equal if terran players don't perform
In a balanced game the number of players representing each race at any level of play should be even, allowing for slight variations for the best players in the world (3-5 players at most) and the human factor throwing off a perfect equilibrium. When you have 11/16 and 11/17 advancing for Zerg and Toss respectively but only 2/15 Terran players, that is no where close to even. Not even in the same ball park. Why would only Terran players not perform while the other two races do? Especially when you're dealing with some of the best players in the world who can almost play this game in their sleep they know it so well? Is the most obvious answer not that its not that they weren't performing, but that they couldn't perform well due to playing with an underpowered race? It's a simple law of averages man.
Well seeing as how there were 20 Terrans in just 2011 with only 5 Protoss, now that the roles are reversed, wouldn't your logic declare that it is simply the "law of averages" balancing itself out?
it was 20 terrans for 1 GSL in october for 2011.
Personally, to say "now its protoss's time" like many Protoss players like to post, I wouldn't consider it actual progress when it comes to balance, just reversed.
Lol honestly you guys think I was being serious? Thank you for proving my point about how retarded his argument was.
And addressing your statement about how it was "1 GSL in October 2011", we can say the same about how "this is 1 GSL in January 2014". So if that is the basis of your reasoning about why this is just the end of the world, I would say recent history shows that things work out in the end. The game didn't die when there were 20 Terran? So suggesting it will now is just ridiculous. They are obviously looking at the matchup in the recent balance test maps, so I would assume that nerfs/buffs are coming soon. So i'll continue to enjoy this short time where Terran's don't just dominate every tournament around the world like they have been doing since the beginning of Starcraft time.
If you think my argument was retarded, you're as dumb and emotional as axiomblurr..
I said if the game was balanced it there would be an even distribution of races in any given tournament with players of even skill. I never said there has been a perfectly balanced game, or that it is even possible. But it is certainly possible to get it closer to ever than having 15 Toss, 13 Zerg, and 3 Terran. It is obviously not a problem of all the Terrans performing bad at the same time while the players from the other races play fine (why does that make any sense to people?).
On January 25 2014 12:03 Waise wrote: i do think terran is weak against p and maybe very very marginally weak against z right now, but the number of players in code s doesn't really mean anything. it's not that statistically outrageous for a bunch of terrans to just play poorly while the race is also slightly weak. there has to be some responsibility on the players to actually play out the games; it's not as if the distribution should be equal if terran players don't perform
In a balanced game the number of players representing each race at any level of play should be even, allowing for slight variations for the best players in the world (3-5 players at most) and the human factor throwing off a perfect equilibrium. When you have 11/16 and 11/17 advancing for Zerg and Toss respectively but only 2/15 Terran players, that is no where close to even. Not even in the same ball park. Why would only Terran players not perform while the other two races do? Especially when you're dealing with some of the best players in the world who can almost play this game in their sleep they know it so well? Is the most obvious answer not that its not that they weren't performing, but that they couldn't perform well due to playing with an underpowered race? It's a simple law of averages man.
Well seeing as how there were 20 Terrans in just 2011 with only 5 Protoss, now that the roles are reversed, wouldn't your logic declare that it is simply the "law of averages" balancing itself out?
it was 20 terrans for 1 GSL in october for 2011.
Personally, to say "now its protoss's time" like many Protoss players like to post, I wouldn't consider it actual progress when it comes to balance, just reversed.
Lol honestly you guys think I was being serious? Thank you for proving my point about how retarded his argument was.
And addressing your statement about how it was "1 GSL in October 2011", we can say the same about how "this is 1 GSL in January 2014". So if that is the basis of your reasoning about why this is just the end of the world, I would say recent history shows that things work out in the end. The game didn't die when there were 20 Terran? So suggesting it will now is just ridiculous. They are obviously looking at the matchup in the recent balance test maps, so I would assume that nerfs/buffs are coming soon. So i'll continue to enjoy this short time where Terran's don't just dominate every tournament around the world like they have been doing since the beginning of Starcraft time.
Problem is the 1 GSL now lasts 3 months compare to 1 month for the 2011 GSLs. So the balance/meta is magnified.
On January 24 2014 23:19 TurboMaN wrote: If a Terran wins, its not a balance issue any more. Only skill will advance in this season's Code S.
The distribution in code S does not accurately reflect balance and does not necessarily imply that terran is weak: If you look at the list of really high-caliber players for each race, only a couple of zergs (JD, Hyun) and tosses (Hero, MC) left Korea, while MOST of the best Terrans left (Taeja, MMA, Polt, Bomber, JJakji, mvp, ForGG). Had more of these players stayed in Korea the distribution would be considerably better.
Having said that, from my personal experience on the ladder (I'm a master zerg on EU) I do think toss is just slightly overpowered, but terran is by far not as weak as code S suggests (look at the warer going on right now -- the final four has 2 terrans and 2 tosses, Life and JD got crushed)
Anyone who says Toss is not op is delusional,it became so obvious.
Just look at names of Protoss players who got in Code S and their career achievements. Almost half of them,7 to be precise,didnt won squat or have ever played Code S.Dont get me wrong,im not saying that some of them didnt excel in their play.But if you compare them to Zerg players who qualified,just 5 out 13 with no achievements. And then take a look at Terran players not qualified for Code S.Only 3 out of 13 have never played in Code S,and most of them are quite big names in SC2.
The numbers are clear: Toss Code A 17 -> Code S 11 Zerg Code A 16 -> Code S 11 Terran Code A 15 -> Code S 2
It remains to be seen how Toss players will do in Code S,especially those 7 newcomers. My guess they will get stomped by established Toss and Zerg players (and Maru,hopefully he will get 3 toss in hes group lolz).
The worst thing about this situation is that it will hurt SC2 as a game.No Terran player will get motivated to get on the ladder and play after watching only toss and zerg for 3 months.Its bad enough one loose almost every 3rd game on ladder.
PS Talking about what was in that or that season is stupid and pointless.There was never a season with only 3 representatives of one race.
On January 24 2014 23:19 TurboMaN wrote: If a Terran wins, its not a balance issue any more. Only skill will advance in this season's Code S.
The distribution in code S does not accurately reflect balance and does not necessarily imply that terran is weak: If you look at the list of really high-caliber players for each race, only a couple of zergs (JD, Hyun) and tosses (Hero, MC) left Korea, while MOST of the best Terrans left (Taeja, MMA, Polt, Bomber, JJakji, mvp, ForGG). Had more of these players stayed in Korea the distribution would be considerably better.
Having said that, from my personal experience on the ladder (I'm a master zerg on EU) I do think toss is just slightly overpowered, but terran is by far not as weak as code S suggests (look at the warer going on right now -- the final four has 2 terrans and 2 tosses, Life and JD got crushed)
scrubs like flash, innovation or TY got protossed. unknown randoms like Keen, Gumiho or Hack got protossed too. in the meanwhile gosu like Ruin, Panic or Myungisk advanced... did you watch code A?
and you advice to watch a meaningless online invitational to compare the results?
by far the worst thing about this situation is that we have to deal with it for a full 3 months. thats one fourth or even one third of 2014's GSL that is mostly wasted in my eyes.
even if better maps are introduced or balance patches come out soon™, it will still take months until the GSL becomes watchable again.
a BIG part of it is so many maps where blink can be abused......1st step is add in some dam maps on ladder that aren't so strong 4 blink
2 base blink is BS and every1 knows it
oracle is a JOKE almost impossible to lose this unit now with its acceleration and speed
those 2 things puts toss so far ahead in the early game (even the fact that they exist u have to take them into consideration for your build or u auto-lose)
innovation (1 of my favorite players) losing 2 blink twice is a DISGRACE
I wonder how many more Protoss would be in Code S if Daedelus wasn't in the map pool.Off the top of my head I know Seed would have most likely been in. He lost twice to zergs in the deciding game on that map.
On January 24 2014 23:19 TurboMaN wrote: If a Terran wins, its not a balance issue any more. Only skill will advance in this season's Code S.
The distribution in code S does not accurately reflect balance and does not necessarily imply that terran is weak: If you look at the list of really high-caliber players for each race, only a couple of zergs (JD, Hyun) and tosses (Hero, MC) left Korea, while MOST of the best Terrans left (Taeja, MMA, Polt, Bomber, JJakji, mvp, ForGG). Had more of these players stayed in Korea the distribution would be considerably better.
Having said that, from my personal experience on the ladder (I'm a master zerg on EU) I do think toss is just slightly overpowered, but terran is by far not as weak as code S suggests (look at the warer going on right now -- the final four has 2 terrans and 2 tosses, Life and JD got crushed)
Completely Agree with you sir...
well constructed post. Although Warer is too small a sample size,,,when taken with proleague...I think your comments are logical and reasonable...
Why did TY not compete in Code A? Man that dude has serious skills...
On January 24 2014 23:19 TurboMaN wrote: If a Terran wins, its not a balance issue any more. Only skill will advance in this season's Code S.
The distribution in code S does not accurately reflect balance and does not necessarily imply that terran is weak: If you look at the list of really high-caliber players for each race, only a couple of zergs (JD, Hyun) and tosses (Hero, MC) left Korea, while MOST of the best Terrans left (Taeja, MMA, Polt, Bomber, JJakji, mvp, ForGG). Had more of these players stayed in Korea the distribution would be considerably better.
Having said that, from my personal experience on the ladder (I'm a master zerg on EU) I do think toss is just slightly overpowered, but terran is by far not as weak as code S suggests (look at the warer going on right now -- the final four has 2 terrans and 2 tosses, Life and JD got crushed)
Completely Agree with you sir...
well constructed post. Although Warer is too small a sample size,,,when taken with proleague...I think your comments are logical and reasonable...
Why did TY not compete in Code A? Man that dude has serious skills...
TY got bitch slapped in the Code A quals by Yonghwa. So he did compete.
On January 26 2014 07:03 JIJI_ wrote: a BIG part of it is so many maps where blink can be abused......1st step is add in some dam maps on ladder that aren't so strong 4 blink
2 base blink is BS and every1 knows it
oracle is a JOKE almost impossible to lose this unit now with its acceleration and speed
those 2 things puts toss so far ahead in the early game (even the fact that they exist u have to take them into consideration for your build or u auto-lose)
innovation (1 of my favorite players) losing 2 blink twice is a DISGRACE
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
okay, so you went off the handle there friend.
However, to be fair you do have a point about blink all ins, currently terran still hasnt figured out how to deal with it well or how to distinguish an all in from a pressure into third base (for 2 base variants).
While the map pool does make the blink more viable I am not sure if its entirely to blame. I mean once terrans figure out how to deal with the blink builds reliably or some changes come to early protoss vision we will see it drop off. Though some maps really do have too much area to manage in terms of blinkable space which only makes it worse.
if the result of a small group shows how balanced the races are, what, if a terran wins Code S then? wouldn't that prove: terran is OP?
i am only a observer of pro games, tons of pro games. i don't play anymore. so, i have no ladder frustration or something like that. terran is not too weak in my opinion. and, i got to be careful what i am saying now.
On January 24 2014 23:19 TurboMaN wrote: If a Terran wins, its not a balance issue any more. Only skill will advance in this season's Code S.
The distribution in code S does not accurately reflect balance and does not necessarily imply that terran is weak: If you look at the list of really high-caliber players for each race, only a couple of zergs (JD, Hyun) and tosses (Hero, MC) left Korea, while MOST of the best Terrans left (Taeja, MMA, Polt, Bomber, JJakji, mvp, ForGG). Had more of these players stayed in Korea the distribution would be considerably better.
Having said that, from my personal experience on the ladder (I'm a master zerg on EU) I do think toss is just slightly overpowered, but terran is by far not as weak as code S suggests (look at the warer going on right now -- the final four has 2 terrans and 2 tosses, Life and JD got crushed)
Sure it looks like that if you just take a brief glance. But let's take a closer look. Among the Terans that have left, I can only see two for sure that could have made it to Code S. Jjakji and Taeja.
Polt is a major question mark as his quality of play depends on his condition.
But for the rest? Mvp hasn't been on that level to compete with Code S Protoss in a long time (He lost to both hero and San in IEM Singapore in one-sided beatdowns.)
Bomber? He did exceptional against Chinese protoss but against Korean Toss has lost to sOs, Rain, MC, hero, Parting, Trap. We have to go back to GSTL last year to see any wins against Toss where he beat Tassadar and Alicia.
MMA? He beat Crank and Alicia at ATC, but lost to three Chinese Toss in ECL. He is a good player, but against the Toss that are currently fielded, I can't see him qualifying unless he gets a lucky group like Bbyong.
ForGG? Same case as Bomber. Does exceptional against Foreign Tosses, but loses to the top tier Code S tosses like sOs and Squirtle. Even if we disregard that, his TvZ is by far his worst and there is no way he could have made it past any of the zergs in Code S.
If you're going to make this argument, you should research it the entire way,.
On January 24 2014 23:19 TurboMaN wrote: If a Terran wins, its not a balance issue any more. Only skill will advance in this season's Code S.
The distribution in code S does not accurately reflect balance and does not necessarily imply that terran is weak: If you look at the list of really high-caliber players for each race, only a couple of zergs (JD, Hyun) and tosses (Hero, MC) left Korea, while MOST of the best Terrans left (Taeja, MMA, Polt, Bomber, JJakji, mvp, ForGG). Had more of these players stayed in Korea the distribution would be considerably better.
Having said that, from my personal experience on the ladder (I'm a master zerg on EU) I do think toss is just slightly overpowered, but terran is by far not as weak as code S suggests (look at the warer going on right now -- the final four has 2 terrans and 2 tosses, Life and JD got crushed)
Sure it looks like that if you just take a brief glance. But let's take a closer look. Among the Terans that have left, I can only see two for sure that could have made it to Code S. Jjakji and Taeja.
Polt is a major question mark as his quality of play depends on his condition.
But for the rest? Mvp hasn't been on that level to compete with Code S Protoss in a long time (He lost to both hero and San in IEM Singapore in one-sided beatdowns.)
Bomber? He did exceptional against Chinese protoss but against Korean Toss has lost to sOs, Rain, MC, hero, Parting, Trap. We have to go back to GSTL last year to see any wins against Toss where he beat Tassadar and Alicia.
MMA? He beat Crank and Alicia at ATC, but lost to three Chinese Toss in ECL. He is a good player, but against the Toss that are currently fielded, I can't see him qualifying unless he gets a lucky group like Bbyong.
ForGG? Same case as Bomber. Does exceptional against Foreign Tosses, but loses to the top tier Code S tosses like sOs and Squirtle. Even if we disregard that, his TvZ is by far his worst and there is no way he could have made it past any of the zergs in Code S.
If you're going to make this argument, you should research it the entire way,.
Agreed. A lot of Protoss are just throwing names out there without looking at their recent results. Also, there are a lot of Korean Protoss playing in NA/EU as well with HerO, MC, San, First, Alicia, Crank, etc. although some of them aren't 'big name' like the Terrans, if you look at recent results, they match up quite well.
For the Terrans on list
Jjakji - had code S spot taeja - very likely Bomber, Polt - possibly Mma, Mvp, ForGG- probably not
But if we had the Ps there, would Bbyong/Supernova had gotten through? So I think we are still looking at 5-6 Terrans max.
I wont say terran is weak, I play terran myself... but the early game options and risks protoss does and gets away with it, is unfair. if your going to commit to an all in or any retarded build, you have to lose cuz you invested heavily into that strategy. I think thats fair and it doesnt take great skill to pull of cheesy/gimicky all ins if you play protoss cuz its just a build order win. I was thinking that if both upgrades at either engineering bay and armory can be accessible for hellbats would encourage more hellbat play due to that flexibility?? and i have a strong feeling gomtv is going to lose alot of viewers this season in code s cuz quite frankly not alot of ppl want to watch P V P and Z V Z cuz they are so boring to watch.
On January 26 2014 10:56 ypslala wrote: if the result of a small group shows how balanced the races are, what, if a terran wins Code S then? wouldn't that prove: terran is OP?
i am only a observer of pro games, tons of pro games. i don't play anymore. so, i have no ladder frustration or something like that. terran is not too weak in my opinion. and, i got to be careful what i am saying now.
well we had that situation before. Tons of Terrans in CodeS many said Terran is OP, and a few Zergs battled their way through the masses and won it all. Which people didn't care about. It is just a ton of Protoss players that have alot of different styles, so preparing for them is hard. And if a Terran wins it only means that he had probably some sort of enlightenment against Protoss or that no one really trained XvT.
On January 26 2014 05:23 Black Gun wrote: by far the worst thing about this situation is that we have to deal with it for a full 3 months. thats one fourth or even one third of 2014's GSL that is mostly wasted in my eyes.
even if better maps are introduced or balance patches come out soon™, it will still take months until the GSL becomes watchable again.
#MaruFighting
I would not count on much better Terran representation in next GSL. It's usually slow process.
On January 26 2014 10:56 ypslala wrote: if the result of a small group shows how balanced the races are, what, if a terran wins Code S then? wouldn't that prove: terran is OP?
i am only a observer of pro games, tons of pro games. i don't play anymore. so, i have no ladder frustration or something like that. terran is not too weak in my opinion. and, i got to be careful what i am saying now.
well we had that situation before. Tons of Terrans in CodeS many said Terran is OP, and a few Zergs battled their way through the masses and won it all. Which people didn't care about. It is just a ton of Protoss players that have alot of different styles, so preparing for them is hard. And if a Terran wins it only means that he had probably some sort of enlightenment against Protoss or that no one really trained XvT.
My bet is on a Zerg this season though.
battled through with overlord speed buff, queen range buff and stim+bunk+snipe nerfs
On January 26 2014 10:56 ypslala wrote: if the result of a small group shows how balanced the races are, what, if a terran wins Code S then? wouldn't that prove: terran is OP?
i am only a observer of pro games, tons of pro games. i don't play anymore. so, i have no ladder frustration or something like that. terran is not too weak in my opinion. and, i got to be careful what i am saying now.
well we had that situation before. Tons of Terrans in CodeS many said Terran is OP, and a few Zergs battled their way through the masses and won it all. Which people didn't care about. It is just a ton of Protoss players that have alot of different styles, so preparing for them is hard. And if a Terran wins it only means that he had probably some sort of enlightenment against Protoss or that no one really trained XvT.
My bet is on a Zerg this season though.
battled through with overlord speed buff, queen range buff and stim+bunker+snipe nerfs
On January 26 2014 05:23 Black Gun wrote: by far the worst thing about this situation is that we have to deal with it for a full 3 months. thats one fourth or even one third of 2014's GSL that is mostly wasted in my eyes.
even if better maps are introduced or balance patches come out soon™, it will still take months until the GSL becomes watchable again.
#MaruFighting
I would not count on much better Terran representation in next GSL. It's usually slow process.
well, just getting in 3 more terrans out of 32 spots vacant during code A would already double the terran representation and presence in code S. something like that should be doable....
ahah called it said they should do this everyone here already in code and one bo3 win to get into code s figured they do it now who to root for coca, gumiho, terrans in general, sleep good to but plz no more toss sorry stork
also wish they had dream vs stork and coca vs hack or something atleast giving terran a better chance
I think GuMiHo, Hack and Super/Vampire are the best chances, really hoping for GuMiHo. Really hoping for a Terran too though, not just for any balance reasons but because I enjoy watching all of the Terran matchups a lot more than ZvZ / PvP / ZvP. It will be a very sad gsl for me if these are the dominant matchups.
Going off how they looked in Code A, I think the three that are the most likely are BrAvO, Cure and ParalyzE. They're the ones who stick out to me as having played really well despite not making it.
If not them I'd prefer GuMiho for the NesTea award or Hack just because I think he's a strong player and can't imagine how silly he feels giving up a guaranteed spot in WCS AM Premier to just be stuck in Code B instead.
On January 26 2014 10:56 ypslala wrote: if the result of a small group shows how balanced the races are, what, if a terran wins Code S then? wouldn't that prove: terran is OP?
i am only a observer of pro games, tons of pro games. i don't play anymore. so, i have no ladder frustration or something like that. terran is not too weak in my opinion. and, i got to be careful what i am saying now.
well we had that situation before. Tons of Terrans in CodeS many said Terran is OP, and a few Zergs battled their way through the masses and won it all. Which people didn't care about. It is just a ton of Protoss players that have alot of different styles, so preparing for them is hard. And if a Terran wins it only means that he had probably some sort of enlightenment against Protoss or that no one really trained XvT.
My bet is on a Zerg this season though.
battled through with overlord speed buff, queen range buff and stim+bunk+snipe nerfs
Yea because a zerg never won the GSL before those buffs...
I remember a very funny post of David Kim when SPL 2014 just started ...
"oh wait, we won't buff terran because they have won 5 games (4 cheeses 1 allin) and it looks like the game is balance because on 20 games, toss haven't won that much, so we finally won't touch the balance" ...
EPT
MVP.Dream and 
JinAir_TRUE and 
Terran (3): 
Protoss (15): 
Zerg (13): 
![[image loading]](http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/knaHoUoZo0U/mqdefault.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mvaPc8Z.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EdvDNHM.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jChgktD.png)
