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On January 18 2014 20:02 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote:
New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds. And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins.
Balance is... Code S level Terrans beating Code A/B Protoss in Proleague.
When a no-name Terran pulls off the sort of bullshittery that Patience managed at Dreamhack Winter, destroying a line-up of, say, Soulkey, Jaedong, and Life with random all-ins, then we'll have a conversation on our hands. In our mouths. Between our mouths. On... the... screen... ...between... our... keyboards.
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REality will definitely be in this season's code S. Along with dream , INnoVation and supernova as well as hack
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France9034 Posts
So this season will be PvPvZvPvZvZ ? Bleh... It's not going to help staying tuned in the stream....
On January 18 2014 20:02 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote:
New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds. And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins.
I'm by no mean talking about balance here, just something around the topic (meta-balance ?)
But don't. ever. point. out. the winratios in proleague, as it is ENTIRELY different from any other tournaments.
Want a simple proof ? How comes Flash is a monster in proleague and fails really really REALLY hard in Code A?
So no, Proleague doesn't even has the slightest relevance here.
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France9034 Posts
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On January 18 2014 20:42 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 20:02 Yonnua wrote:On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote:
New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds. And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins. Balance is... Code S level Terrans beating Code A/B Protoss in Proleague. When a no-name Terran pulls off the sort of bullshittery that Patience managed at Dreamhack Winter, destroying a line-up of, say, Soulkey, Jaedong, and Life with random all-ins, then we'll have a conversation on our hands. In our mouths. Between our mouths. On... the... screen... ...between... our... keyboards.
TY and Flash are Code B and only Maru Code S, Patience lost to Life and did not play vs Soulkey and Jaedong so you seem to know the scene and what happening very bad all I see is a mad comment with wrong information about balance.
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On January 18 2014 21:51 Ragnarork wrote:So this season will be PvPvZvPvZvZ ? Bleh... It's not going to help staying tuned in the stream.... Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 20:02 Yonnua wrote:On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote:
New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds. And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins. I'm by no mean talking about balance here, just something around the topic (meta-balance ?) But don't. ever. point. out. the winratios in proleague, as it is ENTIRELY different from any other tournaments. Want a simple proof ? How comes Flash is a monster in proleague and fails really really REALLY hard in Code A? So no, Proleague doesn't even has the slightest relevance here.
Losing to YongHwa and BrAvO who is now able to beat anyone is not a shame. It is Korea and not BW where Flash could beat anyone it is Korean SC2 where anyone can beat anyone and SPL and GSL show it already 4 years.
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No need to cry. TheBest will win this season GSL, afterall he is the best.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 18 2014 21:51 Ragnarork wrote:So this season will be PvPvZvPvZvZ ? Bleh... It's not going to help staying tuned in the stream.... Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 20:02 Yonnua wrote:On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote:
New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds. And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins. I'm by no mean talking about balance here, just something around the topic (meta-balance ?) But don't. ever. point. out. the winratios in proleague, as it is ENTIRELY different from any other tournaments. Want a simple proof ? How comes Flash is a monster in proleague and fails really really REALLY hard in Code A? So no, Proleague doesn't even has the slightest relevance here.
We can turn it around and ask why players that look like scrubs in Proleague make Code S left and right by qualifying through Code A. The truth is that while Proleague results may not transfer 1:1 into individual league results, it's certainly a relevant place to look for trends. For example, 5 of last season's top 10 performers have won an individual championship since the season ended, while 4 of the remaining five made it to Code S at least once.
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On January 18 2014 21:56 DiMano wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 20:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 18 2014 20:02 Yonnua wrote:On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote:
New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds. And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins. Balance is... Code S level Terrans beating Code A/B Protoss in Proleague. When a no-name Terran pulls off the sort of bullshittery that Patience managed at Dreamhack Winter, destroying a line-up of, say, Soulkey, Jaedong, and Life with random all-ins, then we'll have a conversation on our hands. In our mouths. Between our mouths. On... the... screen... ...between... our... keyboards. TY and Flash are Code B and only Maru Code S, Patience lost to Life and did not play vs Soulkey and Jaedong so you seem to know the scene and what happening very bad all I see is a mad comment with wrong information about balance.
Flash is Code B?
Flash is Code B?
He performed very well in the groups of death in RO16 in two premier Korean tournaments in 2013, and if he wasn't in those groups of death, would have very likely gone on to RO8. And a season later you're calling him "Code B"? That's a frickin joke.
I guess if Innovation drops out next week you'll call him a Code B player too?
As for Patience, you obviously misunderstood what I meant. I said that when a Terran player manages to do the same thing vs. top tier Zerg players that Patience, a Protoss, did against Terrans, then the races will be comparable.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
flash is code B, it's fact since he fell out of code A lol. if bogus doesn't make it, he will be code B too.
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On January 18 2014 22:33 opterown wrote:
flash is code B, it's fact since he fell out of code A lol. if bogus doesn't make it, he will be code B too.
OK, obviously I'm talking about their skill level. Bogus can fall out of Code B, he's still going to be one of the best players in the world. When I say "Code S player" I mean "Code S-quality player," as in "capable of taking on Soulkey in a 1v1 and has a solid chance of winning."
C'mon, that was pretty obvious. You teasing me? 
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On January 18 2014 13:02 Khai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 12:53 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote:On January 18 2014 12:44 Khai wrote:
Daedalus Point, worst map since Steppes of War. Absolutely devastated neither Flash nor Fantasy made it, Terran were doing so well at Proleague... Only because maru and ty are absolute monsters, that it gives the impression that terran is doing THAT well. It's no illusion, from week 2 we've seen Cure, Maru, TY, Flash, Reality, Dream, BrAvo win against Zs and Ps. That is hardly just 2 players carrying the entire race. Maru, TY and Flash are 3 of the standard bearers with plenty of wins and a really good winrate so far. I'd say that's quite a Terran comeback for a tournament branded the PvProleague. TvX winrate is also sitting incredibly high at the moment. Source: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Proleague/Round_1/Statistics
PvX winrates would be high if it was GM Toss vs silver Terran. Winrates are of a terrible sample size, my managed to pick the most unreliable source (Proleague has a history of Toss domination > Only XvP players get fielded. Also, SUPERB Terrans vs subpar Tosses) AND you managed to pick THE ONLY source showing TvP is fine.
Also, from the example of games you picked; IIRC:
Cure died 5-2 or 4-1. Maru/TY Yes, the BEST Terrans in the world. Flash -> killed 2-0 by Toss. Dream with an unscouted rax in main? Nice example of 'balance'.
Bravo lost 4-1 vs Solar. Meanwhile, you;ve forgotten Keen (4-1 lose) Gumiho (5-3 lose). Fantasy went 2-0 vs Toss.
All in all, you give a REALLY diluted view of balance. If you include Code A we can probably safely say Winrates favor toss. Again, terrible sample size.
PS - Code A says A LOT more about balance than a teamleague where a lot of other factors play a role. The fact there's A) very few terrans that made the cut and B) they die like flies says A LOT more than 1 good week in proleague.
On January 18 2014 22:06 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 21:51 Ragnarork wrote:So this season will be PvPvZvPvZvZ ? Bleh... It's not going to help staying tuned in the stream.... On January 18 2014 20:02 Yonnua wrote:On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote:
New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds. And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins. I'm by no mean talking about balance here, just something around the topic (meta-balance ?) But don't. ever. point. out. the winratios in proleague, as it is ENTIRELY different from any other tournaments. Want a simple proof ? How comes Flash is a monster in proleague and fails really really REALLY hard in Code A? So no, Proleague doesn't even has the slightest relevance here. We can turn it around and ask why players that look like scrubs in Proleague make Code S left and right by qualifying through Code A. The truth is that while Proleague results may not transfer 1:1 into individual league results, it's certainly a relevant place to look for trends. For example, 5 of last season's top 10 performers have won an individual championship since the season ended, while 4 of the remaining five made it to Code S at least once.
Looking for trends is still an option, but given the most games played by a player is 6 (IIRC, Maru) means we can't yet take a trend.
Proleague is a teamleague, different maps, different teams with different priorities, a lot of factors to consider, different strategies, more pressure to perform because all the teams weight is on your shoulders. Proleague also has a history of being Toss heavy and thus most players have excellent XvP. These all play a role in determining the winner and none of these play a role in determining a winner in a 1v1 tournament and why Proleague is a poor source for balance - there's too many other factors. You can however see that a player that goes 15-0 is really good.
On January 18 2014 21:56 DiMano wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 20:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 18 2014 20:02 Yonnua wrote:On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote:
New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds. And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins. Balance is... Code S level Terrans beating Code A/B Protoss in Proleague. When a no-name Terran pulls off the sort of bullshittery that Patience managed at Dreamhack Winter, destroying a line-up of, say, Soulkey, Jaedong, and Life with random all-ins, then we'll have a conversation on our hands. In our mouths. Between our mouths. On... the... screen... ...between... our... keyboards. TY and Flash are Code B and only Maru Code S, Patience lost to Life and did not play vs Soulkey and Jaedong so you seem to know the scene and what happening very bad all I see is a mad comment with wrong information about balance.
Following this logic, the game is always balanced.
If ALL of one races players fall to code B, the other races players are all Code A/S, than obviously it is fair that the code A players beat the Code B players, right?
So you can always say the other race is balanced because it's players are higher ranked without cosidering if there is maybe another reason for the sudden rise in skill for all Protoss players.
Just for funsies, I looked up Code A stats:
PvT 15-4 (78,95%)
PvZ 12-14 (46.16%)
TvZ 6–7 (46.15%)
Source: http://aligulac.com/results/events/23788-WCS-2014-Season-1-Korea-Code-A/
Looks good to me!
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 18 2014 23:00 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 21:56 DiMano wrote:On January 18 2014 20:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 18 2014 20:02 Yonnua wrote:On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote:
New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds. And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins. Balance is... Code S level Terrans beating Code A/B Protoss in Proleague. When a no-name Terran pulls off the sort of bullshittery that Patience managed at Dreamhack Winter, destroying a line-up of, say, Soulkey, Jaedong, and Life with random all-ins, then we'll have a conversation on our hands. In our mouths. Between our mouths. On... the... screen... ...between... our... keyboards. TY and Flash are Code B and only Maru Code S, Patience lost to Life and did not play vs Soulkey and Jaedong so you seem to know the scene and what happening very bad all I see is a mad comment with wrong information about balance. Following this logic, the game is always balanced. If ALL of one races players fall to code B, the other races players are all Code A/S, than obviously it is fair that the code A players beat the Code B players, right? So you can always say the other race is balanced because it's players are higher ranked without cosidering if there is maybe another reason for the sudden rise in skill for all Protoss players.
I think Protoss players are overall just better players than Terrans 
On January 18 2014 22:57 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 22:06 Zealously wrote:On January 18 2014 21:51 Ragnarork wrote:So this season will be PvPvZvPvZvZ ? Bleh... It's not going to help staying tuned in the stream.... On January 18 2014 20:02 Yonnua wrote:On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote:
New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds. And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins. I'm by no mean talking about balance here, just something around the topic (meta-balance ?) But don't. ever. point. out. the winratios in proleague, as it is ENTIRELY different from any other tournaments. Want a simple proof ? How comes Flash is a monster in proleague and fails really really REALLY hard in Code A? So no, Proleague doesn't even has the slightest relevance here. We can turn it around and ask why players that look like scrubs in Proleague make Code S left and right by qualifying through Code A. The truth is that while Proleague results may not transfer 1:1 into individual league results, it's certainly a relevant place to look for trends. For example, 5 of last season's top 10 performers have won an individual championship since the season ended, while 4 of the remaining five made it to Code S at least once. Looking for trends is still an option, but given the most games played by a player is 6 (IIRC, Maru) means we can't yet take a trend. Proleague is a teamleague, different maps, different teams with different priorities, a lot of factors to consider, different strategies, more pressure to perform because all the teams weight is on your shoulders. Proleague also has a history of being Toss heavy and thus most players have excellent XvP. These all play a role in determining the winner and none of these play a role in determining a winner in a 1v1 tournament and why Proleague is a poor source for balance - there's too many other factors. You can however see that a player that goes 15-0 is really good.
I can twist this into Code A being a bad source of balance information if you want.
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OK
Not saying Code A is the be all and all of information. Just that I don't consider Proleague the best of sources either, and yes, I'd probably say Code A is a better source than Proleague, and yes, sample size with both is incredibly small so there's no conclusions to draw.
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On January 18 2014 23:21 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 23:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 18 2014 21:56 DiMano wrote:On January 18 2014 20:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 18 2014 20:02 Yonnua wrote:On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote:
New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds. And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins. Balance is... Code S level Terrans beating Code A/B Protoss in Proleague. When a no-name Terran pulls off the sort of bullshittery that Patience managed at Dreamhack Winter, destroying a line-up of, say, Soulkey, Jaedong, and Life with random all-ins, then we'll have a conversation on our hands. In our mouths. Between our mouths. On... the... screen... ...between... our... keyboards. TY and Flash are Code B and only Maru Code S, Patience lost to Life and did not play vs Soulkey and Jaedong so you seem to know the scene and what happening very bad all I see is a mad comment with wrong information about balance. Following this logic, the game is always balanced. If ALL of one races players fall to code B, the other races players are all Code A/S, than obviously it is fair that the code A players beat the Code B players, right? So you can always say the other race is balanced because it's players are higher ranked without cosidering if there is maybe another reason for the sudden rise in skill for all Protoss players. I think Protoss players are overall just better players than Terrans
Who is more skilled, Patience or JYP?
Patience might have the hype, but JYP did what Patience could not: defeat Life 4-2!!!
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
The point of balance is that it doesn't just apply when it suits you. If a match-up is imbalanced, it'll be imbalanced in Code A just as it will in Proleague and online. You can expand the sample size for a better picture of game balance, and judging from 19 games (at any point is silly. While the argument "Well, only good terrans are beating Protoss players" often comes up (and has since the before last balance patch), Aligulac's enormous sample size indicated no significant balance in December, despite the forums erupting with "TvP is unwinnable".
Hell, you can look at the list of all recent tournament results and see if you can dig out some great injustice where a Protoss scrub beat a Code S level Terran. I haven't looked very far back, but I can't exactly find heaps and loads of crazy P > T upsets.
But hey, the match-up may be (slightly) imbalanced - I'm not necessarily saying it isn't. Just don't cherry pick certain tournaments and exclude some players because they're either too good, too bad or because they don't fit the point you're trying to make.
On January 18 2014 23:39 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 23:21 Zealously wrote:On January 18 2014 23:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 18 2014 21:56 DiMano wrote:On January 18 2014 20:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 18 2014 20:02 Yonnua wrote:On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote:
New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds. And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins. Balance is... Code S level Terrans beating Code A/B Protoss in Proleague. When a no-name Terran pulls off the sort of bullshittery that Patience managed at Dreamhack Winter, destroying a line-up of, say, Soulkey, Jaedong, and Life with random all-ins, then we'll have a conversation on our hands. In our mouths. Between our mouths. On... the... screen... ...between... our... keyboards. TY and Flash are Code B and only Maru Code S, Patience lost to Life and did not play vs Soulkey and Jaedong so you seem to know the scene and what happening very bad all I see is a mad comment with wrong information about balance. Following this logic, the game is always balanced. If ALL of one races players fall to code B, the other races players are all Code A/S, than obviously it is fair that the code A players beat the Code B players, right? So you can always say the other race is balanced because it's players are higher ranked without cosidering if there is maybe another reason for the sudden rise in skill for all Protoss players. I think Protoss players are overall just better players than Terrans Who is more skilled, Patience or JYP? Patience might have the hype, but JYP did what Patience could not: defeat Life 4-2!!!
Dude, that was 2.5 years ago when Life was on Zenex and JYP was a good player tt
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On January 18 2014 23:39 Zealously wrote:The point of balance is that it doesn't just apply when it suits you. If a match-up is imbalanced, it'll be imbalanced in Code A just as it will in Proleague and online. You can expand the sample size for a better picture of game balance, and judging from 19 games (at any point is silly. While the argument "Well, only good terrans are beating Protoss players" often comes up (and has since the before last balance patch), Aligulac's enormous sample size indicated no significant balance in December, despite the forums erupting with "TvP is unwinnable". Hell, you can look at the list of all recent tournament results and see if you can dig out some great injustice where a Protoss scrub beat a Code S level Terran. I haven't looked very far back, but I can't exactly find heaps and loads of crazy P > T upsets. But hey, the match-up may be (slightly) imbalanced - I'm not necessarily saying it isn't. Just don't cherry pick certain tournaments and exclude some players because they're either too good, too bad or because they don't fit the point you're trying to make.
I actually did an analysis of all post-Blizzcon tournament results several weeks ago, right before Proleague started up. So no Proleague and no Code A results counted.
PvT from all premier tournaments with major Korean presence: 136-145, 47%. The numbers look balanced, slightly in Terran favor in fact. It's something you'd expect to see from David Kim. But then you look at the players participating at these events - top top top Terrans show up literally twice as often as top top top Protoss (26 vs. 13). The rest of the Protoss are Code A/B nobodies, but they still manage to win often enough to keep the ratio almost balanced.
This considering that top Protoss really aren't comparable to top Terran IMO. I counted Naniwa, Parting, sOs, Trap among the top tier, and do they honestly measure up to Innovation, Bomber, Maru, Taeja? I don't think many people would say that they do.
Here's the link to the original post.
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EPT
