Mech and Daedalus point stole the show on Thursday night, but for different reasons.
by Waxangel
While the successes and failures of fan favorites were at the center of attention in the earlier Code A groups, groups E and F were all about the games and their demonstration of recent trends.
Mech's Day In the Sun
A wise man once said that if the words "mech" and "viable" appear together in a forum post, it's time to abandon the thread. As one of the most iconic and over-romanticized strategies of Brood War, mech has never ceased to be a topic of fierce debate in StarCraft 2. Does it live up to the spirit of Brood War mech? Is turtling gameplay something we really want? Is it really viable at the pro level? While we can't answer the first two questions, recent Code A and Proleague matches suggest the answer to the last question is a yes.
After BrAvO used mech to beat Leenock into submission in one of Wednesday's games, both CJ_Bbyong and JinAir_Cure pulled out the strategy in their TvZ games on Thursday night. The results were mixed, with Bbyong being able to stomp all over Solar, while Cure was picked apart by RorO's excellent guerrilla tactics. Regardless of the results, it was telling that a once niche TvZ strategy made it into the arsenals of three different players.
The truly interesting development was Cure's decision to bring mech out in TvP. Though some brave souls like Bomber had tried to use mech as a surprise strategy in TvP, such attempts had typically been met with utter failure. What's more, Cure decided to deploy mech on Frost, an absolutely massive map with plenty of room for a slow composition to get outmaneuvered. Yet, Cure found a way to win. Thanks to poor judgment from Hurricane (who lost much ground attempting some poor 2-base pressure) and devastating late-game EMPs from Cure, the mech army was able to easily reduce the Protoss army to rubble when the time came for a final engagement.
With just one match, it's hard to tell if TvP mech will continue to pop up in GSL games, or if it was just a clever one-off strategy by Cure. In his remaining TvPs, Cure declined to play any more mech, opting for bio instead (which he gave his own twist as well, adding in plenty of widow mines). More reasons to keep our eyes on the GSL going forward!
Daedalus Point Woes
There was another trend in the Code A matches, this one rather glaring: Daedalus Point was distorting PvZ. With a ridiculously wide ramp and no way to execute any of the standard wall-offs, Protoss players were forced to go for unorthodox strategies to try and win. This approach seemed to work in the first few games, with Zergs getting caught off guard by wild strategies like 1-base DTs or offensive walling beneath their own ramps. However, The later matches saw Zerg players come prepared for such scenarios, with Azubu.Symbol punishing a naive attempt to perform the offensive wall with a fast nydus, and Samsung_Solar happily shutting down MVP.Super's proxy gate with the smallest bit of drone scouting.
One has to think there's a problem with a map when ST_Life, a virtuoso of balance complaining, begins to criticize it on behalf of Protoss players. Fortunately for the Code S players, the new format of Code A allows it to effectively act as a test run before the Code S season starts in earnest. With another week of Code A remaining and the complaints of progamers mounting, one has to think that a solution will be found in time for Code S. Unfortunately, it will be too late for the players who have already been eliminated.
Terran Finally in Code S!
Speaking of imbalance, let's look at the qualified races for Code S so far: 11 Protoss, 8 Zerg, 2 Terran. WHAT?
Terran has been the powerhouse of the GSL forever, but it seems like those days are long gone. Last season's quarterfinalist jjakji joined players like TaeJa, MMA, Bomber, and Mvp in looking for easier money abroad, leaving only JinAir_Maru to hold the fort as a seeded Terran player. Fortunately for Terran fans, CJ's Bbyong fought his way through Code A to become the second Terran player in this season's Code S, but only after five other Terrans fell before him.
The prospects for Terran in the upcoming six groups are better. Top Terran INnoVation headlines a group of players that include sKyHigh, Reality, Hack, SuperNova, TheBest, Dream, and Ryung. Hack and Ryung in particular are players who have returned from the WCS America region, staunching some of the talent bleeding. But unless all those aforementioned Terran players play out of their minds, we could be facing one of the worst Terran seasons in GSL history.
*Tell Fantasy that Flash is doing badly too* (112)
74%
*Cuddles Fantasy* (25)
16%
*Whisper sweet nothings in Fantasy's ear* (11)
7%
*Pats Fantasy on the back* (4)
3%
152 total votes
Your vote: Condolences for Fantasy?
(Vote): *Cuddles Fantasy* (Vote): *Tell Fantasy that Flash is doing badly too* (Vote): *Whisper sweet nothings in Fantasy's ear* (Vote): *Pats Fantasy on the back*
I feel bad for Flash. Only because I know he is working so hard, and struggling to get results in individual leagues. I didn't see his games vs Bravo, and event though Bravo also didn't make it out of his group, he is scary good. So I dunno what to make of it all.Cure played brilliant TvP, but lost to mass storm which is tough to deal with right now. But I seriously think Cure is onto something with his Widow mines mixed into Bio. He used it so well.
On January 18 2014 12:07 Kon-Tiki wrote: Hope they axe daedalus point. The map has serious issues
Personally, and especially as a Terran player looking on from the outside of the PvZ woes, I really hope they keep Daedalus. It's led to some amazing innovation - the map pools have all very much conformed to certain styles, and as such creative play has stagnated a lot.
Sure, maybe they can make the ramp a little less wide, but I kind of like the idea that players can't just blindly nexus or forge FE - at least they have to do a bit of scouting. I'm a big proponent of map diversity from a viewing perspective, because it makes players think outside the box. Players like TLO and Boxer were renowned for their creative flair in the early days of WoL, and part of that was because the maps really were more diverse back then - you had Thor Drops on Lost Temple, fast gold rushes on Metalopolis, siege tank lines on the cliffs of Shakuras Plateau.
Sure, maybe the game wasn't fully balanced then - maybe I like the style because I'm Terran and I love mixing play up on the ladder. But you have to admit, it was a lot more interesting watching that than just wondering "is this 2 base 7 gate all-in going to fail or succeed this time?". We're finally beginning to again see the back-and-forth creative builds and on-the-fly counters from maps like Habitation Station and Daedalus point again, from a strategic viewpoint it's a lot more interesting to watch in my opinion.
On January 18 2014 12:07 Kon-Tiki wrote: Hope they axe daedalus point. The map has serious issues
Personally, and especially as a Terran player looking on from the outside of the PvZ woes, I really hope they keep Daedalus. It's led to some amazing innovation - the map pools have all very much conformed to certain styles, and as such creative play has stagnated a lot.
Sure, maybe they can make the ramp a little less wide, but I kind of like the idea that players can't just blindly nexus or forge FE - at least they have to do a bit of scouting. I'm a big proponent of map diversity from a viewing perspective, because it makes players think outside the box. Players like TLO and Boxer were renowned for their creative flair in the early days of WoL, and part of that was because the maps really were more diverse back then - you had Thor Drops on Lost Temple, fast gold rushes on Metalopolis, siege tank lines on the cliffs of Shakuras Plateau.
Sure, maybe the game wasn't fully balanced then - maybe I like the style because I'm Terran and I love mixing play up on the ladder. But you have to admit, it was a lot more interesting watching that than just wondering "is this 2 base 7 gate all-in going to fail or succeed this time?". We're finally beginning to again see the back-and-forth creative builds and on-the-fly counters from maps like Habitation Station and Daedalus point again, from a strategic viewpoint it's a lot more interesting to watch in my opinion.
Daedalus point doesn't encourage "innovative play". It makes protosses lose. The map is functionally equivalent to a massive nerf to protoss whilst leaving the other races completely unaffected. Every single thing a protoss does on that map is going to be a weaker version of what he would normally do, whether it be a tricksy all-in or a safe macro opener. Meanwhile, the zerg is going to be even stronger than he otherwise would be because zerg, more so than any other race, is only limited in its strength by what the opponent does to limit that strength. Protosses on that map will do strategies that rely entirely on their opponent never having seen it before, and since there are only so many things you can do on one base, protosses will reach the bottom of their bag of tricks really fast... and then they'll stop winning.
On January 18 2014 12:44 Khai wrote: Daedalus Point, worst map since Steppes of War. Absolutely devastated neither Flash nor Fantasy made it, Terran were doing so well at Proleague...
Only because maru and ty are absolute monsters, that it gives the impression that terran is doing THAT well.
On January 18 2014 11:54 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: As one of the most iconic and over-romanticized strategies of Brood War, mech has never ceased to be a topic of fierce debate in StarCraft 2. Does it live up to the spirit of Brood War mech?
The mech notion has always been a bit baffling to me. Am I not remembering things correctly? It seems to me that in the only Brood War matchup where bio and mech were equally viable - TvZ - bio was considered by most spectators to be the preferable way to go. That was certainly my opinion, and I say this as a massive fan of Fantasy.
On January 18 2014 11:54 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:Speaking of imbalance, let's look at the qualified races for Code S so far: 11 Protoss, 8 Zerg, 2 Terran. WHAT?
Terran might actually edge out Protoss from October '11 GSL as the least represented race in a GSL Code S.
Fortunately, Protoss cannot beat Terran as most represented race. I don't think I could stomach that much PvP.
On January 18 2014 12:44 Khai wrote: Daedalus Point, worst map since Steppes of War. Absolutely devastated neither Flash nor Fantasy made it, Terran were doing so well at Proleague...
Only because maru and ty are absolute monsters, that it gives the impression that terran is doing THAT well.
It's no illusion, from week 2 we've seen Cure, Maru, TY, Flash, Reality, Dream, BrAvo win against Zs and Ps. That is hardly just 2 players carrying the entire race.
Maru, TY and Flash are 3 of the standard bearers with plenty of wins and a really good winrate so far. I'd say that's quite a Terran comeback for a tournament branded the PvProleague. TvX winrate is also sitting incredibly high at the moment.
New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
On January 18 2014 13:13 narucy wrote: Flash and Fantasy is not bad, but unfortunately top level SC2 is such a high variance game, best rated player losing very often. See you next season.
It's not that high though. As much as people attribute these things to high variance - Rain, Soulkey, Jaedong, Maru, to name a few, are constantly at the top (Maru moreso recently). As much as people love Flash and Fantasy (they were the 2 I wanted most to advance), they're not as good as the best.
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
I enjoy them all except though except maybe TvP so I guess you speak only for yourself.
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
is there anything more annoying than these blog posts where someone tries to pass off their tired balance/design complaints as casual commentary? we get it, you're one of the many people who thinks the game has major design flaws. hell, even i think the game has major design flaws. yet somehow i don't feel the need to make these smug, sarcastic "*sigh* when will blizzard do something about this?" posts
On January 18 2014 15:40 Whitewing wrote: Well, there are fewer terrans in code S, but I guess that's what happens when a bunch of the best terran players go overseas.
So if PartinG and sOs joined Dear, HerO, and MC abroad, Protoss would stop making it into Code S? :D
On January 18 2014 15:40 Whitewing wrote: Well, there are fewer terrans in code S, but I guess that's what happens when a bunch of the best terran players go overseas.
So if PartinG and sOs joined Dear, HerO, and MC abroad, Protoss would stop making it into Code S? :D
Not stop, but there would be fewer. There will be more terrans making it in this season, just wait for the rest of the groups.
On January 18 2014 13:02 Khai wrote: Maru, TY and Flash are 3 of the standard bearers with plenty of wins and a really good winrate so far. I'd say that's quite a Terran comeback for a tournament branded the PvProleague. TvX winrate is also sitting incredibly high at the moment.
On January 18 2014 15:40 Whitewing wrote: Well, there are fewer terrans in code S, but I guess that's what happens when a bunch of the best terran players go overseas.
So if PartinG and sOs joined Dear, HerO, and MC abroad, Protoss would stop making it into Code S? :D
Not stop, but there would be fewer. There will be more terrans making it in this season, just wait for the rest of the groups.
I've heard that the Dresden Files get better from the third book onward, but how the hell do people get through book 3 to find out??? The way Jim Butcher non-chalantly brought up the fact that Harry Dresden has (and apparently always had) a BFF completely invalidated how lonely he seemed in the first two books and how one-man his crusades really were. Not only that, but he's basically a saint, which should push the buttons of someone as snarky and irreverent as Harry a hundred times more than any of the cops he runs into in a day's work, but now it turns out he's secretly a very tolerant person?! What!
...sorry for the rant. Haven't met anyone else who read the books. That feels a lot better. :D
On January 18 2014 12:05 SpunXtain20 wrote: Oh, Fantasy.
Poll: Condolences for Fantasy?
*Tell Fantasy that Flash is doing badly too* (112)
74%
*Cuddles Fantasy* (25)
16%
*Whisper sweet nothings in Fantasy's ear* (11)
7%
*Pats Fantasy on the back* (4)
3%
152 total votes
Your vote: Condolences for Fantasy?
(Vote): *Cuddles Fantasy* (Vote): *Tell Fantasy that Flash is doing badly too* (Vote): *Whisper sweet nothings in Fantasy's ear* (Vote): *Pats Fantasy on the back*
What about "Your skill might be forgotten, but your GG timing will live on?"
On January 18 2014 12:05 SpunXtain20 wrote: Oh, Fantasy.
Poll: Condolences for Fantasy?
*Tell Fantasy that Flash is doing badly too* (112)
74%
*Cuddles Fantasy* (25)
16%
*Whisper sweet nothings in Fantasy's ear* (11)
7%
*Pats Fantasy on the back* (4)
3%
152 total votes
Your vote: Condolences for Fantasy?
(Vote): *Cuddles Fantasy* (Vote): *Tell Fantasy that Flash is doing badly too* (Vote): *Whisper sweet nothings in Fantasy's ear* (Vote): *Pats Fantasy on the back*
What about "Your skill might be forgotten, but your GG timing will live on?"
Fantasy vs. TRUE. GSL 2013 S2, RO32, game 1, Whirlwind. Never forget.
I love how when Proleague started and terrans were doing well everyone was crying.. It really is amazing how perceived imbalance changes so fast and from extreme to extreme even without any balance changes
gsl was always about 16 terrans in code s so i am happy that last year and now we have more players from other races, after 2013 where terrans won half of all premier events I really want to see zerg and protoss win more premier events then terrans.
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins.
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins.
Balance is... Code S level Terrans beating Code A/B Protoss in Proleague.
When a no-name Terran pulls off the sort of bullshittery that Patience managed at Dreamhack Winter, destroying a line-up of, say, Soulkey, Jaedong, and Life with random all-ins, then we'll have a conversation on our hands. In our mouths. Between our mouths. On... the... screen... ...between... our... keyboards.
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins.
I'm by no mean talking about balance here, just something around the topic (meta-balance ?)
But don't. ever. point. out. the winratios in proleague, as it is ENTIRELY different from any other tournaments.
Want a simple proof ? How comes Flash is a monster in proleague and fails really really REALLY hard in Code A?
So no, Proleague doesn't even has the slightest relevance here.
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins.
Balance is... Code S level Terrans beating Code A/B Protoss in Proleague.
When a no-name Terran pulls off the sort of bullshittery that Patience managed at Dreamhack Winter, destroying a line-up of, say, Soulkey, Jaedong, and Life with random all-ins, then we'll have a conversation on our hands. In our mouths. Between our mouths. On... the... screen... ...between... our... keyboards.
TY and Flash are Code B and only Maru Code S, Patience lost to Life and did not play vs Soulkey and Jaedong so you seem to know the scene and what happening very bad all I see is a mad comment with wrong information about balance.
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins.
I'm by no mean talking about balance here, just something around the topic (meta-balance ?)
But don't. ever. point. out. the winratios in proleague, as it is ENTIRELY different from any other tournaments.
Want a simple proof ? How comes Flash is a monster in proleague and fails really really REALLY hard in Code A?
So no, Proleague doesn't even has the slightest relevance here.
Losing to YongHwa and BrAvO who is now able to beat anyone is not a shame. It is Korea and not BW where Flash could beat anyone it is Korean SC2 where anyone can beat anyone and SPL and GSL show it already 4 years.
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins.
I'm by no mean talking about balance here, just something around the topic (meta-balance ?)
But don't. ever. point. out. the winratios in proleague, as it is ENTIRELY different from any other tournaments.
Want a simple proof ? How comes Flash is a monster in proleague and fails really really REALLY hard in Code A?
So no, Proleague doesn't even has the slightest relevance here.
We can turn it around and ask why players that look like scrubs in Proleague make Code S left and right by qualifying through Code A. The truth is that while Proleague results may not transfer 1:1 into individual league results, it's certainly a relevant place to look for trends. For example, 5 of last season's top 10 performers have won an individual championship since the season ended, while 4 of the remaining five made it to Code S at least once.
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins.
Balance is... Code S level Terrans beating Code A/B Protoss in Proleague.
When a no-name Terran pulls off the sort of bullshittery that Patience managed at Dreamhack Winter, destroying a line-up of, say, Soulkey, Jaedong, and Life with random all-ins, then we'll have a conversation on our hands. In our mouths. Between our mouths. On... the... screen... ...between... our... keyboards.
TY and Flash are Code B and only Maru Code S, Patience lost to Life and did not play vs Soulkey and Jaedong so you seem to know the scene and what happening very bad all I see is a mad comment with wrong information about balance.
Flash is Code B?
Flash is Code B?
He performed very well in the groups of death in RO16 in two premier Korean tournaments in 2013, and if he wasn't in those groups of death, would have very likely gone on to RO8. And a season later you're calling him "Code B"? That's a frickin joke.
I guess if Innovation drops out next week you'll call him a Code B player too?
As for Patience, you obviously misunderstood what I meant. I said that when a Terran player manages to do the same thing vs. top tier Zerg players that Patience, a Protoss, did against Terrans, then the races will be comparable.
On January 18 2014 22:33 opterown wrote: flash is code B, it's fact since he fell out of code A lol. if bogus doesn't make it, he will be code B too.
OK, obviously I'm talking about their skill level. Bogus can fall out of Code B, he's still going to be one of the best players in the world. When I say "Code S player" I mean "Code S-quality player," as in "capable of taking on Soulkey in a 1v1 and has a solid chance of winning."
On January 18 2014 12:44 Khai wrote: Daedalus Point, worst map since Steppes of War. Absolutely devastated neither Flash nor Fantasy made it, Terran were doing so well at Proleague...
Only because maru and ty are absolute monsters, that it gives the impression that terran is doing THAT well.
It's no illusion, from week 2 we've seen Cure, Maru, TY, Flash, Reality, Dream, BrAvo win against Zs and Ps. That is hardly just 2 players carrying the entire race.
Maru, TY and Flash are 3 of the standard bearers with plenty of wins and a really good winrate so far. I'd say that's quite a Terran comeback for a tournament branded the PvProleague. TvX winrate is also sitting incredibly high at the moment.
PvX winrates would be high if it was GM Toss vs silver Terran. Winrates are of a terrible sample size, my managed to pick the most unreliable source (Proleague has a history of Toss domination > Only XvP players get fielded. Also, SUPERB Terrans vs subpar Tosses) AND you managed to pick THE ONLY source showing TvP is fine.
Also, from the example of games you picked; IIRC: Cure died 5-2 or 4-1. Maru/TY Yes, the BEST Terrans in the world. Flash -> killed 2-0 by Toss. Dream with an unscouted rax in main? Nice example of 'balance'. Bravo lost 4-1 vs Solar. Meanwhile, you;ve forgotten Keen (4-1 lose) Gumiho (5-3 lose). Fantasy went 2-0 vs Toss.
All in all, you give a REALLY diluted view of balance. If you include Code A we can probably safely say Winrates favor toss. Again, terrible sample size.
PS - Code A says A LOT more about balance than a teamleague where a lot of other factors play a role. The fact there's A) very few terrans that made the cut and B) they die like flies says A LOT more than 1 good week in proleague.
On January 18 2014 21:51 Ragnarork wrote: So this season will be PvPvZvPvZvZ ? Bleh... It's not going to help staying tuned in the stream....
On January 18 2014 20:02 Yonnua wrote:
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins.
I'm by no mean talking about balance here, just something around the topic (meta-balance ?)
But don't. ever. point. out. the winratios in proleague, as it is ENTIRELY different from any other tournaments.
Want a simple proof ? How comes Flash is a monster in proleague and fails really really REALLY hard in Code A?
So no, Proleague doesn't even has the slightest relevance here.
We can turn it around and ask why players that look like scrubs in Proleague make Code S left and right by qualifying through Code A. The truth is that while Proleague results may not transfer 1:1 into individual league results, it's certainly a relevant place to look for trends. For example, 5 of last season's top 10 performers have won an individual championship since the season ended, while 4 of the remaining five made it to Code S at least once.
Looking for trends is still an option, but given the most games played by a player is 6 (IIRC, Maru) means we can't yet take a trend. Proleague is a teamleague, different maps, different teams with different priorities, a lot of factors to consider, different strategies, more pressure to perform because all the teams weight is on your shoulders. Proleague also has a history of being Toss heavy and thus most players have excellent XvP. These all play a role in determining the winner and none of these play a role in determining a winner in a 1v1 tournament and why Proleague is a poor source for balance - there's too many other factors. You can however see that a player that goes 15-0 is really good.
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins.
Balance is... Code S level Terrans beating Code A/B Protoss in Proleague.
When a no-name Terran pulls off the sort of bullshittery that Patience managed at Dreamhack Winter, destroying a line-up of, say, Soulkey, Jaedong, and Life with random all-ins, then we'll have a conversation on our hands. In our mouths. Between our mouths. On... the... screen... ...between... our... keyboards.
TY and Flash are Code B and only Maru Code S, Patience lost to Life and did not play vs Soulkey and Jaedong so you seem to know the scene and what happening very bad all I see is a mad comment with wrong information about balance.
Following this logic, the game is always balanced. If ALL of one races players fall to code B, the other races players are all Code A/S, than obviously it is fair that the code A players beat the Code B players, right?
So you can always say the other race is balanced because it's players are higher ranked without cosidering if there is maybe another reason for the sudden rise in skill for all Protoss players.
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins.
Balance is... Code S level Terrans beating Code A/B Protoss in Proleague.
When a no-name Terran pulls off the sort of bullshittery that Patience managed at Dreamhack Winter, destroying a line-up of, say, Soulkey, Jaedong, and Life with random all-ins, then we'll have a conversation on our hands. In our mouths. Between our mouths. On... the... screen... ...between... our... keyboards.
TY and Flash are Code B and only Maru Code S, Patience lost to Life and did not play vs Soulkey and Jaedong so you seem to know the scene and what happening very bad all I see is a mad comment with wrong information about balance.
Following this logic, the game is always balanced. If ALL of one races players fall to code B, the other races players are all Code A/S, than obviously it is fair that the code A players beat the Code B players, right?
So you can always say the other race is balanced because it's players are higher ranked without cosidering if there is maybe another reason for the sudden rise in skill for all Protoss players.
I think Protoss players are overall just better players than Terrans
On January 18 2014 21:51 Ragnarork wrote: So this season will be PvPvZvPvZvZ ? Bleh... It's not going to help staying tuned in the stream....
On January 18 2014 20:02 Yonnua wrote:
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins.
I'm by no mean talking about balance here, just something around the topic (meta-balance ?)
But don't. ever. point. out. the winratios in proleague, as it is ENTIRELY different from any other tournaments.
Want a simple proof ? How comes Flash is a monster in proleague and fails really really REALLY hard in Code A?
So no, Proleague doesn't even has the slightest relevance here.
We can turn it around and ask why players that look like scrubs in Proleague make Code S left and right by qualifying through Code A. The truth is that while Proleague results may not transfer 1:1 into individual league results, it's certainly a relevant place to look for trends. For example, 5 of last season's top 10 performers have won an individual championship since the season ended, while 4 of the remaining five made it to Code S at least once.
Looking for trends is still an option, but given the most games played by a player is 6 (IIRC, Maru) means we can't yet take a trend. Proleague is a teamleague, different maps, different teams with different priorities, a lot of factors to consider, different strategies, more pressure to perform because all the teams weight is on your shoulders. Proleague also has a history of being Toss heavy and thus most players have excellent XvP. These all play a role in determining the winner and none of these play a role in determining a winner in a 1v1 tournament and why Proleague is a poor source for balance - there's too many other factors. You can however see that a player that goes 15-0 is really good.
I can twist this into Code A being a bad source of balance information if you want.
Not saying Code A is the be all and all of information. Just that I don't consider Proleague the best of sources either, and yes, I'd probably say Code A is a better source than Proleague, and yes, sample size with both is incredibly small so there's no conclusions to draw.
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins.
Balance is... Code S level Terrans beating Code A/B Protoss in Proleague.
When a no-name Terran pulls off the sort of bullshittery that Patience managed at Dreamhack Winter, destroying a line-up of, say, Soulkey, Jaedong, and Life with random all-ins, then we'll have a conversation on our hands. In our mouths. Between our mouths. On... the... screen... ...between... our... keyboards.
TY and Flash are Code B and only Maru Code S, Patience lost to Life and did not play vs Soulkey and Jaedong so you seem to know the scene and what happening very bad all I see is a mad comment with wrong information about balance.
Following this logic, the game is always balanced. If ALL of one races players fall to code B, the other races players are all Code A/S, than obviously it is fair that the code A players beat the Code B players, right?
So you can always say the other race is balanced because it's players are higher ranked without cosidering if there is maybe another reason for the sudden rise in skill for all Protoss players.
I think Protoss players are overall just better players than Terrans
Who is more skilled, Patience or JYP?
Patience might have the hype, but JYP did what Patience could not: defeat Life 4-2!!!
The point of balance is that it doesn't just apply when it suits you. If a match-up is imbalanced, it'll be imbalanced in Code A just as it will in Proleague and online. You can expand the sample size for a better picture of game balance, and judging from 19 games (at any point is silly. While the argument "Well, only good terrans are beating Protoss players" often comes up (and has since the before last balance patch), Aligulac's enormous sample size indicated no significant balance in December, despite the forums erupting with "TvP is unwinnable". Hell, you can look at the list of all recent tournament results and see if you can dig out some great injustice where a Protoss scrub beat a Code S level Terran. I haven't looked very far back, but I can't exactly find heaps and loads of crazy P > T upsets.
But hey, the match-up may be (slightly) imbalanced - I'm not necessarily saying it isn't. Just don't cherry pick certain tournaments and exclude some players because they're either too good, too bad or because they don't fit the point you're trying to make.
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
And yet TvP in proleague is 70% in favour of terran and protoss only has a 41% win rate overall, so I guess protoss probably aren't that imbalanced are they? Different races are doing well in different places, but it's looking fairly balanced overall. Any of the races can take wins.
Balance is... Code S level Terrans beating Code A/B Protoss in Proleague.
When a no-name Terran pulls off the sort of bullshittery that Patience managed at Dreamhack Winter, destroying a line-up of, say, Soulkey, Jaedong, and Life with random all-ins, then we'll have a conversation on our hands. In our mouths. Between our mouths. On... the... screen... ...between... our... keyboards.
TY and Flash are Code B and only Maru Code S, Patience lost to Life and did not play vs Soulkey and Jaedong so you seem to know the scene and what happening very bad all I see is a mad comment with wrong information about balance.
Following this logic, the game is always balanced. If ALL of one races players fall to code B, the other races players are all Code A/S, than obviously it is fair that the code A players beat the Code B players, right?
So you can always say the other race is balanced because it's players are higher ranked without cosidering if there is maybe another reason for the sudden rise in skill for all Protoss players.
I think Protoss players are overall just better players than Terrans
Who is more skilled, Patience or JYP?
Patience might have the hype, but JYP did what Patience could not: defeat Life 4-2!!!
Dude, that was 2.5 years ago when Life was on Zenex and JYP was a good player tt
On January 18 2014 23:39 Zealously wrote: The point of balance is that it doesn't just apply when it suits you. If a match-up is imbalanced, it'll be imbalanced in Code A just as it will in Proleague and online. You can expand the sample size for a better picture of game balance, and judging from 19 games (at any point is silly. While the argument "Well, only good terrans are beating Protoss players" often comes up (and has since the before last balance patch), Aligulac's enormous sample size indicated no significant balance in December, despite the forums erupting with "TvP is unwinnable". Hell, you can look at the list of all recent tournament results and see if you can dig out some great injustice where a Protoss scrub beat a Code S level Terran. I haven't looked very far back, but I can't exactly find heaps and loads of crazy P > T upsets.
But hey, the match-up may be (slightly) imbalanced - I'm not necessarily saying it isn't. Just don't cherry pick certain tournaments and exclude some players because they're either too good, too bad or because they don't fit the point you're trying to make.
I actually did an analysis of all post-Blizzcon tournament results several weeks ago, right before Proleague started up. So no Proleague and no Code A results counted.
PvT from all premier tournaments with major Korean presence: 136-145, 47%. The numbers look balanced, slightly in Terran favor in fact. It's something you'd expect to see from David Kim. But then you look at the players participating at these events - top top top Terrans show up literally twice as often as top top top Protoss (26 vs. 13). The rest of the Protoss are Code A/B nobodies, but they still manage to win often enough to keep the ratio almost balanced.
This considering that top Protoss really aren't comparable to top Terran IMO. I counted Naniwa, Parting, sOs, Trap among the top tier, and do they honestly measure up to Innovation, Bomber, Maru, Taeja? I don't think many people would say that they do.
On January 18 2014 23:39 Zealously wrote: The point of balance is that it doesn't just apply when it suits you. If a match-up is imbalanced, it'll be imbalanced in Code A just as it will in Proleague and online. You can expand the sample size for a better picture of game balance, and judging from 19 games (at any point is silly. While the argument "Well, only good terrans are beating Protoss players" often comes up (and has since the before last balance patch), Aligulac's enormous sample size indicated no significant balance in December, despite the forums erupting with "TvP is unwinnable". Hell, you can look at the list of all recent tournament results and see if you can dig out some great injustice where a Protoss scrub beat a Code S level Terran. I haven't looked very far back, but I can't exactly find heaps and loads of crazy P > T upsets.
But hey, the match-up may be (slightly) imbalanced - I'm not necessarily saying it isn't. Just don't cherry pick certain tournaments and exclude some players because they're either too good, too bad or because they don't fit the point you're trying to make.
I actually did an analysis of all post-Blizzcon tournament results several weeks ago, right before Proleague started up. So no Proleague and no Code A results counted.
PvT from all premier tournaments with major Korean presence: 136-145, 47%. The numbers look balanced, slightly in Terran favor in fact. It's something you'd expect to see from David Kim. But then you look at the players participating at these events - top top top Terrans show up literally twice as often as top top top Protoss (26 vs. 13). The rest of the Protoss are Code A/B nobodies, but they still manage to win often enough to keep the ratio almost balanced.
This considering that top Protoss really aren't comparable to top Terran IMO. I counted Naniwa, Parting, sOs, Trap among the top tier, and do they honestly measure up to Innovation, Bomber, Maru, Taeja? I don't think many people would say that they do.
So you think some players beating other players aren't good enough to beat those players. Okay. When it comes to foreigners, I'm willing to accept that someone like Welmu beating someone like Innovation would be strange, but when it comes to the Korean scene, more often than not, people don't know the players well enough to accurately analyse balance based on who beats who. There are players that are absolute terrors online that fail to make it to Code A, and people who don't research players enough will (logically) interpret that as said player being Code B level and not good enough to beat the Code A/S player in a balanced game. But that's often not the case.
i dont like the fact that alot of koraens switch their regions.. GSL becomes more unimportant wich is really sad cause it was known as the starcraft champions league (compared to soccer) or starcraft superbowl :/
On January 18 2014 23:39 Zealously wrote: The point of balance is that it doesn't just apply when it suits you. If a match-up is imbalanced, it'll be imbalanced in Code A just as it will in Proleague and online. You can expand the sample size for a better picture of game balance, and judging from 19 games (at any point is silly. While the argument "Well, only good terrans are beating Protoss players" often comes up (and has since the before last balance patch), Aligulac's enormous sample size indicated no significant balance in December, despite the forums erupting with "TvP is unwinnable". Hell, you can look at the list of all recent tournament results and see if you can dig out some great injustice where a Protoss scrub beat a Code S level Terran. I haven't looked very far back, but I can't exactly find heaps and loads of crazy P > T upsets.
But hey, the match-up may be (slightly) imbalanced - I'm not necessarily saying it isn't. Just don't cherry pick certain tournaments and exclude some players because they're either too good, too bad or because they don't fit the point you're trying to make.
I actually did an analysis of all post-Blizzcon tournament results several weeks ago, right before Proleague started up. So no Proleague and no Code A results counted.
PvT from all premier tournaments with major Korean presence: 136-145, 47%. The numbers look balanced, slightly in Terran favor in fact. It's something you'd expect to see from David Kim. But then you look at the players participating at these events - top top top Terrans show up literally twice as often as top top top Protoss (26 vs. 13). The rest of the Protoss are Code A/B nobodies, but they still manage to win often enough to keep the ratio almost balanced.
This considering that top Protoss really aren't comparable to top Terran IMO. I counted Naniwa, Parting, sOs, Trap among the top tier, and do they honestly measure up to Innovation, Bomber, Maru, Taeja? I don't think many people would say that they do.
So you think some players beating other players aren't good enough to beat those players. Okay. When it comes to foreigners, I'm willing to accept that someone like Welmu beating someone like Innovation would be strange, but when it comes to the Korean scene, more often than not, people don't know the players well enough to accurately analyse balance based on who beats who. There are players that are absolute terrors online that fail to make it to Code A, and people who don't research players enough will (logically) interpret that as said player being Code B level and not good enough to beat the Code A/S player in a balanced game. But that's often not the case.
Yep pure.Wasted shows that he knows nothing about Code B/A players and makes out INno, Bomber and TaeJa the best players ever existed... The funny moment was when everyone in Korea considered Sniper as a championship calibre player and said he and Life were the best young zergs in Korea and MVP used Sniper as their ace in almost all teamleagues atm and people on TL were like wtf he played imba race and had won only coz of it :D It really annoyed me then I just stopped reading comments coz it was always like wtf how this noname korean guy won this event etc...
Also an example: Interview with Solar
Anything else you would like to say?
Teammate Armani disappointingly failed to make it through the qualifiers. But I have a feeling that he will see the light soon because he is such a great player. Lastly, I hope that all my teammates can advance through the qualifiers.
Can you read between? If you can you will see that Armani is a player to watch in the future and I will not be surprised if he wins in SPL when he will play.
On January 18 2014 23:39 Zealously wrote: The point of balance is that it doesn't just apply when it suits you. If a match-up is imbalanced, it'll be imbalanced in Code A just as it will in Proleague and online. You can expand the sample size for a better picture of game balance, and judging from 19 games (at any point is silly. While the argument "Well, only good terrans are beating Protoss players" often comes up (and has since the before last balance patch), Aligulac's enormous sample size indicated no significant balance in December, despite the forums erupting with "TvP is unwinnable". Hell, you can look at the list of all recent tournament results and see if you can dig out some great injustice where a Protoss scrub beat a Code S level Terran. I haven't looked very far back, but I can't exactly find heaps and loads of crazy P > T upsets.
But hey, the match-up may be (slightly) imbalanced - I'm not necessarily saying it isn't. Just don't cherry pick certain tournaments and exclude some players because they're either too good, too bad or because they don't fit the point you're trying to make.
I actually did an analysis of all post-Blizzcon tournament results several weeks ago, right before Proleague started up. So no Proleague and no Code A results counted.
PvT from all premier tournaments with major Korean presence: 136-145, 47%. The numbers look balanced, slightly in Terran favor in fact. It's something you'd expect to see from David Kim. But then you look at the players participating at these events - top top top Terrans show up literally twice as often as top top top Protoss (26 vs. 13). The rest of the Protoss are Code A/B nobodies, but they still manage to win often enough to keep the ratio almost balanced.
This considering that top Protoss really aren't comparable to top Terran IMO. I counted Naniwa, Parting, sOs, Trap among the top tier, and do they honestly measure up to Innovation, Bomber, Maru, Taeja? I don't think many people would say that they do.
So you think some players beating other players aren't good enough to beat those players. Okay.
Isn't that like a cornerstone of balance discussion, though? I mean, it's a given. If I thought that all players who won deserved to win, then I wouldn't really have any reason to think that the game was imbalanced... ;o
When it comes to foreigners, I'm willing to accept that someone like Welmu beating someone like Innovation would be strange, but when it comes to the Korean scene, more often than not, people don't know the players well enough to accurately analyse balance based on who beats who. There are players that are absolute terrors online that fail to make it to Code A, and people who don't research players enough will (logically) interpret that as said player being Code B level and not good enough to beat the Code A/S player in a balanced game. But that's often not the case.
On January 18 2014 23:39 Zealously wrote: The point of balance is that it doesn't just apply when it suits you. If a match-up is imbalanced, it'll be imbalanced in Code A just as it will in Proleague and online. You can expand the sample size for a better picture of game balance, and judging from 19 games (at any point is silly. While the argument "Well, only good terrans are beating Protoss players" often comes up (and has since the before last balance patch), Aligulac's enormous sample size indicated no significant balance in December, despite the forums erupting with "TvP is unwinnable". Hell, you can look at the list of all recent tournament results and see if you can dig out some great injustice where a Protoss scrub beat a Code S level Terran. I haven't looked very far back, but I can't exactly find heaps and loads of crazy P > T upsets.
But hey, the match-up may be (slightly) imbalanced - I'm not necessarily saying it isn't. Just don't cherry pick certain tournaments and exclude some players because they're either too good, too bad or because they don't fit the point you're trying to make.
I actually did an analysis of all post-Blizzcon tournament results several weeks ago, right before Proleague started up. So no Proleague and no Code A results counted.
PvT from all premier tournaments with major Korean presence: 136-145, 47%. The numbers look balanced, slightly in Terran favor in fact. It's something you'd expect to see from David Kim. But then you look at the players participating at these events - top top top Terrans show up literally twice as often as top top top Protoss (26 vs. 13). The rest of the Protoss are Code A/B nobodies, but they still manage to win often enough to keep the ratio almost balanced.
This considering that top Protoss really aren't comparable to top Terran IMO. I counted Naniwa, Parting, sOs, Trap among the top tier, and do they honestly measure up to Innovation, Bomber, Maru, Taeja? I don't think many people would say that they do.
So you think some players beating other players aren't good enough to beat those players. Okay. When it comes to foreigners, I'm willing to accept that someone like Welmu beating someone like Innovation would be strange, but when it comes to the Korean scene, more often than not, people don't know the players well enough to accurately analyse balance based on who beats who. There are players that are absolute terrors online that fail to make it to Code A, and people who don't research players enough will (logically) interpret that as said player being Code B level and not good enough to beat the Code A/S player in a balanced game. But that's often not the case.
Yep pure.Wasted shows that he knows nothing about Code B/A players and makes out INno, Bomber and TaeJa the best players ever existed... The funny moment was when everyone in Korea considered Sniper as a championship calibre player and said he and Life were the best young zergs in Korea and MVP used Sniper as their ace in almost all teamleagues atm and people on TL were like wtf he played imba race and had won only coz of it :D It really annoyed me then I just stopped reading comments coz it was always like wtf how this noname korean guy won this event etc...
Also an example: Interview with Solar
Anything else you would like to say?
Teammate Armani disappointingly failed to make it through the qualifiers. But I have a feeling that he will see the light soon because he is such a great player. Lastly, I hope that all my teammates can advance through the qualifiers.
Can you read between? If you can you will see that Armani is a player to watch in the future and I will not be surprised if he wins in SPL when he will play.
Those are very reasonable points, guys. Thing is, I'm one of those silly nerds who thinks that if you're not capable of playing three 30-minute macro games to win a BO3, you're not a great player. And if you're not a great player, you don't deserve to go to Code S. You might be a player who knows great timings (that either you figured out through your own genius or they're just universally known and difficult to stop and more difficult to punish, see: Blink all in), but you're not a great player. What you did does not show utter domination of the sort I expect from Code S top 16 caliber players, it shows riding patch-trends that come and go, for which I have little to no respect. A balanced game is one where skill is equally rewarded, and I don't see skill (as I define it, I'm guessing you guys will disagree) being rewarded.
That thing about Solar talking about Armani is nice and all, except when's the last time a Zerg came out of left field and took out MMA, Polt, and Innovation the way Patience did? It just does not happen! Curious, who has had 10x the success of Patience up until HOTS, would never dream of killing MMA, Polt, and Innovation in one night. Maybe during BL/Infestor he could have... y'know, when Zerg were imbalanced. So why the discrepancy? When hyvaa plays non-standard games and wins, Tastosis joke that "evil triumphed." Well what's the difference between hyvaa and 90% of Protoss players? Duckdeok, Patience, JYP, Stardust, herO... hell not even Parting, Squirtle, MC, sOs, Dear, and Trap are above it. They'll all-in 2 games out of 2 with the best of them. What is tongue-in-cheek evil from a Zerg player is actually a regular series for a Protoss.
PvT wasn't balanced when it was mostly Terrans cheesing out Protoss despite DK's unfailing 50-50 winrate, which is why Protoss got the MSC in the first place, and it sure as hell isn't balanced now that it's the reverse amped up to 11. When defending harassment with the MSC takes as much effort as holding off a Blink Stalker all in, then the game might be balanced.
It's been a long night and I think I'm rambling a bit, but I do hope I've been coherent enough.
I'll get to the rest of your post in a while, but yes - Curious would dream of taking out those players. In fact, he wouldnt have to dream of it. His HotS ZvT is astonishingly good, good enough for him to beat Innovation when Innovation was far and away the best player in the world.
On January 19 2014 01:58 Zealously wrote: I'll get to the rest of your post in a while, but yes - Curious would dream of taking out those players. In fact, he wouldnt have to dream of it. His HotS ZvT is astonishingly good, good enough for him to beat Innovation when Innovation was far and away the best player in the world.
Please do go into detail, I haven't seen anything from Curious since he dropped out of Code S. I'm assuming you mean some time after Soulkey and before DRG? But if DRG's success against Innovation came on the heels of Curious already showing that this kind of skill in ZvT is really possible, why was DRG's play so revolutionary? Unless Curious played a completely different, non-Lair centric Zerg? But then... why hasn't it spread?
On January 19 2014 01:58 Zealously wrote: I'll get to the rest of your post in a while, but yes - Curious would dream of taking out those players. In fact, he wouldnt have to dream of it. His HotS ZvT is astonishingly good, good enough for him to beat Innovation when Innovation was far and away the best player in the world.
Please do go into detail, I haven't seen anything from Curious since he dropped out of Code S. I'm assuming you mean some time after Soulkey and before DRG? But if DRG's success against Innovation came on the heels of Curious already showing that this kind of skill in ZvT is really possible, why was DRG's play so revolutionary? Unless Curious played a completely different, non-Lair centric Zerg? But then... why hasn't it spread?
One might say that I'm very... intrigued.
Curious ZvT was one of the best in Korea. And INnoVation is very overrated now. Sorry but from WCS Season 2 and his transfer to Acer he is not a scary opponent in GSL like Soulkey, PartinG or Life anymore, players like Reality, Bbyong or BrAvO are way scarier now.
On January 19 2014 01:58 Zealously wrote: I'll get to the rest of your post in a while, but yes - Curious would dream of taking out those players. In fact, he wouldnt have to dream of it. His HotS ZvT is astonishingly good, good enough for him to beat Innovation when Innovation was far and away the best player in the world.
Please do go into detail, I haven't seen anything from Curious since he dropped out of Code S. I'm assuming you mean some time after Soulkey and before DRG? But if DRG's success against Innovation came on the heels of Curious already showing that this kind of skill in ZvT is really possible, why was DRG's play so revolutionary? Unless Curious played a completely different, non-Lair centric Zerg? But then... why hasn't it spread?
On January 19 2014 01:58 Zealously wrote: I'll get to the rest of your post in a while, but yes - Curious would dream of taking out those players. In fact, he wouldnt have to dream of it. His HotS ZvT is astonishingly good, good enough for him to beat Innovation when Innovation was far and away the best player in the world.
Please do go into detail, I haven't seen anything from Curious since he dropped out of Code S. I'm assuming you mean some time after Soulkey and before DRG? But if DRG's success against Innovation came on the heels of Curious already showing that this kind of skill in ZvT is really possible, why was DRG's play so revolutionary? Unless Curious played a completely different, non-Lair centric Zerg? But then... why hasn't it spread?
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm.
On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed.
On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work.
So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up?
So very conflicted.
edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds.
On January 18 2014 12:07 Kon-Tiki wrote: Hope they axe daedalus point. The map has serious issues
Personally, and especially as a Terran player looking on from the outside of the PvZ woes, I really hope they keep Daedalus. It's led to some amazing innovation - the map pools have all very much conformed to certain styles, and as such creative play has stagnated a lot.
Sure, maybe they can make the ramp a little less wide, but I kind of like the idea that players can't just blindly nexus or forge FE - at least they have to do a bit of scouting. I'm a big proponent of map diversity from a viewing perspective, because it makes players think outside the box. Players like TLO and Boxer were renowned for their creative flair in the early days of WoL, and part of that was because the maps really were more diverse back then - you had Thor Drops on Lost Temple, fast gold rushes on Metalopolis, siege tank lines on the cliffs of Shakuras Plateau.
Sure, maybe the game wasn't fully balanced then - maybe I like the style because I'm Terran and I love mixing play up on the ladder. But you have to admit, it was a lot more interesting watching that than just wondering "is this 2 base 7 gate all-in going to fail or succeed this time?". We're finally beginning to again see the back-and-forth creative builds and on-the-fly counters from maps like Habitation Station and Daedalus point again, from a strategic viewpoint it's a lot more interesting to watch in my opinion.
Agreed. I was reading an old AMA with David Kim (just prior to HOTS release) and he talked about Blizzard wanting greater diversity of maps as maps in 2012 had tended to conform to a set pattern that often encouraged one style for each race per match-up. Now Daedalus Point may be going too far, but when you are trying out things you can't expect to get it right all the time. IMO, the map would be better, even with the massive ramps, if there were some features in the middle of it.
On January 19 2014 01:58 Zealously wrote: I'll get to the rest of your post in a while, but yes - Curious would dream of taking out those players. In fact, he wouldnt have to dream of it. His HotS ZvT is astonishingly good, good enough for him to beat Innovation when Innovation was far and away the best player in the world.
Please do go into detail, I haven't seen anything from Curious since he dropped out of Code S. I'm assuming you mean some time after Soulkey and before DRG? But if DRG's success against Innovation came on the heels of Curious already showing that this kind of skill in ZvT is really possible, why was DRG's play so revolutionary? Unless Curious played a completely different, non-Lair centric Zerg? But then... why hasn't it spread?
this just shows that pure.Wasted really doesn't know what he's talking about.
saying that curious isn't top level is like saying that TY or Bbyong aren't top level. it's jsut plain wrong.
Yeah this entire argument hinges on Patience being completely unknown to you and if you didn't watch GSTL then sure he could be. He also played in daily cups if I remember right (has been a reliable indicator of talent about to shine). This is possible but still it's not like Patience was just a person who didn't even have a semi-pro license in Korea going around destroying pros.
Edit: Just liquibet Prime over KT let me put my hipster glasses on.
I have to say it. I love deadalus point. Finally the map forces pros to be creativ. The same lame strats played thousends of times do not work. And we profit. When there is a way to safe sc2 its new maps. It makes the meta evolve faster forces new strats and brings so much more for the viewer. Proleague is going the right way in that regard. Finally bliz seems to realize it too. Thanks god for deadalus!!
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/GSL/2014/gslscorething.png)
CJ_Bbyong and 
Hurricane (who lost much ground attempting some poor 2-base pressure) and devastating late-game EMPs from Cure, the mech army was able to easily reduce the Protoss army to rubble when the time came for a final engagement. 
Azubu.Symbol punishing a naive attempt to perform the offensive wall with a fast nydus, and 
TheBest has yet to play.
Armani is a player to watch in the future and I will not be surprised if he wins in SPL when he will play.
