EPTSmall samples, bad samples, speculation.
The only argument I'll mention is the incredibly low representation of Terran in the higher rounds of tournaments.
[Code A] Cheers and Jeers - Week end recap - Page 4
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
Small samples, bad samples, speculation. The only argument I'll mention is the incredibly low representation of Terran in the higher rounds of tournaments. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On January 19 2014 00:02 SC2Toastie wrote: Conclusion; there's doubts about PvT Balance but nothing supermajor and nothing around to prove it well. Small samples, bad samples, speculation. The only argument I'll mention is the incredibly low representation of Terran in the higher rounds of tournaments. I did not convince you?  I mean, I know that... we agree... but hypothetically speaking, if you did not already agree, you would not now agree, purely because of me? | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 18 2014 23:55 pure.Wasted wrote: I actually did an analysis of all post-Blizzcon tournament results several weeks ago, right before Proleague started up. So no Proleague and no Code A results counted. PvT from all premier tournaments with major Korean presence: 136-145, 47%. The numbers look balanced, slightly in Terran favor in fact. It's something you'd expect to see from David Kim. But then you look at the players participating at these events - top top top Terrans show up literally twice as often as top top top Protoss (26 vs. 13). The rest of the Protoss are Code A/B nobodies, but they still manage to win often enough to keep the ratio almost balanced. This considering that top Protoss really aren't comparable to top Terran IMO. I counted Naniwa, Parting, sOs, Trap among the top tier, and do they honestly measure up to Innovation, Bomber, Maru, Taeja? I don't think many people would say that they do. Here's the link to the original post. So you think some players beating other players aren't good enough to beat those players. Okay. When it comes to foreigners, I'm willing to accept that someone like Welmu beating someone like Innovation would be strange, but when it comes to the Korean scene, more often than not, people don't know the players well enough to accurately analyse balance based on who beats who. There are players that are absolute terrors online that fail to make it to Code A, and people who don't research players enough will (logically) interpret that as said player being Code B level and not good enough to beat the Code A/S player in a balanced game. But that's often not the case. | ||
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monsta
172 Posts
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DiMano
Korea (South)2066 Posts
On January 19 2014 00:08 Zealously wrote: So you think some players beating other players aren't good enough to beat those players. Okay. When it comes to foreigners, I'm willing to accept that someone like Welmu beating someone like Innovation would be strange, but when it comes to the Korean scene, more often than not, people don't know the players well enough to accurately analyse balance based on who beats who. There are players that are absolute terrors online that fail to make it to Code A, and people who don't research players enough will (logically) interpret that as said player being Code B level and not good enough to beat the Code A/S player in a balanced game. But that's often not the case. Yep pure.Wasted shows that he knows nothing about Code B/A players and makes out INno, Bomber and TaeJa the best players ever existed... The funny moment was when everyone in Korea considered Sniper as a championship calibre player and said he and Life were the best young zergs in Korea and MVP used Sniper as their ace in almost all teamleagues atm and people on TL were like wtf he played imba race and had won only coz of it :D It really annoyed me then I just stopped reading comments coz it was always like wtf how this noname korean guy won this event etc... Also an example: Interview with Solar Anything else you would like to say? Teammate Armani disappointingly failed to make it through the qualifiers. But I have a feeling that he will see the light soon because he is such a great player. Lastly, I hope that all my teammates can advance through the qualifiers. Can you read between? If you can you will see that  Armani is a player to watch in the future and I will not be surprised if he wins in SPL when he will play. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On January 19 2014 00:08 Zealously wrote: So you think some players beating other players aren't good enough to beat those players. Okay. Isn't that like a cornerstone of balance discussion, though? I mean, it's a given. If I thought that all players who won deserved to win, then I wouldn't really have any reason to think that the game was imbalanced... ;o When it comes to foreigners, I'm willing to accept that someone like Welmu beating someone like Innovation would be strange, but when it comes to the Korean scene, more often than not, people don't know the players well enough to accurately analyse balance based on who beats who. There are players that are absolute terrors online that fail to make it to Code A, and people who don't research players enough will (logically) interpret that as said player being Code B level and not good enough to beat the Code A/S player in a balanced game. But that's often not the case. On January 19 2014 01:05 DiMano wrote: Yep pure.Wasted shows that he knows nothing about Code B/A players and makes out INno, Bomber and TaeJa the best players ever existed... The funny moment was when everyone in Korea considered Sniper as a championship calibre player and said he and Life were the best young zergs in Korea and MVP used Sniper as their ace in almost all teamleagues atm and people on TL were like wtf he played imba race and had won only coz of it :D It really annoyed me then I just stopped reading comments coz it was always like wtf how this noname korean guy won this event etc... Also an example: Interview with Solar Anything else you would like to say? Teammate Armani disappointingly failed to make it through the qualifiers. But I have a feeling that he will see the light soon because he is such a great player. Lastly, I hope that all my teammates can advance through the qualifiers. Can you read between? If you can you will see that Armani is a player to watch in the future and I will not be surprised if he wins in SPL when he will play.Those are very reasonable points, guys. Thing is, I'm one of those silly nerds who thinks that if you're not capable of playing three 30-minute macro games to win a BO3, you're not a great player. And if you're not a great player, you don't deserve to go to Code S. You might be a player who knows great timings (that either you figured out through your own genius or they're just universally known and difficult to stop and more difficult to punish, see: Blink all in), but you're not a great player. What you did does not show utter domination of the sort I expect from Code S top 16 caliber players, it shows riding patch-trends that come and go, for which I have little to no respect. A balanced game is one where skill is equally rewarded, and I don't see skill (as I define it, I'm guessing you guys will disagree) being rewarded. That thing about Solar talking about Armani is nice and all, except when's the last time a Zerg came out of left field and took out MMA, Polt, and Innovation the way Patience did? It just does not happen! Curious, who has had 10x the success of Patience up until HOTS, would never dream of killing MMA, Polt, and Innovation in one night. Maybe during BL/Infestor he could have... y'know, when Zerg were imbalanced. So why the discrepancy? When hyvaa plays non-standard games and wins, Tastosis joke that "evil triumphed." Well what's the difference between hyvaa and 90% of Protoss players? Duckdeok, Patience, JYP, Stardust, herO... hell not even Parting, Squirtle, MC, sOs, Dear, and Trap are above it. They'll all-in 2 games out of 2 with the best of them. What is tongue-in-cheek evil from a Zerg player is actually a regular series for a Protoss. PvT wasn't balanced when it was mostly Terrans cheesing out Protoss despite DK's unfailing 50-50 winrate, which is why Protoss got the MSC in the first place, and it sure as hell isn't balanced now that it's the reverse amped up to 11. When defending harassment with the MSC takes as much effort as holding off a Blink Stalker all in, then the game might be balanced. It's been a long night and I think I'm rambling a bit, but I do hope I've been coherent enough. | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On January 19 2014 01:58 Zealously wrote: I'll get to the rest of your post in a while, but yes - Curious would dream of taking out those players. In fact, he wouldnt have to dream of it. His HotS ZvT is astonishingly good, good enough for him to beat Innovation when Innovation was far and away the best player in the world. Please do go into detail, I haven't seen anything from Curious since he dropped out of Code S. I'm assuming you mean some time after Soulkey and before DRG? But if DRG's success against Innovation came on the heels of Curious already showing that this kind of skill in ZvT is really possible, why was DRG's play so revolutionary? Unless Curious played a completely different, non-Lair centric Zerg? But then... why hasn't it spread? One might say that I'm very... intrigued.  | ||
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DiMano
Korea (South)2066 Posts
On January 19 2014 02:06 pure.Wasted wrote: Please do go into detail, I haven't seen anything from Curious since he dropped out of Code S. I'm assuming you mean some time after Soulkey and before DRG? But if DRG's success against Innovation came on the heels of Curious already showing that this kind of skill in ZvT is really possible, why was DRG's play so revolutionary? Unless Curious played a completely different, non-Lair centric Zerg? But then... why hasn't it spread? One might say that I'm very... intrigued. Curious ZvT was one of the best in Korea. And  INnoVation is very overrated now. Sorry but from WCS Season 2 and his transfer to Acer he is not a scary opponent in GSL like Soulkey, PartinG or Life anymore, players like Reality, Bbyong or BrAvO are way scarier now. | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 19 2014 02:06 pure.Wasted wrote: Please do go into detail, I haven't seen anything from Curious since he dropped out of Code S. I'm assuming you mean some time after Soulkey and before DRG? But if DRG's success against Innovation came on the heels of Curious already showing that this kind of skill in ZvT is really possible, why was DRG's play so revolutionary? Unless Curious played a completely different, non-Lair centric Zerg? But then... why hasn't it spread? One might say that I'm very... intrigued. Curious is the second highest rated Zerg in ZvT, after Life. In HotS, Curious has gone 58-20 in games and 28-7 in matches. | ||
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Tanzklaue
Germany1417 Posts
On January 19 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBknxElVM8Y Curious is the second highest rated Zerg in ZvT, after Life. In HotS, Curious has gone 58-20 in games and 28-7 in matches. this just shows that pure.Wasted really doesn't know what he's talking about. saying that curious isn't top level is like saying that TY or Bbyong aren't top level. it's jsut plain wrong. | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On January 18 2014 13:09 pure.Wasted wrote: New GSL season is shaping up to be actually unwatchable. ZvZ is rarely consistent, ZvP is in the dumps, and PvP has not one but two Protoss in it. Hmmmm. On the one hand, I do want StarCraft to succeed. On the other hand, I also want Blizzard to have no choice whatsoever but to finally realize they done fucked this game up something fierce, so they can fix their shit and make it work. So where does this leave me with Inno vs. 3 Code A/B Protoss coming up? So very conflicted. edit: normally I love Tastosis, but their saccharine love affair with Protoss is just going to be salt rubbing in wounds. I laughed so hard at that :D | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On January 18 2014 12:19 SpunXtain20 wrote: Personally, and especially as a Terran player looking on from the outside of the PvZ woes, I really hope they keep Daedalus. It's led to some amazing innovation - the map pools have all very much conformed to certain styles, and as such creative play has stagnated a lot. Sure, maybe they can make the ramp a little less wide, but I kind of like the idea that players can't just blindly nexus or forge FE - at least they have to do a bit of scouting. I'm a big proponent of map diversity from a viewing perspective, because it makes players think outside the box. Players like TLO and Boxer were renowned for their creative flair in the early days of WoL, and part of that was because the maps really were more diverse back then - you had Thor Drops on Lost Temple, fast gold rushes on Metalopolis, siege tank lines on the cliffs of Shakuras Plateau. Sure, maybe the game wasn't fully balanced then - maybe I like the style because I'm Terran and I love mixing play up on the ladder. But you have to admit, it was a lot more interesting watching that than just wondering "is this 2 base 7 gate all-in going to fail or succeed this time?". We're finally beginning to again see the back-and-forth creative builds and on-the-fly counters from maps like Habitation Station and Daedalus point again, from a strategic viewpoint it's a lot more interesting to watch in my opinion. Agreed. I was reading an old AMA with David Kim (just prior to HOTS release) and he talked about Blizzard wanting greater diversity of maps as maps in 2012 had tended to conform to a set pattern that often encouraged one style for each race per match-up. Now Daedalus Point may be going too far, but when you are trying out things you can't expect to get it right all the time. IMO, the map would be better, even with the massive ramps, if there were some features in the middle of it. | ||
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EpicDemente
Chile202 Posts
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Tinzu
26 Posts
On January 19 2014 05:18 Tanzklaue wrote: this just shows that pure.Wasted really doesn't know what he's talking about. saying that curious isn't top level is like saying that TY or Bbyong aren't top level. it's jsut plain wrong. Yeah this entire argument hinges on Patience being completely unknown to you and if you didn't watch GSTL then sure he could be. He also played in daily cups if I remember right (has been a reliable indicator of talent about to shine). This is possible but still it's not like Patience was just a person who didn't even have a semi-pro license in Korea going around destroying pros. Edit: Just liquibet Prime over KT let me put my hipster glasses on. | ||
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qiza
Germany37 Posts
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