EPTStarbow - Page 297
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starslayer
United States696 Posts
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On May 31 2014 08:59 blade55555 wrote: LOL this post is just so wrong. Man you should really learn sc2 before saying something so completely false. well I have stopped playing hots about a year ago (masterish level). but I know that was how sc2 was back then or at least how I perfieved it to be. care to elaborate where I am wrong or do you just leave it be with this dumb comment with no argument at all? god tl was once a good place where you could have good discussions about things -.- | ||
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GiveMeCake
148 Posts
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ETisME
12861 Posts
On June 01 2014 18:20 404AlphaSquad wrote: well I have stopped playing hots about a year ago (masterish level). but I know that was how sc2 was back then or at least how I perfieved it to be. care to elaborate where I am wrong or do you just leave it be with this dumb comment with no argument at all? god tl was once a good place where you could have good discussions about things -.- Isn't it quite obvious? Swarmhost problem is a problem of swarmhost, not free unit. Even then, saying free unit means no risk engagement is a terrible statement. Guess why protoss uses double warp prism harass, exactly because zerg is immobile when going swarmhost style and harder to defend harass and secure bases? There is a reason why broodlords also went out of style in ZvT We should be expecting users to post higher quality debate instead of giving out dumb statement such as yours. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On June 01 2014 18:34 GiveMeCake wrote: I'm not a fan of beta testing anymore, I'm waiting for the official release so I can finally play this game again. Sure, but let me point out that changes now are much less drastic than they used to be. It is slowly converging towards a good, stable game. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Agree on the terran unit Dunno about the zerg unit. You wanna make hydras tier2 and make this new unit tier1? Zerg needs a unit can fight mech and protoss deathball lategame. Dont know what you want with the tier1 unit? I know of one unit that can fit terran actually. Atleast the concept. I know of one unit that can fit protoss to actually. Atleast the concept. Wouldnt hurt imo to give existing units some consistent abilities. Talking quality abilities, none-gimmick that lets opponent have a say about it to. | ||
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Capresis
United States518 Posts
I would love for Z to have a new t1 unit. Something that could make Tier 1 Zerg aggression a little more exciting. I liked the baneling because they accomplished this decently well. I'm not sure about where Terran bio stands though: TvT, marine tank might be viable, but I have not tried it, nor seen it tried, in quite a while. TvP, bio feels really gimmicky due to all the counters P has access to. I think other T's have more experience with this though. TvZ, bio is feeling weaker and weaker the more I play, ha. But my mechanics might just not be good enough to make them good. A unit that enhances T's ability to go bio might be nice... Or it might break the game. We might want to experiment more with bio before we do that? I don't know how other Terrans feel, but late game TvP (where I'm mech, ofc) feels so easy for me. When comparing to Brood War, there are lots of small differences that add up to make TvP a lot easier late game. One is that it's a lot easier for T to control the ball, another is buildings all being wall-tight. Another is it feels a LOT easier for T to take a 3rd and get to late game much faster. Also conversely, it seems a lot harder for P to take his 3rd. And 'harassing' with 30 vultures late game is pretty easy and effective. So I might agree with P getting something to help them with late game mech. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
What he said was a unit that can combo either bio or mech, that isnt just another marauder type. I think you may have misunderstood. | ||
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HeyImFinn
United States250 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
Another is it feels a LOT easier for T to take a 3rd and get to late game much faster. Juding by your match history you haven't played macrogames since reactor removal vs protosses. Post-patch it has become a ton easier for protoss to take multiple bases a lot faster and gain a signficiant econ lead. Prepatch heavy Vulture play was really dominant in midgame and while perhaps easier to execute than to play against, I think it's important to remember hat Spider Mines + Vulture harass is basically the only mechanically challenging aspect related to playing protoss in TvP. I remember finding all other aspect about playng protoss relatively easy. I don't think you can actually get 30 Vultures anymore. Previously you could do it in the midgame and delay opponents expansion. Now it takes a lot longer time to get that Vulture count up, and late game when toss can afford to have enough cannons up (with chrono boost) at each base, they are IMO pretty medicore. BW TvP is pretty stale (aka boring) in the midgame, and unfortunately I believe that's where Starbow is going towards. And 'harassing' with 30 vultures late game is pretty easy and effective. So I might agree with P getting something to help them with late game mech. I don't think you wanna get Vultures in that mass late game either. The Scout threat is very really and you need to dumb Minerals into turrets and Goliaths. I think it's better to just have enough Vultures to plant strategically placed Mines and to be safe vs Zealots during battles. Chronoed Cannons kill Vultures like 70% faster than in BW, so I don't really think Vulture harass late game is really that much of a thing. I can understand the reasoning for 70HP Vultures and reactor removal, but god was it more fun to play when you had a really strong harass unit. I would want 80HP vultures back and then instead slower projectile speed and perhaps larger model size in order to make it scale worse, so Vultures in low-to midsized numbers become closer in balance to its BW counterpart. Late game TvP is still really fun to play though. @ TvZ While I am at it, I think I might also give some comments on how I see the other matchups after having played Starbow for 2 weeks now after a 2 month break. As a terran player, early game is quite fun since you have a trillion aggressive option. But I don't think its fair at all for the zerg player. Reapers doesn't interact very well at all game vs zergs and I still don't think a Banshee should be able to take out a Queen 1on1 without cloaking. Zerg does, however have by far the best scouting in the game in the 25/25 overseer so experienced zerg players who knows how to react can still come out of early game against the various terran option in reasonable shape, but I still feel like changes must be made here. I don't think Viking interacts well vs Zerg. I feel like it's just a unit that is pretty mediocore in low numbers, but rape Spire units in critical mass. I would prefer to see it be changed to single-target instead of splash. Irradiate has splash, Vikings don't need that. I played some games I consider to be resonable fun over the last 2 weeks in this matchup, but that's because I just abused Banshee's early game --> Gets a big lead --> Can do w/e I want in the midgame. I imagine if zerg knows what they are doing, it become pretty passive in midgame (as BW mech was). Relative to BW, it makes sense if mech is very terran favored as terran early game/early midgame is like 10 times better here than in BW. This is a bit unfortunate, becasue if the mech/air/heavy Vulture compostion had a higher harass viability (but lower cost efficiency) it could be incredibly fun to play and watch. Bio play - Never liked this in Starbow. It simply seems to be a ton of 1a + a lot of spammed Irradiates. Now post Matrix-buff it also includes a ton of Matrix-spam. I consider neither ability to be particularly fun. But other people seems fine with it. @ TvT Solid matchup. Some issues still exist with unit interactions though: Like Vikings > Countering Banshees too hard. It's very multitaskbased, but it's not nearly as good as I previously perceived it. For once, it's simply too Goliath-intensive in the midgame, which makes the dropplay that we saw alot of earlier in the Starbow career much more seldomly. When playing against Goliath/Tank you can't really counter dropplay by dropplay which is what previously made me love this mathcup. So as the meta develops here, I think TvT in Starbow will gradually become more stale. I have to admit that I actally think Sc2 TvT is better matchup for two reasons; 1) Two compositions work in that mathcup (bio and mech) 2) Overall TvT in Starbow doens't really have that much micro. Sc2 perhaps has slightly less multitasking (in an average TvT), but more micro. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
As terran you need to do attacks everywhere. You will even need to split your SVs up against good zergs. Zergs will also attack everywhere with small unit wise->DS,lurk,ling or a mix of those. Terran will drop as much as possible while still fighting with bio. I really like tvz if u are playing against a good zerg and u play good yourself. @tvt You can still use heavy dropship play versus goliath/tank. Its still about position. Vulture is quite heavy nerf i feel. 2tank shots instead of 3. Pre patch in tvt, a while back now but i didnt use reactor but still pumped up heavy vulture. I think vulture can work there if that unit get "fixed", but all in all its still very dropheavy. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
As terran you need to do attacks everywhere. You will even need to split your SVs up against good zergs. I was only thinking about midgame here with bio. Late game is obviously pretty hard when zerg can make runby's. But late game is also really good when you go mech. You can still use heavy dropship play versus goliath/tank. Its still about position. You can, but I no longer feel that this is the crazy multitaskbased games where drops happened every single second with mutliple small battles all over the place. Like we kinda saw in some of the old games, like Dragon vs Beastyqt and Innovation vs Ryung. I feel it has become more slower-paced now with the occational drop here and there. It's still a solid matchup, but just doesn't produce as many epic games as I prevously thought i did. Compared to Marine/Tank vs Marine/Tank in Sc2, I just feel there is a bit more micro in SC2. Starbow's advantage to Sc2 feels like the same as in BW where you can have these really cool late game with players having spread their armies out all over the map. But I would have hoped Starbow had done a much better job of making midgame (and early game) much more enjoyable as well. I guess that's why I kinda disagree a bit when Xipihas states Starbow has slowed down in pathing as that implies that Starbow has come closer to its goal. As I see it, Starbow isn't anywherer closer to its goal than it was 2 6 months ago (besides bugfixings and small balance tweaks). It still hasn't succesfully added any real extra dimension relative to BW, which I feel at this point in time is quite dissapointing. 2tank shots instead of 3. Pre patch in tvt, a while back now but i didnt use reactor but still pumped up heavy vulture. I think vulture can work there if that unit get "fixed", but all in all its still very dropheavy. Making the matchup more Vulture heavy and less Goliath heavy would definitely make it a ton more enjoyable (80 HP Vultures please.  ) | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
It still hasn't succesfully added any real extra dimension relative to BW, which I feel at this point in time is quite dissapointing. Ye, agree @tvt Hard to know for me which players you are watching. I think its a matter of skill here. Two lesser players will never play a heavy multitasked game. I havent watched much tvt but logicwise the dropplay is more encouraging here over broodwar. A solid/good terran player will always look for a whole in the defence. While taking heavy expansions->puts pressure on opponent +eco ->leads to more open flow->dropplay good When i say heavy expansion iam talking zerg style here. You wanna expand ALOT in tvt. Doing all this stuff with a really good tempo(moving your dropships none-stop etc) SC2 marine/tank to me feels all about the number. I rly dislike it. I was only thinking about midgame here with bio. Late game is obviously pretty hard when zerg can make runby's. But late game is also really good when you go mech. What runbies? To your main? Just block your choke with supply depots. Dont like blocking natural cuz lurkers eat those. If you mean runbies to your expansions. Spread your bio forces is a must lategame. Some units defend, some units zone, some units attack. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
I think its a matter of skill here. Two lesser players will never play a heavy multitasked game. I only played TvT games with Capricous and Scaphism. Probably like 7-10 "macro"-games each vs both of them. I just felt that the more I learned about TvT from those games (low sample ofc), the more it felt like I should be Goliath Heavy in midgame and only use Vultures as a mineral-dumb, and against a player that has a decent turret ring + Goliaths + scans a lot, it's just not that obvious to find situations where you wanna drop. In most of the games I actually just ran around with dropships along with my army, but simply just still ended up doing a normal attack (at the weak point of the enemy). It seems like the difference between a TvT player with good control and someone with lesser control is that the better control player can position his army in such a way that he isn't vulnerable to the enemy doing a doom drop while at the same time making it difficult for the enemy to secure his expansions. I guess the impact of speedbost on Dropships is more the indrect thread of drops which forces the opponent to waste in dropdefense and spread himself a bit. But BW was also "just" the occational doom-drop (prior to the Wraith-phase) based on watching some of the old Fantasy vs Flash games. It wasn't like constant action either as we saw in ealier Starbow. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Some games were insane with their drops. Old ones. Iam talking higher level than innovation vs ryung. Better than the best starbow tvt match easy. EDIT: When i think about it. Broodwar feels more paced than starbow. Not sure why, maybe the 7% reduction has an effect. We get slower income. Hm. Something along those lines. Maybe revert it tbh. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
Another thing: Vultures may also function as the mobile option in BW (getting from A to B really fast), while Speed-drops in some situations fulfill that role as well. That could also be a part of the explanation for why Vultures just don't seem that important in the matchup. I also really dislike the 7% speed nerf. I think overall it simply makes the game easier as less stuff happen on the same amount of time. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Well, you should drop tanks there with your vults. To wreck those goliaths. Thats probably a factor why vults are so good in bw. Cheaper than gols and no gas. More tanks. And nice defend to with spidermines+turrets vs drops. And just spidermines in general(the bw mines, not the starbow  )Then combo it well. Anyway, i need to test more tvt in starbow. But on paper vult seem weak right now. Even the spidermines feel somewhat off. The link doesnt work btw EDIT: Something else that maybe slows the game down abit is all these new threats. For example, in tvp u are forced to think about stargate->get a blind goliath, maybe extra turrets. Slow down your third. While in broodwar it was more straightforward. More "clean" gameplay in the opening. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On June 02 2014 07:26 Foxxan wrote: Hmm. Well, you should drop tanks there with your vults. To wreck those goliaths. Ye Since dropships are so good in Starbow, you typically put Tanks and Goliaths inside dropships and drop them inside the opponents base (assuming it's possible). And then if there are enough goliaths on top of tanks, the enemy can't really drop on top of it. If you instead dropped Vultures and Tanks, it's a ton easier to just counterdrop on top of it. But that Goliath-meta kinda also functions as a doubleedged sword, because Goliaths are also really efficient at preventing dropship harass from ever ocurring (if you have lots of them at least) while preventing Vulture harass. Overall, they aren't that bad in larger battles either. | ||
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