I meant you drop tanks while you harass with vultures. Now he cant defend with goliaths purely.
Ye Since dropships are so good in Starbow, you typically put Tanks and Goliaths inside dropships and drop them inside the opponents base (assuming it's possible). And then if there are enough goliaths on top of tanks, the enemy can't really drop on top of it. If you instead dropped Vultures and Tanks, it's a ton easier to just counterdrop on top of it.
But that Goliath-meta kinda also fucntions as a doubleedged sword, because Goliaths are also really efficient at preventing dropship harass from ever ocurring (if you have lots of them at least) while preventing Vulture harass. Overall, they aren't that bad in larger battles either.
When the guy drops gols/tanks. You can still drop at his armee. Dropping his armee+walking with some ground units. If he has like 85% goliath and 15% tank. Then dont drop, just kill his armee with your ground force.
When you drop vult/tank in his main. Are you spreading your tanks? Laying mines infront etc? The vult/tank player has more mobility and zone power. Walks the map easier. I actually think this can be better than gol/tank if the vult gets fixed.
Well, it seems vultures are dominant in late broodwar. Goliath pretty much died i feel in broodwar(not watching much lately tho)
I meant you drop tanks while you harass with vultures. Now he cant defend with goliaths purely.
As long as your on 4 bases or less + it's somewhat even, I think that's easily countered actually. Your goliaths can a-move defend against Vultures as long as you scan so you dont lose to mines. To counter the siege tank drop, you just drop your own Siege Tanks on top of that. In the proces the aggressive dropping terran player likely also losses some dropships at least to Turrets.
I think it's better to play a bit more patient game with dropships. Try and position a big part of your army somewhat in a strategical well thought out position where you can easily react to seeing your opponent dropping you, and if you see your opponent trying to reallocate his army to a new location or trying to secure a new expansion you can use the dropship as a fast transporter so you can get to the new key location really fast. That can help it making it more difficult for the enemy to secure his new expansions.
You said that when you try and harass the terran opponent at 3-4 base. He just defends it easily with goliaths. Add some tanks, either by drop or walking and it will look different.
Further, dropping tanks onto tanks are not very good against spread out tanks. It also probably mean that you have more tanks than him since u went vults while he went goliaths.
On June 02 2014 01:27 Foxxan wrote: Agree on the protoss unit Agree on the terran unit
Dunno about the zerg unit. You wanna make hydras tier2 and make this new unit tier1?
Zerg needs a unit can fight mech and protoss deathball lategame. Dont know what you want with the tier1 unit?
I know of one unit that can fit terran actually. Atleast the concept. I know of one unit that can fit protoss to actually. Atleast the concept.
Wouldnt hurt imo to give existing units some consistent abilities. Talking quality abilities, none-gimmick that lets opponent have a say about it to.
Very much this, Each race needs about 1 interesting unit that fill the roles Foxxan lists. It really feels that there are some gaping holes in unit compositions that leaves things uninteresting at different stages of the game.
With the economy and unit spreading etc of the mod it would be a shame if the game remained in the current state design wise.
On June 02 2014 01:27 Foxxan wrote: Agree on the protoss unit Agree on the terran unit
Dunno about the zerg unit. You wanna make hydras tier2 and make this new unit tier1?
Zerg needs a unit can fight mech and protoss deathball lategame. Dont know what you want with the tier1 unit?
I know of one unit that can fit terran actually. Atleast the concept. I know of one unit that can fit protoss to actually. Atleast the concept.
Wouldnt hurt imo to give existing units some consistent abilities. Talking quality abilities, none-gimmick that lets opponent have a say about it to.
Very much this, Each race needs about 1 interesting unit that fill the roles Foxxan lists. It really feels that there are some gaping holes in unit compositions that leaves things uninteresting at different stages of the game.
With the economy and unit spreading etc of the mod it would be a shame if the game remained in the current state design wise.
I think we are just never gonna have that fun microinteractions in Starbow if it takes like 3 months on a forum agreeing on a change/new unit/new ability and then one guy spends 5 minutes in the editor adding the new change.
At least that's the proces that Starbow has used over the last two years and it has prooved to not work at all.
The proces must be changed to something like this instead; 1) Start in the editor. Try and tweak all possible values of some the units/abilities that don't feel fun. 2) Slowly you start to see which type of variables makes sense to tweak for this specific unit in relation to the role the unit should fulfill 3) Fine-tune the variables untill you get just right the right interaction. 4) Make sure micro is actually efficient/rewarded with the new unit + make sure the enemy can efifciently countermicro against it. 5) Make some balance-tests/adjustments where you see how cost-effective the unit is in various situations. The quality of this proces is ofc of limited quality since your just one player micro'ing two armies, however, it's definitely better than not doing any tests at all. 6) Next step is to upload on a test map and invite some other guys for the dev-team to test it (both a real map and a unit tester map preferreably) 7) Get feedback and tweak stats/perhaps just abandon the idea if it doesn't work out 8) If it works well/positive feedback, then it can be implemented.
By starting in the editor, one makes sure that the least amount of time is spent on terrible ideas that never has any fun micro interaction, and before a change is added to the test map, it has been verfiied that the idea at least has some type of micro potential.
Further, by spending enough time in the editor on a new idea and making balance-tests before uploading them to the test map, the worst balance-problems can be avoided. That can be important as balance-issues sometimes can distort testers from coming up with a fair judgment of whether the new unit/ability is fun or not.
Another advantage is that it helps creativity a lot when you spend time in the editor. At least I find my self constantly coming up with new ideas because all the variables you can tweak on are just there in front of you. It often happens that I have this type of conversation with my self: "oh, what would happen if I tweak this variable. Hmm, X happened, maybe that could work out if I also tweak Y... Hmm there is some potential there, then if I change this other units stats to Z, this adds a new type of micro interaction here. "
Great post Hider. I wish I had the ability to do stuff in the editor to help you guys, but alas - I don't have a copy of SC2 anymore (Or a good enough computer to justify buying it atm).
I can say this though. I think it will be a good idea to try out completely new and original value setups; not just copy-paste of BW setups. Try going mad with some random value, then adjusting all the other values until the tested unit is balanced and controllable again. I think we are starting ot get to the point where StarBow can truely divirsify and try new things. We have a fairly solid template, and the editor knowhow to do incredible things - now we just need to use it.
Regardless of the method, if you like what hider wrote or not doing testmaps with crazy stuff is free and should be done much more rapidly which would in turn speed up the development process.
no it only slows down developpement. We dont have like Blizzard studios at our disposal to test out every idea someone comes up with in the forum. We look at the game and think about what needs fixing, tweaking, or see if a unit doesnt work how we want it to and redesign it completely specifically. and then we create testmaps to look if it might work before releasing it in a real patch. The time to come up with too crazy ideas is over because we are in Beta and not in Alpha anymore. It is time to polish the game and release it some day. New crazy ideas need implementation, much testing, and even when it doesnt work it needs tweaking, changing and may then only be discarded at the end. that takes time. Noone stops anyone to make their own ideas in the editor and trying stuf out.
On June 02 2014 18:26 404AlphaSquad wrote: no it only slows down developpement. We dont have like Blizzard studios at our disposal to test out every idea someone comes up with in the forum. We look at the game and think about what needs fixing, tweaking, or see if a unit doesnt work how we want it to and redesign it completely specifically. and then we create testmaps to look if it might work before releasing it in a real patch. The time to come up with too crazy ideas is over because we are in Beta and not in Alpha anymore. It is time to polish the game and release it some day. New crazy ideas need implementation, much testing, and even when it doesnt work it needs tweaking, changing and may then only be discarded at the end. that takes time. Noone stops anyone to make their own ideas in the editor and trying stuf out.
I think the forum discussions should be used for inspiration. I guess like 80-90% of the ideas represented in a forum are bad, but then 10-20% of them has some type of potenital. But I feel like the next step here shouldn't be using a month to discuss whether that idea should be added or not. But simply have one guy from the dev-team spend 2-5 hours in the editor trying to make something work from that idea. Then it can be tested and then playtesters can start discussing the idea.
So basically, my motto here is: "Action should come before talking".
and then we create testmaps to look if it might work before releasing it in a real patch
This sentence I believe is a good example of the methodology I don't like about Starbow. Bascially, the idea is here being "refined" by theoretical discussions and not in a more practical environment (the editor).
Instead of spending time refining units/abilities, everything becomes more black and white. Either a change added to the test map seems "positive" and is added to the real map or the change isn't added. In this proces it seems that the version of the concept is maintain over a long period without being refined/adjusted.
I believe that when you see some type of new potential in an idea, then this idea typically needs to be retweaked multiple times. E.g. the idea of Nullward can work, but the current implementation isn't good IMO. The design of the Nullward concept (a Sentinel setting up a trap) is not good/bad in itself, but rather it depends on the execution. To get execution right, however, time must be spent in the editor to make sure micro is rewarded for both the protoss player and his opponent.
Wouldn't it make sense if you guys are willing to reevaluate the whole proces? Starbow was driven by theoretical discussions for 2 years, and I can't look at a single thing where Starbow has done something "objectively" better than in BW (macro mechanics are fun though - but they also have several unintended consequences). From my perspective, it looks as if the deve-team is continuing the old proces with new faces.
@ The Reaper - A time to set a new direction (?)
I think it is generally agreed that this unit doesn't work very well atm, right? The question here is whether we need a month or two of discussions before one idea is being added to the test map, and then later on we risk that it becomes apparent that the new micro interactions aren't fun or actually practical, or alternatily try something else.
If we are to follow these 4 simple rules; 1) The Reaper it self is efficient against some type of unit and ineffective against other types of units 2) The Reapers ability can with micro offset it's weakness against the unit it's normal attack is weak against. 3) It needs to be more forgiving/fun early game to play against than it currently is 4) Ideally, it needs to have more purpose than just early game TvZ,
then we can go right into the editor ASAP and try to make something that feels fun and reward micro. I guess the only thing that needs to be discussed here (before time is spent on the editor) are the general unit design rules. I presented mine above, and I see them as farily non-controversial. So I guess if you can agree on a set of noncontroversial rules (this shouldn't take too long), then the editor-proces - as I described in my previous post - must be started.
played a few games again since forever, had 2 nice games, tvt vs kalevi that took 60 mins, it was my first time on RIde of Valkyries, I like how the map turned out ;> never played it on BW
2nd game just now vs Redbandit offrace °_° I totally lost the "feeling" of the rts, missclicks everywhere. Lifted my Rax too soon and aborted my upgrade <-< totally botched but it was still fun to play ;D
we need to get more players though! wtf the queue times are so high now !
On June 05 2014 04:48 Daumen wrote: played a few games again since forever, had 2 nice games, tvt vs kalevi that took 60 mins, it was my first time on RIde of Valkyries, I like how the map turned out ;> never played it on BW
2nd game just now vs Redbandit offrace °_° I totally lost the "feeling" of the rts, missclicks everywhere. Lifted my Rax too soon and aborted my upgrade <-< totally botched but it was still fun to play ;D
we need to get more players though! wtf the queue times are so high now !
I came back recently too cause they had a ladder night on Saturday, it was pretty fun. It was really easy to find games and felt like how it was in January/February when the mod was really popular and the channel had 80 people in it all the time.
Hopefully they do more nights like that. A lot of people enjoy the game, they just don't play it because it can be frustrating trying to find games. I know simple logic is that if everyone in that situation would play then it would be easy to find games, but people don't always think like that.
On June 05 2014 04:48 Daumen wrote: played a few games again since forever, had 2 nice games, tvt vs kalevi that took 60 mins, it was my first time on RIde of Valkyries, I like how the map turned out ;> never played it on BW
2nd game just now vs Redbandit offrace °_° I totally lost the "feeling" of the rts, missclicks everywhere. Lifted my Rax too soon and aborted my upgrade <-< totally botched but it was still fun to play ;D
we need to get more players though! wtf the queue times are so high now !
I came back recently too cause they had a ladder night on Saturday, it was pretty fun. It was really easy to find games and felt like how it was in January/February when the mod was really popular and the channel had 80 people in it all the time.
Hopefully they do more nights like that. A lot of people enjoy the game, they just don't play it because it can be frustrating trying to find games. I know simple logic is that if everyone in that situation would play then it would be easy to find games, but people don't always think like that.
Need another Ladder night...
As of today every Saturday is Starbow day... in my dreams :<
On June 05 2014 04:48 Daumen wrote: played a few games again since forever, had 2 nice games, tvt vs kalevi that took 60 mins, it was my first time on RIde of Valkyries, I like how the map turned out ;> never played it on BW
2nd game just now vs Redbandit offrace °_° I totally lost the "feeling" of the rts, missclicks everywhere. Lifted my Rax too soon and aborted my upgrade <-< totally botched but it was still fun to play ;D
we need to get more players though! wtf the queue times are so high now !
I came back recently too cause they had a ladder night on Saturday, it was pretty fun. It was really easy to find games and felt like how it was in January/February when the mod was really popular and the channel had 80 people in it all the time.
Hopefully they do more nights like that. A lot of people enjoy the game, they just don't play it because it can be frustrating trying to find games. I know simple logic is that if everyone in that situation would play then it would be easy to find games, but people don't always think like that.
Need another Ladder night...
As of today every Saturday is Starbow day... in my dreams :<
I think simply declaring Saturdays to be StarBow days is a great idea. If we all make a particular effort to be on ladder Saturdays, then the number of people queueing on Saturdays will go up, and thus more people will be motivated to find time on Saturdays to ladder.
On June 05 2014 04:48 Daumen wrote: played a few games again since forever, had 2 nice games, tvt vs kalevi that took 60 mins, it was my first time on RIde of Valkyries, I like how the map turned out ;> never played it on BW
2nd game just now vs Redbandit offrace °_° I totally lost the "feeling" of the rts, missclicks everywhere. Lifted my Rax too soon and aborted my upgrade <-< totally botched but it was still fun to play ;D
we need to get more players though! wtf the queue times are so high now !
I came back recently too cause they had a ladder night on Saturday, it was pretty fun. It was really easy to find games and felt like how it was in January/February when the mod was really popular and the channel had 80 people in it all the time.
Hopefully they do more nights like that. A lot of people enjoy the game, they just don't play it because it can be frustrating trying to find games. I know simple logic is that if everyone in that situation would play then it would be easy to find games, but people don't always think like that.
Need another Ladder night...
As of today every Saturday is Starbow day... in my dreams :<
I think simply declaring Saturdays to be StarBow days is a great idea. If we all make a particular effort to be on ladder Saturdays, then the number of people queueing on Saturdays will go up, and thus more people will be motivated to find time on Saturdays to ladder.
if ppl would actually do that, that'd be awesome. but i doubt it, there are usually lots of interesting streams etc going on on weekends
EPT
