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Starbow - Page 111

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Hicky
Profile Joined January 2012
2 Posts
January 21 2014 18:04 GMT
#2201
I really like the mod, but on a viewer perspective I recommend to change the Nexus model, when upgraded to Khaydarin Citadel. I would take the Mothership core instead of that watchtower, like it was originally intended by Blizzard for Hots.
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-21 18:06:58
January 21 2014 18:06 GMT
#2202

On January 22 2014 03:04 Aveng3r wrote:
Its so nice to see changes that actually address imbalances or design flaws instead of the usual David Kim bullshit "oh the oracle isnt microable enough so we increased its speed"

I dont quite understand what the damage point change refers to though


Damage point = how fast the weapon deals damage after the animation starts. So 0 dmg = instant damage = more micro-able unit.
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9378 Posts
January 21 2014 18:10 GMT
#2203
On January 22 2014 03:03 mishimaBeef wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2014 02:47 Hider wrote:
One comment on how we balance the game: As long as there is no apparent reason for not using BW values, we will use BW values as closely as possible. The reason for this is that we do not have a huge statistical database w/ numbers and are not fulltimed employed w/ Starbow. So in order to make life as "easiest" as possible for us, we rely on BW as the core game to balance it.

That doesn't mean we are going into full BW-numbers for everything. For instance, Medi still heals slower than in BW, Stim is still worse than in BW, so bio won't be as cost-effective in all situations as in BW if you just a-move. However, we are attempting to balance bio here by making it more microable.
As we realized that the Firebats was kinda hard to micro (and a bit weak as well), we chose to reduce its damage point. We also thoughts that losing all your Medi's after a battle didn't create the correct incentives for bio as it created a high risk for moving out on the map/attacking, which often times resulted in slightly passive games. We hope that these changes will make bio TvZ a bit more balanced, a bit more aggressive and more microintensive as well.


This is a good philosophy. Emulate BW but try to improve on parts. So far so good with medic stim.


Yes, worth pointing out with bio is that Marines are (already) like Sc2-Marines. You can kite them and split with them alot easier. In BW they had to stand still for a period while shotting, which IMO made them less awesome. Sc2 Marine is probably one of the most popular units, so we saw no reason to not put it into the game. But ofc it had to come at the expense at slightly less cost efficiency.
dani`
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands2402 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-21 18:13:35
January 21 2014 18:11 GMT
#2204
By the way, the tooltip of Stim on the Medic says it drains 10 health points instead of 10 energy. It does indeed just drain 10 energy of course

[image loading]
nucLeaRTV
Profile Joined May 2011
Romania822 Posts
January 21 2014 18:45 GMT
#2205
Why noy 1.337 instead of 1.373 ?
"Having your own haters means you are famous"
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25270 Posts
January 21 2014 18:48 GMT
#2206
On January 22 2014 03:04 Hicky wrote:
I really like the mod, but on a viewer perspective I recommend to change the Nexus model, when upgraded to Khaydarin Citadel. I would take the Mothership core instead of that watchtower, like it was originally intended by Blizzard for Hots.

Like it was in the Beta? Good suggestion man
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Polygamy
Profile Joined January 2010
Austria1114 Posts
January 21 2014 18:51 GMT
#2207
It would be great to get a stream sidebar that shows Starbow as it's own section.
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10009 Posts
January 21 2014 19:13 GMT
#2208
medic's getting stim is a pretty bad change imo, it makes the game easier to play for t. all they need to do now is have all their bio on 1 hotkey and press T instead of having 1 key for their rines and another for their medics.. its a pretty counter-intuitive change if were trying to raise the skillcap of the game

on top of that T is already much stronger in starbow because both their mech and bio is viable vs protoss.. plus they have chrono boost tt
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
January 21 2014 19:16 GMT
#2209
On January 22 2014 04:13 TT1 wrote:
medic's getting stim is a pretty bad change imo, it makes the game easier to play for t. all they need to do now is have all their bio on 1 hotkey and press T instead of having 1 key for their rines and another for their medics.. its a pretty counter-intuitive change if were trying to raise the skillcap of the game

on top of that T is already much stronger in starbow because both their mech and bio is viable vs protoss.. plus they have chrono boost tt

T has chronoboost in Starbow? :S
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
Deleted User 97295
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1137 Posts
January 21 2014 19:17 GMT
#2210
--- Nuked ---
saltis
Profile Joined September 2012
159 Posts
January 21 2014 19:22 GMT
#2211
On January 22 2014 04:13 TT1 wrote:
medic's getting stim is a pretty bad change imo, it makes the game easier to play for t. all they need to do now is have all their bio on 1 hotkey and press T instead of having 1 key for their rines and another for their medics.. its a pretty counter-intuitive change if were trying to raise the skillcap of the game

on top of that T is already much stronger in starbow because both their mech and bio is viable vs protoss.. plus they have chrono boost tt


This +1,
removing skill cap is downside and should be avoided.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9378 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-21 19:28:10
January 21 2014 19:25 GMT
#2212
On January 22 2014 04:13 TT1 wrote:
medic's getting stim is a pretty bad change imo, it makes the game easier to play for t. all they need to do now is have all their bio on 1 hotkey and press T instead of having 1 key for their rines and another for their medics.. its a pretty counter-intuitive change if were trying to raise the skillcap of the game

on top of that T is already much stronger in starbow because both their mech and bio is viable vs protoss.. plus they have chrono boost tt


Why would you have Medic and bio in seperate hotkeys prepatch? I played quite a bit with bio and never found that neccasary.
Right now, its actually reverse. You do not want to always stim with Medis since it drains energy (and only buffs movement speed). During battles, you often times want to keep them unstimmed. Though ofcourse you can manually "stim" some Medis to save them from dead. Further, as game progresses and medi researches Matrix, getting it in a seperate control group is also very beneficial anyway.


plus they have chrono boost tt


Just like protoss.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
January 21 2014 19:26 GMT
#2213
On January 22 2014 04:22 saltis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2014 04:13 TT1 wrote:
medic's getting stim is a pretty bad change imo, it makes the game easier to play for t. all they need to do now is have all their bio on 1 hotkey and press T instead of having 1 key for their rines and another for their medics.. its a pretty counter-intuitive change if were trying to raise the skillcap of the game

on top of that T is already much stronger in starbow because both their mech and bio is viable vs protoss.. plus they have chrono boost tt


This +1,
removing skill cap is downside and should be avoided.

What if the energy penalty was higher? 10 to 15?
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
invisible.terran
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States280 Posts
January 21 2014 19:29 GMT
#2214
Can you explain the reason behind your decision to increase workers' attack cooldown? IMHO, it limits the potential in early game worker micro.
"Until the very very top, in almost anything, all that matters is how much work you put in, the only problem is most people cant work hard even at things they do enjoy, much less things they dont have a real passion for." - Idra
dani`
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands2402 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-21 19:36:49
January 21 2014 19:35 GMT
#2215
On January 22 2014 04:29 invisible.terran wrote:
Can you explain the reason behind your decision to increase workers' attack cooldown? IMHO, it limits the potential in early game worker micro.

It was lowered actually, i.e. they attack faster now, more DPS.
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10009 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-21 19:40:41
January 21 2014 19:37 GMT
#2216
On January 22 2014 04:25 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2014 04:13 TT1 wrote:
medic's getting stim is a pretty bad change imo, it makes the game easier to play for t. all they need to do now is have all their bio on 1 hotkey and press T instead of having 1 key for their rines and another for their medics.. its a pretty counter-intuitive change if were trying to raise the skillcap of the game

on top of that T is already much stronger in starbow because both their mech and bio is viable vs protoss.. plus they have chrono boost tt


Why would you have Medic and bio in seperate hotkeys prepatch? I played quite a bit with bio and never found that neccasary.
Right now, its actually reverse. You do not want to always stim with Medis since it drains energy (and only buffs movement speed). During battles, you often times want to keep them unstimmed. Though ofcourse you can manually "stim" some Medis to save them from dead. Further, as game progresses and medi researches Matrix, getting it in a seperate control group is also very beneficial anyway.

Show nested quote +

plus they have chrono boost tt


Just like protoss.


but they have more abilities on top of that ;p, also terran units by design are stronger than protoss units (especially in mech tvp) so chrono benefits them more than protoss

i never played terran prepatch but i assume you wern't able to stim if you had both marines and medics on 1 control group, right? thats why most players usually split them up
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
dgwow
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada1024 Posts
January 21 2014 19:44 GMT
#2217
On January 22 2014 03:51 Polygamy wrote:
It would be great to get a stream sidebar that shows Starbow as it's own section.


Not going to happen yet as mentioned by TL
Don't let those anti-cheese advocates tell you what to do. Rush to meet life head on!
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9378 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-21 20:02:30
January 21 2014 19:49 GMT
#2218
i never played terran prepatch but i assume you wern't able to stim if you had both marines and medics on 1 control group, right? thats why most players usually split them up


You could do that prepatch.

but they have more abilities on top of that ;p, also terran units by design are stronger than protoss units (especially in mech tvp) so chrono benefits them more than protoss


That's actually now how it works. Chrono and overcharge primiarily functions as replacments for extra infastructure. So instead of you having 8 gates in one situation in BW, you can have 6 gates in Starbow and use Chronoboost actively. Since Factory tech is more expensive than Gateways, we took that into account by making overcharge less strong on more expensive infastructure. This means that Gateways/barracks = 100% boost. Factory/Robo/starport/stargate = 50% boost.

So production speed are not imbalanced in that regard. However, there are a few assmmetries, most notably the introoduction of the reactor. We have attempted to take that into account in two ways;

1) Overcharge only lasts 15 seconds. CB lasts 20 seconds.
2) Vulture BT increased relative to BW

That obviously doesn't mean that it is 100% balanced. Espeically in the early and early midgame, macromechanics can have an effect, however, givien observations on the games that are played on higher levels, we do not see any obvious imbalances (yet).
Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
January 21 2014 19:55 GMT
#2219
Guys. GUYS. GUYS! Patch 2.1! Oooooh yeah . BW music time (free arcade for everyone!).
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
[Phantom]
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
Mexico2170 Posts
January 21 2014 20:03 GMT
#2220
I still feel as if they was a void in Tier 2 Protoss respecting combat units, almos all Tier 2 issupport, making that you can only have zea/goon until carrier in your army.
WriterTeamLiquid Staff writer since 2014 @Mortal_Phantom
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