|
After half Code A finished we got in Code S:
3 Terrans
10 Protoss
7 Zerg.
Zerg representation is double the Terran and Protoss, ONLY TRIPLE. Do you need more data DK? The winnig % may not be the same, but who cares? I suppose we are going to see only ZvZ,PvP and PvZ in Code S. This may interest you,but as long as that league is not the "highest level"....
Even Korean Terrans are struggling, but while the ladder is "balanced" I suppose you and your bosses are fine.I hope you enjoy the mess SC2 is becoming. There are Starbow tournaments already and are sponsored. Its only a matter of time and maybe more professional hands for this "mod" and your SC2 will be absolutely dead.Nobody is going to play it, neither watching. I was so big fan of this game when it came, but now I am just tired of 4 years TvP same s..t and BIOBIOBIOBIO every single MU for Terrans.The promise for mech in TvP was the biggest change I awaited from HotS, but...there is nothing.
What are you waiting for????
|
On January 18 2014 01:35 Dvriel wrote:
After half Code A finished we got in Code S:
3 Terrans
10 Protoss
7 Zerg.
Zerg representation is double the Terran and Protoss, ONLY TRIPLE. Do you need more data DK? The winnig % may not be the same, but who cares? I suppose we are going to see only ZvZ,PvP and PvZ in Code S. This may interest you,but as long as that league is not the "highest level"....
Even Korean Terrans are struggling, but while the ladder is "balanced" I suppose you and your bosses are fine.I hope you enjoy the mess SC2 is becoming. There are Starbow tournaments already and are sponsored. Its only a matter of time and maybe more professional hands for this "mod" and your SC2 will be absolutely dead.Nobody is going to play it, neither watching. I was so big fan of this game when it came, but now I am just tired of 4 years TvP same s..t and BIOBIOBIOBIO every single MU for Terrans.The promise for mech in TvP was the biggest change I awaited from HotS, but...there is nothing.
What are you waiting for????
Is it not only 2 Terrans? Bbyong and Maru?
|
On January 18 2014 01:35 Dvriel wrote:
After half Code A finished we got in Code S:
3 Terrans
10 Protoss
7 Zerg.
Zerg representation is double the Terran and Protoss, ONLY TRIPLE. Do you need more data DK? The winnig % may not be the same, but who cares? I suppose we are going to see only ZvZ,PvP and PvZ in Code S. This may interest you,but as long as that league is not the "highest level"....
Even Korean Terrans are struggling, but while the ladder is "balanced" I suppose you and your bosses are fine.I hope you enjoy the mess SC2 is becoming. There are Starbow tournaments already and are sponsored. Its only a matter of time and maybe more professional hands for this "mod" and your SC2 will be absolutely dead.Nobody is going to play it, neither watching. I was so big fan of this game when it came, but now I am just tired of 4 years TvP same s..t and BIOBIOBIOBIO every single MU for Terrans.The promise for mech in TvP was the biggest change I awaited from HotS, but...there is nothing.
What are you waiting for????
I really like this "soon starbow will be bigger than sc2" in your post, even if it is extremely stupid^^
But yeah i agree that it isn't the best sign if code s has almost no terrans.
|
I really like this "soon starbow will be bigger than sc2" in your post, even if it is extremely stupid^^
But yeah i agree that it isn't the best sign if code s has almost no terrans.
No it has no merit on balance if 1 terran can make it then they all can they just need to play better.... It doesn't matter that one of them didn't even face protoss to make it.....
The Game is balanced when you take the skill out of the equation of the players the game is balanced don't worry.....
Edit: Btw the only thing i can think of when them saying that is they made computer players duke it out with the micro 3000 bot or w/e and see that toss only wins 51% of the time so they chalked that across the board... LOL
|
On January 17 2014 22:51 Grumbels wrote:
I think David Kim is also the balance designer for Heroes of the Storm, although I don't know if he's lead balance designer. (I guess most of the SC2 team is off developing Heroes of the Storm)
To be honest, with Blizzard's current level of involvement with Starcraft 2, there isn't really a need for David Kim to be a full-time SC2 developer.
You're confusing Kim with Browder.
|
On January 18 2014 01:56 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 22:51 Grumbels wrote:
I think David Kim is also the balance designer for Heroes of the Storm, although I don't know if he's lead balance designer. (I guess most of the SC2 team is off developing Heroes of the Storm)
To be honest, with Blizzard's current level of involvement with Starcraft 2, there isn't really a need for David Kim to be a full-time SC2 developer. You're confusing Kim with Browder.
No? Source? afaik david kim also works on hots
|
On January 17 2014 20:10 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 19:31 Micro_Jackson wrote:On January 17 2014 19:12 vthree wrote:On January 17 2014 19:05 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 17 2014 17:12 vthree wrote:On January 16 2014 19:07 Micro_Jackson wrote:On January 16 2014 18:37 artosismermaid wrote:
So is the test map not up anymore and david kim decided not to make any balance changes right now? I think they maybe canceled or rethinks the Protoss nurf due to Proleague results. Reminds me on the not happened creepspread nurf back in WoL. Hopefully they are watching the WCS qualifiers and Code A as well... Proleague is really bad in terms of statistics since it is so Protoss heavy and small sample size. So coaches will likely go with their best vP players (be it terran, zerg, protoss). Although TvP is 15-6 for P right now, Maru and TY are 8-0 (rest is 7-6). I'm sure they are not. They looked at proleague and stopped. Now Code A PvT is 13-4. But they're not saying anything. Welcome to the world of tiny sample sizes, Davik Kim. I'm glad that the guy in charge of balance is yet to learn the concept. Well, Code A has just been started. Hopefully they are looking at the games and come up with something before Code S and the main WCS NA/EU starts. Maybe its a reaction to pro feedback. Almost everyone mentioned that the Overcharge nurf will do nothing for T/Z because it doesn´t matter early game and is timing based midgame, but has the potential to make PvP worse. Or they are seeing BL/Swarmhost as a problem that has to be addressed first. Or the Blizzard HQ has been overrun by a local zombie apocalypse. According to their community communication the last thing is as likely as the other two options. Personally, I see there is no way they can do anything that can make the game popular again. Sure the game can have balanced win rates but there will never be "fun" in it except if we have a call for a complete redesign. David kim seems to have this idea that the game is fun when it is balanced hence why he is prioritising balance first but frankly said, I feel the new arcade mod starbow has more potential to be the true SC2 instead.
I am pretty much convinced of this for quite some time already. Too many big design issues. Just from the fact that they had to make mutas that good as they are now with their speed regeneration shows the current imbalances of basic units in SC2. In general the terran bio is way too strong vs normal units, followed by banelings & colossi being needed which don't create good games cause they either lose or win hard in fights usually. Terran mech is completely messed up, tanks without siege mode upgrade suck (removing upgrades like this is quite bad for the games general design I think,) thors are kinda useless or op in battles as they naturally don't create balanced and even less interesting fights, widow mines fill in the same role as thors anti air and tanks anti ground. Protoss mechanics are questionable since day1: high speed cheap upgrades with chronoboosts, warpgate mechanic with no adequate counterpart on the usual gateway, one way decisionmaking, mothership core which has way too strong timewarp.
Basically SC2 needs a redesign of 30-50% of its units in order to make it "fun" to play again and get rid of the 15 minutes 1 fight gg games that are as a result of unit/race/general design the biggest problem of the game.
|
Ugh, "fun" is so damn subjective.
|
On January 18 2014 01:49 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 01:35 Dvriel wrote:
After half Code A finished we got in Code S:
3 Terrans
10 Protoss
7 Zerg.
Zerg representation is double the Terran and Protoss, ONLY TRIPLE. Do you need more data DK? The winnig % may not be the same, but who cares? I suppose we are going to see only ZvZ,PvP and PvZ in Code S. This may interest you,but as long as that league is not the "highest level"....
Even Korean Terrans are struggling, but while the ladder is "balanced" I suppose you and your bosses are fine.I hope you enjoy the mess SC2 is becoming. There are Starbow tournaments already and are sponsored. Its only a matter of time and maybe more professional hands for this "mod" and your SC2 will be absolutely dead.Nobody is going to play it, neither watching. I was so big fan of this game when it came, but now I am just tired of 4 years TvP same s..t and BIOBIOBIOBIO every single MU for Terrans.The promise for mech in TvP was the biggest change I awaited from HotS, but...there is nothing.
What are you waiting for???? I really like this "soon starbow will be bigger than sc2" in your post, even if it is extremely stupid^^ But yeah i agree that it isn't the best sign if code s has almost no terrans.
The usual Code S Terrans are in the other Regions equivalent to Code S, so no wonder there are no Terrans in GSL. So they can always argue that Terran does so well, that they can afford to switch to other regions, since its basically a money factor now.
Just like the GomTvT era where Terran was so OP because half of the koreans played Terran and half of Code S was Terran. And in the End a few Zergs battled their way through the mass of Terrans and won. So would wait for the cries until all the Terrans are eliminated early.
Either way Terran Bio will stay in its current form probably and they will work more on mech, which means Korean Terrans that even go Bio in TvT have a few more problems soon.
|
On January 18 2014 01:35 Dvriel wrote:
After half Code A finished we got in Code S:
3 Terrans
10 Protoss
7 Zerg.
Zerg representation is double the Terran and Protoss, ONLY TRIPLE. Do you need more data DK? The winnig % may not be the same, but who cares? I suppose we are going to see only ZvZ,PvP and PvZ in Code S. This may interest you,but as long as that league is not the "highest level"....
Even Korean Terrans are struggling, but while the ladder is "balanced" I suppose you and your bosses are fine.I hope you enjoy the mess SC2 is becoming. There are Starbow tournaments already and are sponsored. Its only a matter of time and maybe more professional hands for this "mod" and your SC2 will be absolutely dead.Nobody is going to play it, neither watching. I was so big fan of this game when it came, but now I am just tired of 4 years TvP same s..t and BIOBIOBIOBIO every single MU for Terrans.The promise for mech in TvP was the biggest change I awaited from HotS, but...there is nothing.
What are you waiting for????
For one, counting terrans who are already in is irrelevant. Maru was seeded from play that happened before the patch. There are only 2 terrans in Code S at the moment because Jjaki gave up his seed to go to Europe.
Only 1 Terran has made it in from the first half of Code A. And that terran only had to play a mirror and a zerg. Every other terran was basically raped hard by protoss, including Flash.
The 2nd half of Code A will definitely have some terrans if only for the fact that there are groups with only 1 protoss or 2 terrans with only zergs. What will be interesting to see is Innovation versus his all-protoss group. If Innovation falls out despite playing perfectly, it will be really frustrating to see. All the TvP's have been exercises in frustration.
In addition, there needs to be an emergency ban to Daedulus. Seriously, has a zerg ever lost on that map? Every time a zerg loses a game, they just pick daedulus and know they will see a game 3 because zerg is so favored. We saw in proleague a super cheese to stop zerg on that map which Symbol easily countered with Nydus play. Terrans and protoss have to take a wide open, hard-to-defend natural followed by a wide-open, hard-to-defend 3rd, and then have a distant, wide-open, hard-to-defend 4th. There is almost no way to push out without getting hit by ling run-bys.
Daedulus is quite literally the most imbalanced map in the game since steppes of war. Blizzard actually took us all the way back to some of the worst days of starcraft. Stuff like this is why David Kim gets a lot of hate.
|
On January 18 2014 02:29 plogamer wrote:
Ugh, "fun" is so damn subjective.
on the one hand it is on the other hand it can be easily measured when looking at the player numbers. Obviously a game like LoL seems to be more fun and BW in korea has had alot bigger audience and playerbase than sc2 nowadays has as well.
SC2 is not all bad tho. It just doesn't do it for many progamers (lots of quitters, lots of people complaining) and as well not for casual players. Enjoyment/frustration ratio seems bad in general in SC2 due to the unit design and games that give too few options for comebacks and usually are being lost after one medium sized mistake or fail. New units like e.g. the widow mine and swarmhost even further increased the frustration/enjoyment ratio. They are new units that induce op/up scenarios and instant wins by their nature. But I said this already months ago.
|
On January 18 2014 02:35 Diogenes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 01:35 Dvriel wrote:
After half Code A finished we got in Code S:
3 Terrans
10 Protoss
7 Zerg.
Zerg representation is double the Terran and Protoss, ONLY TRIPLE. Do you need more data DK? The winnig % may not be the same, but who cares? I suppose we are going to see only ZvZ,PvP and PvZ in Code S. This may interest you,but as long as that league is not the "highest level"....
Even Korean Terrans are struggling, but while the ladder is "balanced" I suppose you and your bosses are fine.I hope you enjoy the mess SC2 is becoming. There are Starbow tournaments already and are sponsored. Its only a matter of time and maybe more professional hands for this "mod" and your SC2 will be absolutely dead.Nobody is going to play it, neither watching. I was so big fan of this game when it came, but now I am just tired of 4 years TvP same s..t and BIOBIOBIOBIO every single MU for Terrans.The promise for mech in TvP was the biggest change I awaited from HotS, but...there is nothing.
What are you waiting for???? For one, counting terrans who are already in is irrelevant. Maru was seeded from play that happened before the patch. There are only 2 terrans in Code S at the moment because Jjaki gave up his seed to go to Europe. Only 1 Terran has made it in from the first half of Code A. And that terran only had to play a mirror and a zerg. Every other terran was basically raped hard by protoss, including Flash. The 2nd half of Code A will definitely have some terrans if only for the fact that there are groups with only 1 protoss or 2 terrans with only zergs. What will be interesting to see is Innovation versus his all-protoss group. If Innovation falls out despite playing perfectly, it will be really frustrating to see. All the TvP's have been exercises in frustration. In addition, there needs to be an emergency ban to Daedulus. Seriously, has a zerg ever lost on that map? Every time a zerg loses a game, they just pick daedulus and know they will see a game 3 because zerg is so favored. We saw in proleague a super cheese to stop zerg on that map which Symbol easily countered with Nydus play. Terrans and protoss have to take a wide open, hard-to-defend natural followed by a wide-open, hard-to-defend 3rd, and then have a distant, wide-open, hard-to-defend 4th. There is almost no way to push out without getting hit by ling run-bys. Daedulus is quite literally the most imbalanced map in the game since steppes of war. Blizzard actually took us all the way back to some of the worst days of starcraft. Stuff like this is why David Kim gets a lot of hate.
Actually, the super cheese is from code A game with Ruin. Daedalus is not in PL. Yongwha also won with an unscout 1 base DT, sOs won with 3 gate expand. But yeah, that map is just bad.
|
On January 18 2014 02:37 LSN wrote:on the one hand it is on the other hand it can be easily measured when looking at the player numbers. Obviously a game like LoL seems to be more fun and BW has had alot bigger audience and playerbase than sc2 nowadays has in korea as well.
More popular, you mean. LoL and Dota2 is more popular because its much less demanding mechanically.
I enjoy games with strategic depth, where I can outmaneuver and outsmart my opponents.. And I can still do that in SC2 more so than in any other games. For me, if the maps had more chokes, and high-ground advantage was bit increased, I'd be a happy camper.
Also, to nerf powerful units that ignore terrain, like Collosi.
|
On January 18 2014 02:35 Diogenes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 01:35 Dvriel wrote:
After half Code A finished we got in Code S:
3 Terrans
10 Protoss
7 Zerg.
Zerg representation is double the Terran and Protoss, ONLY TRIPLE. Do you need more data DK? The winnig % may not be the same, but who cares? I suppose we are going to see only ZvZ,PvP and PvZ in Code S. This may interest you,but as long as that league is not the "highest level"....
Even Korean Terrans are struggling, but while the ladder is "balanced" I suppose you and your bosses are fine.I hope you enjoy the mess SC2 is becoming. There are Starbow tournaments already and are sponsored. Its only a matter of time and maybe more professional hands for this "mod" and your SC2 will be absolutely dead.Nobody is going to play it, neither watching. I was so big fan of this game when it came, but now I am just tired of 4 years TvP same s..t and BIOBIOBIOBIO every single MU for Terrans.The promise for mech in TvP was the biggest change I awaited from HotS, but...there is nothing.
What are you waiting for???? For one, counting terrans who are already in is irrelevant. Maru was seeded from play that happened before the patch. There are only 2 terrans in Code S at the moment because Jjaki gave up his seed to go to Europe. Only 1 Terran has made it in from the first half of Code A. And that terran only had to play a mirror and a zerg. Every other terran was basically raped hard by protoss, including Flash. The 2nd half of Code A will definitely have some terrans if only for the fact that there are groups with only 1 protoss or 2 terrans with only zergs. What will be interesting to see is Innovation versus his all-protoss group. If Innovation falls out despite playing perfectly, it will be really frustrating to see. All the TvP's have been exercises in frustration. In addition, there needs to be an emergency ban to Daedulus. Seriously, has a zerg ever lost on that map? Every time a zerg loses a game, they just pick daedulus and know they will see a game 3 because zerg is so favored. We saw in proleague a super cheese to stop zerg on that map which Symbol easily countered with Nydus play. Terrans and protoss have to take a wide open, hard-to-defend natural followed by a wide-open, hard-to-defend 3rd, and then have a distant, wide-open, hard-to-defend 4th. There is almost no way to push out without getting hit by ling run-bys. Daedulus is quite literally the most imbalanced map in the game since steppes of war. Blizzard actually took us all the way back to some of the worst days of starcraft. Stuff like this is why David Kim gets a lot of hate.
I think a chess analogy is relevant here. Jose Raul Capablanca is a chess player that was world champion for six years, although realistically he was the best player in the world for longer. He was known for his classically perfect play, in accordance to the rules of positional play. His moves still stand up very well to chess engine inspection, perhaps better than any other world champion. However, his downside was that he was, in Kasparov's words, calcified. In the end his play, although perfect, was too simple and didn't pose enough problems for his opponents, and this culminated in a victory over him by Alexander Alekhine. A much sloppier player, not necessarily with the best technique, but known for his "grand conceptions". He would get himself into very chaotic and dynamic positions that through unparalleled creativity he would find a way out of. He defeated Capablanca, who never took him seriously as an opponent, and was the world champion for another nearly twenty years. (mostly because he dodged Capablanca who couldn't get the funds for a rematch, but still  )
I think Innovation is a great player, perhaps technically the best Starcraft 2 player, but if he doesn't make it difficult enough for his opponents he makes himself too vulnerable and his play can too easily be exploited. Part of Maru's strength is that his opponents play worse because they never know what to expect. Creativity should be rewarded, don't you think? Nobody cares about who is the hypothetically best player if you play a Bo99 vs someone. If Innovation just does the technically strongest build of SCV pulling and loses he has himself to blame for not confusing his opponents enough.
Also, Daedulus point might be bad for protoss, but they're still winning a lot of games on it. Maybe, again, it rewards creative play?
|
So regarding balance, would all this "fuss" mean that Starcraft 2 is a harder game than Starcraft 1!?
|
|
|
On January 18 2014 03:11 Mahavishnu wrote:
So regarding balance, would all this "fuss" mean that Starcraft 2 is a harder game than Starcraft 1!?
Depends on how you define "hard". It's certainly a lot less mechanically challenging - the harder aspect is that there is a very small margin for error due to the high dps of all the units and army clumping. Small mistakes in BW might make you lose an engagement, but it won't be as one sided as SC2 is - ex. last night code A Cure vs. Panic, cure is up 20-30 supply in army, is not paying attention to his army for 3 in game seconds and loses to the meatgrinder that is protoss late game.
Sure it's hard, but is this the type of difficulty that we want? Doesn't this create more randomness as humans are simply not perfect machines and are prone to make errors?
Either way, it appears to me at least that there is clearly a problem with the state of the game as it is. However, this problem may not be a balance issue that can be explained by win rates - although there is some solid evidence that it may be.
If anyone is satisfied with the way Starcraft II currently is, they should really take a look at the whole picture and imagine what would be best for the game in 5 years. The situation with starbow may be on the polar opposite of how blizzard has approached the design of SC2, but hopefully its increasing popularity will finally push blizzard in the direction of making the large scale changes to the game design that the community has been pushing since day one of beta.
|
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
To quote David Kim, "As of this writing Protoss has won 23 of 35 non mirrored matchups in Code A."
|
On January 18 2014 03:38 stuchiu wrote:
To quote David Kim, "As of this writing Protoss has won 23 of 35 non mirrored matchups in Code A."
You are actually hilarious.
|
On January 18 2014 02:53 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 02:37 LSN wrote:On January 18 2014 02:29 plogamer wrote:
Ugh, "fun" is so damn subjective. on the one hand it is on the other hand it can be easily measured when looking at the player numbers. Obviously a game like LoL seems to be more fun and BW has had alot bigger audience and playerbase than sc2 nowadays has in korea as well. More popular, you mean. LoL and Dota2 is more popular because its much less demanding mechanically. I enjoy games with strategic depth, where I can outmaneuver and outsmart my opponents.. And I can still do that in SC2 more so than in any other games. For me, if the maps had more chokes, and high-ground advantage was bit increased, I'd be a happy camper. Also, to nerf powerful units that ignore terrain, like Collosi.
I wouldn't say that LoL or Dota2 is more popular cause of mechanics. BW had brutal mechanics, yet it was far more popular than SC2 was ever at it's peak. It's 100% cause those games are more fun.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
