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On January 16 2014 01:08 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +Not very surprising, it's a playstyle that is very fun for the person doing it, and incredibly frustrating for the person being subjected to it. In WoW this happened all the time, blizz had to nerf the ability of some classes to shut down others, players of that class complained that it was a fun playstyle and should not be nerfed, and the developers had to explain over and over that while it may be fun for you, it was severely affecting the ability of other players to enjoy the game.
Unfortunately, crowd control is really the only playstyle I enjoy. However, I do understand that feeling helpless against it isn't fun. But I'd prefer that, in addressing that, designers take the approach that MtG took with Blue or that Riot takes with CC in LoL--namely, there are a lot of very powerful crowd control abilities that you can build a playstyle around, but there are also consistently available counters that allow you bust out of said crowd control. To apply that to SC2, if they just removed forcefield and other abilities that offer the potential to dictate what the other player can do, I probably wouldn't play the game anymore. Dictating the battlefield and the actions of other players is the entire reason I play competitive games. However, I wouldn't be at all opposed if they kept it in, but offered more counters--more accessible burrow move, maybe giving forcefields HP and a low target priority, making emp remove forcefields, etc.
Giving force fields HP and making EMP wipe them would be huge, protoss could probably never take a third against zerg on some maps unless other changes were made too. This is the problem with an RTS with multiple unique factions, mess with one mechanic, odds are you'll end up tinkering with all of them.
I don't know Kev, what we would like to see done and what can be realistically be done at this point probably aren't all that close. Maybe SB can serve as a conversation catalyst.
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On January 16 2014 01:07 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 01:02 Big J wrote:On January 16 2014 00:36 Squat wrote:
Agreed, marines are awesome. Mutas too, they get hated on a lot, but it's a great unit that also rewards micro and flexibility. More units should be like that. Units that do X and only X and don't you even dare try to use them for Y are so fucking boring, roaches/void rays etc, I'm looking at you. Exaggerate what X and only X is and what you want the roach and voidray to be capable of doing as well... Because I see those units (especially roaches) used for jobs A,B,C and D. Blunt force units that are spammable in the sense that you can build a shit ton of them, attack with little or no micro, and still do pretty good. I dislike the ease with which they become effective and the lack of thought or strategy that goes into building them.
Just because you're god-damn awful and don't understand what's going on in the game doesn't mean building voids is void of strategical depth.
User was warned for this post
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Giving force fields HP and making EMP wipe them would be huge, protoss could probably never take a third against zerg on some maps unless other changes were made too. This is the problem with an RTS with multiple unique factions, mess with one mechanic, odds are you'll end up tinkering with all of them.
Oh sure, some rebalancing would be necessary. But I don't think it would be insurmountable. My larger point is that, as a design philosophy, I much prefer "we want to give more counters to crowd control" rather than "we want to take crowd control out of the game."
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But you like marines? The unit that only needs to press a button to do even better against even more units on amove...
Marines are about as far from a blunt force unit as you can get, it's the most microable unit in the game, and will perform terribly if just a-moved.
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4713 Posts
On January 16 2014 01:09 Big J wrote:
But you like marines? The unit that only needs to press a button to do even better against even more units on amove...
That couldn't be farther from the truth, while marines do a lot of DPS they are extremely fragile and melt to aoe. Thus you need to micro them exceptionally well to keep them alive, the better the micro the more you can keep alive, the more you can keep alive the better their DPS, the better their DPS the more likely you are to win.
Roaches and most of the protoss army is considered a-move, and rightfully so, because it is so beefy in terms of HP and can deal so much damage, that you can a-move it and have a reasonable chance of success. Its so durable that little micro needs to be inserted to keep it alive, while maximizing its DPS.
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On January 16 2014 01:24 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +But you like marines? The unit that only needs to press a button to do even better against even more units on amove... Marines are about as far from a blunt force unit as you can get, it's the most microable unit in the game, and will perform terribly if just a-moved.
No it does not. Like apart from banelings, Colossi and Templar, it is equal or better vs every unit in the game than the roach is. Amongst those, they beat roaches. On stim+a-move.
It performs amazingly on amove, but you will usually not find an opponent stupid enough to amove into your marines with the wrong units. Just like you won't find an opponent stupid enough to amove against roaches with the wrong units.
On January 16 2014 01:28 Destructicon wrote:
Roaches and most of the protoss army is considered a-move, and rightfully so, because it is so beefy in terms of HP and can deal so much damage, that you can a-move it and have a reasonable chance of success. Its so durable that little micro needs to be inserted to keep it alive, while maximizing its DPS.
Amove into sentry/immortal or MMM with roaches and witness how a tiny bit of micro from the opponent will destroy you.
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On January 16 2014 01:28 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 01:09 Big J wrote:
But you like marines? The unit that only needs to press a button to do even better against even more units on amove... That couldn't be farther from the truth, while marines do a lot of DPS they are extremely fragile and melt to aoe. Thus you need to micro them exceptionally well to keep them alive, the better the micro the more you can keep alive, the more you can keep alive the better their DPS, the better their DPS the more likely you are to win. Roaches and most of the protoss army is considered a-move, and rightfully so, because it is so beefy in terms of HP and can deal so much damage, that you can a-move it and have a reasonable chance of success. Its so durable that little micro needs to be inserted to keep it alive, while maximizing its DPS.
To be fair, Roaches benefit extremely much more from micro than rumor would have it thanks to the nature of overkill. If you were to compare the micro of -insert really good zerg- and something like automaton 3000 for Roaches micro in a large-scale battle, the result would be completely different.
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On January 16 2014 01:29 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 01:24 Squat wrote:But you like marines? The unit that only needs to press a button to do even better against even more units on amove... Marines are about as far from a blunt force unit as you can get, it's the most microable unit in the game, and will perform terribly if just a-moved. No it does not. Like apart from banelings, Colossi and Templar, it is equal or better vs every unit in the game than the roach is. Amongst those, they beat roaches. On stim+a-move. It performs amazingly on amove, but you will usually not find an opponent stupid enough to amove into your marines with the wrong units. Just like you won't find an opponent stupid enough to amove against roaches with the wrong units. Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 01:28 Destructicon wrote:
Roaches and most of the protoss army is considered a-move, and rightfully so, because it is so beefy in terms of HP and can deal so much damage, that you can a-move it and have a reasonable chance of success. Its so durable that little micro needs to be inserted to keep it alive, while maximizing its DPS. Amove into sentry/immortal or MMM with roaches and witness how a tiny bit of micro from the opponent will destroy you.
Hydras do well against Marines. Zealotscharge melt marines if you don't kitte. Sentries are by no mean a DPS unit, and Immortals aren't used to kill marines. A huge mass of roach upgraded will tank very well against a marineball only too.
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On January 16 2014 01:35 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 01:29 Big J wrote:On January 16 2014 01:24 Squat wrote:But you like marines? The unit that only needs to press a button to do even better against even more units on amove... Marines are about as far from a blunt force unit as you can get, it's the most microable unit in the game, and will perform terribly if just a-moved. No it does not. Like apart from banelings, Colossi and Templar, it is equal or better vs every unit in the game than the roach is. Amongst those, they beat roaches. On stim+a-move. It performs amazingly on amove, but you will usually not find an opponent stupid enough to amove into your marines with the wrong units. Just like you won't find an opponent stupid enough to amove against roaches with the wrong units. On January 16 2014 01:28 Destructicon wrote:
Roaches and most of the protoss army is considered a-move, and rightfully so, because it is so beefy in terms of HP and can deal so much damage, that you can a-move it and have a reasonable chance of success. Its so durable that little micro needs to be inserted to keep it alive, while maximizing its DPS. Amove into sentry/immortal or MMM with roaches and witness how a tiny bit of micro from the opponent will destroy you. Hydras do well against Marines. Zealotscharge melt marines if you don't kitte. Sentries are by no mean a DPS unit, and Immortals aren't used to kill marines. A huge mass of roach upgraded will tank very well against a marineball only too.
OVERKILL. It changes everything. Once you hit critical mass, the Roaches will be overkilling so much, they'll be highly inefficient.
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On January 16 2014 01:35 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 01:29 Big J wrote:On January 16 2014 01:24 Squat wrote:But you like marines? The unit that only needs to press a button to do even better against even more units on amove... Marines are about as far from a blunt force unit as you can get, it's the most microable unit in the game, and will perform terribly if just a-moved. No it does not. Like apart from banelings, Colossi and Templar, it is equal or better vs every unit in the game than the roach is. Amongst those, they beat roaches. On stim+a-move. It performs amazingly on amove, but you will usually not find an opponent stupid enough to amove into your marines with the wrong units. Just like you won't find an opponent stupid enough to amove against roaches with the wrong units. On January 16 2014 01:28 Destructicon wrote:
Roaches and most of the protoss army is considered a-move, and rightfully so, because it is so beefy in terms of HP and can deal so much damage, that you can a-move it and have a reasonable chance of success. Its so durable that little micro needs to be inserted to keep it alive, while maximizing its DPS. Amove into sentry/immortal or MMM with roaches and witness how a tiny bit of micro from the opponent will destroy you. Hydras do well against Marines. Zealotscharge melt marines if you don't kitte. Sentries are by no mean a DPS unit, and Immortals aren't used to kill marines. A huge mass of roach upgraded will tank very well against a marineball only too.
Hydras do well against Marines... I guess that's the time I should stop arguing...
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On January 16 2014 01:38 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 01:35 Faust852 wrote:On January 16 2014 01:29 Big J wrote:On January 16 2014 01:24 Squat wrote:But you like marines? The unit that only needs to press a button to do even better against even more units on amove... Marines are about as far from a blunt force unit as you can get, it's the most microable unit in the game, and will perform terribly if just a-moved. No it does not. Like apart from banelings, Colossi and Templar, it is equal or better vs every unit in the game than the roach is. Amongst those, they beat roaches. On stim+a-move. It performs amazingly on amove, but you will usually not find an opponent stupid enough to amove into your marines with the wrong units. Just like you won't find an opponent stupid enough to amove against roaches with the wrong units. On January 16 2014 01:28 Destructicon wrote:
Roaches and most of the protoss army is considered a-move, and rightfully so, because it is so beefy in terms of HP and can deal so much damage, that you can a-move it and have a reasonable chance of success. Its so durable that little micro needs to be inserted to keep it alive, while maximizing its DPS. Amove into sentry/immortal or MMM with roaches and witness how a tiny bit of micro from the opponent will destroy you. Hydras do well against Marines. Zealotscharge melt marines if you don't kitte. Sentries are by no mean a DPS unit, and Immortals aren't used to kill marines. A huge mass of roach upgraded will tank very well against a marineball only too. Hydras do well against Marines... I guess that's the time I should stop arguing...
You should be aware that in TvZ, if the zerg decide to play roach hydra, it's almost impossible to win a fight for the terran if he doesn't get tanks right ? The only way without tank if heavy multitask and get better upgrades, and still, might be not enough.
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On January 16 2014 01:13 Grumbels wrote:
I thought the frost mage was a better design for WoW PvP than the rogue. The latter has many different disables and escapes, but they're all defensive, I think it's only polymorph that can be annoying. The rogue on the other hand had so many stuns that it can really be unpleasant to play against. (I'm talking about ~TBC era, which is what I'm familiar with, I think Blizzard has added many anti-cc abilities since then)
They realized it made for a terrible experience for whoever was on the receiving end and have been continuously nerfing almost all forms of CC in the game, and are looking to reduce it even more for the next expansion. Most players seem, understandably, quite positive about this direction.
It's kind of interesting that this lesson has not resonated more with their other franchises.
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Hydras do well against Marines... I guess that's the time I should stop arguing...
In fact they do, problem is the cost. In a real game they do not, at least in Pure Hydra. But Hydra/Roach do very well, because it keeps the Terran stuck in his base for ever, until he have 200/200 bioball or lots of tanks. Leading to a shitty and uninteresting match ending.
For the marine nerf proposition, I'd be all for it. But at least i'd like marines to still be usable by good micro in this case. And i'd like a buff to nearly every other terran unit in too if this happens.
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On January 16 2014 01:43 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 01:13 Grumbels wrote:
I thought the frost mage was a better design for WoW PvP than the rogue. The latter has many different disables and escapes, but they're all defensive, I think it's only polymorph that can be annoying. The rogue on the other hand had so many stuns that it can really be unpleasant to play against. (I'm talking about ~TBC era, which is what I'm familiar with, I think Blizzard has added many anti-cc abilities since then) They realized it made for a terrible experience for whoever was on the receiving end and have been continuously nerfing almost all forms of CC in the game, and are looking to reduce it even more for the next expansion. Most players seem, understandably, quite positive about this direction. It's kind of interesting that this lesson has not resonated more with their other franchises.
Starcraft 2 for the most part was designed in 2007-2008. The game hasn't changed that much honestly. It's unsurprising that it feels archaic.
Also, small correction: I said "the latter" when I meant "the former" in the quoted post.
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On January 16 2014 01:41 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 01:38 Big J wrote:On January 16 2014 01:35 Faust852 wrote:On January 16 2014 01:29 Big J wrote:On January 16 2014 01:24 Squat wrote:But you like marines? The unit that only needs to press a button to do even better against even more units on amove... Marines are about as far from a blunt force unit as you can get, it's the most microable unit in the game, and will perform terribly if just a-moved. No it does not. Like apart from banelings, Colossi and Templar, it is equal or better vs every unit in the game than the roach is. Amongst those, they beat roaches. On stim+a-move. It performs amazingly on amove, but you will usually not find an opponent stupid enough to amove into your marines with the wrong units. Just like you won't find an opponent stupid enough to amove against roaches with the wrong units. On January 16 2014 01:28 Destructicon wrote:
Roaches and most of the protoss army is considered a-move, and rightfully so, because it is so beefy in terms of HP and can deal so much damage, that you can a-move it and have a reasonable chance of success. Its so durable that little micro needs to be inserted to keep it alive, while maximizing its DPS. Amove into sentry/immortal or MMM with roaches and witness how a tiny bit of micro from the opponent will destroy you. Hydras do well against Marines. Zealotscharge melt marines if you don't kitte. Sentries are by no mean a DPS unit, and Immortals aren't used to kill marines. A huge mass of roach upgraded will tank very well against a marineball only too. Hydras do well against Marines... I guess that's the time I should stop arguing... You should be aware that in TvZ, if the zerg decide to play roach hydra, it's almost impossible to win a fight for the terran if he doesn't get tanks right ? The only way without tank if heavy multitask and get better upgrades, and still, might be not enough.
No, you're not right. The reason you need tanks is the 2-2 roach/hydra timing, because you can't possibly produce enough bio to hold it without them.
After that you could go without tanks, but it would be stupid to skip them. Roach/Hydra should lose vs lategame bioplay regardless (hence the melee Ultralisk, Broodlord and Infestor transitions that the few roach/hydra players use).
On January 16 2014 01:48 MTAC wrote:Show nested quote +Hydras do well against Marines... I guess that's the time I should stop arguing... In fact they do, problem is the cost.
Of course I'm talking costbased. If I have way more investment in tanks, of course they will also do amazing against Immortals...
If you have a 2:1 ratio (100/0/2 vs 100/50/2) ratio of marines vs hydras the marines rape the hydras.
Same goes for roaches (though by far not as drastically). 2:1 (100/0/2 vs 75/25/2) marines:roaches the marines win. You need a +1armor advantage for roaches to break even. I tested all of that so often...
Which brings me back to the original argument. Marines are better than roaches against more units. The difference is that Terran cannot "swarm" the opponent with marines like zerg can with roaches. But if someone says the roach is an easy amove unit because of that, I gotta question his analytical skills, because the core of those strategies is not the roach but the larva mechanic (vs the barracks production). And the roach is merely the best unit for the job in many scenarios. Had zerg other units with a similar role - let's call it a BW hydralisk - Zerg would do these strategies - let's call them hydralisk busts - instead. Or zergling/baneling busts if they want to go offensive vs marine tank.
Meanwhile the roach has a lot of other jobs as well. And those roach busts have been figured to the point where people actually know what to build and how to micro - and abuse a Zerg that charges in regardless. And anybody who watches highlevel play like proleague will find much more subtle roachplay than roachbusts in those games.
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Marines are great in TvZ -- it's exciting to watch banelings roll in and the Terran player furiously attempt to split. It's a technique that will probably never be perfected, so it's always interesting to see if the player can manage to turn a guaranteed lost battle into a victory with sheer micro, and to see whether or not the Zerg can identify when the battle is no longer cost efficient and pulls away.
Both races have interesting 'glass cannon' units with a lot of mobility, appropriate techniques to engage/disengage, back and forth battles, etc. Zerg can quickly tech switch, but Terran usually has the infrastructure to at least survive the infamous 4-S-TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT strategy: marines and widow mines. Marines aren't a problem at all in TvZ IMO.
The problem with the marine is, as expected, TvP.
As a whole, the marine is a GREAT unit. Generally regarded as the best overall unit in the game. But it doesn't do anything spectacular in TvP. You make them early on to survive all-ins (which requires the use of bunkers because marines are awful against gateway units before stim) and the high possibility of oracle harass. And.. that's about all they're good at.
Marines can't attack a Protoss early game because forcefields are pretty damn easy against non-stimmed marines and photon overcharge is even easier. There's nothing a Terran player can do to use marines aggressively like TvZ, except marine drops, which is funny because the only way to make marines an aggressive unit in TvP involves avoiding the Protoss army at all costs. Still, Protosses have gotten extremely good at defending drops these days.
And when the Terran finally gets the necessary upgrades and marine count to actually mount an assault, the Protoss is usually already teching into one of two AoE options which require completely different responses (neither of which completely synergizes with a bio army, aside from the fact that vikings can fly which saves ground space) but both equally shut down marines with basically no downside, not to mention upgraded chargelots in the late game.
Hence the popularity of SCV pulling -- you have better odds of winning by throwing 80% of your workers at a Protoss for one single fight than you would if you allowed them to tech. Sounds a lot like WoL PvZ, doesn't it? "Win before BL/infestor or.. lose."
Marines have no transition in TvP. You get marines early to stay alive, and you have to keep making marines (and marauders and medivacs, yes) because.. mid/late game tech switch into mech in TvP? LOL. But Protoss can freely switch between colossi and templar at any point.
Obviously, mech needs to be made more viable in the matchup, but other things like making ghosts more cost effective combat units would help a ton IMO. Hell, maybe something as simple as giving ghosts stim so they can actually do damage and kite.
Can you imagine seeing a bioball that doesn't have a single marine in it? Everything would have more hitpoints and wouldn't die to a single storm. There would probably be more back and forth battles like TvZ. Further nerfs/rebalancing would probably need to be done to EMP and snipe, but I'd be okay with that.
I'm sure I sound like a Protoss hater, but I'm with the majority on this one: the source of most balance/design complaints stem from Protoss.
Marines aren't the problem.
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So is the test map not up anymore and david kim decided not to make any balance changes right now?
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On January 16 2014 18:37 artosismermaid wrote:
So is the test map not up anymore and david kim decided not to make any balance changes right now?
I think they maybe canceled or rethinks the Protoss nurf due to Proleague results. Reminds me on the not happened creepspread nurf back in WoL.
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On January 16 2014 19:07 Micro_Jackson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 18:37 artosismermaid wrote:
So is the test map not up anymore and david kim decided not to make any balance changes right now? I think they maybe canceled or rethinks the Protoss nurf due to Proleague results. Reminds me on the not happened creepspread nurf back in WoL.
Reminds me of the multiple kneejerks Terran got (Ghost  (()
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On January 16 2014 19:07 Micro_Jackson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 18:37 artosismermaid wrote:
So is the test map not up anymore and david kim decided not to make any balance changes right now? I think they maybe canceled or rethinks the Protoss nurf due to Proleague results. Reminds me on the not happened creepspread nurf back in WoL.
Hopefully they are watching the WCS qualifiers and Code A as well... Proleague is really bad in terms of statistics since it is so Protoss heavy and small sample size. So coaches will likely go with their best vP players (be it terran, zerg, protoss). Although TvP is 15-6 for P right now, Maru and TY are 8-0 (rest is 7-6).
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EPT
