|
On December 18 2013 00:49 SolidSMD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:36 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 00:32 SolidSMD wrote:On December 18 2013 00:27 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 00:17 AxionSteel wrote:On December 17 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle). What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens? Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests). I main Protoss but I do also play Terran. When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG. A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings. Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to. Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity . Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight. At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses. Anyone who plays the game at a decent level knows that his claims are ridiculous. His offrace Terran is probably no more than Diamond, perhaps low Masters at best, and he just uses the few games he had against bad opponents to justify his vague theorycraft about Terran "not using all their options" (something particularly amusing considering the history of Terran losing tons of options precisely because they were using them). Ok, fair enough, he probably overestimates the power of his build. But opening marine/mine/medivac in tvp isn't that bad as you make it seem, I saw bomber using it vs some NA toss yesterday, later destroying toss army at his third with a nice flank. It doesn't seem to be a bad opening at all and it gives you plenty of options to deal with protoss all-ins (you have fact and port up already). Yet many terran still choose to open up fast expand and hit with the medivac timing around 10 mins, which every toss prepares for nowadays. So I really don't see why the opening isn't used more, is there some hardcounter i don't know about? If that is the case, enlighten me.
Bomber vs NA toss...
|
On December 17 2013 23:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote:
I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better. Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular. 
Maybe he just finds it wierd that we skipped the Z whining in hots and went straight to P. But don't you worry whenever gglord/swarmhost/infestor/viper turtle has been figured out we'll see plenty of Z is IMBA 
|
On December 18 2013 01:32 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 23:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote:
I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better. Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular. Maybe he just finds it wierd that we skipped the Z whining in hots and went straight to P. But don't you worry whenever gglord/swarmhost/infestor/viper turtle has been figured out we'll see plenty of Z is IMBA
It's already started quietly with mass mutas hehe.
|
On December 18 2013 01:27 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:59 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 00:49 SolidSMD wrote:On December 18 2013 00:36 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 00:32 SolidSMD wrote:On December 18 2013 00:27 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 00:17 AxionSteel wrote:On December 17 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle). What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens? Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests). I main Protoss but I do also play Terran. When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG. A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings. Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to. Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity . Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight. At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses. Anyone who plays the game at a decent level knows that his claims are ridiculous. His offrace Terran is probably no more than Diamond, perhaps low Masters at best, and he just uses the few games he had against bad opponents to justify his vague theorycraft about Terran "not using all their options" (something particularly amusing considering the history of Terran losing tons of options precisely because they were using them). Ok, fair enough, he probably overestimates the power of his build. But opening marine/mine/medivac in tvp isn't that bad as you make it seem, I saw bomber using it vs some NA yesterday, later destroying toss army at his third with a nice flank. It doesn't seem to be a bad opening at all and it gives you plenty of options to deal with protoss all-ins (you have fact and port up already). Yet many terran still choose to open up fast expand and hit with the medivac timing around 10 mins, which every toss prepares for nowadays. So I really don't see why the opening isn't used more, is there some hardcounter i don't know about? If so, enlighten me. Gas first 1-1-1 does exist in TvP, but it's a "niche build" (it cannot be used as a standard). If Protoss scouts it and prepares accordingly, you deal no damage and you're economically behind. See for instance TaeJa vs sOs, Akilon Wastes, at the last Dreamhack: sOs scouted the attack, simply evacuated his natural and held without losing a single Probe. He lost afterwards because he tried something too ambitious and lost two critical Templars, but he was definitely ahead after the opening. Same story in Bogus vs San, Whirlwind, Dailymotion Cup; if scouted, Terran also has to worry about a Stalker counter-attack. While this build can deal lots of damage against an unprepared Protoss or against builds skipping detection/cheating on units to tech agressively (quick dual forge, Dark shrine, etc.), it cannot threaten anything serious against 13 scout + MSC expand into detection (Stargate or robo forge). Is everyone paying attention? THIS is how you should gripe, and analyze build orders. Beautiful post, thank you for the game references to be able to see it in action. I would give you TL+, but you already have it.
Problem is this has been mentioned in the thread previously. Numerous pro game example were cited. But Protoss just mention how their off race Terran somehow came up with this ingenious build that crushes Ps. And pro Terrans are just too lazy to adapt even though it could mean winning tournaments. Protoss used to argue that Protoss didn't win any tournaments but now that they have, they argue the win rate is not that bad...
|
On December 18 2013 00:38 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:33 Assirra wrote:On December 18 2013 00:18 -Celestial- wrote:On December 17 2013 23:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote:
I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better. Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular. Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad. Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms. No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players.
Yeah. Also the patchzerg era was reflective also of tournament play - with quite a few top pros convinced of imbalance. This is different. It is more about ladder (which is essentially meaningless in the larger scheme of things) and is quite abusive online and on TL. I'm usually calm about these sorts of things. But, idiocy upon idiocy is irritating and, after that, dispiriting.
I've been thinking it might be time for a bit of a break from SC2 for me. Next year may be better. Heck, DK might come out with a tweak to the MSC/NC and an Oracle nerf and we can then all calm down about our precious ladder games.
|
On December 13 2013 21:12 Plansix wrote:
Well that was quick, but I am not really surprised at the outcome. The grass is always greener. Those stream viewers sure were nice for him for a while.
Clearly Protoss was too easy.
|
On December 18 2013 02:27 Mortal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2013 21:12 Plansix wrote:
Well that was quick, but I am not really surprised at the outcome. The grass is always greener. Those stream viewers sure were nice for him for a while. Clearly Protoss was too easy.
Something like that. Or needed those stream views. At least the thread allowed more people to be exposed to the great Jaedongs teachings on balance and self reflection.
|
On December 18 2013 02:19 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:38 Crownlol wrote:On December 18 2013 00:33 Assirra wrote:On December 18 2013 00:18 -Celestial- wrote:On December 17 2013 23:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote:
I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better. Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular. Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad. Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms. No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players. Yeah. Also the patchzerg era was reflective also of tournament play - with quite a few top pros convinced of imbalance. This is different. It is more about ladder (which is essentially meaningless in the larger scheme of things) and is quite abusive online and on TL. I'm usually calm about these sorts of things. But, idiocy upon idiocy is irritating and, after that, dispiriting. I've been thinking it might be time for a bit of a break from SC2 for me. Next year may be better. Heck, DK might come out with a tweak to the MSC/NC and an Oracle nerf and we can then all calm down about our precious ladder games.
Amen. Exactly how I feel.
You might wanna try out Starbow, really fun mod, it's a mix of bw and sc2 and a couple new/tweaked stuff.
It's still in beta-phase, but a lot of stuff really feels good, like bw pvt metagame (mech that is actually good and fun to play, comebacks possible, longer and more battles, ...).
|
United States23455 Posts
On December 18 2013 00:38 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:33 Assirra wrote:On December 18 2013 00:18 -Celestial- wrote:On December 17 2013 23:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote:
I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better. Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular. Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad. Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms. No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players.
I don't know where you were during broodlord infestor, but it certainly wasn't on any forums. It was much more abusive. It's been cyclical and this recent Protoss is OP trend isn't any worse than anything has been before.
Zerg broodlord infestor was probably the worst.
|
On December 18 2013 00:27 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:17 AxionSteel wrote:On December 17 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle). What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens? Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests). I main Protoss but I do also play Terran. When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG. A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings. Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to. Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity . Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight.
ROFL.
Terrans whining that Protoss is imbalanced on the LADDER. Because obviously it is not imbalanced in tournaments (win rates are very close to 50%). Okay, I can understand given the number of high P on ladder that they'd be upset.
So then you give them ideas of things that they can do on the ladder that work for you when you play Terran, and they tell you that FUCKING RAIN AND PARTING can beat these strategies.
????
PROFESSIONAL TvP IS NOT IMBALANCED!! This is just statistics.
Ladder Terrans, as demonstrated by this thread, are incredibly stubborn and do not want to listen to anything that can help them. Even from guys who main Protoss who are here giving you suggestions and telling you things that they lose to. TO HELP YOU WIN.
I don't understand it. It's like you WANT to lose so you can complain. I bet all TL.net Terrans are into weird S&M and bondage shit too lol. It's fucking ridiculous.
Let's go through this logic again:
1) I play Protoss. Obviously I only win on ladder because of my race.
2) I play Terran. I win because my opponents are not Rain and Parting.
3) When I lose as Protoss, I write down the strategies that beat me and then try them as Terran.
4) I win with them as Terran.
5) I go on TL.net to share them with other LADDER TERRANS to help them
6) They ridicule my strategies and go back to complaining about GSL
Fuck it.
I hope you drown in Psi Storm under the shadow of my Colossi while my Zealots boogie under the disco lights of my Oracles. And the DTs will be there too but you won't see them because they're fucking permanently invisible. Deal with it.
|
On December 18 2013 00:38 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:33 Assirra wrote:On December 18 2013 00:18 -Celestial- wrote:On December 17 2013 23:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote:
I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better. Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular. Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad. Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms. No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players.
Again, it was exactly like that so stop saying it wasn't.
Patchzerg was a term widely accepted in this forum even by mods for fuck sake.
Zergs were hated for the patchzerg era and for months later as well, it wsn't till the hellbat that zergs finally were finally stop being spit upon and even then we had "stop whining asshole, you got your OP moment so suffer now". crap.
|
On December 18 2013 03:01 Darkhoarse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:38 Crownlol wrote:On December 18 2013 00:33 Assirra wrote:On December 18 2013 00:18 -Celestial- wrote:On December 17 2013 23:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote:
I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better. Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular. Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad. Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms. No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players. I don't know where you were during broodlord infestor, but it certainly wasn't on any forums. It was much more abusive. It's been cyclical and this recent Protoss is OP trend isn't any worse than anything has been before. Zerg broodlord infestor was probably the worst.
Yeah, the Zerg hate was strong in the patchZerg era and there was a lot of Protoss hate during the Idra vs Cruncher era. Then the era of GOMTvT.
Not all of those era's balance whine was based on logic or reality. Some were, some were based on whine from popular community figures. The volume of complaints might not relate to reality or their validity. It's why I alway rely on who is winning and does it look fair, rather than the consensus at the time.
|
On December 18 2013 03:08 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:38 Crownlol wrote:On December 18 2013 00:33 Assirra wrote:On December 18 2013 00:18 -Celestial- wrote:On December 17 2013 23:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote:
I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better. Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular. Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad. Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms. No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players. Again, it was exactly like that so stop saying it wasn't. Patchzerg was a term widely accepted in this forum even by mods for fuck sake. Zergs were hated for the patchzerg era and for months later as well, it wsn't till the hellbat that zergs finally were finally stop being spit upon and even then we had "stop whining asshole, you got your OP moment so suffer now". crap.
I think there is a big difference between calling uprising pro's during an OP time for zerg patchzergs and calling random people on ladder faggets/noobs/retards/... because they choose to play protoss (which they probably have been for the last years).
I don't mind people calling toss imba that much, what I mislike is the hate and elitism that you get from many terrans.
|
On December 18 2013 03:16 SolidSMD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 03:08 Assirra wrote:On December 18 2013 00:38 Crownlol wrote:On December 18 2013 00:33 Assirra wrote:On December 18 2013 00:18 -Celestial- wrote:On December 17 2013 23:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote:
I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better. Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular. Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad. Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms. No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players. Again, it was exactly like that so stop saying it wasn't. Patchzerg was a term widely accepted in this forum even by mods for fuck sake. Zergs were hated for the patchzerg era and for months later as well, it wsn't till the hellbat that zergs finally were finally stop being spit upon and even then we had "stop whining asshole, you got your OP moment so suffer now". crap. I think there is a big difference between calling uprising pro's during an OP time for zerg patchzergs and calling random people on ladder faggets/noobs/retards/... because they choose to play protoss (which they probably have been for the last years). I don't mind people calling toss imba that much, what I mislike is the hate and elitism that you get from many terrans.
But it was the same, only a step further since even pro's had to suffer under that nonsense. Really, just look in either patchzerg thread and see the complete bullshit that came out of some people's mouth, you'd be surprised.
Mind you, i am in no way defending the current protoss hate nonsense, just saying this happened before and imo was further stage.
|
@dinomight, 55% PvT is not balanced, it's the same % back when T where ruling over sc2 with gomTvT.
|
On December 18 2013 03:08 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:27 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 00:17 AxionSteel wrote:On December 17 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle). What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens? Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests). I main Protoss but I do also play Terran. When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG. A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings. Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to. Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity . Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight. ROFL. Terrans whining that Protoss is imbalanced on the LADDER. Because obviously it is not imbalanced in tournaments (win rates are very close to 50%). Okay, I can understand given the number of high P on ladder that they'd be upset. So then you give them ideas of things that they can do on the ladder that work for you when you play Terran, and they tell you that FUCKING RAIN AND PARTING can beat these strategies. ???? PROFESSIONAL TvP IS NOT IMBALANCED!! This is just statistics. Ladder Terrans, as demonstrated by this thread, are incredibly stubborn and do not want to listen to anything that can help them. Even from guys who main Protoss who are here giving you suggestions and telling you things that they lose to. TO HELP YOU WIN. I don't understand it. It's like you WANT to lose so you can complain. I bet all TL.net Terrans are into weird S&M and bondage shit too lol. It's fucking ridiculous. Let's go through this logic again: 1) I play Protoss. Obviously I only win on ladder because of my race. 2) I play Terran. I win because my opponents are not Rain and Parting. 3) When I lose as Protoss, I write down the strategies that beat me and then try them as Terran. 4) I win with them as Terran. 5) I go on TL.net to share them with other LADDER TERRANS to help them 6) They ridicule my strategies and go back to complaining about GSL Fuck it. I hope you drown in Psi Storm under the shadow of my Colossi while my Zealots boogie under the disco lights of my Oracles. And the DTs will be there too but you won't see them because they're fucking permanently invisible. Deal with it.
Since you apparently failed to understand it, my post was sarcastic. Blind statistics are also meaningless without an analysis (a) of the forces in presence and (b) of the actual content of the games to know how/why one side won and the other lost. Last but not least, being GM for 10 seasons, your low level offrace Terran isn't going to teach me anything. I know much better than you what's at stake for both sides for any given opening or situation, and I'm the one who could actually teach you both sides of TvP.
|
On December 18 2013 00:38 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:33 Assirra wrote:On December 18 2013 00:18 -Celestial- wrote:On December 17 2013 23:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote:
I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better. Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular. Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad. Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms. No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players.
Not as abusive? Pro players were being called "patch Zerg" (or in other words, shit players riding an IMBA race). Terran was crucified for a good time during early WOL, with many of the non-Terran personalities (Idra, Artosis, Incontrol, etc) making joke after whine about both the race and the players. All of this gets reflected in abuse on the ladder where every bronze to master scrub (or low level pro) will justify his loss with imbalance.
Point is, there has always been whine. When it's directed at the "other" 2 races, it seems fine or funny or legitimate, when is directed at "your" race though, it's unbearable and unjustified hehe
Balance whining is part of what makes competition fun though, like blaming the referee in football. Part of the game IMO.
|
Hey TheDwf - wanna hook me up with some tips so I can lay the smack down on DinoMight? I have plenty of replays vs him for reference :D
|
PROFESSIONAL TvP IS NOT IMBALANCED!! This is just statistics
You don't understand statistics at all. Just look at this information from Aliguac;
PvT = 55% favour of protoss. 985 games played
TvZ = 50%, 942 games played
PvZ = 50%. 1525 games played
Notice the most important stat of them all: Games played! Why on earth are there so much fewer games played with terrans?
I tell you the most obvious answer to that: Terran is underpowered both in competitive tournmanets and on the ladder. This has the effect of only making it possible for the very best terran players to compete in tournaments. Meanwhile, inferior protoss and zergs are being matched up against superior terran players. In TvZ, the superior terran players are roughly even against the inferior zerg players. But in TvP, we see that all these random protosses are beating the very very best terran players.
If the game was balanced, terran should have over 50% w/r on the Aliguac stats (probably close to 55%) !
So just by looking at these statistics, the imbalance is strikingly clear: Terran is by far the worst race in the game and TvP is the most imbalanced matchup of them all.
Source: http://aligulac.com/reports/
The numbers were indeed worse during the Broodlord/infestor area, however it isn't actually that far away today.
|
On December 18 2013 03:16 SolidSMD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 03:08 Assirra wrote:On December 18 2013 00:38 Crownlol wrote:On December 18 2013 00:33 Assirra wrote:On December 18 2013 00:18 -Celestial- wrote:On December 17 2013 23:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote:
I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better. Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular. Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad. Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms. No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players. Again, it was exactly like that so stop saying it wasn't. Patchzerg was a term widely accepted in this forum even by mods for fuck sake. Zergs were hated for the patchzerg era and for months later as well, it wsn't till the hellbat that zergs finally were finally stop being spit upon and even then we had "stop whining asshole, you got your OP moment so suffer now". crap. I think there is a big difference between calling uprising pro's during an OP time for zerg patchzergs and calling random people on ladder faggets/noobs/retards/... because they choose to play protoss (which they probably have been for the last years). I don't mind people calling toss imba that much, what I mislike is the hate and elitism that you get from many terrans.
Ding ding ding ding ding. We have a winner!
That is exactly what is bugging me. Is Protoss strong on ladder right now? Yeah it appears to be. But that does not mean that everyone who plays Protoss only plays it to get easy wins. I've played it since 2010. I suffered through the 1/1/1 era, through the mass infestor beating every Protoss composition era (you know, when we saw 30+ infestors in a few GSL games), through immortal/sentry or die to infestor/broodlord era, why would I stop now? I've seen other people (and have been myself) personally insulted by Terran players just for playing Protoss. There needs to be a line drawn somewhere. Yes there were personalities promoting this attitude in the past about races (especially Idra) but it felt like back then people ignored it for the most part. Now that isn't as much the case and has been like this for a while.
Are there people who switched to Protoss just because they are good on ladder right now? Probably. They are likely the same people who switched to Zerg during the infestor/broodlord era. They are probably the same people who did blind hellbat drops against every race near the end of the HOTS beta. They want the path of least resistance to winning, simple as that. I don't like that they do it but it's not like there is anything we can do to stop it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
