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On December 17 2013 06:20 DinoMight wrote:
Can we get a high level protoss to do the same (but backwards) and see if they can succeed?
I would love to see a Protoss switch to Terran and annihilate everyone.
Or a high level Zerg switch to both and get to GM with both races. Them we could just say,"races dont matter, if your good at SC2, you can play any race."
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On December 17 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 06:20 DinoMight wrote:
Can we get a high level protoss to do the same (but backwards) and see if they can succeed?
I would love to see a Protoss switch to Terran and annihilate everyone. Or a high level Zerg switch to both and get to GM with both races. Them we could just say,"races dont matter, if your good at SC2, you can play any race."
Well, you are wrong. Zerg actually does require less skill 
But yeah.. I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of playing the other races and knowing what they're capable of. Savior did it (he played as Terran a lot). MC plays a pretty sick Zerg I hear. And Taeja off-races on his stream and demolishes people.
Like Jaedong said.. fear of imbalance is more dangerous than imbalance itself. I'd say Blizzard has it close enough that anyone working hard enough should be able to succeed with any race, with the right attitude.
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On December 17 2013 06:30 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On December 17 2013 06:20 DinoMight wrote:
Can we get a high level protoss to do the same (but backwards) and see if they can succeed?
I would love to see a Protoss switch to Terran and annihilate everyone. Or a high level Zerg switch to both and get to GM with both races. Them we could just say,"races dont matter, if your good at SC2, you can play any race." Well, you are wrong. Zerg actually does require less skill But yeah.. I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of playing the other races and knowing what they're capable of. Savior did it (he played as Terran a lot). MC plays a pretty sick Zerg I hear. And Taeja off-races on his stream and demolishes people. Like Jaedong said.. fear of imbalance is more dangerous than imbalance itself. I'd say Blizzard has it close enough that anyone working hard enough should be able to succeed with any race, with the right attitude.
holy shit someone really needs to let avilo know.
Brilliant quote though, yeah. If you go in thinking you're going to lose cuz of broken game, you probably will.
Some required reading for Terran players: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/
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To be clear on the Jeadong quote, that was Xenocider paraphrasing what he learned from Joeadong. I am sure he said something close to that that way little Xino was talking, but it may not have been word for word. Still a lesson to live by, focus on what you can change, which is you.
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On December 17 2013 06:54 Plansix wrote:
To be clear on the Jeadong quote, that was Xenocider paraphrasing what he learned from Joeadong. I am sure he said something close to that that way little Xino was talking, but it may not have been word for word. Still a lesson to live by, focus on what you can change, which is you.
Yeah you're right - I wasn't actually quoting, just paraphrasing. But those are wise words nonetheless.
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On December 17 2013 06:54 Plansix wrote:
To be clear on the Jeadong quote, that was Xenocider paraphrasing what he learned from Joeadong. I am sure he said something close to that that way little Xino was talking, but it may not have been word for word. Still a lesson to live by, focus on what you can change, which is you.
True, but I can understand the frustration of our Terran brethren, though.
The reduction in early game opportunity to press Protoss is limiting. Think about how our openings against Terran, in WOL, were usually (towards the end of WOL) just 1 Gate FE to Robo+2-3 gates etc. We could do little else. The situation appears to have been reversed (at least partially). It is not good. Certainly for competitive ladder players.
That said, I do not believe knee-jerk solutions are the way to go. The MSC is a wonderful addition to Protoss in HOTS enabling flexibility in Protoss game play. The Nexus Cannon is also required. It is useful in all match-ups, and while it allows some Protoss to (at the current time) play too greedy against Terran, it is especially useful in PvP and that MU has flourished as a result. (Although, I am not sure if the Oracle changes have, again, constricted PvP - it is too early to tell.)
As others have suggesed, a tweak to NC duration/range and MSC casting range may be the way to go. But, Blizzard, rightfully sticking to their current approach to give things time, will take a while to see if a tweak is needed. Unfortunately, Terran players will have to make the best of it. Who knows? A solution may arise. SC2 has a history of the wonderful and unexpected.
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On December 17 2013 06:20 DinoMight wrote:
Can we get a high level protoss to do the same (but backwards) and see if they can succeed?
I would love to see a Protoss switch to Terran and annihilate everyone.
I know in WoL MC had an absurdly good offrace Terran.
Also on a side note, BW Flash had a really good (like possible Free level) Protoss play.
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On December 17 2013 07:19 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 06:54 Plansix wrote:
To be clear on the Jeadong quote, that was Xenocider paraphrasing what he learned from Joeadong. I am sure he said something close to that that way little Xino was talking, but it may not have been word for word. Still a lesson to live by, focus on what you can change, which is you. True, but I can understand the frustration of our Terran brethren, though. The reduction in early game opportunity to press Protoss is limiting. Think about how our openings against Terran, in WOL, were usually (towards the end of WOL) just 1 Gate FE to Robo+2-3 gates etc. We could do little else. The situation appears to have been reversed (at least partially). It is not good. Certainly for competitive ladder players. That said, I do not believe knee-jerk solutions are the way to go. The MSC is a wonderful addition to Protoss in HOTS enabling flexibility in Protoss game play. The Nexus Cannon is also required. It is useful in all match-ups, and while it allows some Protoss to (at the current time) play too greedy against Terran, it is especially useful in PvP and that MU has flourished as a result. (Although, I am not sure if the Oracle changes have, again, constricted PvP - it is too early to tell.) As others have suggesed, a tweak to NC duration and MSC casting range may be the way to go. But, Blizzard, rightfully sticking to their current approach to give things time, will take a while to get around to it. Unfortunately, Terran players will have to make the best of it. Who knows? A solution may arise. SC2 has a history of the wonderful and unexpected.
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
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United States23455 Posts
DinoMight, I just have a few questions about your post. Although I am a terran player I am not crying imba at all with this 
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Unit buffs? HotS brought a few unit buffs to terran, but nothing that changes how you play TvP. Medivac speed helps but goes hand in hand with photon overcharge allowing for easier drop defense. Plus, we were building medivacs and dropping anyway. Reapers can now be made with no tech lab, which is nice for openers but obviously they are not units that change how you play the matchup in the mid-late game. Most other buffs came in the form of buffs to mech (combined upgrades, the recent tank buff)
New units? Widow mines are great harassment tools but are really not great in TvP beyond the early game. They are easily killed by stalkers + obs and can be blinked out of. Hellbats are an okay addition to an army against a chargelot heavy composition, but their range and speed makes them colossus food.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Per your request I will not start an argument over the viability of mech in TvP  . But I will say that being that greedy against a protoss is difficult without very careful scouting. Forgoing heavy marine production early leaves you very susceptible to oracles and blink timings are pretty hard to hold as well, with mines not helping much considering stalkers can blink out of mine shots. All that being said, I think you are spot on that terrans are often afraid of the mothership core, and tosses sometimes think too much of them. There are some potential stim timings that can really punish a greedy toss, despite the MSC.
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Nazi mods but dont even move this to blog post FailFish
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 17 2013 08:13 Darkhoarse wrote:DinoMight, I just have a few questions about your post. Although I am a terran player I am not crying imba at all with this Show nested quote +
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Unit buffs? HotS brought a few unit buffs to terran, but nothing that changes how you play TvP. Medivac speed helps but goes hand in hand with photon overcharge allowing for easier drop defense. Plus, we were building medivacs and dropping anyway. Reapers can now be made with no tech lab, which is nice for openers but obviously they are not units that change how you play the matchup in the mid-late game. Most other buffs came in the form of buffs to mech (combined upgrades, the recent tank buff) New units? Widow mines are great harassment tools but are really not great in TvP beyond the early game. They are easily killed by stalkers + obs and can be blinked out of. Hellbats are an okay addition to an army against a chargelot heavy composition, but their range and speed makes them colossus food. Show nested quote +
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Per your request I will not start an argument over the viability of mech in TvP . But I will say that being that greedy against a protoss is difficult without very careful scouting. Forgoing heavy marine production early leaves you very susceptible to oracles and blink timings are pretty hard to hold as well, with mines not helping much considering stalkers can blink out of mine shots. All that being said, I think you are spot on that terrans are often afraid of the mothership core, and tosses sometimes think too much of them. There are some potential stim timings that can really punish a greedy toss, despite the MSC.
Hellbats work really well against Zealots. I agree they suck against Colossus but it's contextual... I wouldn't build Colossus if I saw you had a fleet of Vikings either. When I play T and I see Templar first I usually go for some Hellbats. I've seen both ForGG and Bomber totally annihilate LiquidHerO with Hellbat/Ghost/Marauder.
Also, the new reaper gives Terran the best early game scouting they've ever had. Even with a MsC and Stalker it's hard to hide anything in your base these days. And if the Protoss is trying really hard to deny vision of a corner in his base.. just use a scan to look there - chances are he's hiding something.
Two points I wanted to make:
1) I feel that Terrans are overly scared of the Mothership Core. Sure it's strong in the early game against small 1 Medivac drops, but I actually feel that as the game goes on it becomes pretty irrelevant. I'm finding that against strong Terrans I'm having a harder time in the mid-late game than I did in WoL because they can just boost in 3 Medivacs, drop 12 Marauders, and focus down my Nexus before I can do anything about it. I know that sound stupid, but you learn a lot from playing the other races and that's one of the things I learned when I played Terran, because I knew that as Protoss relying on the Mothership Core for defense is bad past the 10 min mark.
2) Terrans have been very stubborn in TvP. When you think of every other matchup - TvT, TvZ, PvP, PvZ - they have fundamentally changed from how they were played in WoL. Terrans on the other hand are using the same exact WoL TvP builds (with the exception of the early reaper scout). Everyone is doing some sort of rax expand followed by either 3 rax and a CC or 5 rax with a bit more pressure and a later CC. When you do the same exact 2 Medivac timing that you used in Wings, it's just not going to work against an opponent that has a new defensive tool in their arsenal.
These builds need to be redesigned to hit either earlier, before Protoss has enough army units supporting the MsC to defend, or later, in such numbers that the Photon Overcharge is irrelevant. Already I've seen some Terrans begin to go straight for the 3CC without wasting units on drops or anything and then hit with a huge MMM ball and a bunch of Vikings right before my Storm tech is up. That's a really strong push.
Proxy factory widow mine rushes are insanely hard to deal with if not scouted in time. Even with no probe losses.. the lost mining time is so huge that it can put you seriously behind. People just need to be more creative.
(and also I think Hots mech can be viable on certain maps but that's another discussion)
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I really enjoyed watching him give it a go. Thanks. Best of luck forward from here...
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On December 17 2013 00:42 SolidSMD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 23:15 AxionSteel wrote:On December 16 2013 22:47 Rickyvalle21 wrote:On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote:
Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines. How did I know this was coming. Hitman has always been bm since Wol days. I specifically remember kas going on like an 80 game win streak till he hit hitman and he got beat twice and hitman started to aggressively bm. He does it for attention to well known players. I agree people like that should not be able to participate in tournaments. Not mention he is not that good. Idk why these top grandmasters don't see him as free win if they just blind counter his builds. I know be doesn't hack because I've played him myself but something is very very wrong if a player like that is beating top notch players and has such a high ranking. Thing is, bomber scouted it very early, seemed to make all the right moves ( in his opinion) and still lost. That's one of many reasons why people hate on Protoss, at any level, doesn't matter if you somehow get lucky and scout which one of 1223443 allins is coming, it can still kill u anyway Protoss hate will never go away, I think people on the forums will just have to live with that. What is the difference with the 1/1/1-builds that had a couple variations to it? To my knowledge it has roamed around for very long in the wol-days and even if you knew it was coming it could still kill you a lot of the times. Where was the terran-hate back then? Atm I stopped playing protoss on ladder purely because of all the BM you get, only because you play protoss. This is poison for our community, hate on blizzard for the OP nexus cannon or for the insane oracle-dps, don't hate on the people, seriously. It is still a fucking game and for 95% of the community the balance shouldn't matter much for their ranking. I thought the LoL-community was shit...
There was no difference at all. You just have a selective memory. Terran players using 1/1/1 in those days were ridiculed. PuMa copped all kinds of abuse on these forums, even some random butthurt TL writer wrote an article about puma using imba builds to take down a superior player (MC). As for your personal experience, that's just too bad. Protoss will always get more hate because of how it is designed. It's just far more frustrating to play against than the other races. You may get offended, but plenty of other Protoss enjoy seeing people cry. I know I did when I played Protoss
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On December 17 2013 11:20 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 00:42 SolidSMD wrote:On December 16 2013 23:15 AxionSteel wrote:On December 16 2013 22:47 Rickyvalle21 wrote:On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote:
Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines. How did I know this was coming. Hitman has always been bm since Wol days. I specifically remember kas going on like an 80 game win streak till he hit hitman and he got beat twice and hitman started to aggressively bm. He does it for attention to well known players. I agree people like that should not be able to participate in tournaments. Not mention he is not that good. Idk why these top grandmasters don't see him as free win if they just blind counter his builds. I know be doesn't hack because I've played him myself but something is very very wrong if a player like that is beating top notch players and has such a high ranking. Thing is, bomber scouted it very early, seemed to make all the right moves ( in his opinion) and still lost. That's one of many reasons why people hate on Protoss, at any level, doesn't matter if you somehow get lucky and scout which one of 1223443 allins is coming, it can still kill u anyway Protoss hate will never go away, I think people on the forums will just have to live with that. What is the difference with the 1/1/1-builds that had a couple variations to it? To my knowledge it has roamed around for very long in the wol-days and even if you knew it was coming it could still kill you a lot of the times. Where was the terran-hate back then? Atm I stopped playing protoss on ladder purely because of all the BM you get, only because you play protoss. This is poison for our community, hate on blizzard for the OP nexus cannon or for the insane oracle-dps, don't hate on the people, seriously. It is still a fucking game and for 95% of the community the balance shouldn't matter much for their ranking. I thought the LoL-community was shit... There was no difference at all. You just have a selective memory. Terran players using 1/1/1 in those days were ridiculed. PuMa copped all kinds of abuse on these forums, even some random butthurt TL writer wrote an article about puma using imba builds to take down a superior player (MC). As for your personal experience, that's just too bad. Protoss will always get more hate because of how it is designed. It's just far more frustrating to play against than the other races. You may get offended, but plenty of other Protoss enjoy seeing people cry. I know I did when I played Protoss
Haha, i remember that. I used to make SC2 posts on Facebook when the clock struck 1:11. 8D.
Maybe puma should come back and win with protoss since its 'broken' now instead of terran? Can it be done? Can a terran player win with protoss, I assume all the extra apm can come in handy to shit talk the other guy while playing
Edit: realized that the answer is no after I saw the thread title again, lol.
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Hahaha, will watch your stream for sure. Sounds like you have a good start, beating some GM T and Z.
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Godspeed, good sir. I'm sure this will be irrevocable proof that David Kim will not possibly be able to ignore. As a fellow terran myself, this is really interesting since i'm currently platinum but i WOULD BE Masters if it weren't for protoss. =/ This will make eSports history!
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On December 17 2013 09:20 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 08:13 Darkhoarse wrote:DinoMight, I just have a few questions about your post. Although I am a terran player I am not crying imba at all with this
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Unit buffs? HotS brought a few unit buffs to terran, but nothing that changes how you play TvP. Medivac speed helps but goes hand in hand with photon overcharge allowing for easier drop defense. Plus, we were building medivacs and dropping anyway. Reapers can now be made with no tech lab, which is nice for openers but obviously they are not units that change how you play the matchup in the mid-late game. Most other buffs came in the form of buffs to mech (combined upgrades, the recent tank buff) New units? Widow mines are great harassment tools but are really not great in TvP beyond the early game. They are easily killed by stalkers + obs and can be blinked out of. Hellbats are an okay addition to an army against a chargelot heavy composition, but their range and speed makes them colossus food.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Per your request I will not start an argument over the viability of mech in TvP . But I will say that being that greedy against a protoss is difficult without very careful scouting. Forgoing heavy marine production early leaves you very susceptible to oracles and blink timings are pretty hard to hold as well, with mines not helping much considering stalkers can blink out of mine shots. All that being said, I think you are spot on that terrans are often afraid of the mothership core, and tosses sometimes think too much of them. There are some potential stim timings that can really punish a greedy toss, despite the MSC. Hellbats work really well against Zealots. I agree they suck against Colossus but it's contextual... I wouldn't build Colossus if I saw you had a fleet of Vikings either. When I play T and I see Templar first I usually go for some Hellbats. I've seen both ForGG and Bomber totally annihilate LiquidHerO with Hellbat/Ghost/Marauder. Also, the new reaper gives Terran the best early game scouting they've ever had. Even with a MsC and Stalker it's hard to hide anything in your base these days. And if the Protoss is trying really hard to deny vision of a corner in his base.. just use a scan to look there - chances are he's hiding something. Two points I wanted to make: 1) I feel that Terrans are overly scared of the Mothership Core. Sure it's strong in the early game against small 1 Medivac drops, but I actually feel that as the game goes on it becomes pretty irrelevant. I'm finding that against strong Terrans I'm having a harder time in the mid-late game than I did in WoL because they can just boost in 3 Medivacs, drop 12 Marauders, and focus down my Nexus before I can do anything about it. I know that sound stupid, but you learn a lot from playing the other races and that's one of the things I learned when I played Terran, because I knew that as Protoss relying on the Mothership Core for defense is bad past the 10 min mark. 2) Terrans have been very stubborn in TvP. When you think of every other matchup - TvT, TvZ, PvP, PvZ - they have fundamentally changed from how they were played in WoL. Terrans on the other hand are using the same exact WoL TvP builds (with the exception of the early reaper scout). Everyone is doing some sort of rax expand followed by either 3 rax and a CC or 5 rax with a bit more pressure and a later CC. When you do the same exact 2 Medivac timing that you used in Wings, it's just not going to work against an opponent that has a new defensive tool in their arsenal. These builds need to be redesigned to hit either earlier, before Protoss has enough army units supporting the MsC to defend, or later, in such numbers that the Photon Overcharge is irrelevant. Already I've seen some Terrans begin to go straight for the 3CC without wasting units on drops or anything and then hit with a huge MMM ball and a bunch of Vikings right before my Storm tech is up. That's a really strong push. Proxy factory widow mine rushes are insanely hard to deal with if not scouted in time. Even with no probe losses.. the lost mining time is so huge that it can put you seriously behind. People just need to be more creative. (and also I think Hots mech can be viable on certain maps but that's another discussion)
I don't know about the criticism that terrans are 'unwilling/stuborn' to adapt or change things up. Terran had the most adverse openings.
1-1-1 got shutdown due to larger maps and immortal buff
Early ghost pushes due to EMP nerf
Hellbats drops nerfed
Widow mines drops nerf (not worth it even if you get mine burrowed in time due to the AoE change)
banshees opening not viable due to MsC
SCV pull timings that got figured out
mech is just bad because of immortals and chargelots
So basically we are left with bio openings that are slowed down because we are coin flipping if we don't go reaper first. So basically all terrans are left with is bio timings. Although that do sometimes work. But if protoss has enough defense, you fall way behind and the game just snowballs. It isn't like Protoss with blink where they can do a soft contain for them to get their eco back up if they don't want to commit.
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On December 17 2013 15:26 tshi wrote:
Godspeed, good sir. I'm sure this will be irrevocable proof that David Kim will not possibly be able to ignore. As a fellow terran myself, this is really interesting since i'm currently platinum but i WOULD BE Masters if it weren't for protoss. =/ This will make eSports history!
You crack me up, tshi. :D
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Well, if a Terran player finds PvP annoying, then I'm not a weird Protoss player. Actually, I think a lot of Protoss players don't like PvP, so yeah..
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EPT
