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Canada13407 Posts
On December 17 2013 16:12 darkness wrote:
Well, if a Terran player finds PvP annoying, then I'm not a weird Protoss player. Actually, I think a lot of Protoss players don't like PvP, so yeah..
I like it most of the time, its generally been my best matchup. I just seem to kinda get it most of the time it seems like.
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the "anti-whine" brigade is all well and good, but for the most part, top players are not very outspoken about perceived balance and game design flaws. the norm is to shut up and practice harder. is there a relation between this attitude and results? is it impossible to be successful in a game you feel is fundamentally flawed? tough to prove imo
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On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
Furthermore terran can't be greedier because you need 6 marines, a mine or turret potentially by 5.05 otherwise you just flat out die to oracles. This is more than was needed in wings. You also need to make sure you are safe vs blink all ins, robo busts and void busts which require quite different responses.
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On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle). What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens? Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
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I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
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On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote:
I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular. 
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On December 17 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle). What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens? Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests). I main Protoss but I do also play Terran. When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG. A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings. Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
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On December 17 2013 23:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote:
I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better. Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad.
On December 18 2013 00:17 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle). What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens? Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests). I main Protoss but I do also play Terran. When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG. A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings. Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to. Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
Some "TL Forum Protoss" who happens to play Terran as well.
Amused how you skip that part. Not to mention you say "professional TvP" when the incessant whining recently has been about ladder. Which is it? Ladder or professional games? Because in progames the winrates are pretty reasonable.
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On December 18 2013 00:17 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle). What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens? Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests). I main Protoss but I do also play Terran. When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG. A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings. Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to. Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight.
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On December 17 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle). What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens? Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests). I main Protoss but I do also play Terran. When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG. A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings. Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Almost every terran player uses a hellion drop, if you go to ATT they champion the proxy mine, mines to defend oracles have been standard for a while. Our openings don't matter when they all lead to the same 3 units, +2 if it goes to lategame.
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On December 18 2013 00:27 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:17 AxionSteel wrote:On December 17 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle). What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens? Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests). I main Protoss but I do also play Terran. When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG. A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings. Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to. Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity . Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight.
At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses.
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On December 18 2013 00:18 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 23:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote:
I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better. Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular. Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad.
Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms.
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On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
[...] Furthermore terran can't be greedier because you need 6 marines, a mine or turret potentially by 5.05 otherwise you just flat out die to oracles. This is more than was needed in wings. You also need to make sure you are safe vs blink all ins, robo busts and void busts which require quite different responses.
You mean and a turret or how do you deal with dark templars?
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On December 18 2013 00:32 SolidSMD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:27 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 00:17 AxionSteel wrote:On December 17 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle). What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens? Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests). I main Protoss but I do also play Terran. When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG. A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings. Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to. Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity . Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight. At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses.
Anyone who plays the game at a decent level knows that his claims are ridiculous. His offrace Terran is probably no more than Diamond, perhaps low Masters at best, and he just uses the few games he had against bad opponents to justify his vague theorycraft about Terran "not using all their options" (something particularly amusing considering the history of Terran losing tons of options precisely because they were using them).
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On December 18 2013 00:33 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:18 -Celestial- wrote:On December 17 2013 23:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote:
I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better. Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular. Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad. Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms.
No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players.
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On December 18 2013 00:36 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:32 SolidSMD wrote:On December 18 2013 00:27 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 00:17 AxionSteel wrote:On December 17 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle). What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens? Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests). I main Protoss but I do also play Terran. When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG. A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings. Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to. Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity . Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight. At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses. Anyone who plays the game at a decent level knows that his claims are ridiculous. His offrace Terran is probably no more than Diamond, perhaps low Masters at best, and he just uses the few games he had against bad opponents to justify his vague theorycraft about Terran "not using all their options" (something particularly amusing considering the history of Terran losing tons of options precisely because they were using them).
Ok, fair enough, he probably overestimates the power of his build. But opening marine/mine/medivac in tvp isn't that bad as you make it seem, I saw bomber using it vs some NA toss yesterday, later destroying toss army at his third with a nice flank.
It doesn't seem to be a bad opening at all and it gives you plenty of options to deal with protoss all-ins (you have fact and port up already). Yet many terran still choose to open up fast expand and hit with the medivac timing around 10 mins, which every toss prepares for nowadays.
So I really don't see why the opening isn't used more, is there some hardcounter i don't know about? If that is the case, enlighten me.
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On December 18 2013 00:49 SolidSMD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:36 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 00:32 SolidSMD wrote:On December 18 2013 00:27 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 00:17 AxionSteel wrote:On December 17 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle). What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens? Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests). I main Protoss but I do also play Terran. When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG. A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings. Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to. Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity . Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight. At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses. Anyone who plays the game at a decent level knows that his claims are ridiculous. His offrace Terran is probably no more than Diamond, perhaps low Masters at best, and he just uses the few games he had against bad opponents to justify his vague theorycraft about Terran "not using all their options" (something particularly amusing considering the history of Terran losing tons of options precisely because they were using them). Ok, fair enough, he probably overestimates the power of his build. But opening marine/mine/medivac in tvp isn't that bad as you make it seem, I saw bomber using it vs some NA yesterday, later destroying toss army at his third with a nice flank. It doesn't seem to be a bad opening at all and it gives you plenty of options to deal with protoss all-ins (you have fact and port up already). Yet many terran still choose to open up fast expand and hit with the medivac timing around 10 mins, which every toss prepares for nowadays. So I really don't see why the opening isn't used more, is there some hardcounter i don't know about? If so, enlighten me.
Gas first 1-1-1 does exist in TvP, but it's a "niche build" (it cannot be used as a standard). If Protoss scouts it and prepares accordingly, you deal no damage and you're economically behind. See for instance TaeJa vs sOs, Akilon Wastes, at the last Dreamhack: sOs scouted the attack, simply evacuated his natural and held without losing a single Probe. He lost afterwards because he tried something too ambitious and lost two critical Templars, but he was definitely ahead after the opening. Same story in Bogus vs San, Whirlwind, Dailymotion Cup; if scouted, Terran also has to worry about a Stalker counter-attack. While this build can deal lots of damage against an unprepared Protoss or against builds skipping detection/cheating on units to tech agressively (quick dual forge, Dark shrine, etc.), it cannot threaten anything serious against 13 scout + MSC expand into detection (Stargate or robo forge).
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On December 18 2013 00:49 SolidSMD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:36 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 00:32 SolidSMD wrote:On December 18 2013 00:27 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 00:17 AxionSteel wrote:On December 17 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle). What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens? Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests). I main Protoss but I do also play Terran. When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG. A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings. Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to. Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity . Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight. At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses. Anyone who plays the game at a decent level knows that his claims are ridiculous. His offrace Terran is probably no more than Diamond, perhaps low Masters at best, and he just uses the few games he had against bad opponents to justify his vague theorycraft about Terran "not using all their options" (something particularly amusing considering the history of Terran losing tons of options precisely because they were using them). Ok, fair enough, he probably overestimates the power of his build. But opening marine/mine/medivac in tvp isn't that bad as you make it seem, I saw bomber using it vs some NA toss yesterday, later destroying toss army at his third with a nice flank. It doesn't seem to be a bad opening at all and it gives you plenty of options to deal with protoss all-ins (you have fact and port up already). Yet many terran still choose to open up fast expand and hit with the medivac timing around 10 mins, which every toss prepares for nowadays. So I really don't see why the opening isn't used more, is there some hardcounter i don't know about? If that is the case, enlighten me.
This kind of opening ( marine mines medivacs /+hellions) was used extensively at first in HoTs, either with fast expand (see IM build, reaper expand into mines drop) or delayed expand (gaz first mine drop, eventually proxy), it simply got outdated because good protoss defended it too well, and either counter-pressured you to win (3g robo, stalkers + obs ) or entered mid-game with an important advantage (notably on upgrades for forge-based defense with a photon per mineral).
Then they nerfed the mine, and now even vs a non-prepared good toss it's hard to get ahead ^^
Not to mention tons of BO hard-countering this shit blindly (like fe stargate, dt play, or 2 base blink ).
So yeah you can do it occasionally to try punishing non-scouting toss or inferior opponents (see MMA lastly ), buts that's not a reliable opening anymore.
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On December 18 2013 00:59 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:49 SolidSMD wrote:On December 18 2013 00:36 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 00:32 SolidSMD wrote:On December 18 2013 00:27 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 00:17 AxionSteel wrote:On December 17 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle). What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens? Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests). I main Protoss but I do also play Terran. When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG. A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings. Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to. Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity . Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight. At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses. Anyone who plays the game at a decent level knows that his claims are ridiculous. His offrace Terran is probably no more than Diamond, perhaps low Masters at best, and he just uses the few games he had against bad opponents to justify his vague theorycraft about Terran "not using all their options" (something particularly amusing considering the history of Terran losing tons of options precisely because they were using them). Ok, fair enough, he probably overestimates the power of his build. But opening marine/mine/medivac in tvp isn't that bad as you make it seem, I saw bomber using it vs some NA yesterday, later destroying toss army at his third with a nice flank. It doesn't seem to be a bad opening at all and it gives you plenty of options to deal with protoss all-ins (you have fact and port up already). Yet many terran still choose to open up fast expand and hit with the medivac timing around 10 mins, which every toss prepares for nowadays. So I really don't see why the opening isn't used more, is there some hardcounter i don't know about? If so, enlighten me. Gas first 1-1-1 does exist in TvP, but it's a "niche build" (it cannot be used as a standard). If Protoss scouts it and prepares accordingly, you deal no damage and you're economically behind. See for instance TaeJa vs sOs, Akilon Wastes, at the last Dreamhack: sOs scouted the attack, simply evacuated his natural and held without losing a single Probe. He lost afterwards because he tried something too ambitious and lost two critical Templars, but he was definitely ahead after the opening. Same story in Bogus vs San, Whirlwind, Dailymotion Cup; if scouted, Terran also has to worry about a Stalker counter-attack. While this build can deal lots of damage against an unprepared Protoss or against builds skipping detection/cheating on units to tech agressively (quick dual forge, Dark shrine, etc.), it cannot threaten anything serious against 13 scout + MSC expand into detection (Stargate or robo forge).
Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation.
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On December 18 2013 00:59 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:49 SolidSMD wrote:On December 18 2013 00:36 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 00:32 SolidSMD wrote:On December 18 2013 00:27 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 00:17 AxionSteel wrote:On December 17 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:On December 17 2013 23:09 FirstGear wrote:On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote:
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle). What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens? Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests). I main Protoss but I do also play Terran. When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG. A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings. Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to. Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity . Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight. At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses. Anyone who plays the game at a decent level knows that his claims are ridiculous. His offrace Terran is probably no more than Diamond, perhaps low Masters at best, and he just uses the few games he had against bad opponents to justify his vague theorycraft about Terran "not using all their options" (something particularly amusing considering the history of Terran losing tons of options precisely because they were using them). Ok, fair enough, he probably overestimates the power of his build. But opening marine/mine/medivac in tvp isn't that bad as you make it seem, I saw bomber using it vs some NA yesterday, later destroying toss army at his third with a nice flank. It doesn't seem to be a bad opening at all and it gives you plenty of options to deal with protoss all-ins (you have fact and port up already). Yet many terran still choose to open up fast expand and hit with the medivac timing around 10 mins, which every toss prepares for nowadays. So I really don't see why the opening isn't used more, is there some hardcounter i don't know about? If so, enlighten me. Gas first 1-1-1 does exist in TvP, but it's a "niche build" (it cannot be used as a standard). If Protoss scouts it and prepares accordingly, you deal no damage and you're economically behind. See for instance TaeJa vs sOs, Akilon Wastes, at the last Dreamhack: sOs scouted the attack, simply evacuated his natural and held without losing a single Probe. He lost afterwards because he tried something too ambitious and lost two critical Templars, but he was definitely ahead after the opening. Same story in Bogus vs San, Whirlwind, Dailymotion Cup; if scouted, Terran also has to worry about a Stalker counter-attack. While this build can deal lots of damage against an unprepared Protoss or against builds skipping detection/cheating on units to tech agressively (quick dual forge, Dark shrine, etc.), it cannot threaten anything serious against 13 scout + MSC expand into detection (Stargate or robo forge).
Is everyone paying attention? THIS is how you should gripe, and analyze build orders.
Beautiful post, thank you for the game references to be able to see it in action. I would give you TL+, but you already have it.
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