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Ending my protoss journey - Page 13

Forum Index > SC2 General
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igay
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia1178 Posts
December 13 2013 23:14 GMT
#241
sounds to me like he likes to cry about balance a little
MVP <3 MKP <3 DRG <3
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-13 23:20:04
December 13 2013 23:15 GMT
#242
On December 13 2013 21:23 Fliparoni wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2013 21:17 Tosster wrote:
You wouldn't make it, sorry Sjow. Not so "imba" eh?


If you'd bothered to truly read his post you'd know that it was mostly because of the PvP matchup that he's ending his Protoss experiment. His opinions on the other matchups remain unchanged.

the post you quoted still makes sense. If pvt is imba he would eventually do better in pvp than in disadvantaged tvp. He would also do better in pvt (obviously) than in tvt (again, if he had given himself some time). I don't really undertand Sjow's reasoning. U don't give up on a race that you think suits you better and is OP (at the moment) just because there are too many mirror matchups lately.

I'm a zerg if that's relevant.
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
December 13 2013 23:18 GMT
#243
On December 14 2013 04:17 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 04:12 DinoMight wrote:
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote:
Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).

Tough decision to make.


I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.

It's not.

I've played it.

Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.

If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.

It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.

Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.

As far as I can tell, Sjow claims that he tried switching to Protoss for a couple weeks, got to Masters, and then got frustrated by PvP and decided to go back to Terran. You suspect that his real reason is because Protoss turned out not to be as imbalanced as he thought, but do you have any real evidence for that claim? Sjow's narrative is perfectly plausible. If he got into Master's, still had a very good win rate PvT, but had no idea about PvP, does that really prove Protoss is harder than he thought?

I mean, PvP isn't very similar to basically any other matchup (maybe ZvZ), so any Terran that switches is basically starting from scratch trying to learn it. Added to that, most people don't find it very fun, either. If you're just switching for a little while to learn about Protoss play from the other side (probably hoping to get some inspiration about how to play TvP), it wouldn't make sense to invest lots of effort into learning a weird, alien matchup that doesn't really cross-apply to Terran play. So when PvP clearly became the thing holding Sjow back as Protoss, he needed to either commit to switching full-time to Protoss and start trying to learn PvP, or figure this off-racing venture had run its course and its time to go back to Terran.

So couldn't we just not draw balance conclusions either way from this? "Whether or not Sjow made it into GM in two weeks off-racing as Protoss" is hardly a reliable metric of balance anyway.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
GtC
Profile Joined August 2013
United States546 Posts
December 13 2013 23:20 GMT
#244
On December 14 2013 07:40 Natolumin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 07:35 tl2212 wrote:
just play pvt and tvz and tvp?

Well, that's a bit difficult when your goal is to reach top 50 GM on ladder (ladder being the important word here)


What if you did that for tournaments like Morrow did though?
The Turtle Moves
blackone
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany1314 Posts
December 13 2013 23:34 GMT
#245
Is that even allowed in most SC2 tournaments? I know some bw players did it, but I can't think of anyone in SC2.
GtC
Profile Joined August 2013
United States546 Posts
December 13 2013 23:38 GMT
#246
Morrow played Terran whenever he was matched against a zerg.
The Turtle Moves
yokohama
Profile Joined February 2005
United States1116 Posts
December 14 2013 00:09 GMT
#247
On December 14 2013 08:14 igay wrote:
sounds to me like he likes to cry about balance a little


yeah PvP is so imba right?
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
December 14 2013 00:26 GMT
#248
On December 14 2013 01:13 doggy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 01:00 Scarecrow wrote:
On December 14 2013 00:38 Faust852 wrote:
On December 14 2013 00:35 Valikyr wrote:
On December 14 2013 00:30 Faust852 wrote:
On December 14 2013 00:26 Valikyr wrote:
On December 14 2013 00:00 Plansix wrote:
On December 13 2013 23:55 Faust852 wrote:
On December 13 2013 23:54 Plansix wrote:
On December 13 2013 23:50 Faust852 wrote:
[quote]
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.

Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.

Look at him playing, he almost never use these control, except as I said, spamming them early.

I watch his stream a lot with my fiancé, he uses them all the time to mark rally points, to keep an eye on the opponents ramp. He says he uses them out loud during his stream. Why are you trying to tell people map hot keys are bad? They are super useful as Protoss for quick chrono boosting and warp ins.

Almost all pros use them all the time. Don't listen to the silver heros in here.

Silver hero lmao. Srly, these guys..

Saying camera hotkey are ultra important to up into GM is ridiculous considering how much 70 APM protoss there are in GM currently.

I never said you had to use location hotkeys to get into GM. But it seriously compromises the speed and effeciency in which you can do things. I would say that by just not using them your mechanics can instantly be classified as bad.


I consider myself solid (not perfect ofc) at macro and I don't use them, that doesn't prevent me to reach high master, and I know using them won't change a lot my play and my level, as I said in my previous post, there are A LOT of thing to work on before starting to use camera location.

You think you're solid and you think they won't help much based on your vast RTS experience... surely that must outweigh the general consensus that they're really useful. People get to masters all the time with bad habits. It's not hard to start using location hotkeys and it simply makes you faster and more action efficient at taking new expansions and worker transfers. It's especially important later on when your multitasking/apm is stretched and you're looking to take and saturate a 4th/5th. I have nfi why someone who plays the game at a good level would choose not to use them beyond some combination of stubbornness, ignorance or laziness.


Cant speak for protoss or terran here. Im zerg and i havent touched camera hotkeys nor base rotation ever, yet im quite comfortable with my macro in GM league. it doesnt really matter if you use them or not if youre fast and accurate in what youre doing. Also its almost impossible to force yourself to switch using sth new such as camera hotkeys when you never have done it - my muscle memory has been set for this for 3 years now ^^

It doesn't matter if you're 'comfortable'. It could simply be better. You're kidding yourself if you think it doesn't really matter and it's not impossible to switch at all. I'd played BW for 3-4 years before switching to location hotkeys and it was only really uncomfortable for the first few games and felt natural after a week or two.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
December 14 2013 00:41 GMT
#249
Well, so much for "Getting GM as protoss is trivial" (or the top 50 version if you prefer)
Grouch
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada152 Posts
December 14 2013 01:39 GMT
#250
Called it, along with many others.
Sound #1
Cokefreak
Profile Joined June 2011
Finland8095 Posts
December 14 2013 01:44 GMT
#251
On December 14 2013 10:39 Grouch wrote:
Called it, along with many others.

Do you want a cookie for this amazing achievement?
Grouch
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada152 Posts
December 14 2013 01:46 GMT
#252
On December 14 2013 10:44 Cokefreak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 10:39 Grouch wrote:
Called it, along with many others.

Do you want a cookie for this amazing achievement?


Yes, please!
Sound #1
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 14 2013 01:49 GMT
#253
On December 14 2013 08:18 ChristianS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 04:17 Plansix wrote:
On December 14 2013 04:12 DinoMight wrote:
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote:
Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).

Tough decision to make.


I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.

It's not.

I've played it.

Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.

If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.

It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.

Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.



I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance. That specific comment is targeted at all balance whine, not just SjoW's in particular. Fustrated or otherwise, we have terran players in this thread claiming that PvP was out of their control(when they switched) or that map hotkeys are useless. I mostly have a problem with the mentality of "I couldn't possibly be a fault, it is the game," coming from a player that plays at 70 apm and doesn't use map hot keys.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
mcleod
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada350 Posts
December 14 2013 02:06 GMT
#254
maybe he will eventually realize its not the race , but the fact that he has poor mechanics. love moments like these when players switch races and realize the other race has its own problems to deal with.
TRaFFiC
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada1448 Posts
December 14 2013 02:11 GMT
#255
His mech is very impressive. He crushed desrow in a bo1 on ladder. Still though, can't help but think he's selling himself short starting in mid masters (even with gm mmr). He's doing a lot of timing attacks which top gms could probably stop easily and he might develop lazy mechanics like that.
2v2, 1v1, Zerg, Terran http://www.twitch.tv/trafficsc2
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
December 14 2013 02:25 GMT
#256
On December 14 2013 10:49 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 08:18 ChristianS wrote:
On December 14 2013 04:17 Plansix wrote:
On December 14 2013 04:12 DinoMight wrote:
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote:
Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).

Tough decision to make.


I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.

It's not.

I've played it.

Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.

If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.

It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.

Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.



I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance. That specific comment is targeted at all balance whine, not just SjoW's in particular. Fustrated or otherwise, we have terran players in this thread claiming that PvP was out of their control(when they switched) or that map hotkeys are useless. I mostly have a problem with the mentality of "I couldn't possibly be a fault, it is the game," coming from a player that plays at 70 apm and doesn't use map hot keys.


I don't understand that logic?

First of I assume your referring to Sjow's low APM. However, first of all its a big exaggeration as he has 100+ APM (still very slow).

Now, if you aren't talking about Sjow, then why are your talking about not using camera hotkeys and low APM. Many great terran players have higher apm and use camra hotkeys so who are you actually talking about here? Are you adressing those people who believe Sjow deserves a higher rank? That would seem a bit weird as I haven't seen anyone say that.
ztranger
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden57 Posts
December 14 2013 02:33 GMT
#257
Offracing is a good way to get into the mind of that race, GL show! I enjoyed seeing you taking out life!
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 14 2013 02:37 GMT
#258
On December 14 2013 11:25 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 10:49 Plansix wrote:
On December 14 2013 08:18 ChristianS wrote:
On December 14 2013 04:17 Plansix wrote:
On December 14 2013 04:12 DinoMight wrote:
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote:
Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).

Tough decision to make.


I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.

It's not.

I've played it.

Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.

If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.

It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.

Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.



I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance. That specific comment is targeted at all balance whine, not just SjoW's in particular. Fustrated or otherwise, we have terran players in this thread claiming that PvP was out of their control(when they switched) or that map hotkeys are useless. I mostly have a problem with the mentality of "I couldn't possibly be a fault, it is the game," coming from a player that plays at 70 apm and doesn't use map hot keys.


I don't understand that logic?

First of I assume your referring to Sjow's low APM. However, first of all its a big exaggeration as he has 100+ APM (still very slow).

Now, if you aren't talking about Sjow, then why are your talking about not using camera hotkeys and low APM. Many great terran players have higher apm and use camra hotkeys so who are you actually talking about here? Are you adressing those people who believe Sjow deserves a higher rank? That would seem a bit weird as I haven't seen anyone say that.

You are confused with about my statement. Both low AMP and not using camera hot keys are undeniably bad habits and any pro player should try and break. Instead of breaking these bad habits, SjoW complains that protoss is the ez pz race and went on his 13 day adventure to reach top 50 GM. When he didn't make it and became frustrated, he again blamed another aspect of the game, rather than look to what he could have done to do better.

Do you see the cycle? Do you know what Jeadong told Xenocider when the young terran was having trouble with protoss, "Your thoughts of imbalance do more damage than any imbalance ever could." And then a few weeks later Xeno won 10K in Korea.

Friends don't let friends whine about imbalance, because it just makes them crappier players.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
December 14 2013 02:39 GMT
#259
On December 14 2013 11:11 TRaFFiC wrote:
His mech is very impressive. He crushed desrow in a bo1 on ladder. Still though, can't help but think he's selling himself short starting in mid masters (even with gm mmr). He's doing a lot of timing attacks which top gms could probably stop easily and he might develop lazy mechanics like that.

Haha I can't even tell if these first 2 sentences were ironic :D

Regardless, the hour of judgement will come, my fellow Protoss. Don't worry, it will come. In the past, I would have fiercely said "FEAR MY ALL-IN WRATH ON THE LADDER!" but we all know you're not afraid of much of anything Terran does in the first 10 minutes these days, amirite?
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
December 14 2013 02:44 GMT
#260
On December 14 2013 11:37 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 11:25 Hider wrote:
On December 14 2013 10:49 Plansix wrote:
On December 14 2013 08:18 ChristianS wrote:
On December 14 2013 04:17 Plansix wrote:
On December 14 2013 04:12 DinoMight wrote:
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote:
Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).

Tough decision to make.


I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.

It's not.

I've played it.

Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.

If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.

It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.

Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.



I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance. That specific comment is targeted at all balance whine, not just SjoW's in particular. Fustrated or otherwise, we have terran players in this thread claiming that PvP was out of their control(when they switched) or that map hotkeys are useless. I mostly have a problem with the mentality of "I couldn't possibly be a fault, it is the game," coming from a player that plays at 70 apm and doesn't use map hot keys.


I don't understand that logic?

First of I assume your referring to Sjow's low APM. However, first of all its a big exaggeration as he has 100+ APM (still very slow).

Now, if you aren't talking about Sjow, then why are your talking about not using camera hotkeys and low APM. Many great terran players have higher apm and use camra hotkeys so who are you actually talking about here? Are you adressing those people who believe Sjow deserves a higher rank? That would seem a bit weird as I haven't seen anyone say that.

You are confused with about my statement. Both low AMP and not using camera hot keys are undeniably bad habits and any pro player should try and break. Instead of breaking these bad habits, SjoW complains that protoss is the ez pz race and went on his 13 day adventure to reach top 50 GM. When he didn't make it and became frustrated, he again blamed another aspect of the game, rather than look to what he could have done to do better.

Do you see the cycle? Do you know what Jeadong told Xenocider when the young terran was having trouble with protoss, "Your thoughts of imbalance do more damage than any imbalance ever could." And then a few weeks later Xeno won 10K in Korea.

Friends don't let friends whine about imbalance, because it just makes them crappier players.


Im just gonna repeat your quote:

I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance.


Can you clear up the confusion. Is your problem with sjow or somebody else?
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