|
On December 14 2013 06:23 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 06:13 Hider wrote:When was the last time you saw a "top foreign Terran" play a top Korean Protoss in the first place? Most of these foreign Terrans are just like Sjow... they're the types of players that complain about region locking and PvT imba and all that stuff. There are two foreign players that stand out miles above the rest. I don't think it's by accident. They obviously are the hardest workers out there. You got the causality the completely wrong way. There aren't many foreign terrans because of balance issues. For some reason you just assumed that terrans per definition is worse less hardworking players that likes to whine, and that's why we should expect them to perform worse. That seemed like a quite bias'ed argument by you. Why would balance issues weed out foreign Terrans but not Korean Terrans? It's because Korean Terrans (and Protoss, and Zerg) train much harder. They're not born witha genetic predisposition to Starcraft. Meanwhile, foreign Terrans constantly bitch and whine about how imba P is. Sjow does it. Avilo does it. ALL YOUR FRIENDS DO IT. The phrase "Protoss imba" is the worst thing that ever happened to foreign Terrans. It needs to go away.
Unless you have some actual numbers (like hours played per race) that back up your statement that foreign terrans are bad because they bitch about P being imba instead of actually practicing, this is nothing more than opinion and not an actual argument. It is also completely devoid of logical train of thought.
But of course you don't. On the other hand, there are actual stats (and even graphs) that show that protoss representation in leagues rises the higher the league gets, worst being ML and GM.
You name two terran players (Sjow and Avilo) and make a conclusion that all foreign terrans are lazy and just bitch instead of practicing.That is nothing but harsh generalization.
It would be the same if someone said "foreign terrans are the most hard working players because Kas has 20.000 career ladder games"
|
On December 14 2013 06:22 mabla wrote:I don't think thats the right explanation for this peculiarity. Exactly, thats the question to answer! Why are there more Protoss in GM than their share in the playerpool would justify? Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:
Why do Terran throw down with this stat every time they don't have anything else to argue? Because statistics are pretty good evidence in most cases. I mean, you could just lick your finger, put it in the air and state: The wind says everything is balanced. But i personally thinks stats are a better foundation to draw conclusions from. Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:
Do you see zergs breaking this thing out all the time? I don't see the relevance of this topic for the discussion.
Don't feed the troll. He loved his philosophical agruments while rarely added any real content to the discussion.
|
Protoss is a good race but I knew sjow wouldn't go through it cuz of Pvp. Nobody likes Pvp. Most random and unskilled marchup in sc2.
|
On December 14 2013 06:35 Nebuchad wrote:
Now we need a good toss to switch to terran for three weeks and get top 50 GM.
I guess it could be pretty amusing to watch him put down a supply depot near his opponent's natural and then wonder why his marines aren't warping in properly.
|
On December 14 2013 06:42 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 06:35 Nebuchad wrote:
Now we need a good toss to switch to terran for three weeks and get top 50 GM. I guess it could be pretty amusing to watch him put down a supply depot near his opponent's natural and then wonder why his marines aren't warping in properly.
I can see the proxy supply depots already. And the protoss scouts the terran main and panics after counting the number of depots.
|
No offence to SjoW or anything, but I definitely saw this coming. This entire 'I'm switching races to Protoss and get top GM' was just a long dragged out balance whine. I know he's a great player and all, but please, Protoss requires just as much skill to master as Terran. It just so happens Protoss has a few stronger late game units. Stick to Terran SjoW, hope you do well in the future with it 
|
Or over stim because he forgets they don't work like force fields.
|
I'm very happy you tried to switch anyway.
I think your TvP matchup will benefit a lot from it, probably your play overall as well, since you viewed the game from a different perspective in the last 2 weeks.
Best of luck, hope to see you stream a lot anyway in the future.
|
On December 14 2013 06:36 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 06:22 mabla wrote:On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:
Because life is hard I don't think thats the right explanation for this peculiarity. On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:
more Protoss made it into GM. Exactly, thats the question to answer! Why are there more Protoss in GM than their share in the playerpool would justify? On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:
Why do Terran throw down with this stat every time they don't have anything else to argue? Because statistics are pretty good evidence in most cases. I mean, you could just lick your finger, put it in the air and state: The wind says everything is balanced. But i personally thinks stats are a better foundation to draw conclusions from. On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:
Do you see zergs breaking this thing out all the time? I don't see the relevance of this topic for the discussion. Don't feed the troll. He loved his philosophical agruments while rarely added any real content to the discussion.
I don't know, it is quite amusing to read threads where someone continues to chime in their 2 cents of baloney ^^
Toss gets a lot of stick though due to having the highest numbers at high masters/GM in every single server. There is simply no arguments against the fact that it is easier to reach the higher levels with Protoss. But, I wonder how a lot of these no-name players are making the higher levels of league. Is it that Protoss is straight up just easier to play, or is it due to Protoss having a lot more gimmicky play that is surprisingly powerful on ladder, 1 base all ins, oracle cheese, cannon rush, proxy gates etc?
Maybe straight up Protoss players are being misrepresented by a large number of lets call them "cheesey Tossers" who are shooting way above their MMR station due to a wide variety of gimmicky play the have at disposal. At Pro level Protoss has the lowest amount of tournie wins despite being top dogs on ladder for a long time.
|
On December 14 2013 06:53 Swift118 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 06:36 painkilla wrote:On December 14 2013 06:22 mabla wrote:On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:
Because life is hard I don't think thats the right explanation for this peculiarity. On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:
more Protoss made it into GM. Exactly, thats the question to answer! Why are there more Protoss in GM than their share in the playerpool would justify? On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:
Why do Terran throw down with this stat every time they don't have anything else to argue? Because statistics are pretty good evidence in most cases. I mean, you could just lick your finger, put it in the air and state: The wind says everything is balanced. But i personally thinks stats are a better foundation to draw conclusions from. On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:
Do you see zergs breaking this thing out all the time? I don't see the relevance of this topic for the discussion. Don't feed the troll. He loved his philosophical agruments while rarely added any real content to the discussion. I don't know, it is quite amusing to read threads where someone continues to chime in their 2 cents of baloney ^^ Toss gets a lot of stick though due to having the highest numbers at high masters/GM in every single server. There is simply no arguments against the fact that it is easier to reach the higher levels with Protoss. But, I wonder how a lot of these no-name players are making the higher levels of league. Is it that Protoss is straight up just easier to play, or is it due to Protoss having a lot more gimmicky play that is surprisingly powerful on ladder, 1 base all ins, oracle cheese, cannon rush, proxy gates etc? Maybe straight up Protoss players are being misrepresented by a large number of lets call them "cheesey Tossers" who are shooting way above their MMR station due to a wide variety of gimmicky play the have at disposal. At Pro level Protoss has the lowest amount of tournie wins despite being top dogs on ladder for a long time.
It WAS easier, but now the that there is 50% protoss on the ladder, the opportunity to PvT to GM is gone. I think that was Sjow mistake too, thinking that breaking GM protoss is still easy now, and putting up a too ambitious goal. Anybody who can get GM now has to have really good PvP.
|
It's definitely a ladder race, atm. Just like anybody with 2 hands could have gotten into GM in WoL with terran, if they were proxy raxing every game. In HotS, apparently any protoss clown can get GM if they're devoted to all-in'ing enough. It's nothing to be lauded. But, the goal isn't to be a ladder hero. What counts is winning tournaments. If you know your opponent is cheesy and you still lose, well you probably deserve to.
Talking about ladder stats, as if it means anything meaningful, when one race has the best all-in's atm, means jack. Weedamins and maxblack aren't going to be winning the GSL anytime soon. They have a hard enough time/can't get GM as is.
|
On December 14 2013 07:16 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 06:53 Swift118 wrote:On December 14 2013 06:36 painkilla wrote:On December 14 2013 06:22 mabla wrote:On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:
Because life is hard I don't think thats the right explanation for this peculiarity. On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:
more Protoss made it into GM. Exactly, thats the question to answer! Why are there more Protoss in GM than their share in the playerpool would justify? On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:
Why do Terran throw down with this stat every time they don't have anything else to argue? Because statistics are pretty good evidence in most cases. I mean, you could just lick your finger, put it in the air and state: The wind says everything is balanced. But i personally thinks stats are a better foundation to draw conclusions from. On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:
Do you see zergs breaking this thing out all the time? I don't see the relevance of this topic for the discussion. Don't feed the troll. He loved his philosophical agruments while rarely added any real content to the discussion. I don't know, it is quite amusing to read threads where someone continues to chime in their 2 cents of baloney ^^ Toss gets a lot of stick though due to having the highest numbers at high masters/GM in every single server. There is simply no arguments against the fact that it is easier to reach the higher levels with Protoss. But, I wonder how a lot of these no-name players are making the higher levels of league. Is it that Protoss is straight up just easier to play, or is it due to Protoss having a lot more gimmicky play that is surprisingly powerful on ladder, 1 base all ins, oracle cheese, cannon rush, proxy gates etc? Maybe straight up Protoss players are being misrepresented by a large number of lets call them "cheesey Tossers" who are shooting way above their MMR station due to a wide variety of gimmicky play the have at disposal. At Pro level Protoss has the lowest amount of tournie wins despite being top dogs on ladder for a long time. It WAS easier, but now the that there is 50% protoss on the ladder, the opportunity to PvT to GM is gone. I think that was Sjow mistake too, thinking that breaking GM protoss is still easy now, and putting up a too ambitious goal. Anybody who can get GM now has to have really good PvP.
The 50% is only at GM level. Apart from high masters/GM Protoss is fairly equal to Zerg and Terran in distribution terms. I was just stating another reason why Protoss may be able climb to those the high ranks faster and in more numbers rather than just "the race is ezpz".
|
On December 14 2013 06:23 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 06:13 Hider wrote:When was the last time you saw a "top foreign Terran" play a top Korean Protoss in the first place? Most of these foreign Terrans are just like Sjow... they're the types of players that complain about region locking and PvT imba and all that stuff. There are two foreign players that stand out miles above the rest. I don't think it's by accident. They obviously are the hardest workers out there. You got the causality the completely wrong way. There aren't many foreign terrans because of balance issues. For some reason you just assumed that terrans per definition is worse less hardworking players that likes to whine, and that's why we should expect them to perform worse. That seemed like a quite bias'ed argument by you. Why would balance issues weed out foreign Terrans but not Korean Terrans? It's because Korean Terrans (and Protoss, and Zerg) train much harder. They're not born witha genetic predisposition to Starcraft. Meanwhile, foreign Terrans constantly bitch and whine about how imba P is. Sjow does it. Avilo does it. ALL YOUR FRIENDS DO IT. The phrase "Protoss imba" is the worst thing that ever happened to foreign Terrans. It needs to go away.
Korean GM 42% P, 26% T
Last WCS Korea PvT : 56.14%
Last 4 tournaments including TOP Koreans (WCS Korea,WCS Finals,Blizzcom,Hot6ix Cup) - all won by P, 0 T finalists
Finalists of last 10 premier tournaments: P: 9 ,Z: 9 ,T:2
So no Koreans Terrans are not doing well.
|
On December 14 2013 07:30 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 06:23 DinoMight wrote:On December 14 2013 06:13 Hider wrote:When was the last time you saw a "top foreign Terran" play a top Korean Protoss in the first place? Most of these foreign Terrans are just like Sjow... they're the types of players that complain about region locking and PvT imba and all that stuff. There are two foreign players that stand out miles above the rest. I don't think it's by accident. They obviously are the hardest workers out there. You got the causality the completely wrong way. There aren't many foreign terrans because of balance issues. For some reason you just assumed that terrans per definition is worse less hardworking players that likes to whine, and that's why we should expect them to perform worse. That seemed like a quite bias'ed argument by you. Why would balance issues weed out foreign Terrans but not Korean Terrans? It's because Korean Terrans (and Protoss, and Zerg) train much harder. They're not born witha genetic predisposition to Starcraft. Meanwhile, foreign Terrans constantly bitch and whine about how imba P is. Sjow does it. Avilo does it. ALL YOUR FRIENDS DO IT. The phrase "Protoss imba" is the worst thing that ever happened to foreign Terrans. It needs to go away. Korean GM 42% P, 26% T Last WCS Korea PvT : 56.14% Last 4 tournaments including TOP Koreans (WCS Korea,WCS Finals,Blizzcom,Hot6ix Cup) - all won by P, 0 T finalists Finalists of last 10 premier tournaments: P: 9 ,Z: 9 ,T:2 So no Koreans Terrans are not doing well.
This is not statistically significant.
How many PvTs were played at the last WCS Korea?
Also, Taeja alone has won more tournaments than that.
|
just play pvt and tvz and tvp?
|
On December 14 2013 07:21 playa wrote:
It's definitely a ladder race, atm. Just like anybody with 2 hands could have gotten into GM in WoL with terran, if they were proxy raxing every game. In HotS, apparently any protoss clown can get GM if they're devoted to all-in'ing enough. It's nothing to be lauded. But, the goal isn't to be a ladder hero. What counts is winning tournaments. If you know your opponent is cheesy and you still lose, well you probably deserve to.
Talking about ladder stats, as if it means anything meaningful, when one race has the best all-in's atm, means jack. Weedamins and maxblack aren't going to be winning the GSL anytime soon. They have a hard enough time/can't get GM as is.
In WoL there ws always more P than T in GM league. So probably not to much people came with that idea.
|
On December 14 2013 07:35 tl2212 wrote:
just play pvt and tvz and tvp?
Well, that's a bit difficult when your goal is to reach top 50 GM on ladder (ladder being the important word here)
|
On December 14 2013 07:34 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 07:30 keglu wrote:On December 14 2013 06:23 DinoMight wrote:On December 14 2013 06:13 Hider wrote:When was the last time you saw a "top foreign Terran" play a top Korean Protoss in the first place? Most of these foreign Terrans are just like Sjow... they're the types of players that complain about region locking and PvT imba and all that stuff. There are two foreign players that stand out miles above the rest. I don't think it's by accident. They obviously are the hardest workers out there. You got the causality the completely wrong way. There aren't many foreign terrans because of balance issues. For some reason you just assumed that terrans per definition is worse less hardworking players that likes to whine, and that's why we should expect them to perform worse. That seemed like a quite bias'ed argument by you. Why would balance issues weed out foreign Terrans but not Korean Terrans? It's because Korean Terrans (and Protoss, and Zerg) train much harder. They're not born witha genetic predisposition to Starcraft. Meanwhile, foreign Terrans constantly bitch and whine about how imba P is. Sjow does it. Avilo does it. ALL YOUR FRIENDS DO IT. The phrase "Protoss imba" is the worst thing that ever happened to foreign Terrans. It needs to go away. Korean GM 42% P, 26% T Last WCS Korea PvT : 56.14% Last 4 tournaments including TOP Koreans (WCS Korea,WCS Finals,Blizzcom,Hot6ix Cup) - all won by P, 0 T finalists Finalists of last 10 premier tournaments: P: 9 ,Z: 9 ,T:2 So no Koreans Terrans are not doing well. This is not statistically significant. How many PvTs were played at the last WCS Korea? Also, Taeja alone has won more tournaments than that.
I know statistic are usually irrelevant on these forums.
64–50 (56.14%)
Taeja has these 2 Terran spots in finals (Dreamhack and HSC wins)
|
I think SjoW already proved the point by having almost 75% in PvT. He was days away from GM anyways, Imagine if ladder was balanced between races, then he already be GM for sure. It feels like artosis once said there are 4 races terran, zerg, protoss and korean terrans. The fourth race terran struggles in TvP right now no doubt about it.
|
Grass is always greener on the other side hey
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
