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On December 04 2013 00:14 Chewbacca. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer? Has been asked like a thousand times and it has never really been answered expect once Destiny gave some rough figures quite a while ago...may be able to dig that post up if you search his name. But it varies depending on number of ads played, number of viewers with adblock, and I'm sure other things as well.
Time of year matters too. Ad during xmass are worth a lot more than ads in January.
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On December 03 2013 19:13 Nathanias wrote:
:D really happy I could be included here, I suppose it should be easier for you as I cast less community streams and more live events ;D esp since my numbers for my own play have been pretty solid as well
Hah. Best reason to go to more live events, ever. :D It's fine, though, thanks to TL.net's event calendar system. I'll just have to filter out the events you've casted from your account each month, for the most part. 
On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer?
As others have said, there are too many factors in play here to give an accurate estimation. How many people have adblock on? How many ads does a streamer put up? Where are the viewers from (some might not get ads regardless of adblock)?
And then there's the issues such as the streaming service (which in 99% of the cases is twitch.tv) having different conditions for their streamers. Or the issue that some streamers get money from donations and subscriptions rather than ads, and so on.
Every guess one could make would most likely be wildly inaccurate, if not in general, then for specific streamers.
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Yay psy! Glad to see him streaming again!
And avilo slowly climbing the charts...
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On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer?
None of this can be substantiated without input from Twitch.TV, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.
When you're trying to determine how much money someone makes by running commercials on Twitch, the "viewer hour" (V*H) is the most important figure. Every time you run a commercial, you show 1 advertisement to every person watching your stream. That means that it's technically more valuable to stream to 100 people for 10 hours than it is to stream to 500 people for 1 hours. 500 people x 6 commercials x 1 hour (assuming no one runs adblock, you run 6 commericals per hour, and the ad-fill is 100%) = 3,000 commercials shown. Multiply that by your CPM and divide by 1k and you get your theoretical ad revenue. Say you have 3CPM, 3 x 3,000 commercials shown/1000 = $3. Say you show 100 people 6 ads/hour over 10 hours, that means you've shown 6,000 commercials, or twice as many, so your revenue would be doubled, to $6.
This is all theoretical because you could run more or less ads an hour, there will be people using adblock, and the ad-fill is never 100%.
So using that information, we can use my last month's revenue to make some guesses for other people's revenues.
Estimated ad revenue (November): $2,551.80
Looking at the list of viewer hours, you can see that Dragon has less than a third of the V/H that I do. If you divide our viewer hours, you get a fraction, and you multiply that by my ad revenue and you can probably -estimate- that Dragon received about $767.11 last month. Grubby would have received a bit less than that, Catz about 3/4 of that, MaximusBlack a bit less than that, etc...etc...
Hopefully in seeing these numbers you can see why a lot of people are pushing the donation model a lot harder. The streaming revenue has severely declined over the past couple of years, so I can't imagine anyone making a living streaming these days without finding other ways to significantly supplement their income.
Let me know if you need any more insight!
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On December 10 2013 12:14 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer? None of this can be substantiated without input from Twitch.TV, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. When you're trying to determine how much money someone makes by running commercials on Twitch, the "viewer hour" (V*H) is the most important figure. Every time you run a commercial, you show 1 advertisement to every person watching your stream. That means that it's technically more valuable to stream to 100 people for 10 hours than it is to stream to 500 people for 1 hours. 500 people x 6 commercials x 1 hour (assuming no one runs adblock, you run 6 commericals per hour, and the ad-fill is 100%) = 3,000 commercials shown. Multiply that by your CPM and divide by 1k and you get your theoretical ad revenue. Say you have 3CPM, 3 x 3,000 commercials shown/1000 = $3. Say you show 100 people 6 ads/hour over 10 hours, that means you've shown 6,000 commercials, or twice as many, so your revenue would be doubled, to $6. This is all theoretical because you could run more or less ads an hour, there will be people using adblock, and the ad-fill is never 100%. So using that information, we can use my last month's revenue to make some guesses for other people's revenues. Looking at the list of viewer hours, you can see that Dragon has less than a third of the V/H that I do. If you divide our viewer hours, you get a fraction, and you multiply that by my ad revenue and you can probably -estimate- that Dragon received about $767.11 last month. Grubby would have received a bit less than that, Catz about 3/4 of that, MaximusBlack a bit less than that, etc...etc... Hopefully in seeing these numbers you can see why a lot of people are pushing the donation model a lot harder. The streaming revenue has severely declined over the past couple of years, so I can't imagine anyone making a living streaming these days without finding other ways to significantly supplement their income. Let me know if you need any more insight!
I assume that's not even including your subscriber income? Pretty impressive what you've done in that regard, and the Destiny.gg website.
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On December 10 2013 12:23 BlackVelvet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 12:14 Destiny wrote:On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer? None of this can be substantiated without input from Twitch.TV, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. When you're trying to determine how much money someone makes by running commercials on Twitch, the "viewer hour" (V*H) is the most important figure. Every time you run a commercial, you show 1 advertisement to every person watching your stream. That means that it's technically more valuable to stream to 100 people for 10 hours than it is to stream to 500 people for 1 hours. 500 people x 6 commercials x 1 hour (assuming no one runs adblock, you run 6 commericals per hour, and the ad-fill is 100%) = 3,000 commercials shown. Multiply that by your CPM and divide by 1k and you get your theoretical ad revenue. Say you have 3CPM, 3 x 3,000 commercials shown/1000 = $3. Say you show 100 people 6 ads/hour over 10 hours, that means you've shown 6,000 commercials, or twice as many, so your revenue would be doubled, to $6. This is all theoretical because you could run more or less ads an hour, there will be people using adblock, and the ad-fill is never 100%. So using that information, we can use my last month's revenue to make some guesses for other people's revenues. Estimated ad revenue (November): $2,551.80 Looking at the list of viewer hours, you can see that Dragon has less than a third of the V/H that I do. If you divide our viewer hours, you get a fraction, and you multiply that by my ad revenue and you can probably -estimate- that Dragon received about $767.11 last month. Grubby would have received a bit less than that, Catz about 3/4 of that, MaximusBlack a bit less than that, etc...etc... Hopefully in seeing these numbers you can see why a lot of people are pushing the donation model a lot harder. The streaming revenue has severely declined over the past couple of years, so I can't imagine anyone making a living streaming these days without finding other ways to significantly supplement their income. Let me know if you need any more insight! I assume that's not even including your subscriber income? Pretty impressive what you've done in that regard, and the Destiny.gg website.
Yeah, exploring other revenue streams is important for me.
I have my subscriptions that I manage on my website, the money I get from building people computers, the personal sponsorships I have (Feenix, Ting, DollarShaveClub), and the passive income I earn via my Youtube, my Amazon Affiliate Network and my Google Adsense.
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On December 10 2013 12:14 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer? None of this can be substantiated without input from Twitch.TV, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. When you're trying to determine how much money someone makes by running commercials on Twitch, the "viewer hour" (V*H) is the most important figure. Every time you run a commercial, you show 1 advertisement to every person watching your stream. That means that it's technically more valuable to stream to 100 people for 10 hours than it is to stream to 500 people for 1 hours. 500 people x 6 commercials x 1 hour (assuming no one runs adblock, you run 6 commericals per hour, and the ad-fill is 100%) = 3,000 commercials shown. Multiply that by your CPM and divide by 1k and you get your theoretical ad revenue. Say you have 3CPM, 3 x 3,000 commercials shown/1000 = $3. Say you show 100 people 6 ads/hour over 10 hours, that means you've shown 6,000 commercials, or twice as many, so your revenue would be doubled, to $6. This is all theoretical because you could run more or less ads an hour, there will be people using adblock, and the ad-fill is never 100%. So using that information, we can use my last month's revenue to make some guesses for other people's revenues. Looking at the list of viewer hours, you can see that Dragon has less than a third of the V/H that I do. If you divide our viewer hours, you get a fraction, and you multiply that by my ad revenue and you can probably -estimate- that Dragon received about $767.11 last month. Grubby would have received a bit less than that, Catz about 3/4 of that, MaximusBlack a bit less than that, etc...etc... Hopefully in seeing these numbers you can see why a lot of people are pushing the donation model a lot harder. The streaming revenue has severely declined over the past couple of years, so I can't imagine anyone making a living streaming these days without finding other ways to significantly supplement their income. Let me know if you need any more insight!
Ok so I have some questions, this is a subject that I've wondered about for a long time.
So if Dimaga (for example) is streaming to way less people than you are, how much can his sponsorships supplement his salary? I mean, these are pretty bleak numbers. This isn't the kind of money that people can live off so I imagine there's must be a lot of money in the sponsorships......right?
And then how are people like Maximusblack affording to do this full time? I mean, housing+food+heat+lights+internet+car+gas etcetcetc how is it economically possible to stream full time if you aren't pulling in upwards of 3000 people?
Do you think that it's possible to live comfortably or anything close to comfortably on the sort of salary that the lower top 50 streamers pull from twitch ads in combination with whatever money sponsorships can get you?
Another question, how much is a standard team salary (if there is such a standard)? Were you more comfortable financially when you were on a team than you are now with personal sponsorships?
Hope that's coherent, I've been procrastinating all day.
Edit - I guess Dima is a bad example in there, let's say Massan/Avilo to get someone with hours closer to yours.
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I'm guessing the people wondering why DeMuslim is still on EG haven't seen this information or pay much attention to statistics. Heh.
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On December 10 2013 12:37 PcaKes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 12:14 Destiny wrote:On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer? None of this can be substantiated without input from Twitch.TV, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. When you're trying to determine how much money someone makes by running commercials on Twitch, the "viewer hour" (V*H) is the most important figure. Every time you run a commercial, you show 1 advertisement to every person watching your stream. That means that it's technically more valuable to stream to 100 people for 10 hours than it is to stream to 500 people for 1 hours. 500 people x 6 commercials x 1 hour (assuming no one runs adblock, you run 6 commericals per hour, and the ad-fill is 100%) = 3,000 commercials shown. Multiply that by your CPM and divide by 1k and you get your theoretical ad revenue. Say you have 3CPM, 3 x 3,000 commercials shown/1000 = $3. Say you show 100 people 6 ads/hour over 10 hours, that means you've shown 6,000 commercials, or twice as many, so your revenue would be doubled, to $6. This is all theoretical because you could run more or less ads an hour, there will be people using adblock, and the ad-fill is never 100%. So using that information, we can use my last month's revenue to make some guesses for other people's revenues. Estimated ad revenue (November): $2,551.80 Looking at the list of viewer hours, you can see that Dragon has less than a third of the V/H that I do. If you divide our viewer hours, you get a fraction, and you multiply that by my ad revenue and you can probably -estimate- that Dragon received about $767.11 last month. Grubby would have received a bit less than that, Catz about 3/4 of that, MaximusBlack a bit less than that, etc...etc... Hopefully in seeing these numbers you can see why a lot of people are pushing the donation model a lot harder. The streaming revenue has severely declined over the past couple of years, so I can't imagine anyone making a living streaming these days without finding other ways to significantly supplement their income. Let me know if you need any more insight! Ok so I have some questions, this is a subject that I've wondered about for a long time. So if Dimaga (for example) is streaming to way less people than you are, how much can his sponsorships supplement his salary? I mean, these are pretty bleak numbers. This isn't the kind of money that people can live off so I imagine there's must be a lot of money in the sponsorships......right? And then how are people like Maximusblack affording to do this full time? I mean, housing+food+heat+lights+internet+car+gas etcetcetc how is it economically possible to stream full time if you aren't pulling in upwards of 3000 people? Do you think that it's possible to live comfortably or anything close to comfortably on the sort of salary that the lower top 50 streamers pull from twitch ads in combination with whatever money sponsorships can get you? Another question, how much is a standard team salary (if there is such a standard)? Were you more comfortable financially when you were on a team than you are now with personal sponsorships? Hope that's coherent, I've been procrastinating all day. Edit - I guess Dima is a bad example in there, let's say Massan/Avilo to get someone with hours closer to yours.
When I was going to school in Florida, I was living pretty comfortably in a decent place with a roomate on about $600 per month worth of fixed expenses (rent/utilities/etc). If players can get $1000 a month in ad revenue, they're ok if they live frugally (this isn't poverty level I'm talking about, just being super careful with your money). Take Destiny's other points into consideration as well, he's got other avenues for earning money. None of those avenues are impossible to move towards for all streamers.
Can they live comfortably on what they earn through streaming alone? Maybe not on their own, but take into consideration the fact that they can live with family, get personal or team sponsorships (if they're good at marketing themselves), and turn their streams into other forms of revenue as well.
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On December 10 2013 12:37 PcaKes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 12:14 Destiny wrote:On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer? None of this can be substantiated without input from Twitch.TV, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. When you're trying to determine how much money someone makes by running commercials on Twitch, the "viewer hour" (V*H) is the most important figure. Every time you run a commercial, you show 1 advertisement to every person watching your stream. That means that it's technically more valuable to stream to 100 people for 10 hours than it is to stream to 500 people for 1 hours. 500 people x 6 commercials x 1 hour (assuming no one runs adblock, you run 6 commericals per hour, and the ad-fill is 100%) = 3,000 commercials shown. Multiply that by your CPM and divide by 1k and you get your theoretical ad revenue. Say you have 3CPM, 3 x 3,000 commercials shown/1000 = $3. Say you show 100 people 6 ads/hour over 10 hours, that means you've shown 6,000 commercials, or twice as many, so your revenue would be doubled, to $6. This is all theoretical because you could run more or less ads an hour, there will be people using adblock, and the ad-fill is never 100%. So using that information, we can use my last month's revenue to make some guesses for other people's revenues. Estimated ad revenue (November): $2,551.80 Looking at the list of viewer hours, you can see that Dragon has less than a third of the V/H that I do. If you divide our viewer hours, you get a fraction, and you multiply that by my ad revenue and you can probably -estimate- that Dragon received about $767.11 last month. Grubby would have received a bit less than that, Catz about 3/4 of that, MaximusBlack a bit less than that, etc...etc... Hopefully in seeing these numbers you can see why a lot of people are pushing the donation model a lot harder. The streaming revenue has severely declined over the past couple of years, so I can't imagine anyone making a living streaming these days without finding other ways to significantly supplement their income. Let me know if you need any more insight! Ok so I have some questions, this is a subject that I've wondered about for a long time. So if Dimaga (for example) is streaming to way less people than you are, how much can his sponsorships supplement his salary? I mean, these are pretty bleak numbers. This isn't the kind of money that people can live off so I imagine there's must be a lot of money in the sponsorships......right? And then how are people like Maximusblack affording to do this full time? I mean, housing+food+heat+lights+internet+car+gas etcetcetc how is it economically possible to stream full time if you aren't pulling in upwards of 3000 people? Do you think that it's possible to live comfortably or anything close to comfortably on the sort of salary that the lower top 50 streamers pull from twitch ads in combination with whatever money sponsorships can get you? Another question, how much is a standard team salary (if there is such a standard)? Were you more comfortable financially when you were on a team than you are now with personal sponsorships? Hope that's coherent, I've been procrastinating all day. Edit - I guess Dima is a bad example in there, let's say Massan/Avilo to get someone with hours closer to yours.
Sponsorships typically go by the size of your fanbase and how much unique exposure you can get a sponsor. For unique exposure, each individual is important, ie: I'd rather show destiny.ting.com to 10,000,000 people one time than I would 10,000 people 1,000 times, if that makes sense. So Dimaga's sponsorships could be a flat-rate USD deal, where he gets paid $300/month, and it's not necessarily tied to his viewership. I wouldn't know without seeing his figures, personally.
For people like Maximusblack, it's easy to see how they make their live - they promote their subscription services really often. That's why you're seeing a lot more streamers these days going down the subscription based route, where they play sub games on different days of the weak or advertise the top donors for the day etc....anything to drive those donations can play a big factor in how much you make per day off of donations.
I don't think any person right now besides me and maybe the next 1-2 people on the list (-maybe-) could make a living -solely- off of the advertising, that's why people tend to push the subscription/lessons/donation model so much.
It's hard to say how many people below me live comfortably. It depends how much income you need and how lucrative your sponsorship deals are, and it's really hard for me to say how much those are for every other person. Team salaries can help as well.
I'm not sure what the average team salary is. I've never been salaried on any team I've been on; they typically made more off of me from exposure than I made off of them. I usually joined because having someone cover my travel is nice and having teammates to practice with is nice as well.
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On December 10 2013 12:52 Destiny wrote:
Sponsorships typically go by the size of your fanbase and how much unique exposure you can get a sponsor. For unique exposure, each individual is important, ie: I'd rather show destiny.ting.com to 10,000,000 people one time than I would 10,000 people 1,000 times, if that makes sense. So Dimaga's sponsorships could be a flat-rate USD deal, where he gets paid $300/month, and it's not necessarily tied to his viewership. I wouldn't know without seeing his figures, personally.
For people like Maximusblack, it's easy to see how they make their live - they promote their subscription services really often. That's why you're seeing a lot more streamers these days going down the subscription based route, where they play sub games on different days of the weak or advertise the top donors for the day etc....anything to drive those donations can play a big factor in how much you make per day off of donations.
I don't think any person right now besides me and maybe the next 1-2 people on the list (-maybe-) could make a living -solely- off of the advertising, that's why people tend to push the subscription/lessons/donation model so much.
It's hard to say how many people below me live comfortably. It depends how much income you need and how lucrative your sponsorship deals are, and it's really hard for me to say how much those are for every other person. Team salaries can help as well.
I'm not sure what the average team salary is. I've never been salaried on any team I've been on; they typically made more off of me from exposure than I made off of them. I usually joined because having someone cover my travel is nice and having teammates to practice with is nice as well.
Ok cool. Thanks for the reply. Hope twitch doesn't give you shit for posting this stuff, I think it's important for the community to see all this. Good reason to turn off adblock.
Wish me luck on my exam tomorrow so I don't have to try and build a fanbase and stream on twitch for a living.
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When you say CPM - that's clicks per minute? Does that mean you only paid if people click the ad, or is that additional income over someone just viewing the ad?
Overall I am surprised at how little money there is to be made - if the top streamer is only making $2500 a month - that means that a lot of people aren't making much money out of it. It really seems like now that Twitch has established itself as the market leader (probably running at a loss or little profits for the last few years), they are now reducing the quality of their service and how much they pay streamers - in order to maximize profits.
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On December 10 2013 13:20 Drinksarlot wrote:
When you say CPM - that's clicks per minute? Does that mean you only paid if people click the ad, or is that additional income over someone just viewing the ad?
Overall I am surprised at how little money there is to be made - if the top streamer is only making $2500 a month - that means that a lot of people aren't making much money out of it. It really seems like now that Twitch has established itself as the market leader (probably running at a loss or little profits for the last few years), they are now reducing the quality of their service and how much they pay streamers - in order to maximize profits.
CPM = cost per 1000 ad impressions.
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On December 10 2013 13:20 Drinksarlot wrote:
When you say CPM - that's clicks per minute? Does that mean you only paid if people click the ad, or is that additional income over someone just viewing the ad?
Overall I am surprised at how little money there is to be made - if the top streamer is only making $2500 a month - that means that a lot of people aren't making much money out of it. It really seems like now that Twitch has established itself as the market leader (probably running at a loss or little profits for the last few years), they are now reducing the quality of their service and how much they pay streamers - in order to maximize profits.
CPM = Cost Per Mille (Thousand)
It's basically the de facto standard for all advertising nowadays, where your revenue is paid for every 1000 impressions (and usually set by a whole ton of background metrics and marketing estimates). It's generally a more measurable system than the alternatives, which are flat sponsorships or Cost Per Impression.
And from the sounds of what Destiny has said, compared to what others have said across the last three years, it doesn't sound like Twitch has changed their metrics at all.
And $2500 a month might sound low, but for ~2k-4k viewers at a time you really can't expect numbers to be that high.
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EG EG baby baby baby!
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Russian Federation604 Posts
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EG gotta hire Destiny to get that streaming trinity.
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Didn't see Innovation's stream  If someone has a VOD please tell me :D
Btw great work as always !
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Just dropping by to say thank you, always an interesting read
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EPT
