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Welcome this month's edition of the top 50 streamers list. 
This month's edition will be a bit different, as there are barely any WCS numbers to talk about. Well, other than the grand finals, of course. Which (Warning, spoiler!) peaked at about ~150k viewers. So instead of the usual, I'll present my thoughts on the changes for next year's WCS, and what it might mean in regards to viewer numbers. Feel free to let me know if you guys would like more stuff like that in the future.
Table of contents
Huh? What's this?
For those of you who don't already know what this is about: I'm gathering various data (viewers, game, events, etc.) from all the streams that are presented on teamliquid.net (those that you can in the sidebar to your right) and use that data to produce the pretty tables and graphs you see below. The tables only contain SC2 players (that is, streams of people playing games of Starcraft 2) and not casters, teams or other streams. The tables also only contain Starcraft 2 related activities. So, for instance when CatZ is streaming Dota2, it will not be taken into account.
The data I gather is then turned into the tables you see below. One is sorted by the average viewers, the other is sorted by the average viewers times the hours streamed. The latter table favors those that stream a lot, while the former table favors popular streamers regardless of how much they stream. Either ranking has its advantages and disadvantages, and thus I present both.
For either table, I have a minimum required stream time of 5 hours to be included in the list.
The list
Due to space limitations, I have to shorten the headers and leave some data out of the tables presented here. You can get the full tables from the links below.
The headers aren't as clear as I'd like them to be thanks to this, so here's a quick explanation, just in case: "Viewers" denotes the average viewers in the given month. "Hours" are the hours played. "Place diff" and "Viewer diff" are the place and viewer differences compared to last month.
Also, the HTML version linked beneath the images has some more information that I had to leave out due to space limitation, most notably the featured status of the players.
Also also, go and check out Fuzic! Stijn created the awesome looking website with all kinds of stream viewership data. It's much better suited for immediate numbers and analyzing numbers from singular events. Also, it's way prettier than anything I could've ever design. (Note that his project is completely independent from mine, so if you have any questions about it, please ask him and not me.  )
Now, Without further ado, here's this month's tables:
Stray observations and musings
- Destiny has been dethroned! The tyrant himself, Jaedong, leads this month's list with a comfortable lead over Destiny, almost doubling his average viewers.
- On the other hand, no one beats Destiny when it comes to the V*H ranking. Streaming for almost 200 hours and still having ~3500 viewers on average is mightily impressive.
- INnoVation has been streaming, and he unsurprisingly did pretty well.
- Another legend that started streaming was Stork. His numbers are not quite as impressive, which does make the BW fan in me kind of sad. But to be realistic, he has been quite underwhelming in SC2 so far, with no results of note in his name. Let's hope he will return to his former glory and dethrone Jaedong as the eternal 2nd place finisher.
- HuK pretty much lost all the viewers he gained in the previous month. But he only streamed a handful of hours, so I wouldn't read too much into that.
- I am going to include everybody's favorite guy Nathanias in the rankings from now on, as he's actually playing a good bit on his stream these days. Even though it's going to be a bitch to exclude the viewer numbers from his casts done on the same stream each month.
- Here's some information on some of the lesser known names in the lists:
 Hui:Hui is a Taiwanese player who is mostly playing in the TeSL. His fanbase seems to be found mostly outside of teamliquid and in the Taiwanese community, unsurprisingly.
- Tara Babcock: She's an, ahem, model. Google her.
 KingCobra: He's a Russian streamer and commentator, mostly playing daily and weekly cups.
- PsY is "an American Zerg player and YouTuber", says Liquipedia. And who am I to distrust Liquipedia?
- Notable absentees last month: Nerchio, TaeJa (too busy making money), Snute, LucifroN, San, Socke, SaSe.
- If you find any mistakes or errors in the lists, please do let me know, especially concerning team changes or players that you are absolutely sure should be on the lists, but are not.
The big picture
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/Monthly%20viewers%202013%2011.png) (The actual numbers are not important, it's the ratio between month that's important.)
Note that these are player streams only. Also note that matplotlib doesn't like me and creates way too much white space for some reason. Halp.
For our player streamers, things are looking a little better. November saw very little WCS action (other than the grand finals, of course), and thus there was more breathing room for other events and streamers to shine.
There won't be any WCS at all this month, so the trend might continue. Of course, it's also December, and so there's always Christmas and New Year's in the way, so my guess is that we still might see a dip in numbers next month, both due to lower interest in streams, but also due to less streams being available. Players got to open their presents, too.
Overall stream views
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/Monthly%20viewers%202013%2011 all.png) (The actual numbers are not important, it's the ratio between month that's important.)
Overall, things look pretty stable. You might have expected a noticeable jump due to the WCS grand finals, but one event usually does not have that much of an impact, even one with a peak of ~150k viewers. In addition, there was barely any other WCS event going on in November.
Speaking of which, the plans for WCS are out by now, and they've certainly been discussed to death by now here, on reddit and wherever else people talk passionately about SC2. But I might as well give my take on it, while I'm at it.
I have pointed out numerous times in thesemonthly threads that there is so much WCS content that it is easily drowning out both other events (who often had a hard time finding a good date for their events that would not conflict with anything WCS) as well as player streams (player stream numbers tank as soon as a WCS even was on, and more often than not, there was a WCS event on practically every day).
Apparently Blizzard has a similar view, and so they are going to reduce the number of streaming days (down to perhaps 2 a week per region) as well as getting rid of the local season finals. I'm with the majority on this that this is a very good move, and that this most definitely will give everyone outside of WCS some breathing room to get some attention from you, the viewer. And due to that, I fully expect the player streams to slowly gain more viewers again over time (at least compared to the overall SC2 viewer rate, I dare not make any assumptions about the game's popularity itself).
However, I remain curious and/or skeptical about what this will do to the overall viewer numbers. Sure, a streamer can just turn on his stream and start playing when there's no WCS on a given day. But it's not quite as simple to organize, produce and host a full event when there's no WCS on a given weekend. It's unlikely that we'll be getting MLG back just because there will be less potential scheduling problems next year. WCS was omnipresent this year, at times hurting other events. Next year, WCS will leave a bit of a void, and it will not be a given that said void will be automatically (re)filled by other events again.
But then again, maybe it will. I'd like to think that I'm more of a "the glass is half full" kind of guy, and this is certainly an opportunity for new events to step in (Hi, Red Bull!) and show that there can be a successful scene outside of WCS.
GSTL vs. ATC
Not a whole lot to say here. ATC numbers are still varying quite a bit, depending on who is playing and who is casting, while the GSTL finals had the same fate as pretty much every other Korean team league finals. Us foreigners are just more interested in individual leagues.
So that's all for this month.
Hope you guys enjoyed, as always. Any kind of feedback is always welcome!
Older entries
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thx as always conti <3
im teamless as of yesterday tho. nexmultigaming sadly disbanded 
+ on both lists for the first time!! cheers
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thanks alot for these.
kinda sad the gstl final got so few views, it used to be such an important tournament
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KnowMe for president .... eeeh.... FEATURED! :-)
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KnowMe is one of the guys who are eally nice and with a big potencial i hope he can join a team soon would be happy to see that greetings from ur comunity "delorean"
indeeed of Vampyr KnowMe for präsident!
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Canada16217 Posts
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Thanks you for your amazing work !
But I'm sure that LucifroN streamed a few hours, maybe not enough hours to be on the ranking.
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You didn't count the viewers from Battle.net stream for WCS right ? Because I think a lot of people watched it as it was way smoother than Twitch.
Other than that, thank you for your work once again !
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Please feature nexKnowme, he deserves it! :D
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
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your Country52797 Posts
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Protech and PainUser are insane as usual. Hats off to those guys.
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On December 03 2013 03:48 Boucot wrote:
You didn't count the viewers from Battle.net stream for WCS right ? Because I think a lot of people watched it as it was way smoother than Twitch.
Other than that, thank you for your work once again !
The 150k figure is from twitch.tv only, yes. As far as I know, there has been no word from Blizzard on how many viewers their own stream had.
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:D really happy I could be included here, I suppose it should be easier for you as I cast less community streams and more live events ;D esp since my numbers for my own play have been pretty solid as well
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How much money do the players get per viewer?
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On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer?
Has been asked like a thousand times and it has never really been answered expect once Destiny gave some rough figures quite a while ago...may be able to dig that post up if you search his name. But it varies depending on number of ads played, number of viewers with adblock, and I'm sure other things as well.
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On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer?
Assuming $2 CPM, 50% of all viewers receive adds. Each player makes 10 adds/hour, then someone with 100K total hour views in one month earned the following:
Earnings = 2 * 100*0.5*10 = $1000
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Thanks for all the work again!
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Thanks for this! Glad to see player streams doing better.
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On December 04 2013 00:14 Chewbacca. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer? Has been asked like a thousand times and it has never really been answered expect once Destiny gave some rough figures quite a while ago...may be able to dig that post up if you search his name. But it varies depending on number of ads played, number of viewers with adblock, and I'm sure other things as well.
Time of year matters too. Ad during xmass are worth a lot more than ads in January.
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On December 03 2013 19:13 Nathanias wrote:
:D really happy I could be included here, I suppose it should be easier for you as I cast less community streams and more live events ;D esp since my numbers for my own play have been pretty solid as well
Hah. Best reason to go to more live events, ever. :D It's fine, though, thanks to TL.net's event calendar system. I'll just have to filter out the events you've casted from your account each month, for the most part.
On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer?
As others have said, there are too many factors in play here to give an accurate estimation. How many people have adblock on? How many ads does a streamer put up? Where are the viewers from (some might not get ads regardless of adblock)?
And then there's the issues such as the streaming service (which in 99% of the cases is twitch.tv) having different conditions for their streamers. Or the issue that some streamers get money from donations and subscriptions rather than ads, and so on.
Every guess one could make would most likely be wildly inaccurate, if not in general, then for specific streamers.
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Yay psy! Glad to see him streaming again!
And avilo slowly climbing the charts...
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On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer?
None of this can be substantiated without input from Twitch.TV, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.
When you're trying to determine how much money someone makes by running commercials on Twitch, the "viewer hour" (V*H) is the most important figure. Every time you run a commercial, you show 1 advertisement to every person watching your stream. That means that it's technically more valuable to stream to 100 people for 10 hours than it is to stream to 500 people for 1 hours. 500 people x 6 commercials x 1 hour (assuming no one runs adblock, you run 6 commericals per hour, and the ad-fill is 100%) = 3,000 commercials shown. Multiply that by your CPM and divide by 1k and you get your theoretical ad revenue. Say you have 3CPM, 3 x 3,000 commercials shown/1000 = $3. Say you show 100 people 6 ads/hour over 10 hours, that means you've shown 6,000 commercials, or twice as many, so your revenue would be doubled, to $6.
This is all theoretical because you could run more or less ads an hour, there will be people using adblock, and the ad-fill is never 100%.
So using that information, we can use my last month's revenue to make some guesses for other people's revenues.
Estimated ad revenue (November): $2,551.80
Looking at the list of viewer hours, you can see that Dragon has less than a third of the V/H that I do. If you divide our viewer hours, you get a fraction, and you multiply that by my ad revenue and you can probably -estimate- that Dragon received about $767.11 last month. Grubby would have received a bit less than that, Catz about 3/4 of that, MaximusBlack a bit less than that, etc...etc...
Hopefully in seeing these numbers you can see why a lot of people are pushing the donation model a lot harder. The streaming revenue has severely declined over the past couple of years, so I can't imagine anyone making a living streaming these days without finding other ways to significantly supplement their income.
Let me know if you need any more insight!
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On December 10 2013 12:14 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer? None of this can be substantiated without input from Twitch.TV, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. When you're trying to determine how much money someone makes by running commercials on Twitch, the "viewer hour" (V*H) is the most important figure. Every time you run a commercial, you show 1 advertisement to every person watching your stream. That means that it's technically more valuable to stream to 100 people for 10 hours than it is to stream to 500 people for 1 hours. 500 people x 6 commercials x 1 hour (assuming no one runs adblock, you run 6 commericals per hour, and the ad-fill is 100%) = 3,000 commercials shown. Multiply that by your CPM and divide by 1k and you get your theoretical ad revenue. Say you have 3CPM, 3 x 3,000 commercials shown/1000 = $3. Say you show 100 people 6 ads/hour over 10 hours, that means you've shown 6,000 commercials, or twice as many, so your revenue would be doubled, to $6. This is all theoretical because you could run more or less ads an hour, there will be people using adblock, and the ad-fill is never 100%. So using that information, we can use my last month's revenue to make some guesses for other people's revenues. Looking at the list of viewer hours, you can see that Dragon has less than a third of the V/H that I do. If you divide our viewer hours, you get a fraction, and you multiply that by my ad revenue and you can probably -estimate- that Dragon received about $767.11 last month. Grubby would have received a bit less than that, Catz about 3/4 of that, MaximusBlack a bit less than that, etc...etc... Hopefully in seeing these numbers you can see why a lot of people are pushing the donation model a lot harder. The streaming revenue has severely declined over the past couple of years, so I can't imagine anyone making a living streaming these days without finding other ways to significantly supplement their income. Let me know if you need any more insight!
I assume that's not even including your subscriber income? Pretty impressive what you've done in that regard, and the Destiny.gg website.
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On December 10 2013 12:23 BlackVelvet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 12:14 Destiny wrote:On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer? None of this can be substantiated without input from Twitch.TV, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. When you're trying to determine how much money someone makes by running commercials on Twitch, the "viewer hour" (V*H) is the most important figure. Every time you run a commercial, you show 1 advertisement to every person watching your stream. That means that it's technically more valuable to stream to 100 people for 10 hours than it is to stream to 500 people for 1 hours. 500 people x 6 commercials x 1 hour (assuming no one runs adblock, you run 6 commericals per hour, and the ad-fill is 100%) = 3,000 commercials shown. Multiply that by your CPM and divide by 1k and you get your theoretical ad revenue. Say you have 3CPM, 3 x 3,000 commercials shown/1000 = $3. Say you show 100 people 6 ads/hour over 10 hours, that means you've shown 6,000 commercials, or twice as many, so your revenue would be doubled, to $6. This is all theoretical because you could run more or less ads an hour, there will be people using adblock, and the ad-fill is never 100%. So using that information, we can use my last month's revenue to make some guesses for other people's revenues. Estimated ad revenue (November): $2,551.80 Looking at the list of viewer hours, you can see that Dragon has less than a third of the V/H that I do. If you divide our viewer hours, you get a fraction, and you multiply that by my ad revenue and you can probably -estimate- that Dragon received about $767.11 last month. Grubby would have received a bit less than that, Catz about 3/4 of that, MaximusBlack a bit less than that, etc...etc... Hopefully in seeing these numbers you can see why a lot of people are pushing the donation model a lot harder. The streaming revenue has severely declined over the past couple of years, so I can't imagine anyone making a living streaming these days without finding other ways to significantly supplement their income. Let me know if you need any more insight! I assume that's not even including your subscriber income? Pretty impressive what you've done in that regard, and the Destiny.gg website.
Yeah, exploring other revenue streams is important for me.
I have my subscriptions that I manage on my website, the money I get from building people computers, the personal sponsorships I have (Feenix, Ting, DollarShaveClub), and the passive income I earn via my Youtube, my Amazon Affiliate Network and my Google Adsense.
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On December 10 2013 12:14 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer? None of this can be substantiated without input from Twitch.TV, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. When you're trying to determine how much money someone makes by running commercials on Twitch, the "viewer hour" (V*H) is the most important figure. Every time you run a commercial, you show 1 advertisement to every person watching your stream. That means that it's technically more valuable to stream to 100 people for 10 hours than it is to stream to 500 people for 1 hours. 500 people x 6 commercials x 1 hour (assuming no one runs adblock, you run 6 commericals per hour, and the ad-fill is 100%) = 3,000 commercials shown. Multiply that by your CPM and divide by 1k and you get your theoretical ad revenue. Say you have 3CPM, 3 x 3,000 commercials shown/1000 = $3. Say you show 100 people 6 ads/hour over 10 hours, that means you've shown 6,000 commercials, or twice as many, so your revenue would be doubled, to $6. This is all theoretical because you could run more or less ads an hour, there will be people using adblock, and the ad-fill is never 100%. So using that information, we can use my last month's revenue to make some guesses for other people's revenues. Looking at the list of viewer hours, you can see that Dragon has less than a third of the V/H that I do. If you divide our viewer hours, you get a fraction, and you multiply that by my ad revenue and you can probably -estimate- that Dragon received about $767.11 last month. Grubby would have received a bit less than that, Catz about 3/4 of that, MaximusBlack a bit less than that, etc...etc... Hopefully in seeing these numbers you can see why a lot of people are pushing the donation model a lot harder. The streaming revenue has severely declined over the past couple of years, so I can't imagine anyone making a living streaming these days without finding other ways to significantly supplement their income. Let me know if you need any more insight!
Ok so I have some questions, this is a subject that I've wondered about for a long time.
So if Dimaga (for example) is streaming to way less people than you are, how much can his sponsorships supplement his salary? I mean, these are pretty bleak numbers. This isn't the kind of money that people can live off so I imagine there's must be a lot of money in the sponsorships......right?
And then how are people like Maximusblack affording to do this full time? I mean, housing+food+heat+lights+internet+car+gas etcetcetc how is it economically possible to stream full time if you aren't pulling in upwards of 3000 people?
Do you think that it's possible to live comfortably or anything close to comfortably on the sort of salary that the lower top 50 streamers pull from twitch ads in combination with whatever money sponsorships can get you?
Another question, how much is a standard team salary (if there is such a standard)? Were you more comfortable financially when you were on a team than you are now with personal sponsorships?
Hope that's coherent, I've been procrastinating all day.
Edit - I guess Dima is a bad example in there, let's say Massan/Avilo to get someone with hours closer to yours.
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I'm guessing the people wondering why DeMuslim is still on EG haven't seen this information or pay much attention to statistics. Heh.
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On December 10 2013 12:37 PcaKes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 12:14 Destiny wrote:On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer? None of this can be substantiated without input from Twitch.TV, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. When you're trying to determine how much money someone makes by running commercials on Twitch, the "viewer hour" (V*H) is the most important figure. Every time you run a commercial, you show 1 advertisement to every person watching your stream. That means that it's technically more valuable to stream to 100 people for 10 hours than it is to stream to 500 people for 1 hours. 500 people x 6 commercials x 1 hour (assuming no one runs adblock, you run 6 commericals per hour, and the ad-fill is 100%) = 3,000 commercials shown. Multiply that by your CPM and divide by 1k and you get your theoretical ad revenue. Say you have 3CPM, 3 x 3,000 commercials shown/1000 = $3. Say you show 100 people 6 ads/hour over 10 hours, that means you've shown 6,000 commercials, or twice as many, so your revenue would be doubled, to $6. This is all theoretical because you could run more or less ads an hour, there will be people using adblock, and the ad-fill is never 100%. So using that information, we can use my last month's revenue to make some guesses for other people's revenues. Estimated ad revenue (November): $2,551.80 Looking at the list of viewer hours, you can see that Dragon has less than a third of the V/H that I do. If you divide our viewer hours, you get a fraction, and you multiply that by my ad revenue and you can probably -estimate- that Dragon received about $767.11 last month. Grubby would have received a bit less than that, Catz about 3/4 of that, MaximusBlack a bit less than that, etc...etc... Hopefully in seeing these numbers you can see why a lot of people are pushing the donation model a lot harder. The streaming revenue has severely declined over the past couple of years, so I can't imagine anyone making a living streaming these days without finding other ways to significantly supplement their income. Let me know if you need any more insight! Ok so I have some questions, this is a subject that I've wondered about for a long time. So if Dimaga (for example) is streaming to way less people than you are, how much can his sponsorships supplement his salary? I mean, these are pretty bleak numbers. This isn't the kind of money that people can live off so I imagine there's must be a lot of money in the sponsorships......right? And then how are people like Maximusblack affording to do this full time? I mean, housing+food+heat+lights+internet+car+gas etcetcetc how is it economically possible to stream full time if you aren't pulling in upwards of 3000 people? Do you think that it's possible to live comfortably or anything close to comfortably on the sort of salary that the lower top 50 streamers pull from twitch ads in combination with whatever money sponsorships can get you? Another question, how much is a standard team salary (if there is such a standard)? Were you more comfortable financially when you were on a team than you are now with personal sponsorships? Hope that's coherent, I've been procrastinating all day. Edit - I guess Dima is a bad example in there, let's say Massan/Avilo to get someone with hours closer to yours.
When I was going to school in Florida, I was living pretty comfortably in a decent place with a roomate on about $600 per month worth of fixed expenses (rent/utilities/etc). If players can get $1000 a month in ad revenue, they're ok if they live frugally (this isn't poverty level I'm talking about, just being super careful with your money). Take Destiny's other points into consideration as well, he's got other avenues for earning money. None of those avenues are impossible to move towards for all streamers.
Can they live comfortably on what they earn through streaming alone? Maybe not on their own, but take into consideration the fact that they can live with family, get personal or team sponsorships (if they're good at marketing themselves), and turn their streams into other forms of revenue as well.
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On December 10 2013 12:37 PcaKes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 12:14 Destiny wrote:On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer? None of this can be substantiated without input from Twitch.TV, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. When you're trying to determine how much money someone makes by running commercials on Twitch, the "viewer hour" (V*H) is the most important figure. Every time you run a commercial, you show 1 advertisement to every person watching your stream. That means that it's technically more valuable to stream to 100 people for 10 hours than it is to stream to 500 people for 1 hours. 500 people x 6 commercials x 1 hour (assuming no one runs adblock, you run 6 commericals per hour, and the ad-fill is 100%) = 3,000 commercials shown. Multiply that by your CPM and divide by 1k and you get your theoretical ad revenue. Say you have 3CPM, 3 x 3,000 commercials shown/1000 = $3. Say you show 100 people 6 ads/hour over 10 hours, that means you've shown 6,000 commercials, or twice as many, so your revenue would be doubled, to $6. This is all theoretical because you could run more or less ads an hour, there will be people using adblock, and the ad-fill is never 100%. So using that information, we can use my last month's revenue to make some guesses for other people's revenues. Estimated ad revenue (November): $2,551.80 Looking at the list of viewer hours, you can see that Dragon has less than a third of the V/H that I do. If you divide our viewer hours, you get a fraction, and you multiply that by my ad revenue and you can probably -estimate- that Dragon received about $767.11 last month. Grubby would have received a bit less than that, Catz about 3/4 of that, MaximusBlack a bit less than that, etc...etc... Hopefully in seeing these numbers you can see why a lot of people are pushing the donation model a lot harder. The streaming revenue has severely declined over the past couple of years, so I can't imagine anyone making a living streaming these days without finding other ways to significantly supplement their income. Let me know if you need any more insight! Ok so I have some questions, this is a subject that I've wondered about for a long time. So if Dimaga (for example) is streaming to way less people than you are, how much can his sponsorships supplement his salary? I mean, these are pretty bleak numbers. This isn't the kind of money that people can live off so I imagine there's must be a lot of money in the sponsorships......right? And then how are people like Maximusblack affording to do this full time? I mean, housing+food+heat+lights+internet+car+gas etcetcetc how is it economically possible to stream full time if you aren't pulling in upwards of 3000 people? Do you think that it's possible to live comfortably or anything close to comfortably on the sort of salary that the lower top 50 streamers pull from twitch ads in combination with whatever money sponsorships can get you? Another question, how much is a standard team salary (if there is such a standard)? Were you more comfortable financially when you were on a team than you are now with personal sponsorships? Hope that's coherent, I've been procrastinating all day. Edit - I guess Dima is a bad example in there, let's say Massan/Avilo to get someone with hours closer to yours.
Sponsorships typically go by the size of your fanbase and how much unique exposure you can get a sponsor. For unique exposure, each individual is important, ie: I'd rather show destiny.ting.com to 10,000,000 people one time than I would 10,000 people 1,000 times, if that makes sense. So Dimaga's sponsorships could be a flat-rate USD deal, where he gets paid $300/month, and it's not necessarily tied to his viewership. I wouldn't know without seeing his figures, personally.
For people like Maximusblack, it's easy to see how they make their live - they promote their subscription services really often. That's why you're seeing a lot more streamers these days going down the subscription based route, where they play sub games on different days of the weak or advertise the top donors for the day etc....anything to drive those donations can play a big factor in how much you make per day off of donations.
I don't think any person right now besides me and maybe the next 1-2 people on the list (-maybe-) could make a living -solely- off of the advertising, that's why people tend to push the subscription/lessons/donation model so much.
It's hard to say how many people below me live comfortably. It depends how much income you need and how lucrative your sponsorship deals are, and it's really hard for me to say how much those are for every other person. Team salaries can help as well.
I'm not sure what the average team salary is. I've never been salaried on any team I've been on; they typically made more off of me from exposure than I made off of them. I usually joined because having someone cover my travel is nice and having teammates to practice with is nice as well.
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On December 10 2013 12:52 Destiny wrote:
Sponsorships typically go by the size of your fanbase and how much unique exposure you can get a sponsor. For unique exposure, each individual is important, ie: I'd rather show destiny.ting.com to 10,000,000 people one time than I would 10,000 people 1,000 times, if that makes sense. So Dimaga's sponsorships could be a flat-rate USD deal, where he gets paid $300/month, and it's not necessarily tied to his viewership. I wouldn't know without seeing his figures, personally.
For people like Maximusblack, it's easy to see how they make their live - they promote their subscription services really often. That's why you're seeing a lot more streamers these days going down the subscription based route, where they play sub games on different days of the weak or advertise the top donors for the day etc....anything to drive those donations can play a big factor in how much you make per day off of donations.
I don't think any person right now besides me and maybe the next 1-2 people on the list (-maybe-) could make a living -solely- off of the advertising, that's why people tend to push the subscription/lessons/donation model so much.
It's hard to say how many people below me live comfortably. It depends how much income you need and how lucrative your sponsorship deals are, and it's really hard for me to say how much those are for every other person. Team salaries can help as well.
I'm not sure what the average team salary is. I've never been salaried on any team I've been on; they typically made more off of me from exposure than I made off of them. I usually joined because having someone cover my travel is nice and having teammates to practice with is nice as well.
Ok cool. Thanks for the reply. Hope twitch doesn't give you shit for posting this stuff, I think it's important for the community to see all this. Good reason to turn off adblock.
Wish me luck on my exam tomorrow so I don't have to try and build a fanbase and stream on twitch for a living.
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When you say CPM - that's clicks per minute? Does that mean you only paid if people click the ad, or is that additional income over someone just viewing the ad?
Overall I am surprised at how little money there is to be made - if the top streamer is only making $2500 a month - that means that a lot of people aren't making much money out of it. It really seems like now that Twitch has established itself as the market leader (probably running at a loss or little profits for the last few years), they are now reducing the quality of their service and how much they pay streamers - in order to maximize profits.
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On December 10 2013 13:20 Drinksarlot wrote:
When you say CPM - that's clicks per minute? Does that mean you only paid if people click the ad, or is that additional income over someone just viewing the ad?
Overall I am surprised at how little money there is to be made - if the top streamer is only making $2500 a month - that means that a lot of people aren't making much money out of it. It really seems like now that Twitch has established itself as the market leader (probably running at a loss or little profits for the last few years), they are now reducing the quality of their service and how much they pay streamers - in order to maximize profits.
CPM = cost per 1000 ad impressions.
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On December 10 2013 13:20 Drinksarlot wrote:
When you say CPM - that's clicks per minute? Does that mean you only paid if people click the ad, or is that additional income over someone just viewing the ad?
Overall I am surprised at how little money there is to be made - if the top streamer is only making $2500 a month - that means that a lot of people aren't making much money out of it. It really seems like now that Twitch has established itself as the market leader (probably running at a loss or little profits for the last few years), they are now reducing the quality of their service and how much they pay streamers - in order to maximize profits.
CPM = Cost Per Mille (Thousand)
It's basically the de facto standard for all advertising nowadays, where your revenue is paid for every 1000 impressions (and usually set by a whole ton of background metrics and marketing estimates). It's generally a more measurable system than the alternatives, which are flat sponsorships or Cost Per Impression.
And from the sounds of what Destiny has said, compared to what others have said across the last three years, it doesn't sound like Twitch has changed their metrics at all.
And $2500 a month might sound low, but for ~2k-4k viewers at a time you really can't expect numbers to be that high.
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EG EG baby baby baby!
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Russian Federation604 Posts
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EG gotta hire Destiny to get that streaming trinity.
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Didn't see Innovation's stream If someone has a VOD please tell me :D
Btw great work as always !
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Just dropping by to say thank you, always an interesting read
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I am not teamless, I represent ESFXTV|FXO, fix plz thx
again in top50! :D
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On December 10 2013 21:15 HappyZerGling wrote:I am not teamless, I represent ESFXTV|FXO, fix plz thx again in top50! :D
FXO?
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On December 10 2013 12:28 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 12:23 BlackVelvet wrote:On December 10 2013 12:14 Destiny wrote:On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer? None of this can be substantiated without input from Twitch.TV, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. When you're trying to determine how much money someone makes by running commercials on Twitch, the "viewer hour" (V*H) is the most important figure. Every time you run a commercial, you show 1 advertisement to every person watching your stream. That means that it's technically more valuable to stream to 100 people for 10 hours than it is to stream to 500 people for 1 hours. 500 people x 6 commercials x 1 hour (assuming no one runs adblock, you run 6 commericals per hour, and the ad-fill is 100%) = 3,000 commercials shown. Multiply that by your CPM and divide by 1k and you get your theoretical ad revenue. Say you have 3CPM, 3 x 3,000 commercials shown/1000 = $3. Say you show 100 people 6 ads/hour over 10 hours, that means you've shown 6,000 commercials, or twice as many, so your revenue would be doubled, to $6. This is all theoretical because you could run more or less ads an hour, there will be people using adblock, and the ad-fill is never 100%. So using that information, we can use my last month's revenue to make some guesses for other people's revenues. Estimated ad revenue (November): $2,551.80 Looking at the list of viewer hours, you can see that Dragon has less than a third of the V/H that I do. If you divide our viewer hours, you get a fraction, and you multiply that by my ad revenue and you can probably -estimate- that Dragon received about $767.11 last month. Grubby would have received a bit less than that, Catz about 3/4 of that, MaximusBlack a bit less than that, etc...etc... Hopefully in seeing these numbers you can see why a lot of people are pushing the donation model a lot harder. The streaming revenue has severely declined over the past couple of years, so I can't imagine anyone making a living streaming these days without finding other ways to significantly supplement their income. Let me know if you need any more insight! I assume that's not even including your subscriber income? Pretty impressive what you've done in that regard, and the Destiny.gg website. Yeah, exploring other revenue streams is important for me. I have my subscriptions that I manage on my website, the money I get from building people computers, the personal sponsorships I have (Feenix, Ting, DollarShaveClub), and the passive income I earn via my Youtube, my Amazon Affiliate Network and my Google Adsense.
Do you get anything from Twitch vods, or is it better to have vods on Youtube from an advertising revenue perspective?
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Poland3748 Posts
On December 10 2013 12:37 PcaKes wrote:
Edit - I guess Dima is a bad example in there, let's say Massan/Avilo to get someone with hours closer to yours.
Keep in mind that living in some countries is a lot cheaper and while 1000$/month may look bad in Canada, in Ukraine that's actually decent amount of money. Based on this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_oblasts_and_territories_by_salary the average salary in Kiev - the richest region in a country - is equivalent to 600 bucks. With 1000$, you're well above average. If you add sponsorships to that, I guess Dimaga is in pretty decent shape.
That's also what Funn1k mentioned in an interview - that what they are paying him in Na'Vi may be good money in Ukraine, but he is from Germany.
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PainUser 405 hours........
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Poland3748 Posts
On December 10 2013 22:33 DinosaurPoop wrote:
PainUser 405 hours........
He is practicing hard.
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Psy started streaming? That's awesome!
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On December 10 2013 23:02 DavoS wrote:
Psy started streaming? That's awesome!
Psy's greatest legacy will always be his role as catalyst for the "who's artosis" video.
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On December 10 2013 21:18 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 21:15 HappyZerGling wrote:I am not teamless, I represent ESFXTV|FXO, fix plz thx again in top50! :D FXO?
Yes.
On November 17 2013 14:52 HappyZerGling wrote:
From November, 1 I am representing ESFXTV|FXO. It's a new e-sports platform sponsored by FXOpen. They have a Dota2 squad Power Ranger, and at the moment I am the only one in Starcraft2 squad, so it's a personal sponsorship for now.
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Painuser over 400 hours. What a friggin beast.
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On December 10 2013 22:45 nimdil wrote:He is practicing hard.
is he still diamond ??
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On December 10 2013 13:20 Drinksarlot wrote:
When you say CPM - that's clicks per minute? Does that mean you only paid if people click the ad, or is that additional income over someone just viewing the ad?
Overall I am surprised at how little money there is to be made - if the top streamer is only making $2500 a month - that means that a lot of people aren't making much money out of it. It really seems like now that Twitch has established itself as the market leader (probably running at a loss or little profits for the last few years), they are now reducing the quality of their service and how much they pay streamers - in order to maximize profits.
Note that the top streamers in this list are only Starcraft 2 streamers. There are many other streamers on Twitch, of course, and especially the League of Legends guys get >20.000 viewers on an average day. Even without any actual numbers, you can easily guess that these guys are making pretty good money from that. I wouldn't say that Twitch is trying to starve out its streamers. You simply have to be pretty darn popular to make a living out of playing video games.
On December 10 2013 21:15 HappyZerGling wrote:I am not teamless, I represent ESFXTV|FXO, fix plz thx again in top50! :D
Thanks! Fixed now.
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I love looking at these graphs to see that Starcraft 2 is still at being watched at a stable level. And yay for PsY for making the list.
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On December 10 2013 21:40 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 12:28 Destiny wrote:On December 10 2013 12:23 BlackVelvet wrote:On December 10 2013 12:14 Destiny wrote:On December 04 2013 00:04 Salient wrote:
How much money do the players get per viewer? None of this can be substantiated without input from Twitch.TV, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. When you're trying to determine how much money someone makes by running commercials on Twitch, the "viewer hour" (V*H) is the most important figure. Every time you run a commercial, you show 1 advertisement to every person watching your stream. That means that it's technically more valuable to stream to 100 people for 10 hours than it is to stream to 500 people for 1 hours. 500 people x 6 commercials x 1 hour (assuming no one runs adblock, you run 6 commericals per hour, and the ad-fill is 100%) = 3,000 commercials shown. Multiply that by your CPM and divide by 1k and you get your theoretical ad revenue. Say you have 3CPM, 3 x 3,000 commercials shown/1000 = $3. Say you show 100 people 6 ads/hour over 10 hours, that means you've shown 6,000 commercials, or twice as many, so your revenue would be doubled, to $6. This is all theoretical because you could run more or less ads an hour, there will be people using adblock, and the ad-fill is never 100%. So using that information, we can use my last month's revenue to make some guesses for other people's revenues. Estimated ad revenue (November): $2,551.80 Looking at the list of viewer hours, you can see that Dragon has less than a third of the V/H that I do. If you divide our viewer hours, you get a fraction, and you multiply that by my ad revenue and you can probably -estimate- that Dragon received about $767.11 last month. Grubby would have received a bit less than that, Catz about 3/4 of that, MaximusBlack a bit less than that, etc...etc... Hopefully in seeing these numbers you can see why a lot of people are pushing the donation model a lot harder. The streaming revenue has severely declined over the past couple of years, so I can't imagine anyone making a living streaming these days without finding other ways to significantly supplement their income. Let me know if you need any more insight! I assume that's not even including your subscriber income? Pretty impressive what you've done in that regard, and the Destiny.gg website. Yeah, exploring other revenue streams is important for me. I have my subscriptions that I manage on my website, the money I get from building people computers, the personal sponsorships I have (Feenix, Ting, DollarShaveClub), and the passive income I earn via my Youtube, my Amazon Affiliate Network and my Google Adsense. Do you get anything from Twitch vods, or is it better to have vods on Youtube from an advertising revenue perspective?
Unless something changed, Twitch pays you for vod views. However, I believe YouTube pays more/has more exposure, so more advantageous to go there if you have a partnered account.
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Glad to see PsY streaming again. I doubt he'll get picked up by a team as he's not really a pro player anymore (not sure if he ever was) but he was a good personality on Vile and Quantic.
He can be kind of crude though, so I can understand a team not picking him up.
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On December 11 2013 01:59 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 22:45 nimdil wrote:On December 10 2013 22:33 DinosaurPoop wrote:
PainUser 405 hours........ He is practicing hard. is he still diamond ??
I watched his stream earlier today and he was diamond, but it looked like a new account.
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Im always amazed that destiny can hold so many viewers given how many hours he streams
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Never been a fan of Destiny but impressive numbers. More than 3 times as many viewer hours as the second. Really hard worker it seems.
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On December 11 2013 02:11 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 13:20 Drinksarlot wrote:
When you say CPM - that's clicks per minute? Does that mean you only paid if people click the ad, or is that additional income over someone just viewing the ad?
Overall I am surprised at how little money there is to be made - if the top streamer is only making $2500 a month - that means that a lot of people aren't making much money out of it. It really seems like now that Twitch has established itself as the market leader (probably running at a loss or little profits for the last few years), they are now reducing the quality of their service and how much they pay streamers - in order to maximize profits. Note that the top streamers in this list are only Starcraft 2 streamers. There are many other streamers on Twitch, of course, and especially the League of Legends guys get >20.000 viewers on an average day. Even without any actual numbers, you can easily guess that these guys are making pretty good money from that. I wouldn't say that Twitch is trying to starve out its streamers. You simply have to be pretty darn popular to make a living out of playing video games. Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 21:15 HappyZerGling wrote:I am not teamless, I represent ESFXTV|FXO, fix plz thx again in top50! :D Thanks! Fixed now.
why did you not fix my team (first comment in this thread? tt)
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On December 11 2013 09:34 KnowMe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 02:11 Conti wrote:On December 10 2013 13:20 Drinksarlot wrote:
When you say CPM - that's clicks per minute? Does that mean you only paid if people click the ad, or is that additional income over someone just viewing the ad?
Overall I am surprised at how little money there is to be made - if the top streamer is only making $2500 a month - that means that a lot of people aren't making much money out of it. It really seems like now that Twitch has established itself as the market leader (probably running at a loss or little profits for the last few years), they are now reducing the quality of their service and how much they pay streamers - in order to maximize profits. Note that the top streamers in this list are only Starcraft 2 streamers. There are many other streamers on Twitch, of course, and especially the League of Legends guys get >20.000 viewers on an average day. Even without any actual numbers, you can easily guess that these guys are making pretty good money from that. I wouldn't say that Twitch is trying to starve out its streamers. You simply have to be pretty darn popular to make a living out of playing video games. On December 10 2013 21:15 HappyZerGling wrote:I am not teamless, I represent ESFXTV|FXO, fix plz thx again in top50! :D Thanks! Fixed now. why did you not fix my team (first comment in this thread? tt)
Because I can get easily distracted. >.>
Sorry! I probably wrote down somewhere to do it the next day and then forgot about it. Fixed it now.
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On December 04 2013 03:36 eurTsItniH wrote:
Thanks for this! Glad to see player streams doing better.
I think that is the case for a few but overall numbers are down.
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Why wasn't creatoeprime recorded? He streamed few times with a few hundred veiwers.
Also I don't wanna be rude but what's up with painuser. He was top 200 wol and he's playing 12 hrs a day and still diamond? Is he Streaming while sleeing too?
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On December 12 2013 12:41 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
Why wasn't creatoeprime recorded? He streamed few times with a few hundred veiwers.
Also I don't wanna be rude but what's up with painuser. He was top 200 wol and he's playing 12 hrs a day and still diamond? Is he Streaming while sleeing too?
I don't know him at all from WOL but I watched his stream a couple times recently because his name sparked my curiosity. He was playing really strangely. His builds were just thrown together without much thought, he was not doing anything that is being done by the pros with the current meta. I saw him play TvP where he was just turtling with bio getting nothing done at all. It was sad to see that the toss was playing like a terran should (aggressively in the mid game) and he was playing like a toss. He was staying in games that I would have left knowing they were over...
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QXC @ 420 viewers 8D. Thats awesome!
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Holy, when WCS isn't sucking up absolutely every second of prime streaming time streamers actually start doing better in terms of viewership. Who'd a thunk that?
Also, Nony's been doing a great job streaming. He's been quite entertaining.
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Thanks so much! These are always great reads at the beginning of each month and I look forward to them! Quick sidenote, Psy plays a lot of games outside of SC2, especially hearthstone atm so not sure if you want to factor that into consideration. I'm sure the same applies to many other players but since you said you were unfamiliar with him I thought I'd let you know.
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On December 12 2013 12:41 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
Why wasn't creatoeprime recorded? He streamed few times with a few hundred veiwers.
According to my data Creator had an average viewership of 309 in November, with a peak of 719, so he didn't make it into the list.
On December 12 2013 13:59 Yorkie wrote:
Thanks so much! These are always great reads at the beginning of each month and I look forward to them! Quick sidenote, Psy plays a lot of games outside of SC2, especially hearthstone atm so not sure if you want to factor that into consideration. I'm sure the same applies to many other players but since you said you were unfamiliar with him I thought I'd let you know.
Thanks! As long as he uses the TL.net interface to show which game he's playing, everything should be fine in that regard.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/top%2050%202013%2011.png)
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/top%2050%202013%2011x.png)
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8028950/TL/GSTL%20ATC%2011.png)
