EPTWoongjin_sOs and the greatest story never told - Page 5
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Extenz
Italy822 Posts
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hipo
France482 Posts
Unexpected, maybe... but it was the best possible end for WCS 2013. sOs fighting! | ||
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Niteblade_
Canada292 Posts
On November 23 2013 03:25 chairmobile wrote: Sure, he plays to win with cheese and weirdness. I did not say for a moment that he has no right to cheese, or that players should play for things other than winning. I just said I don't find such wins impressive or entertaining, and that they aren't the mark of a champion like MVP (who occasionally does use cheese/weird builds, but not all the time and not as a replacement for mechanics/micro/tactics). I suppose you prefer shitty games you can catch on silver NA to intense micro battles between players like Maru and Dear. Makes perfect sense to me. You sound like your in love with jaedong and are crushed that he got beat by a toss, pretty badly at that. Anyway, I would like to refute your claim of "cheese". Cannon rushing a zerg is not ccheese. I'm pretty sure you never watched wol in 2012/2013 (early) so I'll explain some things to you. Most of the zvp at this time revolved around ffe (forge first) and 14 pool before hatch openings. The reason was simple: forge first allowed a protoss to defend against early ling openings (which were designed to keep protons honest instead of them going nexus fist), while pool before hatch became the norm to more easily hold off canon rushes which were used to prevent a zerg from being able to 3 hatch before pool every game with no worries. Now, eventually towards the end of wol toss stared doing nexus first or die most of the time because they could never beat z on even term and zerg figured out how to 3 hatch anyways (just had to be vigilant and build second hatch at 3rd and then deal with canons at 2nd). This trend naturally continued into hots. It became so normal that every game. Played out 3 hatch vs nexus first. (slightly oversimplification, but you get the point, or maybe you don't because you seem dumb as shit) Now, what sos did vs jaedong was brilliant. He re-winded the meta and canon rushed to keep jaedong honest. Jaedong wasn't prepared for this, and thus it put him in disadvantages position because he didn't react properly. If he had gone 14 pool before hatch, he would've been on even footing. But he didn't, and sos took advantage of that to mess up jaedong game plan and then play out his advantage. That'd why it was brilliant, and not cheesy at all. People calling that cheese is just ladder hate. It has a genuine place vs z. That substantiated enough for you? (btw that goes for everyone saying canons were cheesy, just ignore the dumb as shit part, that's for chair only) Edit: fucking mobile adding random words and letters.... User was warned for this post | ||
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esReveR
United States567 Posts
His series against Jaedong at Blizzcon was NOT amazing or inspiring. What he did was out-think Jaedong, the same way MVP out-thinks his opponents in finals. He chose the right order of builds on the correct maps, and won the tournament. Yes, it was smart play, but he's always been this good. Why does it take winning a tournament for people to recognize top-level players? Answer: Fair-weather fickle fans only watch the final and ignore everything leading up to it. Why? Because they only want to jump on the bandwagon of the winner, and drop him when he loses the next tournament for the next new winner... Please, just pick a player (or players) and stick with them through the highs and lows. | ||
NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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invisigoat
184 Posts
Game 1: Alright i will admit it was impressive because he should have died so OK at least he gets some respect Game 2: This game just hurt my head. Cannon rush into phoenix with just constantly walking zealots into the main? It just looked disgusting IMO Game 3: Hidden base but JD still wins? That just shows weakness. Game 4: Immortal timing? I can understand throwing that one in but its not gonna give you a lot of respect. Game 5: Macro win....fine but at this point he was in JD head....nevertheless respect was gained. Overall if it weren't for that second game I probably would have given sOs a pretty decent amount of respect, but I must ask did he really deserve to be champion? I think not. | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On November 23 2013 06:41 invisigoat wrote: Although I have been playing protoss as of late and, yes, sOs is champion, the amount of respect I have for him is minimal. I just can't really support him after the series against JD Game 1: Alright i will admit it was impressive because he should have died so OK at least he gets some respect Game 2: This game just hurt my head. Cannon rush into phoenix with just constantly walking zealots into the main? It just looked disgusting IMO Game 3: Hidden base but JD still wins? That just shows weakness. Game 4: Immortal timing? I can understand throwing that one in but its not gonna give you a lot of respect. Game 5: Macro win....fine but at this point he was in JD head....nevertheless respect was gained. Overall if it weren't for that second game I probably would have given sOs a pretty decent amount of respect, but I must ask did he really deserve to be champion? I think not. Games cannot be summed up like that. It is about so many little choices and things sOs did. He dictated the entire series. Many moments of clutch holds, great micro and unexpected moves. Marginalizing the series by summarizing a few events in each game into a 10 word description isn't a good way to explain sOs or his games. | ||
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Thorin
601 Posts
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Ventris
Germany1226 Posts
Overall if it weren't for that second game I probably would have given sOs a pretty decent amount of respect, but I must ask did he really deserve to be champion? I think not. Yes. Yes he did. He stepped over the bodies of a lot of excellent players to get to the finals and trashed Jaedong (who just fell apart in the last games) 4:1 with some excellent builds and choices. Mission accomplished. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
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zeratul_jf
United States808 Posts
On November 23 2013 06:48 Black Gun wrote: the whole discussion about sos and whether he is as great a player as his blizzcon title indicates is soooo hypocritical. mvp, due to his wrist problems, was way outmatched in his 2012 s2 gsl run in terms of micro and macro. but he was strategically superior to his opposition and used this advantage to basically cheese out protoss after protoss. the parallels to sos are mind-boggling. and guess what? this very title run is what finally made mvp immortal and elevated fan worship to a level never seen before. so whats the difference? is it simply the fact that mvp was already a fan favorite and had already won titles beforehand? Your last sentence is why people love Mvp. He had already proven that he was a macro/micro/engagement beast, so when his wrists started to die, and he still found a way to win people are like he is a genius. He is physically in bad shape and he still wins through the other aspect of the game thats amazing. However, people(not me) are not happy that sos won through pure strategy because he hasn't shown that he can dominate players with straight up macro/micro/multitask/awesome engagements, but instead just think of strategies that mess up his opponent. So now he is forever tainted as a cheeser and weird builds guy even if he plays macro games and win. I'm sure people are jsut gonna be like well he can be super greedy because people expect weird crap when playing this guy, but they dont understand thats part of being a good player, that you can play all styles and people need to take that into account. | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
people saying sos dont have fans because hes not playing interesting LawL. hes the most innovative player in sc2 by far  sad.. | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On November 23 2013 06:41 invisigoat wrote: Although I have been playing protoss as of late and, yes, sOs is champion, the amount of respect I have for him is minimal. I just can't really support him after the series against JD Game 1: Alright i will admit it was impressive because he should have died so OK at least he gets some respect Game 2: This game just hurt my head. Cannon rush into phoenix with just constantly walking zealots into the main? It just looked disgusting IMO Game 3: Hidden base but JD still wins? That just shows weakness. Game 4: Immortal timing? I can understand throwing that one in but its not gonna give you a lot of respect. Game 5: Macro win....fine but at this point he was in JD head....nevertheless respect was gained. Overall if it weren't for that second game I probably would have given sOs a pretty decent amount of respect, but I must ask did he really deserve to be champion? I think not. I guess if you look at it that way without taking into account the previous matches that each player had in that tournament, then yeah, sOs looks pretty bad. But if you look at how much cheese and off-the-wall play JD threw in against his previous opponents that tournament, sOs probably saw that JD was playing with a very abusive style, and decided to get the jump on him by making him eat his own pie. If you look at it in this way, the win by sOs was hilariously ironic and extremely well played. | ||
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Neemi
Netherlands656 Posts
On November 23 2013 06:48 Black Gun wrote: the whole discussion about sos and whether he is as great a player as his blizzcon title indicates is soooo hypocritical. mvp, due to his wrist problems, was way outmatched in his 2012 s2 gsl run in terms of micro and macro. but he was strategically superior to his opposition and used this advantage to basically cheese out protoss after protoss. the parallels to sos are mind-boggling. and guess what? this very title run is what finally made mvp immortal and elevated fan worship to a level never seen before. so whats the difference? is it simply the fact that mvp was already a fan favorite and had already won titles beforehand? Mvp is Terran, sOs is Protoss. Oversimplifying aside, I do feel that the Protoss is the race that relies most on composition. Take game 2 from the finals for instance, where he showed this Zealot + Phoenix composition. Roach/Hydra or Infestors would completely demolish this composition, but because JD didn't have any of those units there was completely nothing he could do anymore except die slowly. With T and Z, it feels more like it isn't over because the other player could set up an amazing engagement and gets on top again, while P seems to do this a lot less relying more on composition to either win or lose outright. There are exceptions like Dear and Rain who just play super solid, and sOs is definitely capable of this as well but it wasn't that which was most apparent. From a Zerg perspective: Game 1 - JD had a massive bank but he couldn't engage and walk up a ramp into sOs's base because Protoss Game 2 was incredibly frustrating as from the start it felt like JD was at the mercy of protoss mechanics. If he dedicated to killing the cannons by building roaches he could just get flattened by void rays, if he made zerglings he would get killed by zealots, if he made mutalisks he would get killed by phoenix, and because of those cannons there was no real way for him to get to infestors. Great plan by sOs, but it didn't make people respect his play. Game 3 - Even with hidden base JD takes this Game 4 - Immortal all-in, and it so happened to be a composition win again Game 5 - Now this game was actually just a straight up win (proving he is capable of this) but by this point the "damage" was done. The situations of game 1, 2 and 4 couldn't have happened if JD played a zerg or terran. There's no way for either to hide a few key units that suddenly changes the game if you don't have anything against them and it's never THAT hard to walk up a ramp against either. Warp-in is Protoss only as well. As sOs is a protoss player playing to win I feel he maximized on the potential of the race and played really well, but he appeals more to a thinking (wo)man than a casual viewer. From a strategy standpoint it's beautiful and what he does is definitely appreciated, but JD micro'ing his zerglings to kill a robo bay or coming in with a V-wing or spreading like crazy are instant-WOW moments. I'll put it like this: my mom who knows nothing of starcraft watched the final moments of JD vs Dear as well and she instantly appreciated how smart it was what JD did after I explained what he did, but I doubt "sOs juist built the better units" invokes the same reaction. It's a direct consequence of the Protoss race I guess, sOs played his games out brilliantly to win the finals and he has my respect for that. He deserved to win that day, but I completely do not have the feeling that he can repeat his success many times over. When Innovation won, he won with mechanical skill and you know he could kill anyone with that. When Maru won, he won with his micro (and preparation!) and you know he could kill anyone with that (well, except Dear, but that was later). When Dear won, it seemed like he was the most solid player ever. With Mvp, people hated his guts during the run and shortly after that as well, but the incredible finals, the story of a broken man and him winning 4 titles eclipsed that. I think what definitely cemented him as a fan favourite was his S4 run though, taking out zergs and Rain in epic fashion before delivering yet another great final. | ||
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covetousrat
2109 Posts
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laerteis
United States78 Posts
If we're going to give him attention, let's make him into a villain for cheesing out the more deserving player. Remember, cannon rushing is only okay for foreigners.  | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On November 23 2013 03:35 chairmobile wrote: That's bullshit. I dislike protoss in general, including Dear, but I would be an absolute idiot to ignore Dear's flawless defenses, crisp macro and multitasking, and amazing engagements / tactics. Stop trying to generalize the community as just hating protoss. Nobody hates sOs - he's just not very impressive in his play compared to the rest of blizzcon. My reaction to soulkey being beaten by dear was, "oh well, dear played better". My reaction to sOs - JD was "fucking really man? _sOs_ is the global champion after that shit final?" Not bullshit at all you know why I can say that? Because I was there in the crowd at the WCS Finals in Toronto and the crowd response was practically the same. Generalizing? Do you read the forums let alone go to events? Because you don't fool me. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
On November 23 2013 08:24 laerteis wrote: As a fan, I found sOs winning very inconvenient and unsatisfying. Fortunately I had mostly forgotten about him until you had to come along and write this article. If we're going to give him attention, let's make him into a villain for cheesing out the more deserving player. Remember, cannon rushing is only okay for foreigners. well, imho its too early to assess sOs's (oO) potential. back in broodwar, there was this accomplished and loved fan favorite bisu who got cheesed out of a semifinals by a young kid. the young kid was instantly booed and hated. people thought he would never be able to play solid macro games or be anything special. people thought he would remain a one-hit wonder. now, about 6 years later, this young kid, flash, is known as god, the best bw player of all times and feared in particular for his extremely strong macro games.... i do not particularly like sOs, i only give him very modest amounts of credit for his blizzcon title and i do not think that he will once be known as one of the greats of sc2 history. but at the same time, i wouldnt write him off so quickly. and yes, giving him so little credit does feel hypocritical.... | ||
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AxiomBlurr
786 Posts
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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
In any case, here we are. sOs stands as the WCS 2013 champion, and has forced StarCraft 2 fans around to give him their respect. It's times like these that I...that I... The writer is Stuchio you say? | ||
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