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On October 03 2013 02:40 romanianthunder wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:35 Nebuchad wrote:On October 03 2013 02:25 romanianthunder wrote:On October 03 2013 02:15 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Just to add to that what would you rather watch 2 players that you don't know that are completely even matched that you know coming into the fight and they just duke it out and it be 50% chance of winning or Rooting for an underdog from your hometown that just destroys the competition in a 100 to 1 odds? i do not mind watching underdogs but if the underdogs never win finals in years like in sc2 the interest dies slowy. Do you mean like when Soulkey didn't beat innovation, or when Maru didn't beat Rain? if you would actually pay attention to the context of the discussion | was having you would notice I was reffering to a foreigner underdog vs a korean.Also nice to cut off the part where the last foreigner to win a major tournament was stephano in 2011 with ipl.And btw i actually watched soulkey vs innovation all 7 games live.this is why koreans need to stay in korea.to play against simmilar great players with simmilar training environments and to provide competitive games and competitive series.innovation vs a random foreiner will neve result in the foreigner coming back form 3-0 to win with 4-3.
No I knew exactly what you were saying. I just think you should question yourself for having a problem with it.
Starbuck just beat San in WCS Challenger. I love San, he's by far my favorite player. Should I feel happy that Starbuck won, because he's slovenian and San is korean, when I myself have nothing to do with Slovenia (sorry)? Is the world supposed to be a closer place to me than Korea is?
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How to fix this problem, get rid of WCS and create more tournaments. Increase the number of MLG's, ESL seasons, IEM, GSL seasons, DreamHacks (expand this tournament to other European countries or even to Asian countries - not Korea though) and any other tournament!
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:40 romanianthunder wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:35 Nebuchad wrote:On October 03 2013 02:25 romanianthunder wrote:On October 03 2013 02:15 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Just to add to that what would you rather watch 2 players that you don't know that are completely even matched that you know coming into the fight and they just duke it out and it be 50% chance of winning or Rooting for an underdog from your hometown that just destroys the competition in a 100 to 1 odds? i do not mind watching underdogs but if the underdogs never win finals in years like in sc2 the interest dies slowy. Do you mean like when Soulkey didn't beat innovation, or when Maru didn't beat Rain? if you would actually pay attention to the context of the discussion | was having you would notice I was reffering to a foreigner underdog vs a korean.Also nice to cut off the part where the last foreigner to win a major tournament was stephano in 2011 with ipl.And btw i actually watched soulkey vs innovation all 7 games live.this is why koreans need to stay in korea.to play against simmilar great players with simmilar training environments and to provide competitive games and competitive series.innovation vs a random foreiner will neve result in the foreigner coming back form 3-0 to win with 4-3.
Random korean vs random foreigner will never ever result in this either.
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On October 03 2013 02:37 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:18 romanianthunder wrote:On October 03 2013 02:12 StarStruck wrote:On October 03 2013 02:09 romanianthunder wrote:On October 03 2013 01:58 NovemberstOrm wrote:On October 03 2013 01:56 romanianthunder wrote:On October 03 2013 01:51 braller wrote:On October 03 2013 01:48 romanianthunder wrote:On October 03 2013 01:44 NovemberstOrm wrote:On October 03 2013 01:38 romanianthunder wrote:
[quote]
nope you are incorrect."smart" in this case means trianing in a korean teamhouse and then playing again foreigners who do not have teamhouse or if they do they are not as professional as the korean ones.And none of the koreans who are currently in the wcs na and eu would make it past the group stages in korea:MC,duckdeok,mvp,mma,hyun,polt,byul,hack,oz,apocalypse,hack,heart,forgg,genius,stardust stand exactly 0% chance of passing the group stages of the gsl or osl.This is why they ran form korea in the frst place.They ran not because they were winning anything.They ran once they became washed up. You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you? i did. what does it have to do anything i said? You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah... wrong.because in the season finals you meet weaker players than in the korean wcs where you meet top players from the top korean teams constantly.korea only sends to the season finals a couple of players out of the many good ones.washed up koreans playing in the wcs eu/na usually have good results against themselves and also because they have extensive tournament experience playing in foreign tournaments.Give a foreigner the same shot and they will give the same results.if they are so good they can play in wcs korea where many of them have never won anything in months or even years or maybe never.Oh I forget it is harder to meet the best koreans constantly then once a year, You're just making excuses. nope its true.the only reason you do not notice it is because region lock was never given a chance in sc2 and foreigners never developed/just look at a game which also dominates korea and has region lock:league of legends.KOreans are also seen there as the best in the world and imba and guess what happened at this world championships?Out of the 3 korean teams one could not even make it out of the group stages,beign beaten by european teams and another one finished its group in second place being a chinesse team(albeit they are in the final now).This is what happens when koreans aren't aloud to swarm a tournament.They get only 1 spot in the finals.No total dominance. Okay now that is bullshit. The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. That's why everyone is knocking Dade. In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans. We already seen what the Chinese did to EU and the same thing would have happened if it was NA. The bracket/format for Riot's World's is one of the most ridiculous formats we've ever seen. It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again. "The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. " What type is explanation is that?So only mvp ozone receive the patch the other teams were playing on lol clients with different patches?lol.They had the same playing field and were eliminated by european teams(very good ones actually).and sk the team in the final got defeated twice in the group stages by a chinesse team. "In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans " no it is already antistomp.1 kr team in the finals out of 3 is not a stomp.a stomp is 15 koreans out of 16 players in wcs ranking like sc2 has.that is a stomp. " It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again " the hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages and the millions who will watch the final disagree with you.And i do not even like lol.i do not even watch that thing but they have a much better buit scene than sc2. No. I take it you don't watch LoL? LoL is patched regularly. Certain champs get buffed/nerfed so if your pool of characters is targeted it could have pretty dramatic effects when it comes to the competitive landscape. Dade plays mid and there were only a handful of characters he's accustomed to. When you get those patch notes you have a limited amount of time to figure your shit out-- what's viable to roll mid et cetera. Dade was in an unfortunate position where a lot of his heroes just wouldn't make the cut and this happens to a lot of players. Not just Dade (for example Hai's champ pool was diminished by that patch too -- his champ pool prior was pretty decent but not at world's), so he found himself in a very precarious position and he was dumb enough to say the Korean teams would have no problems against NA/EU/China you name it. He came into World's being too cocky and they got stomped a number of times. As a coach I know it's always important to keep your players in line and likewise Dade bite too much than he could chew. At the end of the day, Dade played terribly. That's why you'd see a lot of people mocking him at the moment. As for Fnatic and the rest of the other teams i.e. C9. They still have a long, long way to go. Hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages? Dude do you even participate in the LoL discussions? I think you're talking out of your ass. Time and time again I see people bring up Riot's format in this section but we really have to question if they take notice to what the LoLers are saying (they tend to only focus on the region locking mechanic) and pay no attention to things like the Wild Card, seedings/placement, etc. A lot of people are unhappy with it. You do not like LoL. I have a hard time believing you actually pay any attention to it as well.
that guy has no idea of lol, Dade got destroyed by nerfs, and He said that SK got owned twice lol, sk lost 1 and it was to the difference between metagames, and if you are a fan of korean scene you will know how hard its from them to move to another meta. (CJentus anyone?  i love ambition but  ) And one korean took the other so. I think in LoL Asia (KR,China) are the stompers :/
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Just to make a comment about this whole underdog / entertainment value thing.
You could make the argument that even back in BW, you could describe it as even worst in this respect because it really was the same couple of players always going on deep in tournaments.
However, people still cheered for all the rest of the players because almost all of them had some unique style to their play that fans could identity them with.
Can you say the same when watching current HotS players? There is a small handful of players you could describe with unique play styles, but on the whole I would argue no. Match after match, there is very little to differentiate them aside from who actually wins. Is this the players fault? Or the game's?
Is this hurting the scene? Viewership keeps dropping, whether that's because of (as many people are saying now) an oversaturation of WCS, or the game truly has become boring to watch.
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I agree that WCS is putting SC2 much more behind in the competitive scene, I hope Blizzard changes in making WCS a separate league.
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Because of WCS, all the foundations have crumbled. If things go like this again next year, then StarCraft 2 teams will be hurt even more."
On October 02 2013 19:38 Grampz wrote:
been saying it all year. WCS is the downfall of sc2. Nothing but turmoil has come.
It is one step further guys.
It isn't just WCS that is hurting SC2 (it was poorly executed), it is Blizzard itself. HOTS hasn't been some vast improvement over WOL. A lot of people thought it was when it was released, but that was only because the metagame was unstable and the game seemed dynamic.
I think back to 2011, the days when I waited for ladders games. To go back to that time, I would pay good money. Anything seemed viable (this was at High Masters/low GM). You wouldn't know how the game was going to play out at all. As a Protoss player playing a Terran you might face a variation of the 1-1-1 or 1-1-2 possibly with an expand, a CC first, triple CC opening, 2 rax pressure expand, 3 rax all-in, the variety is what made the game interesting. Also Protoss had a lot of neat all-ins too, the game was very dynamic. And watching a good TvZ match between two high level players, was downright amazing.
Today, you load up TvP and you get standard Bio play nearly every game. It is really boring for me. Terran can't/won't attack because the MSC is too strong, and Protoss all-ins are increasingly risky. Might as well start everyone with two bases... and watching TvZ is pretty dull in comparison to 2011 WOL... Widow Mines are no replacement for Siege Tanks for spectators...
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Wow, who'd have thought spreading Koreans throughout every region and crushing the smaller leagues would impact the SC2 eSports scene? Obviously not Blizzard...
I suppose now we get to watch the non energy drink and non PC peripheral sponsors pull support from every team gradually as they realize that their exposure is limited to less events. Congratulations on fucking everything up, Blizz. MLG and OGN don't care about SC2 anymore. That says A LOT for the NA scene, at least. The moment the foreign scene loses its EU events, this game is officially fucked. What a travesty. I feel for people like Choya, who try to make a career around SC2 after their career as a player loses momentum. There's no longevity even for support staff at this point, as much as we talk about players' careers being short.
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On October 03 2013 02:54 a176 wrote:
Just to make a comment about this whole underdog / entertainment value thing.
You could make the argument that even back in BW, you could describe it as even worst in this respect because it really was the same couple of players always going on deep in tournaments.
However, people still cheered for all the rest of the players because almost all of them had some unique style to their play that fans could identity them with.
Can you say the same when watching current HotS players? There is a small handful of players you could describe with unique play styles, but on the whole I would argue no. Match after match, there is very little to differentiate them aside from who actually wins. Is this the players fault? Or the game's?
Is this hurting the scene? Viewership keeps dropping, whether that's because of (as many people are saying now) an oversaturation of WCS, or the game truly has become boring to watch.
Your definitely right on the money about BW which its hard to compare the 2 because BW was and always will be the heart and pinnacle of eSports.
My thoughts are there to give it an added dynamic or needed boost to possibly revive viewership which BW never needed because of how amazing the game was. With sc2 it needs like an edge which I think this would give it to it.
Trust me though you are 100% correct I mean nothing to take away from your post by saying this I just simply am Trying to give a suggestion that could possibly make an even though 1 dimentional game playwise to give people something to cheer for 
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The man who brought FXO to Choya, FXO Boss says that the team did little to make the sponsors happy. Yet people blame Blizzard. This community is so predictable at times.
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I really do wish there was just a dominant Korean league which foreigners could try at (and usually fail). It was such a superior competitive system, in my opinion.
As for Choya/FXO's situation, it's nice to see them sticking it out, sponsor or not. While I don't particularly care for any of the players, I do wish the best for them!
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On October 03 2013 02:47 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:40 romanianthunder wrote:On October 03 2013 02:35 Nebuchad wrote:On October 03 2013 02:25 romanianthunder wrote:On October 03 2013 02:15 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Just to add to that what would you rather watch 2 players that you don't know that are completely even matched that you know coming into the fight and they just duke it out and it be 50% chance of winning or Rooting for an underdog from your hometown that just destroys the competition in a 100 to 1 odds? i do not mind watching underdogs but if the underdogs never win finals in years like in sc2 the interest dies slowy. Do you mean like when Soulkey didn't beat innovation, or when Maru didn't beat Rain? if you would actually pay attention to the context of the discussion | was having you would notice I was reffering to a foreigner underdog vs a korean.Also nice to cut off the part where the last foreigner to win a major tournament was stephano in 2011 with ipl.And btw i actually watched soulkey vs innovation all 7 games live.this is why koreans need to stay in korea.to play against simmilar great players with simmilar training environments and to provide competitive games and competitive series.innovation vs a random foreiner will neve result in the foreigner coming back form 3-0 to win with 4-3. No I knew exactly what you were saying. I just think you should question yourself for having a problem with it. Starbuck just beat San in WCS Challenger. I love San, he's by far my favorite player. Should I feel happy that Starbuck won, because he's czech and San is korean, when I myself have nothing to do with the czech republic? Is the world supposed to be a closer place to me than Korea is?
no i should not question myself for wanting to see europeans play in europe,americans playing in na and asians in asia.It is happening in all major sports and esports.i like to see asians play against asians in asia,europeans against europeans in europe and north americans against north americans in north america.How hard can it be .and stop playing the race card.if you wanna see koreans there is wcs korea.Btw i mostly watch wcs korea since it is the highest level of play instead of koreans rolfstomping in na and europe foreigners who do not benefit form their training facilities.in wcs europe there should be europeans(well according to me not to blizzard )
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United States4409 Posts
On October 03 2013 03:05 Plansix wrote:
The man who brought FXO to Choya, FXO Boss says that the team did little to make the sponsors happy. Yet people blame Blizzard. This community is so predictable at times.
Don't forget all the people who want Blizzard out of esports (while completely ignoring they've been funneling money into GOM since release).
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Dang.. Pretty bummed about the stark reality of SC2 crumbling. Is it inevitable for a game to go into such a decline naturally? I think credit should be due to all these organizations and tournaments for vitalizing the game. I'm not sure it's the WCS System. The WCS System was installed at a time when SC2 was just beginning it's snowball descent, so to pin this on them; well, that's not right either.
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On October 03 2013 01:58 Aeceus wrote:
Stuff would of been much worse if Blizzard had not made WCS, I will tell you that :/ Stop bitching
Indeed, this is 1,8 million dollars extra in pro players pockets, I really dont see how its bad in any way. Sure, this chould hurt some other tournaments im sure of it. But then you chould argue that Dreamhack or MLG is hurting the industry too.
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On October 03 2013 02:48 MrFUBAR wrote:
How to fix this problem, get rid of WCS and create more tournaments. Increase the number of MLG's, ESL seasons, IEM, GSL seasons, DreamHacks (expand this tournament to other European countries or even to Asian countries - not Korea though) and any other tournament!
Those tournaments would begin to lose a sense of novelty and prestige if you did that, so hell no..
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 03 2013 03:08 romanianthunder wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:47 Nebuchad wrote:On October 03 2013 02:40 romanianthunder wrote:On October 03 2013 02:35 Nebuchad wrote:On October 03 2013 02:25 romanianthunder wrote:On October 03 2013 02:15 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Just to add to that what would you rather watch 2 players that you don't know that are completely even matched that you know coming into the fight and they just duke it out and it be 50% chance of winning or Rooting for an underdog from your hometown that just destroys the competition in a 100 to 1 odds? i do not mind watching underdogs but if the underdogs never win finals in years like in sc2 the interest dies slowy. Do you mean like when Soulkey didn't beat innovation, or when Maru didn't beat Rain? if you would actually pay attention to the context of the discussion | was having you would notice I was reffering to a foreigner underdog vs a korean.Also nice to cut off the part where the last foreigner to win a major tournament was stephano in 2011 with ipl.And btw i actually watched soulkey vs innovation all 7 games live.this is why koreans need to stay in korea.to play against simmilar great players with simmilar training environments and to provide competitive games and competitive series.innovation vs a random foreiner will neve result in the foreigner coming back form 3-0 to win with 4-3. No I knew exactly what you were saying. I just think you should question yourself for having a problem with it. Starbuck just beat San in WCS Challenger. I love San, he's by far my favorite player. Should I feel happy that Starbuck won, because he's czech and San is korean, when I myself have nothing to do with the czech republic? Is the world supposed to be a closer place to me than Korea is? no i should not question myself for wanting to see europeans play in europe,americans playing in na and asians in asia.It is happening in all major sports and esports.i like to see asians play against asians in asia,europeans against europeans in europe and north americans against north americans in north america.How hard can it be .and stop playing the race card.if you wanna see koreans there is wcs korea.Btw i mostly watch wcs korea since it is the highest level of play instead of koreans rolfstomping in na and europe foreigners who do not benefit form their training facilities.in wcs europe there should be europeans(well according to me not to blizzard )
So according to you, if Korean happens to live in Europe (for whatever reason), he should not play this game at all competitively :D?
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We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans?
No.
Was BW better because it was better balanced?
Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race.
Was BW better because the games looked different?
No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage in SC2? Yes, we could. As a community, we just chose not to. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
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On October 03 2013 02:47 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:40 romanianthunder wrote:On October 03 2013 02:35 Nebuchad wrote:On October 03 2013 02:25 romanianthunder wrote:On October 03 2013 02:15 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Just to add to that what would you rather watch 2 players that you don't know that are completely even matched that you know coming into the fight and they just duke it out and it be 50% chance of winning or Rooting for an underdog from your hometown that just destroys the competition in a 100 to 1 odds? i do not mind watching underdogs but if the underdogs never win finals in years like in sc2 the interest dies slowy. Do you mean like when Soulkey didn't beat innovation, or when Maru didn't beat Rain? if you would actually pay attention to the context of the discussion | was having you would notice I was reffering to a foreigner underdog vs a korean.Also nice to cut off the part where the last foreigner to win a major tournament was stephano in 2011 with ipl.And btw i actually watched soulkey vs innovation all 7 games live.this is why koreans need to stay in korea.to play against simmilar great players with simmilar training environments and to provide competitive games and competitive series.innovation vs a random foreiner will neve result in the foreigner coming back form 3-0 to win with 4-3. No I knew exactly what you were saying. I just think you should question yourself for having a problem with it. Starbuck just beat San in WCS Challenger. I love San, he's by far my favorite player. Should I feel happy that Starbuck won, because he's czech and San is korean, when I myself have nothing to do with the czech republic? Is the world supposed to be a closer place to me than Korea is?
Starbuck is slovenian.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:
We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans?
No.
Was BW better because it was better balanced?
Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race.
Was BW better because the games looked different?
No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage? Yes, we could. We just don't. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
Yay, it has happened, someone with common sense!
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EPT
