On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage? Yes, we could. We just don't. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
Yay, it has happened, someone with common sense!
But it can't be said that WCS in its curernt form didnt limit some opportunities for players. Its good but its not the best implementation. WCS will be tweaked for next year I am sure of it and I can only hope it opens more opportunities for more players.
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage in SC2? Yes, we could. As a community, we just chose not to. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
I don't think BW allowed foreigners to win against koreans more than in Starcraft 2 it was much worse back than in BW afaik.
On October 03 2013 02:54 a176 wrote: Just to make a comment about this whole underdog / entertainment value thing.
You could make the argument that even back in BW, you could describe it as even worst in this respect because it really was the same couple of players always going on deep in tournaments.
However, people still cheered for all the rest of the players because almost all of them had some unique style to their play that fans could identity them with.
Can you say the same when watching current HotS players? There is a small handful of players you could describe with unique play styles, but on the whole I would argue no. Match after match, there is very little to differentiate them aside from who actually wins. Is this the players fault? Or the game's?
Is this hurting the scene? Viewership keeps dropping, whether that's because of (as many people are saying now) an oversaturation of WCS, or the game truly has become boring to watch.
Those players still got exposure via Pro League and through publication. They were on Korean Television. There needs to be some sort of return on the investment. As for tournament viewership. It isn't dropping. I don't know why you guys keep bringing that one up because it isn't true. It's not just up to the tournament organizers to help promote and give exposure to your players. The teams have to find ways of doing it themselves as well. How else do you expect to make your sponsors happy? You need to generate more exposure.
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage in SC2? Yes, we could. As a community, we just chose not to. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
I don't think BW allowed foreigners to win against koreans more than in Starcraft 2 it was much worse back than in BW afaik.
Well, the foreigners had very limited opportunities. Most of the time it would be us playing them on their smurf accounts via ladders on private servers because the only real shot we had at them was via WCG. That's what happens when competitive gaming is just starting to take shape. You won't have as many opportunities and the real opportunity was in Korea.
People are forgetting one thing when they keep talking about how region locking would have been better. The koreans on korean teams aren't the ones winning all the money in wcs na and eu. It's the koreans on the foreign teams that are the ones that are playing outside of korea.
If foreign teams didn't have so many koreans, then you wouldn't need a region lock as the korean teams don't have the money to travel. The foreign teams themselves doomed wcs to be filled with koreans by having so many of them, so while foreigners all cry about the koreans taking all the money, they should realize the foreign teams with koreans are the cause of that.
On October 03 2013 01:38 romanianthunder wrote: [quote]
nope you are incorrect."smart" in this case means trianing in a korean teamhouse and then playing again foreigners who do not have teamhouse or if they do they are not as professional as the korean ones.And none of the koreans who are currently in the wcs na and eu would make it past the group stages in korea:MC,duckdeok,mvp,mma,hyun,polt,byul,hack,oz,apocalypse,hack,heart,forgg,genius,stardust stand exactly 0% chance of passing the group stages of the gsl or osl.This is why they ran form korea in the frst place.They ran not because they were winning anything.They ran once they became washed up.
You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
wrong.because in the season finals you meet weaker players than in the korean wcs where you meet top players from the top korean teams constantly.korea only sends to the season finals a couple of players out of the many good ones.washed up koreans playing in the wcs eu/na usually have good results against themselves and also because they have extensive tournament experience playing in foreign tournaments.Give a foreigner the same shot and they will give the same results.if they are so good they can play in wcs korea where many of them have never won anything in months or even years or maybe never.Oh I forget it is harder to meet the best koreans constantly then once a year,
You're just making excuses.
nope its true.the only reason you do not notice it is because region lock was never given a chance in sc2 and foreigners never developed/just look at a game which also dominates korea and has region lock:league of legends.KOreans are also seen there as the best in the world and imba and guess what happened at this world championships?Out of the 3 korean teams one could not even make it out of the group stages,beign beaten by european teams and another one finished its group in second place being a chinesse team(albeit they are in the final now).This is what happens when koreans aren't aloud to swarm a tournament.They get only 1 spot in the finals.No total dominance.
Okay now that is bullshit. The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. That's why everyone is knocking Dade. In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans. We already seen what the Chinese did to EU and the same thing would have happened if it was NA. The bracket/format for Riot's World's is one of the most ridiculous formats we've ever seen. It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again.
"The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. " What type is explanation is that?So only mvp ozone receive the patch the other teams were playing on lol clients with different patches?lol.They had the same playing field and were eliminated by european teams(very good ones actually).and sk the team in the final got defeated twice in the group stages by a chinesse team.
"In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans " no it is already antistomp.1 kr team in the finals out of 3 is not a stomp.a stomp is 15 koreans out of 16 players in wcs ranking like sc2 has.that is a stomp.
" It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again "
the hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages and the millions who will watch the final disagree with you.And i do not even like lol.i do not even watch that thing but they have a much better buit scene than sc2.
No. I take it you don't watch LoL? LoL is patched regularly. Certain champs get buffed/nerfed so if your pool of characters is targeted it could have pretty dramatic effects when it comes to the competitive landscape. Dade plays mid and there were only a handful of characters he's accustomed to. When you get those patch notes you have a limited amount of time to figure your shit out-- what's viable to roll mid et cetera. Dade was in an unfortunate position where a lot of his heroes just wouldn't make the cut and this happens to a lot of players. Not just Dade (for example Hai's champ pool was diminished by that patch too -- his champ pool prior was pretty decent but not at world's), so he found himself in a very precarious position and he was dumb enough to say the Korean teams would have no problems against NA/EU/China you name it. He came into World's being too cocky and they got stomped a number of times. As a coach I know it's always important to keep your players in line and likewise Dade bite too much than he could chew. At the end of the day, Dade played terribly. That's why you'd see a lot of people mocking him at the moment. As for Fnatic and the rest of the other teams i.e. C9. They still have a long, long way to go.
Hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages? Dude do you even participate in the LoL discussions? I think you're talking out of your ass. Time and time again I see people bring up Riot's format in this section but we really have to question if they take notice to what the LoLers are saying (they tend to only focus on the region locking mechanic) and pay no attention to things like the Wild Card, seedings/placement, etc. A lot of people are unhappy with it. You do not like LoL. I have a hard time believing you actually pay any attention to it as well.
man you are spreading many lies
First of all your first paragraph is utterly nonsense since lol is a team game and the most important aspect is teamwork not necessarly individual play.There are many instances where korean lanes lose against foreign lanes.For examples foreigners have very good ad carries that sometimes win in cs against their korean competitors(for example wildturtle was always up in cs in his games against asian teams) but they still loose due to bad teamplay(oh and now i remember the fnatic ad carry having something like 10 kills above the najin sword ad carry in the quaters of finals last game and fanatic still losing the game due to bad teamwork).Generally koreans win easily due to much better team work not individual lanes failing or carrying.blaming one guy for the lose or victory is solo q mentality.this is why the korean pros in interviews talk only about teamwork and helping the team than individual skill sets.
" Hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages? " people.my bad.i am tired .
" Dude do you even participate in the LoL discussions? I think you're talking out of your ass. Time and time again I see people bring up Riot's format in this section but we really have to question if they take notice to what the LoLers are saying (they tend to only focus on the region locking mechanic) and pay no attention to things like the Wild Card, seedings/placement, etc. A lot of people are unhappy with it. "
yes i participate in a lot of lol discussions.What you are refering to is a very vocal minority on the lol reddit that is usually overshadowed by the hundreds of messages congratulating riot for a good show.Also these messages are usually countered by other messages explaining why entertainment value is important to the scene.Yes it would probably be more fair if kt rolster or frost would be at worlds instead of the 0-6 wildcard teams who lose every game but in the end the viewership only go up the more foreigners are present.The only major crticism i saw was the players not being in soundproof boths and c9 playing to few games and being eliminated too soon.Also the biggest criticism riot receives is lack of international tournaments.I haven't seen that many people asking for moar koreans.More koreans is strictly the mentality of some sc2 fans
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage? Yes, we could. We just don't. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
Yay, it has happened, someone with common sense!
But it can't be said that WCS in its curernt form didnt limit some opportunities for players. Its good but its not the best implementation. WCS will be tweaked for next year I am sure of it and I can only hope it opens more opportunities for more players.
A The harsh reality is that not everybody can make it as a pro or team. The success of players and teams is not solely in the hands of Blizzard.
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage in SC2? Yes, we could. As a community, we just chose not to. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
I don't think BW allowed foreigners to win against koreans more than in Starcraft 2 it was much worse back than in BW afaik.
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage in SC2? Yes, we could. As a community, we just chose not to. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
I don't think BW allowed foreigners to win against koreans more than in Starcraft 2 it was much worse back than in BW afaik.
That's what he meant.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans?
On October 03 2013 01:44 NovemberstOrm wrote: [quote] You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
wrong.because in the season finals you meet weaker players than in the korean wcs where you meet top players from the top korean teams constantly.korea only sends to the season finals a couple of players out of the many good ones.washed up koreans playing in the wcs eu/na usually have good results against themselves and also because they have extensive tournament experience playing in foreign tournaments.Give a foreigner the same shot and they will give the same results.if they are so good they can play in wcs korea where many of them have never won anything in months or even years or maybe never.Oh I forget it is harder to meet the best koreans constantly then once a year,
You're just making excuses.
nope its true.the only reason you do not notice it is because region lock was never given a chance in sc2 and foreigners never developed/just look at a game which also dominates korea and has region lock:league of legends.KOreans are also seen there as the best in the world and imba and guess what happened at this world championships?Out of the 3 korean teams one could not even make it out of the group stages,beign beaten by european teams and another one finished its group in second place being a chinesse team(albeit they are in the final now).This is what happens when koreans aren't aloud to swarm a tournament.They get only 1 spot in the finals.No total dominance.
Okay now that is bullshit. The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. That's why everyone is knocking Dade. In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans. We already seen what the Chinese did to EU and the same thing would have happened if it was NA. The bracket/format for Riot's World's is one of the most ridiculous formats we've ever seen. It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again.
"The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. " What type is explanation is that?So only mvp ozone receive the patch the other teams were playing on lol clients with different patches?lol.They had the same playing field and were eliminated by european teams(very good ones actually).and sk the team in the final got defeated twice in the group stages by a chinesse team.
"In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans " no it is already antistomp.1 kr team in the finals out of 3 is not a stomp.a stomp is 15 koreans out of 16 players in wcs ranking like sc2 has.that is a stomp.
" It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again "
the hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages and the millions who will watch the final disagree with you.And i do not even like lol.i do not even watch that thing but they have a much better buit scene than sc2.
No. I take it you don't watch LoL? LoL is patched regularly. Certain champs get buffed/nerfed so if your pool of characters is targeted it could have pretty dramatic effects when it comes to the competitive landscape. Dade plays mid and there were only a handful of characters he's accustomed to. When you get those patch notes you have a limited amount of time to figure your shit out-- what's viable to roll mid et cetera. Dade was in an unfortunate position where a lot of his heroes just wouldn't make the cut and this happens to a lot of players. Not just Dade (for example Hai's champ pool was diminished by that patch too -- his champ pool prior was pretty decent but not at world's), so he found himself in a very precarious position and he was dumb enough to say the Korean teams would have no problems against NA/EU/China you name it. He came into World's being too cocky and they got stomped a number of times. As a coach I know it's always important to keep your players in line and likewise Dade bite too much than he could chew. At the end of the day, Dade played terribly. That's why you'd see a lot of people mocking him at the moment. As for Fnatic and the rest of the other teams i.e. C9. They still have a long, long way to go.
Hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages? Dude do you even participate in the LoL discussions? I think you're talking out of your ass. Time and time again I see people bring up Riot's format in this section but we really have to question if they take notice to what the LoLers are saying (they tend to only focus on the region locking mechanic) and pay no attention to things like the Wild Card, seedings/placement, etc. A lot of people are unhappy with it. You do not like LoL. I have a hard time believing you actually pay any attention to it as well.
man you are spreading many lies
First of all your first paragraph is utterly nonsense since lol is a team game and the most important aspect is teamwork not necessarly individual play.
No you're wrong. While team work is more important on average than individual skill it would be wrong to say individual skill can't influence the game too much. Dade was horrible due to his champs being nerfed and MVP could not carry him to victory and dade was the biggest reason they lost. Then you have uzi carrying royal on his back into the finals.
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage in SC2? Yes, we could. As a community, we just chose not to. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
I don't think BW allowed foreigners to win against koreans more than in Starcraft 2 it was much worse back than in BW afaik.
On October 03 2013 01:48 romanianthunder wrote: [quote]
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
wrong.because in the season finals you meet weaker players than in the korean wcs where you meet top players from the top korean teams constantly.korea only sends to the season finals a couple of players out of the many good ones.washed up koreans playing in the wcs eu/na usually have good results against themselves and also because they have extensive tournament experience playing in foreign tournaments.Give a foreigner the same shot and they will give the same results.if they are so good they can play in wcs korea where many of them have never won anything in months or even years or maybe never.Oh I forget it is harder to meet the best koreans constantly then once a year,
You're just making excuses.
nope its true.the only reason you do not notice it is because region lock was never given a chance in sc2 and foreigners never developed/just look at a game which also dominates korea and has region lock:league of legends.KOreans are also seen there as the best in the world and imba and guess what happened at this world championships?Out of the 3 korean teams one could not even make it out of the group stages,beign beaten by european teams and another one finished its group in second place being a chinesse team(albeit they are in the final now).This is what happens when koreans aren't aloud to swarm a tournament.They get only 1 spot in the finals.No total dominance.
Okay now that is bullshit. The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. That's why everyone is knocking Dade. In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans. We already seen what the Chinese did to EU and the same thing would have happened if it was NA. The bracket/format for Riot's World's is one of the most ridiculous formats we've ever seen. It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again.
"The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. " What type is explanation is that?So only mvp ozone receive the patch the other teams were playing on lol clients with different patches?lol.They had the same playing field and were eliminated by european teams(very good ones actually).and sk the team in the final got defeated twice in the group stages by a chinesse team.
"In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans " no it is already antistomp.1 kr team in the finals out of 3 is not a stomp.a stomp is 15 koreans out of 16 players in wcs ranking like sc2 has.that is a stomp.
" It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again "
the hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages and the millions who will watch the final disagree with you.And i do not even like lol.i do not even watch that thing but they have a much better buit scene than sc2.
No. I take it you don't watch LoL? LoL is patched regularly. Certain champs get buffed/nerfed so if your pool of characters is targeted it could have pretty dramatic effects when it comes to the competitive landscape. Dade plays mid and there were only a handful of characters he's accustomed to. When you get those patch notes you have a limited amount of time to figure your shit out-- what's viable to roll mid et cetera. Dade was in an unfortunate position where a lot of his heroes just wouldn't make the cut and this happens to a lot of players. Not just Dade (for example Hai's champ pool was diminished by that patch too -- his champ pool prior was pretty decent but not at world's), so he found himself in a very precarious position and he was dumb enough to say the Korean teams would have no problems against NA/EU/China you name it. He came into World's being too cocky and they got stomped a number of times. As a coach I know it's always important to keep your players in line and likewise Dade bite too much than he could chew. At the end of the day, Dade played terribly. That's why you'd see a lot of people mocking him at the moment. As for Fnatic and the rest of the other teams i.e. C9. They still have a long, long way to go.
Hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages? Dude do you even participate in the LoL discussions? I think you're talking out of your ass. Time and time again I see people bring up Riot's format in this section but we really have to question if they take notice to what the LoLers are saying (they tend to only focus on the region locking mechanic) and pay no attention to things like the Wild Card, seedings/placement, etc. A lot of people are unhappy with it. You do not like LoL. I have a hard time believing you actually pay any attention to it as well.
man you are spreading many lies
First of all your first paragraph is utterly nonsense since lol is a team game and the most important aspect is teamwork not necessarly individual play.
No you're wrong. While team work is more important on average than individual skill it would be wrong to say individual skill can't influence the game too much. Dade was horrible due to his champs being nerfed and MVP could not carry him to victory and dade was the biggest reason they lost. Then you have uzi carrying royal on his back into the finals.
whaat?uzzi had an entire team protecting him during teamfights.he is good no doubt about it but looking closely he would not do much without a well coordinated and well farmed team.all asian pros and some foreign pros that i have seen talk mostly about objectives and teamwork and how not to be a show off and not make dumb individual plays and yet you come here and tell me that an entire team lost because of 1 guy and the other won because of another .
On October 03 2013 01:44 NovemberstOrm wrote: [quote] You didn't watch the last 2 season finals did you?
i did. what does it have to do anything i said?
You said that none of the koreans in WCS NA or EU would make it past the group stages in the GSL, but several GSL players were outperformed by WCS NA/EU players at Season Finals. Also, Taeja is probably the best player in the world right now and he plays in WCS NA and not in a teamhouse, so yeah...
wrong.because in the season finals you meet weaker players than in the korean wcs where you meet top players from the top korean teams constantly.korea only sends to the season finals a couple of players out of the many good ones.washed up koreans playing in the wcs eu/na usually have good results against themselves and also because they have extensive tournament experience playing in foreign tournaments.Give a foreigner the same shot and they will give the same results.if they are so good they can play in wcs korea where many of them have never won anything in months or even years or maybe never.Oh I forget it is harder to meet the best koreans constantly then once a year,
You're just making excuses.
nope its true.the only reason you do not notice it is because region lock was never given a chance in sc2 and foreigners never developed/just look at a game which also dominates korea and has region lock:league of legends.KOreans are also seen there as the best in the world and imba and guess what happened at this world championships?Out of the 3 korean teams one could not even make it out of the group stages,beign beaten by european teams and another one finished its group in second place being a chinesse team(albeit they are in the final now).This is what happens when koreans aren't aloud to swarm a tournament.They get only 1 spot in the finals.No total dominance.
Okay now that is bullshit. The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. That's why everyone is knocking Dade. In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans. We already seen what the Chinese did to EU and the same thing would have happened if it was NA. The bracket/format for Riot's World's is one of the most ridiculous formats we've ever seen. It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again.
"The recent patch and Samsung didn't show up to play. " What type is explanation is that?So only mvp ozone receive the patch the other teams were playing on lol clients with different patches?lol.They had the same playing field and were eliminated by european teams(very good ones actually).and sk the team in the final got defeated twice in the group stages by a chinesse team.
"In any case it's going to be a stomp for the Koreans " no it is already antistomp.1 kr team in the finals out of 3 is not a stomp.a stomp is 15 koreans out of 16 players in wcs ranking like sc2 has.that is a stomp.
" It's really, really bad when it comes to formatting so please don't bring that up again "
the hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages and the millions who will watch the final disagree with you.And i do not even like lol.i do not even watch that thing but they have a much better buit scene than sc2.
No. I take it you don't watch LoL? LoL is patched regularly. Certain champs get buffed/nerfed so if your pool of characters is targeted it could have pretty dramatic effects when it comes to the competitive landscape. Dade plays mid and there were only a handful of characters he's accustomed to. When you get those patch notes you have a limited amount of time to figure your shit out-- what's viable to roll mid et cetera. Dade was in an unfortunate position where a lot of his heroes just wouldn't make the cut and this happens to a lot of players. Not just Dade (for example Hai's champ pool was diminished by that patch too -- his champ pool prior was pretty decent but not at world's), so he found himself in a very precarious position and he was dumb enough to say the Korean teams would have no problems against NA/EU/China you name it. He came into World's being too cocky and they got stomped a number of times. As a coach I know it's always important to keep your players in line and likewise Dade bite too much than he could chew. At the end of the day, Dade played terribly. That's why you'd see a lot of people mocking him at the moment. As for Fnatic and the rest of the other teams i.e. C9. They still have a long, long way to go.
Hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages? Dude do you even participate in the LoL discussions? I think you're talking out of your ass. Time and time again I see people bring up Riot's format in this section but we really have to question if they take notice to what the LoLers are saying (they tend to only focus on the region locking mechanic) and pay no attention to things like the Wild Card, seedings/placement, etc. A lot of people are unhappy with it. You do not like LoL. I have a hard time believing you actually pay any attention to it as well.
man you are spreading many lies
First of all your first paragraph is utterly nonsense since lol is a team game and the most important aspect is teamwork not necessarly individual play.There are many instances where korean lanes lose against foreign lanes.For examples foreigners have very good ad carries that sometimes win in cs against their korean competitors(for example wildturtle was always up in cs in his games against asian teams) but they still loose due to bad teamplay(oh and now i remember the fnatic ad carry having something like 10 kills above the najin sword ad carry in the quaters of finals last game and fanatic still losing the game due to bad teamwork).Generally koreans win easily due to much better team work not individual lanes failing or carrying.blaming one guy for the lose or victory is solo q mentality.this is why the korean pros in interviews talk only about teamwork and helping the team than individual skill sets.
" Hundreds of thousands of players who watch the group stages? " people.my bad.i am tired .
" Dude do you even participate in the LoL discussions? I think you're talking out of your ass. Time and time again I see people bring up Riot's format in this section but we really have to question if they take notice to what the LoLers are saying (they tend to only focus on the region locking mechanic) and pay no attention to things like the Wild Card, seedings/placement, etc. A lot of people are unhappy with it. "
yes i participate in a lot of lol discussions.What you are refering to is a very vocal minority on the lol reddit that is usually overshadowed by the hundreds of messages congratulating riot for a good show.Also these messages are usually countered by other messages explaining why entertainment value is important to the scene.Yes it would probably be more fair if kt rolster or frost would be at worlds instead of the 0-6 wildcard teams who lose every game but in the end the viewership only go up the more foreigners are present.The only major crticism i saw was the players not being in soundproof boths and c9 playing to few games and being eliminated too soon.Also the biggest criticism riot receives is lack of international tournaments.I haven't seen that many people asking for moar koreans.More koreans is strictly the mentality of some sc2 fans
Dude you need to stop. We already called you out for your bullshit. You couldn't get more generic and for those who actually watch can see it right away because of your oversimplification. Dade was a complete non-factor in the team game. His mechanics were completely off with the champs he rolled. As for WT, HM. Gee I wonder why Fnatic looked so far behind Royal. Hm.. It was the tale of the tape, so please stahp.
I don't recall seeing you in LoL discussion let alone the LRs because if you actually read what people were saying then you wouldn't be spouting out half the shit you say. Funny because I was never referring to the LoL Reddit community. If you go through my last 100 or so posts you would see me state many times that I pay NO ATTENTION to reddit at all unless someone quotes something on these forums. It's irrelevant. It's amazing how many people you run into in LoL who know about the competitive scene and guess what. Even in those casual conversations they will poke fun at Dade or laugh at how bad GG.EU and Mineski did. They all say the same thing: those teams were out of place. There are a lot of things Riot could do to fix the system and a lot of that remains to be seen. With that said, I bid you adieu.
On October 03 2013 03:13 Nebuchad wrote: We are going to need more precision; since SC2 is criticized for being everything it is and not being everything it's not, it's going to be hard to know how BW was better.
Was BW better because it allowed foreigners to often beat koreans? No. Was BW better because it was better balanced? Mostly no, let's say in the least not always. But you know, we could "see the skill" of the people who advanced, so it was less about race. Was BW better because the games looked different? No. But you know, we could "see the difference" between the games despite the compositions being the same, so it was less about variety.
Ultimately BW was better because everyone who watched BW were actual fans. When you're a fan, you tune down what you don't like, you give the whole thing positive light => hence the nostalgia now. Could we see the skill of the people who advance when their race has the advantage? Yes, we could. We just don't. Could we see the difference between the games despite the compositions being the same? Insofar as we could do it in BW, then we can also do it in SC2. We just don't.
I enjoy SC2. It kills me that every time I browse a forum I have to read people telling me, directly or indirectly, how my taste is shit. When I remember SC2 in a few years, will I remember the games, or will I remember all the doom and hate I see in here? I'm honestly not sure, and I'm fairly certain that if I didn't love the game as much as I do, it would act as a repellant for me.
So yeah, if that's what it takes, downsize SC2.
Yay, it has happened, someone with common sense!
But it can't be said that WCS in its curernt form didnt limit some opportunities for players. Its good but its not the best implementation. WCS will be tweaked for next year I am sure of it and I can only hope it opens more opportunities for more players.
A The harsh reality is that not everybody can make it as a pro or team. The success of players and teams is not solely in the hands of Blizzard.
No but when the opportunity for a player to expose themselves goes away or becomes less then it is in part a result of Blizzard. Hell, I like blizzard, I think they are moving in the right direction i just think WCS was a little forced and might have come too quickly and they needed more time to organize it. WCS as it is has to a certain extent negatively impacted the NA scene with a lot of people just giving up because their chances are so small. If you want to keep the game going you need fresh blood, for new faces there must be an opportunity - simple as that. I think if WCS offered more opportunities by relaxing the scheduling issues then it could let other tournaments run along side WCS even if small to offer some sort of opportunity.
I don't think SC2 is dying I think it exploded beyond its means when KeSPA joined for Korea and it needs to shrink back a bit. I think WCS allowing Koreans to play in EU and NA took some opportunities away from NA players more than EU players and also took away the aspect of WCS last year of hometown heroes playing in regional matches like WCG but on a better stage with more production and money.
In fact I think SC2 would have fared better in Korea if Blizzard had put their WCS money into Proleague where more people get a chance to play more often and let GSL/OSL continue as they were previously.
By romanianthunder's logic, I should consider Taeja, Polt and Hyun "washed up koreans". Dang, what a sensational feeling then ! I'm probably cheering for underdogs in every matches they play when I cheer for them.
" Dude you need to stop. We already called you out for your bullshit " there is only 2 of you while most of the pros claim bad teamwork of mvp and a general bad team mentality led to their defeat.I would rather take their word for it than yours thank you.
" As for WT, HM. Gee I wonder why Fnatic looked so far behind Royal. " so fnatic looked behind because of their most fed member and the only one who could pose a thrreat to the chinesse?lol
" Funny because I was never referring to the LoL Reddit community. If you go through my last 100 or so posts you would see me state many times that I pay NO ATTENTION to reddit at all unless someone quotes something on these forums. It's irrelevant "
So let me get this straight.You claim to participate in lol discussions yet you do not participate in the largest lol community in the world )))))).Mind equals blown.Thats like saying you participate in sc2 discussions yet you do not access teamliquid or reddit sc2.What sense does that make.tl is probably one of the smallest lol communities around.your elitism is patological.
"With that said, I bid you adieu. " Good bye.But please next time add something omre constructive to the discussion and leave your elitism at home thank you
@ragnarok
if they are so good why aren't they in wcs korea.Oh I forgot its easier to look good against foreigners then accumulate lots of tournament experience and obtain a couple of good results 3 times a year at world finals than to play against highly trained koreans in korea all year round.
On October 03 2013 03:41 romanianthunder wrote: " Dude you need to stop. We already called you out for your bullshit " there is only 2 of you while most of the pros claim bad teamwork of mvp and a general bad team mentality led to their defeat.I would rather take their word for it than yours thank you.
" As for WT, HM. Gee I wonder why Fnatic looked so far behind Royal. " so fnatic looked behind because of their most fed member and the only one who could pose a thrreat to the chinesse?lol
" Funny because I was never referring to the LoL Reddit community. If you go through my last 100 or so posts you would see me state many times that I pay NO ATTENTION to reddit at all unless someone quotes something on these forums. It's irrelevant "
So let me get this straight.You claim to participate in lol discussions yet you do not participate in the largest lol community in the world )))))).Mind equals blown.Thats like saying you participate in sc2 discussions yet you do not access teamliquid or reddit sc2.What sense does that make.tl is probably one of the smallest lol communities around.your elitism is patological.
"With that said, I bid you adieu. " Good bye.But please next time add something omre constructive to the discussion and leave your elitism at home thank you
If you fail to understand where I was going with the 'Gee I wonder why Fnatic looked so far behind Royal?' which is a good way to test your cred then there is no helping you. Your ass is grass.
There are more things than Reddit. I talk to quite a lot of people and I don't just use TL LoL to find my answers so good luck going down that road. Add something more constructive? My God you are a hypocrite for someone who says they don't even like LoL yet pretends to know more than he knows. :V Funny guy.
Wow Blizzard better open their eyes soon, but I'm afraid it's probably already too late. Destiny was pretty spot on, SC2 won't eve survive as it is until LotV. At least BW had a very robust Korean scene. SC2 is headed for a dead KR scene and a lackluster foreign one. I'd give SC2 another year at best.
On October 03 2013 03:41 romanianthunder wrote: @ragnarok
if they are so good why aren't they in wcs korea.Oh I forgot its easier to look good against foreigners then accumulate lots of tournament experience and obtain a couple of good results 3 times a year at world finals than to play against highly trained koreans in korea all year round.
Because you know, there are around 100 pro-gamers in korea and at least 50 of 'em are capable of winning series against each and certainly capable of stomping 95% of foreigners. But you know, there is such thing as Korean qualifiers, and you can ask any korean how hard it is to pass one. Hell, Soulkey did not pass it, received seed to Code S and went straight to Code S Ro8 and 4-0'ing Life in it. I know, your passionate Romanian heart may not compute it, but in Korea alone there are about as many players (and even more ones, that can win online cup, playing cross server) capable of winning foreigner tourney, than in world.
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